Pheu Thai MP suggests amendment of Article 291 to appoint non-MP PM

[webfact]

Pheu Thai MP suggests amendment of Article 291 to appoint non-MP PM
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Pheu Thai MP Samart Kaewmeechai Thursday proposed that Article 291 of the Constitution should be amended so that a non-MP prime minister could be appointed to end the on-going political crisis.

Samart raised the proposal because he saw that the proposal of People's Democratic Reform Committee secretary general Suthep Thaugsuban was impossible and unconstitutional.

Suthep called on Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra to dissolve the House of Representatives and resign as the caretaker government to create a political vacuum so that Article 7 of the Constitution could be invoked to seek a prime minister from His Majesty the King.

Samart said such a proposal was unconstitutional because the current charter required that the prime minister must be an MP and must be selected in a peer vote by MPs.

Samart said Suthep could not cite the October 14 1973 event as an example of Article 7 invocation because the situations were different.

He noted that if the prime minister dissolves the House, the charter requires a new election to be held within 45 days anyway.

Samart said a possible solution is to amend Article 291 to state that in time of political crisis, a non-MP and nonpartisan prime minister can be appointed.

Samart said after the nonpartisan prime minister solves the political crisis, he can dissolve the House later.

Samart criticized Suthep for citing his massive number of protesters to pressure the government to return the ruling mandate to the people. Samart said Suthep should first ask tens of millions of voters whether they would like to give ruling mandate to Suthep.

Samart also challenged Suthep to form a new political party and sell the reform idea and contest an election to test public support for his idea. If Suthep's party wins the election, he will have the mandate to reform the country the way he proposes, Samart said.

Samart also voiced concern that the on-going situation would lead to a civil war. He said if Suthep's opponents see that police could not handle protesters, they may take the laws into their own hands, leading to a civil war.

-- The Nation 2013-12-06

[jaidam]

What a pity the fragrant PM had to get bloodied hands before one of her MP's had a half decent idea.

Anyway, too little, and far too late. This Thaksin markVI govt had all the chances in the world to put in a decent effort since the 48% "landslide victory", but no. All efforts went into eroding democracy, dividing the nation, and swelling BVI bank accounts. Expect blood to flow today, and finally Yingluck will not be able to escape responsibility for something.

[Local Drunk]

What a pity the fragrant PM had to get bloodied hands before one of her MP's had a half decent idea.

Anyway, too little, and far too late. This Thaksin markVI govt had all the chances in the world to put in a decent effort since the 48% "landslide victory", but no. All efforts went into eroding democracy, dividing the nation, and swelling BVI bank accounts. Expect blood to flow today, and finally Yingluck will not be able to escape responsibility for something.

"Expect blood to flow today"

I hope not... but for sure it's a bloody roller coaster ride of insanity for the last 10 years.

[FangFerang]

From the Nation today: 'The "People's Council", as described by PDRC secretary-general and protest leader Suthep Thaugsuban, has been widely criticised as an outdated solution, because it is designed to pave the way for a royally sponsored prime minister.'

]This is a red herring. What bothers the academics and many others is Suthep suddenly would have the supreme power to appoint the People's Council.

[Local Drunk]

His proposal seems plausible at first glance...

"Pheu Thai MP Samart Kaewmeechai Thursday proposed that Article 291 of the Constitution should be amended so that a non-MP prime minister could be appointed to end the on-going political crisis."

But then implies a civil war and lays the blame completely at the Democrats feet. It's a bit of a threatening proposition coming from the lips of a sitting MP.

"Samart also voiced concern that the on-going situation would lead to a civil war. He said if Suthep's opponents see that police could not handle protesters, they may take the laws into their own hands, leading to a civil war."

How do you read it?

[mrtoad]

If this was the case, then technically The DL could become the PM, although I suppose he is already.

I think it's a poor idea anyhow.

[MaxLee]

So plan B is in motion to appoint BANNED politicians on Barbie girl's behalf

[hellodolly]

I was not aware that he had called for her resignation and disaloution of the house.

I thought all he asked was for a council to be created.

It seemed strange to me at the time that would in effect leave two governments with one of them having a keader living in self imposed exile to avoid prosecution on 16 charges as well as the already two year jail sentience.

Wonder if Suthep is going to play the new increase in corruption under Yingluck's guidelines.

A complete failur5e at stopping corruption at bringing her brother back a free man and at any kind of flood control plus the failure of her free pad program. I wonder if she is getting a failure complex. Even the red shirts were splitting up under her guidance until big brother brought out his check book.

[Emptyset]

His proposal seems plausible at first glance...

"Pheu Thai MP Samart Kaewmeechai Thursday proposed that Article 291 of the Constitution should be amended so that a non-MP prime minister could be appointed to end the on-going political crisis."

But then implies a civil war and lays the blame completely at the Democrats feet. It's a bit of a threatening proposition coming from the lips of a sitting MP.

"Samart also voiced concern that the on-going situation would lead to a civil war. He said if Suthep's opponents see that police could not handle protesters, they may take the laws into their own hands, leading to a civil war."

How do you read it?

People have been saying that for ages. It's nothing more than a statement of the obvious, really. The potential for savage violence is clearly there, as we've already seen. Obviously I hope it won't get to the stage where it can be described as a civil war, and I still don't see that as very likely. I'm optimistic that they'll muddle through and get it together somehow before things descend into all out violence.

