US citizens......do you FBAR?

[KhunG]

Not much reason to keep any money in a foreign account for the average Joe, unless for retirement requirement. Just draw for free on a US Bank via ATM. Much safer also.

Actually, we planned to move part of our investments into the Thai markets as a currency hedge. Now some investment brokers in Thailand are refusing US customers because of the cost of compliance with the US FATCA laws.

I comply with all reporting requirements. I always have. But the US threatening foreign financial institutions with penalties on their US business unless they comply with US laws while doing business outside of the US is ridiculous.

[meechai]

Not much reason to keep any money in a foreign account for the average Joe, unless for retirement requirement. Just draw for free on a US Bank via ATM. Much safer also.

I don't know...

I have quite a bit here & for me it is better than the US Banks

US bank savings = 0.25% interest

Thai Bank savings = 2.65% interest in a non time fixed account

960% better interest? No question for me.

USA banks safer? I do not think that is strictly true any longer

given the last few years of events in the US

Also interest is not taxed here if not a fixed account

Of course you need to claim it on your US tax returns....

[JLCrab]

Not much reason to keep any money in a foreign account for the average Joe, unless for retirement requirement. Just draw for free on a US Bank via ATM. Much safer also.

I don't know...

I have quite a bit here & for me it is better than the US Banks

US bank savings = 0.25% interest

Thai Bank savings = 2.65% interest in a non time fixed account

960% better interest? No question for me.

USA banks safer? I do not think that is strictly true any longer

given the last few years of events in the US

Also interest is not taxed here if not a fixed account

Of course you need to claim it on your US tax returns....

S&P 500 Index: +26.80% Year-to-Date

[CaptHaddock]

Ridiculous. In the financial crisis, between 2008 and 2012, 465 US banks failed. Of that number the amount of FDIC-insured deposits that depositors lost was exactly zero.

USA banks safer? I do not think that is strictly true any longer
given the last few years of events in the US

[meechai]

S&P 500 Index: +26.80% Year-to-Date

Risk/Reward of course

But the post I was replying to was talking bank accounts

[meechai]

Ridiculous. In the financial crisis, between 2008 and 2012, 465 US banks failed. Of that number the amount of FDIC-insured deposits that depositors lost was exactly zero.

yes I never mentioned anyone lost money & yes FDIC like the Thai counterpart is a nice to have.

All I said was I did not feel US banks were any safer than Thai banks

But the mere fact you can say 465 banks failed in the US enforces not diminishes my point

Edited December 10, 2013 by meechai

[BB1955]

I guess if I had that kind of money Id just put it the wifes name ....... I doubt they would ever find it that way .... Come to think of it DAAAA I might not find it either .....

[JLCrab]

S&P 500 Index: +26.80% Year-to-Date

Risk/Reward of course

But the post I was replying to was talking bank accounts

Yes -- but why keep any more than the minimum necessary in a bank account in which case a couple of percentage points isn't a big deal.

[meechai]

Yes -- but why keep any more than the minimum necessary in a bank account in which case a couple of percentage points isn't a big deal.

I can only give my opinion as I do it only for myself.

But I like to keep a few years expenses/funds in Thailand at all times.

I live here so it is in my mind not unreasonable & easier to not have to deal with currency fluctuation/timing.

also I need not spend as much with wire fees. When you transfer 50k or so USD a single baht fluctuation

makes a decent difference. I have not had to transfer in well over a year & a half but will do so again soon

since I feel the baht at 32+ vs USD is in a decent spot for me.

Also while I have investments in various things. What I am speaking of here is again liquid/cash

So it is also not unreasonable to accept such a higher rate of interest as I earn here vs the USA on cash savings.

I will also say that the interest I earn while not enough to cause me to pay taxes on my US return

is enough to live free here for at least a few months each year. I like that

Edited December 10, 2013 by meechai

[JLCrab]

Well I guess that's the difference as I live off monthly transfers via ATM for my monthly expenses in Thailand and the ATM fees are reimbursed at the end of each month. I never have more than a few thousand baht in any Thai bank account. Also I keep a no-International-transaction-fee VISA card for any major expense in Thailand especially health insurance. And the 26+% S&P gain this year paid for a good deal of my annual costs in Thailand ... I like that.

