I had my British Embassy Income letter rejected by immigration for my annual extension of stay - Ban

[NoshowJones]

There's this thing again about us supposed to be "guests" in this country. I have said it time and time again on this forum. We are not "guests" in this country, the OPs experience is further proof of this. If you had a guest in your house, would you expect to have any sort of power over them? Would you treat them according to your moods?

[lounger]

Amazed no one has produced a comment from the uk embassy.

I got my uk embassy letter in october and the following week read in a pattaya newspaper that the uk embassy was discontinuing this service. The uk embassy was reported to have said uk citizens requiring income certification were recommended to go to another country's embassy for income certification!!!!!

The article finished by suggesting the service may still be available at the Uk embassy. So clearly there is disinformation here.

There was no suggestion that the service withdrawel was applicable only to sub branches. It clearly said it was the Uk embassy in Bangkok.

I totally sympathise with any Thai immigration official who may have read this article.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[PlastikbinLina]

One of the recent changes here in Phuket is any person providing a letter from an Embassy or consul must also provide evidence of the source of the funds.e.g. pension fund annual income statement etc. The supporting documentary evidence has to show regular income. There are people, for example, who get regular income from their work as consultants outside of Thailand and can retire here provided they show evidence of regular income. Did the officer ask you where the money came from in your UK Bank account?

[NoshowJones]

....which is why Citizens of "Stat Dec" countries often get a hard time each year.

Not true, I have never had a problem and done several.

I have had lots of good experience with Immigration officials, the biggest majority of them are decent people, as are the biggest majority of Thai people, yes, even the BiB. But one time I was accused of being on 25 days overstay, I told him I was not, but kept being pleasant to him, I said in a nice manner, that I would like to see someone else. He took me to an office next door, asked me to sit down, then he returned after only about two mins, handed me my passport etc, the told me I could now go, and said to me "you return in 90 days" Personally, I think he was hoping I would pass him some tea money.

[NoshowJones]

I hate to be the one to gently remind you that you DO need a favour from immigration officers - you are an uninvited guest in their country. They are enpowered to interpret the rules as they see fit. As I said above - they are interviewing applicants - not rubber-stamping them.

No we do not need favours and they do not give us any. The fact that feel they can interpret the rules as they see is not fair, legal or just. We should have confidence in them applying the rules as they are, and not to suit their every whim and mood, or to try and do us a 'favour' via a bribe.

Excellent post, apart from the "guest" in their country.

[laolover88]

Agree with Rawhod. Presume you are a Brit as it is Yorkshire Bank. CM immigration can be a bit fussy if the letter from the consul is not very recent. However I give original P60s and DWP statements and Nationwide Bank statements showing monthly incomes, marriage certificate and wife and childrens ID cards and house book to the CM consul. She writes letter confirming address, marital status, monthly and annual income and source. I give CM immigration the original letter from UK consul with embossed stamp. They are only interested in Income. Never had any problem over 10 years.

[evadgib]

One of the recent changes here in Phuket is any person providing a letter from an Embassy or consul must also provide evidence of the source of the funds.e.g. pension fund annual income statement etc. The supporting documentary evidence has to show regular income. There are people, for example, who get regular income from their work as consultants outside of Thailand and can retire here provided they show evidence of regular income. Did the officer ask you where the money came from in your UK Bank account?

Consular letter confirming pension/income for Thai Immigration

We can issue a standard letter addressed to Thai Immigration confirming your pension/income to support the renewal/extension of your retirement visa. This letter is a Thai requirement and the granting of the visa is at the sole discretion of the Thai Immigration authorities not the British Embassy.

Please ensure the pension/income evidence you provide is in a form that is simple and easy to understand and contains the essential financial amounts that are required for inclusion in the letter. According to Thai Immigration, your pension currency should not be converted into Thai Baht.

The fee for this letter is payable by cash or credit card if applying in person or by postal order for the exact amount if applying by post. The letter can be collected in person or sent to you by express mail with an additional postage and packaging cost of 100 Baht. Please note that fees can change without prior notice.

If you are unable to visit us in person, please mail us your request stating the total pension amount received monthly/yearly and enclosing the required documents. Please make the postal order (available at Post Offices) payable to the “British Embassy” and to be cashed at “Nana Post Office Bangkok 10112”.

https://www.gov.uk/notarial-and-documentary-services-guide-for-thailand

Edited December 2, 2013 by evadgib

[Bpuumike]

My British Embassy letters have only ever stated income and never the name of my bank.

Perhaps that caused some confusion.

[pmarlin]

The US Embassy affidavit states that you "affirm that I receive US$ __ every month" and that should IMM request you would need to show a deposit in some bank of that amount every month.

I think copies of a pension statement, Like Social Security, etc. would be enough.

[JLCrab]

The US Embassy affidavit states that you "affirm that I receive US$ __ every month" and that should IMM request you would need to show a deposit in some bank of that amount every month.

I think copies of a pension statement, Like Social Security, etc. would be enough.

The above was a response to Post #57 wherein the gent was suggesting that equivalent 12 x 65k baht funds in a bank account somewhere could in theory qualify him to justly make the affirmation on the US affidavit. I was then suggesting that he would have no proof if requested by Thai IMM to corroborate that statement.

[corkythecat]

Tried to read all posts saw nothing about you being barred for the future. I find this most extraordinary.

Sent from my WT-PAD013 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[jb5music]

So that's all you have to go through to not use a Visa service? Not bad...

[spambot]

Remember, you are in Thailand. It is entirely possible that the officer realized s/he had made a mistake, but could not lose face. As a consequence, you are left with an entirely ridiculous fire drill to run through.

Give it a couple of months, then go back and speak only to the director of the office. Ask specifically what you will need to renew your visa and what documentation. Have them look up your file on-screen. Play confused and innocent. Since you are right and they are wrong, diplomatically ask them for a checklist (keep for your next visit) of how you can renew your visa. Avoid any nuance of the face that was lost or the person who f**ked up.

You will probably get a good response.

Good info - I like the thinking here !

The big challenge however is to get to the person because of the queuing system - An officer looks at your paperwork first prior to meeting and deciding to issue a ticket for you - With no paperwork and just questions to be asked you are sent back to reception where the forms are issued and they do not have access to the applicants onscreen info. Also are not really going to create the kind of authority commitment for next visit to work.

So the real question would be how to get to the right person and around the system....Anyone got a thought here?

[spambot]

From the OP:

Quick overview of the income letter: On the income letter the first three lines typed are to convey my identity and my passport number. The next two lines identify my address in Thailand and the next three lines identify my monthly total with annual total / source of the revenue. This is the part she did not like – Where the wording says

“and has shown us banking statements from Yorkshire bank stating that he receives incomes totalling GBP xxx”

...Just for clarification I showed bank statement with regular deposits and had backup docs to show the sources (rental agreement from service company managing the rental and 5 year bond fixed income). The Embassy did not want to see the sources docs - just the bank statements showing regular income...

I believe it has been a long-standing practice of the British embassy to certify money being deposited in a bank account as income. This method is open to abuse because I can have two bank accounts and for 12 months make monthly remittances of a certain amount from account A to account B, subsequently make these remittances from account B to account A for the next 12 months, repeat indefinitely and thus always have proof of the required amounts of money coming into my account. Yours is the second topic I have seen in recent months where an immigration office did not accept moneys being credited to a bank account as evidence of earnings or income.

Your embassy letter does not state that your Yorkshire bank is paying you income totalling GBP xxx or that you are receiving this income from your Yorkshire bank, but it gave that impression. In fact, the only income, if any, you receive from your bank are interest payments.

Has this type of income letter perhaps been abused by some applicants for extension of stay and immigration has caught on to it? What could you have done and what can others with rental income do to avoid this problem with immigration?