[meechai]

Well I guess that's the difference as I live off monthly transfers via ATM for my monthly expenses in Thailand and the ATM fees are reimbursed at the end of each month. I never have more than a few thousand baht in any Thai bank account. Also I keep a no-International-transaction-fee VISA card for any major expense in Thailand especially health insurance. And the 26+% S&P gain this year paid for a good deal of my annual costs in Thailand ... I like that.

Yes I keep a Capital one no international high limit card for the same reason as you.

It is a good major medical insurance to have.

Yes investments are good to have too & I like you have done well.

It has allowed me to retire here after all at a young-ish 50's

[JLCrab]

Well OK but I mean I pay for my health insurance policy here in Thailand with the VISA card -- not that the card is my health insurance.

[donniereadit]

Not much reason to keep any money in a foreign account for the average Joe, unless for retirement requirement. Just draw for free on a US Bank via ATM. Much safer also.

Actually, we planned to move part of our investments into the Thai markets as a currency hedge. Now some investment brokers in Thailand are refusing US customers because of the cost of compliance with the US FATCA laws.

I comply with all reporting requirements. I always have. But the US threatening foreign financial institutions with penalties on their US business unless they comply with US laws while doing business outside of the US is ridiculous.

Investing specifically in the Thai market is a risky move. Why not just use a broker from a US firm where accounts are insured and invest in international funds or stocks, or Thai specific stuff if your really that confident in Thailand for some reason.

Were you told you have to transfer funds over to a Thai bank by a broker in Thailand?

[jaideeguy]

Off topic a little, but seems that this thread has gone way off topic..........what does the Thai bank deposit insurance amount to now?? In other words 'what is the Thai FDIC?'

[meechai]

Off topic a little, but seems that this thread has gone way off topic..........what does the Thai bank deposit insurance amount to now?? In other words 'what is the Thai FDIC?'

I believe if it is Baht not a foreign currency deposit/savings...It is still 50 million baht

There was talk about reducing it to 1 million but afaik it did not pass

This news is from June 27th 2012

So unless a new rule is enacted the 50 million insurance is in effect till June 2015

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/27/stocksnews-thailand-idUSL3E8HR2PH20120627

The cabinet decided on Tuesday to keep the deposit guarantee limit at 50 million baht

($1.57 million) per person per bank for three more years, putting off a plan to cut

the amount to 1 million baht per customer per bank starting August 11.

Edited December 10, 2013 by meechai

[ableguy]

Hey JT............waiting on your post. Now, when they say "aggregate "..............are they including joint accounts with my Thai wife?? what about accounts that are from funds from income here in country?? and it seems by the replies so far that some of us are totally unaware of this FBAR. Can we play ignorant??

Ignorance as I am sure you know is no excuse for breaking the law.

[meechai]

Hey JT............waiting on your post. Now, when they say "aggregate "..............are they including joint accounts with my Thai wife?? what about accounts that are from funds from income here in country?? and it seems by the replies so far that some of us are totally unaware of this FBAR. Can we play ignorant??

Ignorance as I am sure you know is no excuse for breaking the law.

Being the IRS/US I think you have to assume as they surely do...anything with your name on it

that you have access to or any control of is to be included in the aggregate total.

It is not a income tax declaration but would of course include your income deposits even if earned outside the US

Because it has nothing to do with income taxes. It has all to do with them knowing what you have in Foreign banks in total.

Edited December 10, 2013 by meechai

[donniereadit]

Is your accountant also doing your taxes?

If so they need to go through training again, or you need to clarify with them why the forms were not filed.

[donniereadit]

If you are a citizen but don't pay taxes (retired or whatever) what could the US government do to your accounts in Thailand?

They can take/cancel your passport for one thing.

[thailiketoo]

If you are a citizen but don't pay taxes (retired or whatever) what could the US government do to your accounts in Thailand?

They can take/cancel your passport for one thing.

Would they hold it for ransom?

[Langsuan Man]

If you are a citizen but don't pay taxes (retired or whatever) what could the US government do to your accounts in Thailand?

They can take/cancel your passport for one thing.

Would they hold it for ransom?

If they got it, for instance to add additional pages, they would

[thailiketoo]

If you are a citizen but don't pay taxes (retired or whatever) what could the US government do to your accounts in Thailand?

They can take/cancel your passport for one thing.

Would they hold it for ransom?

If they got it, for instance to add additional pages, they would

I don't think you understood my question. If they got it would they hold it for ransom?

How much money would they want to give it back? Since no two cases would be alike wouldn't they have to go to court to determine what you owed?

Since there are no US courts in Thailand one would be back in the States before he know how much he owed.

[phuketrichard]

...For your info;

Starting next year the form will have to be filed electronically.

Just recently, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) held a webinar intended to provide instructions how the new electronic filing of an FBAR will look like.

Hardly anyone else even heard about this. I know this for a fact because when I was talking to some of my professional colleagues about it, they had no clue. In fact, almost everyone in the ‘business’ is still referring to the FBAR as the paper form TDF 90-22.1. This is incorrect… and bad information now.

.

[phuketrichard]

Would they hold it for ransom?

If they got it, for instance to add additional pages, they would

I don't think you understood my question. If they got it would they hold it for ransom?

How much money would they want to give it back? Since no two cases would be alike wouldn't they have to go to court to determine what you owed?

Since there are no US courts in Thailand one would be back in the States before he know how much he owed.

thuy can also refuse to re-issue u a US paspport if u owe child support.

If u do end up in this situtation, i woild imagine that the US will issue u a passport valid ONLY for travel to the US an inform Thai immigration as well, as without a passport you can not be here

[thailiketoo]

If they got it, for instance to add additional pages, they would

I don't think you understood my question. If they got it would they hold it for ransom?

How much money would they want to give it back? Since no two cases would be alike wouldn't they have to go to court to determine what you owed?

Since there are no US courts in Thailand one would be back in the States before he know how much he owed.

thuy can also refuse to re-issue u a US paspport if u owe child support.

If u do end up in this situtation, i woild imagine that the US will issue u a passport valid ONLY for travel to the US an inform Thai immigration as well, as without a passport you can not be here

You missed my point. There is no guilt without due process. There is no due process available in Thailand.

They would have to arrest you and take you back to the States to stand trial and in that case a passport would hardly be a concern.

Edited December 11, 2013 by thailiketoo

[donniereadit]

Edited December 11, 2013 by donniereadit

[donniereadit]

If they got it, for instance to add additional pages, they would

I don't think you understood my question. If they got it would they hold it for ransom?

How much money would they want to give it back? Since no two cases would be alike wouldn't they have to go to court to determine what you owed?

Since there are no US courts in Thailand one would be back in the States before he know how much he owed.

thuy can also refuse to re-issue u a US paspport if u owe child support.

If u do end up in this situtation, i woild imagine that the US will issue u a passport valid ONLY for travel to the US an inform Thai immigration as well, as without a passport you can not be here

You missed my point. There is no guilt without due process. There is no due process available in Thailand.

They would have to arrest you and take you back to the States to stand trial and in that case a passport would hardly be a concern.

Some developed countries have this thing called computers now.

Immigration can scan in your passport and see what's up, including criminal checks which fall under the not paying IRS. Your probably safe crossing in Cambodia somewhere.

If your passport is not valid (ie criminal flags) it is theoretically possible that immigration could not issue the visa you need. That means you would be stuck in Thailand with an expired visa and it would be a crapshoot whether you are caught. If caught it's time for the immigration detention center and buying a flight back to the US or just live in jail. Once in the US face the music. Again, I'm just theorizing here, but do you get the idea? Fighting the system is basically a losing battle in the long term.