1. Do not give the embassy a copy the bank statements evidencing the deposits to your account. Instead, if the tenants pay the rent directly into your account, obtain and submit affidavits from the tenants; if an estate agent collects the rent and remits it to your account, use an affidavit from this agent.

2. Do not overload the immigration officer with information regarding your income. Start by giving the bare minimum, ie the embassy letter. Only if asked for supporting documents, give the affidavits from the persons or entities who paid you this income. Do not give a statement from the bank into which these monies are paid; it is not evidence of income and may only confuse the officer.

Yes I agree - That's what the impression is given by the letter - But I also did have an estate agent letter of authority to show that they collect the rent and remits it to my account, in essence an affidavit from this agent.Neither the British Embassy nor the immigration were interested in this.

[spambot]

OP, you can ignore it.

They are always doing this type of stuff, finding some type of phony problem and telling you they will let it pass, but "NEXT TIME" make sure you don't do it.

It means nothing. They have done this type of thing to me twice. Once with a minor issue with the letter, and once when they asked me for evidence of my pension. When I showed the lady the pension evidence, she seemed surprised I actually had it, so instead of being able to say, "next time bring in the evidence of the pension," she had to say, "next time show me this evidence, too, when I ask you for the Embassy letter."

My guess is they forgot about it a minute later. Certainly a year later they will not even remember you or this alleged transgression.

Don't worry about it.

Unfortunately they made me sign a statement on my application form to the fact that I would only apply in the future only with an application with deposited funds into a Thai bank method. This form together with all previous years forms are electronically scanned and viewed at every application as part of the (first) process of interview and hence it will be a question that is very prominent.

[spambot]

I have always felt that I am not welcome in this country. Now that the government is under fire I believe that many office will take out their spite on farangs. I have a RP and only have to report every 8 years and pay a fee.

Interesting - How difficult is the process to get this?

[ubonjoe]

I have always felt that I am not welcome in this country. Now that the government is under fire I believe that many office will take out their spite on farangs. I have a RP and only have to report every 8 years and pay a fee.

 

Interesting - How difficult is the process to get this?

It should of been PR which is permanent residency. Which you do not qualify because you are not working here.

[spambot]

For next year you might want to put the whole 800K in a Thai bank at least 90 days before applying for your extension and then try using the income letter first without showing them the bank letter to see what happens and if they reject you based on that notation they put in your records this year then use your bank letter. We all know the rules of the game change from year to year, location to location and officer to officer but that bank letter is always your ace in the hole.

Actually that is good thinking - And a solid suggestion that is a - what to do next - type thinking.

I was thinking that if the OP can afford to do that, just go with the bank letter and forget about the useless Embassy letter that is overpriced and an effort to procure.

Yes I can afford and yes the price of the Embassy letter is overpriced but for me the issue is loss of the income (and risks) of depositing 800K for the seeding time needed to satisfy requirements - together with picking the right time to converted - If I had converted £16k, $24k (800k Baht) 3 months ago prior for seeding at a rate of then it was 48.5 (I know because I needed to top up my Thai account for the seeding process) But if I could do the conversion today I would get a rate around 51.5 = 6% difference which is a loss of £950, $1450 or 47.5K Baht - I want to pick the time when I want to convert my funds at the best rate and earn this extra revenue. So for me the seeding and deposit requirement feels like a tax - I prefer to separate this out and pay the £46 (2.300 Baht) so as to focus upon the best rates which can provide far more value when compared with cost of the letter from the Embassy.

Edited December 2, 2013 by spambot

[spambot]

Looks like you may have had the misfortune to encounter an officer who got out of bed the wrong side that day. But why don't you provide the Embassy with the latest statement(s) from your UK income provider(s) (as I do) instead of from your UK bank? These include gross figures (as distinct from the net figures in your Yorkshire Bank statements), which might make all the difference as to whether or not you need a Kasikorn letter as well.

You might also be strongly advised to be accompanied by a native Thai speaker for future trips to Immigration for extension of stay purposes.

I asked my friendly neighbour, I see her every quarter in some office.

Indeed, the wording on the document provided by the Embassy is the problem.