Will they hold it for ransom? Absolutely. You have to pay plus penalties and interest. If the fine is big enough you could also face jail time.

IRS never lose in court. If you don't show up it's a default loss.

Thailand does have extradition with the US. Again, very unlikely for small amounts. Sooner or later the passport will expire and they will get you. The fine and criminal penalties will snowball and you will eventually have to face the music.

Why does it matter if other peoeple have filed correctly? You failed to file the forms as required so will have to take the risk and face the music. The procedure is the same whether it is 1 person or 1000. It's an audit red flag and your just playing the numbers hoping you don't get picked. You can do anything until you are caught.

Edited December 11, 2013 by donniereadit

[bonobo]

I just FBAR'd for 2011 and 2012. It wasn't difficult. SCB had my highest amounts for each year, and I guess it took me 20 minutes to include registering in the system.

[meechai]

I just FBAR'd for 2011 and 2012. It wasn't difficult. SCB had my highest amounts for each year, and I guess it took me 20 minutes to include registering in the system.

This is just my opinion but because this system is new & many

have not even been notified in any general way....I would say

that although I am caught up for those who are not...Just do like bonobo

& file. I really do not think they are in chase folks trying to comply & prosecute mode.

Reasonably speaking if your accounts are normal & not showing millions of dollars

suddenly that were never on any IRS tax return you would probably be fine.

I feel this law was aimed at the same group they tried to snare by forcing

Swiss banks to hand over info of accounts held by US citizens .

I do not get the feeling this is to unearth small fish.

Just my 2cents but it is what I would do if I only now found out &

had not filed. Like bonobo said it is quite easy.

Does it stink & feel like an invasion of privacy to some degree?

Yes definitely. But when it comes to the long arm I find it better to

surf over the waves than try to swim against them. At least these types

that do not really affect me in any real way.

Edited December 11, 2013 by meechai

[thailiketoo]

You missed my point. There is no guilt without due process. There is no due process available in Thailand.

They would have to arrest you and take you back to the States to stand trial and in that case a passport would hardly be a concern.

Some developed countries have this thing called computers now.

Immigration can scan in your passport and see what's up, including criminal checks which fall under the not paying IRS. Your probably safe crossing in Cambodia somewhere.

If your passport is not valid (ie criminal flags) it is theoretically possible that immigration could not issue the visa you need. That means you would be stuck in Thailand with an expired visa and it would be a crapshoot whether you are caught. If caught it's time for the immigration detention center and buying a flight back to the US or just live in jail. Once in the US face the music. Again, I'm just theorizing here, but do you get the idea? Fighting the system is basically a losing battle in the long term.

Will they hold it for ransom? Absolutely. You have to pay plus penalties and interest. If the fine is big enough you could also face jail time.

IRS never lose in court. If you don't show up it's a default loss.

Thailand does have extradition with the US. Again, very unlikely for small amounts. Sooner or later the passport will expire and they will get you. The fine and criminal penalties will snowball and you will eventually have to face the music.

Why does it matter if other peoeple have filed correctly? You failed to file the forms as required so will have to take the risk and face the music. The procedure is the same whether it is 1 person or 1000. It's an audit red flag and your just playing the numbers hoping you don't get picked. You can do anything until you are caught.

IRS loses 20% of cases with a lawyer. 14% without.

http://www.theshortchicagotaxlawyer.com/article-6---why-do-taxpayers-lose-most-every-case-against-the-irs.html

FBAR may not have anything to do with filing taxes. You have to file whether you owe taxes or not. In any event it is not a crime till you go to court and the judge says, "it's a crime." Maybe a fine, maybe a warning maybe jail time. No one knows until you go to court or make a deal or don't make a deal with the IRS.

I think you are confusing FBAR with another law that is aimed at taxes.

This thread is about FBAR which is a reporting requirement not delinquent taxes which is a completely separate issue.

You aren't a US citizen are you?

Edited December 11, 2013 by thailiketoo