The bank in the UK declares etc, etc, etc.

Nowadays the imiigration office would like to see the letter from the Embassy accompanied by the document(s) from the pension provider.

Solution?

Next time bring the letter from the Embassy accompanied by the pesnion fund letters.

Why is this?

In fact the Embassy letter does not state the income, but only states what you tell them.

And ratifies your signature.

Same with the letters from the US and Dutch Embassies.

Great post!

Not sure now that because I made the written statement - If this will stay as a condition for next time - Or if I could get it lifted prior to next application with evidence now submitted.

[spambot]

For next year you might want to put the whole 800K in a Thai bank at least 90 days before applying for your extension and then try using the income letter first without showing them the bank letter to see what happens and if they reject you based on that notation they put in your records this year then use your bank letter. We all know the rules of the game change from year to year, location to location and officer to officer but that bank letter is always your ace in the hole.

Actually that is good thinking - And a solid suggestion that is a - what to do next - type thinking.

I was thinking that if the OP can afford to do that, just go with the bank letter and forget about the useless Embassy letter that is overpriced and an effort to procure.

He did not have the money in the bank all he had was a second hand letter saying that he was getting so much money into his bank account every month. What he needed was a letter from his Embassy saying that not a letter from a Thai bank that is only good if you have 800,000 baht in it and it has been there untouched for a period of time.

Also the amount on the letter from the bank must match the amount in your pass book. We had one fellow who got the letter stating he had over 900,000 baht in the account for the correct period of time. They turned him down because he had taken 10,000 baht out after he got the letter. So even though he had in excess of the minimum amount the two did not match and he was denied. He had to get a new letter or put the 10,000 back.

He gave a very detailed account and no where did he mention fulfilling either one of those requirements.

The wording on the income letter seems to be the problem - However I did have the contract from a UK estate agent showing the long term income (dates of payments and payment amounts) and the bond paperwork for fixed income. The UK Embassy did not want to see that paperwork (I present it at the time) and the immigration never requested to see this info I had with me.

[spambot]

Sounds like a confusion over the fact that the embassy letter mentioned a bank that the officer does not know.

Yup - That is a possibility, but unfortunately no one is saying - And really I or anyone else should not be expected to simply guess what the reason might be when faced with a difficult situation at immigration like this.

The embassy letter should only be confirming the amount - not the source.

I suggest you take it up with the embassy.

Immigration officers have absolute power over you - that is just the way it works.

The Embassy states that they issue a standard letter. However, I always ask for the monthly and annual amounts to be stated. There is no requirement for the source to be quoted and has never been stated on my income letters.

Maybe you should have signed the TM7 and written underneath 'Signed under duress'.

Good point!

[spambot]

When i changed from a student visa to a retirement visa a few weeks ago, i showed them my monthly income statements on my Natwest account. They just said " No good" No explanation or anything, so i showed them my BKK statement and all was well. My partner asked what the problem was and they answered " that they didn't know of nat west". Go figure

Mnnnn - That is interesting to know since The Yorkshire bank could have fitted that same issue.

[spambot]

One of the recent changes here in Phuket is any person providing a letter from an Embassy or consul must also provide evidence of the source of the funds.e.g. pension fund annual income statement etc. The supporting documentary evidence has to show regular income. There are people, for example, who get regular income from their work as consultants outside of Thailand and can retire here provided they show evidence of regular income. Did the officer ask you where the money came from in your UK Bank account?

No they did not ask - And this might have cleared up some of the confusion and I would then know what the actual problem was - Since the only line she was saying was "Yorkshire Bank" - And I kept asking and what problem with Yorkshire Bank - And all I got was body language. There is still the grey area of not knowing what needs to be fixed. Was it the name of the bank? - Was it that there was no source behind the bank? - Did she know that this was a bank? or was it something that was entirely different to any of these guesses of the problem on my part.

[jacko45k]

For next year you might want to put the whole 800K in a Thai bank at least 90 days before applying for your extension and then try using the income letter first without showing them the bank letter to see what happens and if they reject you based on that notation they put in your records this year then use your bank letter. We all know the rules of the game change from year to year, location to location and officer to officer but that bank letter is always your ace in the hole.

Actually that is good thinking - And a solid suggestion that is a - what to do next - type thinking.

I was thinking that if the OP can afford to do that, just go with the bank letter and forget about the useless Embassy letter that is overpriced and an effort to procure.

Yes I can afford and yes the price of the Embassy letter is overpriced but for me the issue is loss of the income (and risks) of depositing 800K for the seeding time needed to satisfy requirements - together with picking the right time to converted - If I had converted £16k, $24k (800k Baht) 3 months ago prior for seeding at a rate of then it was 48.5 (I know because I needed to top up my Thai account for the seeding process) But if I could do the conversion today I would get a rate around 51.5 = 6% difference which is a loss of £950, $1450 or 47.5K Baht - I want to pick the time when I want to convert my funds at the best rate and earn this extra revenue. So for me the seeding and deposit requirement feels like a tax - I prefer to separate this out and pay the £46 (2.300 Baht) so as to focus upon the best rates which can provide far more value when compared with cost of the letter from the Embassy.

I always feel that if you live here, keeping 800k baht handy might be a wise thing.

(Medical expenses or such for example...personal experience there).

The £ has been going down for so long before recent times that I was always happy to have it here, along with the better interest rates.

But I can understand caution, if one happens to believe Thailand and it's banks are less stable/ trustworthy than the UK ones.

Edited December 2, 2013 by jacko45k

[spambot]

Interestingly the immigration officer may have researched the ownership of Yorkshire Bank and found it is in fact a subsidiary of National Australia Bank...a little more historical research may then have given her concern as to the origins of your banks funds and therefore by default your income!..joking aside...thanks to all who have contributed to this thread as it raises important points on retirement visas and the possible future changes.

I agree - There is some top class input here.

[spambot]

Agree with Rawhod. Presume you are a Brit as it is Yorkshire Bank. CM immigration can be a bit fussy if the letter from the consul is not very recent. However I give original P60s and DWP statements and Nationwide Bank statements showing monthly incomes, marriage certificate and wife and childrens ID cards and house book to the CM consul. She writes letter confirming address, marital status, monthly and annual income and source. I give CM immigration the original letter from UK consul with embossed stamp. They are only interested in Income. Never had any problem over 10 years.

Maybe the answer is move to CM - Its a thought!

[thailiketoo]

I always feel that if you live here, keeping 800k baht handy might be a wise thing.

(Medical expenses or such for example...personal experience there).

The £ has been going down for so long before recent times that I was always happy to have it here, along with the better interest rates.

But I can understand caution, if one happens to believe Thailand and it's banks are less stable/ trustworthy than the UK ones.

• Late-2000s financial crisis, including:

• Subprime mortgage crisis in the U.S. starting in 2007
• 2008 United Kingdom bank rescue package
• 2009 United Kingdom bank rescue package
• 2008–2009 Belgian financial crisis
• 2008–2012 Icelandic financial crisis
• 2008–2009 Russian financial crisis
• 2008–2009 Ukrainian financial crisis
• 2008–2012 Spanish financial crisis
• 2008–2011 Irish banking crisis

[DonaldBattles]

Small correction. I have a Permanent Residence Book. I have had a work permit for 30 years. I continue to work.

[spambot]

Tried to read all posts saw nothing about you being barred for the future. I find this most extraordinary.

Sent from my WT-PAD013 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Not sure I get your meaning - However I think you are saying that I have no direct statement of being barred / prohibited from making an application for extension using an income letter method.

I have been forced to make a written signed statement that my future application will only be made by via a Thai bank method and with a verbal directive that income letters will not be accepted in any future applications from me.

I thought that was identified to be the case in earlier posts - Or was you making a different point?

Edited December 2, 2013 by spambot

[Maestro]

Removed some off-topic posts and the replies to them.