'If no one here is calling for bloodshed, a quiet threat is always implicit. Occasionally, it's explicit.

"Across the northeast we can seize every government office in every town, in every city, in every province," said Thongplean Boonphunga, a middle-aged rice farmer. The elite may deride Thaksin's followers as uneducated bumpkins, but, she notes, the country people have numbers on their side. "They can't control the whole country. We can," he said.'

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/thailand-s-farmers-pose-quiet-threat-to-traditional-politics-1.1575649

[GrantSmith]

If this was the case, then technically The DL could become the PM, although I suppose he is already.

I think it's a poor idea anyhow.

As it currently stands, DL is still a convicted criminal and as such would be prohibited from being 'elected' or 'appointed' to the interim PM role.

[jdinasia]

If this was the case, then technically The DL could become the PM, although I suppose he is already.

I think it's a poor idea anyhow.

As it currently stands, DL is still a convicted criminal and as such would be prohibited from being 'elected' or 'appointed' to the interim PM role.

He couldn't be elected, but he might be able to be appointed, since the Election Commision laws would not apply.

Then again Somchai could now step back in.His Ban ended 3 days ago and he is now part of PTP.

Just gut Parliament and get a new PM and start over. Even fresh elections, though they would inevitably lead to this same result again, are an option.

[GrantSmith]

jdinasia, given DL's criminal record, I believe this would preclude him from being appointed. Given its possible violation of Article 279.

[SOTIRIOS]

...above the law....great idea with their track record.....

[96tehtarp]

People have been saying that for ages. It's nothing more than a statement of the obvious, really. The potential for savage violence is clearly there, as we've already seen. Obviously I hope it won't get to the stage where it can be described as a civil war, and I still don't see that as very likely. I'm optimistic that they'll muddle through and get it together somehow before things descend into all out violence.

'If no one here is calling for bloodshed, a quiet threat is always implicit. Occasionally, it's explicit.

"Across the northeast we can seize every government office in every town, in every city, in every province," said Thongplean Boonphunga, a middle-aged rice farmer. The elite may deride Thaksin's followers as uneducated bumpkins, but, she notes, the country people have numbers on their side. "They can't control the whole country. We can," he said.'

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/thailand-s-farmers-pose-quiet-threat-to-traditional-politics-1.1575649

Also in the linked article above:

"Before Thaksin, the money never reached us here," she said. "Now it does."

The speaker sums up Thaksinism quite well.

It's what the people want, and have voted for over and over and over again.

There couldn't possibly be a more uneducated and ignorant proposal than the one made by the elitists to take the power of the ballot box away from the people. How well does anyone who lives in Thailand think that is going to work? Who are these guys? Can't they think? Don't they have brains? Or are they planning deliberately for a civil war?

The greed of the elitists never ceases to amaze me. They can't see anything else other than the trough of graft, and they want to get it back so desperately they are blind to everything else. Most importantly they have no clue what they will be up against should they attempt to rid the country of Thaksinism again. I hope and pray the military don't get sucked in again. Last time the army gave the elitists a clean slate on which to write their own new constitution and look how well that went for them.

Thaksinism is here to stay even if the entire Shinawatra family and their cronies get rounded up like the Bolsheviks did with the Tsar and his family.

The Red Shirts, who are so often reported as ignorant and uneducated are some pretty quick learners, (and there are a lots and lots and lots of them). Now be my guest Suthep, go ahead, tell them they can't vote anymore. I want to see how that is going to work for you.

Edited December 6, 2013 by 96tehtarp

[h90]

What a pity the fragrant PM had to get bloodied hands before one of her MP's had a half decent idea.

Anyway, too little, and far too late. This Thaksin markVI govt had all the chances in the world to put in a decent effort since the 48% "landslide victory", but no. All efforts went into eroding democracy, dividing the nation, and swelling BVI bank accounts. Expect blood to flow today, and finally Yingluck will not be able to escape responsibility for something.

What I'll never get, if Thaksin would have been only moderate corrupt, say 10 % of everything (actually this isn't corrupt at all by Thai standards), he could have been Premier for 30 years and go into the book of history of the best premier ever.....And the first years were good.

But no he wants too much and got power crazy.....

[bunuel]

The greatest leader of the 20th century passed away last night in South Africa. Nelson Mandela devoted his life to giving democracy to his country, and urged oeace and reconciliation between the races and different economic groups, in spite of the many atrocities and his own 27 years in jail fighting for the cause. Thanks to Madiba, a seemingly hopeless situation was resolved relatively oeacefully, and the principle of " one man. one vote" was instated. This was one of the political miracles of the 20th century. Let us hope the Thai political leadershio hear hia message of peaceful reconciliation and demcracy, and find a path to peace in the Kingdom. RIP ,Madiba!

[rogerdee123]

People have been saying that for ages. It's nothing more than a statement of the obvious, really. The potential for savage violence is clearly there, as we've already seen. Obviously I hope it won't get to the stage where it can be described as a civil war, and I still don't see that as very likely. I'm optimistic that they'll muddle through and get it together somehow before things descend into all out violence.

'If no one here is calling for bloodshed, a quiet threat is always implicit. Occasionally, it's explicit.

"Across the northeast we can seize every government office in every town, in every city, in every province," said Thongplean Boonphunga, a middle-aged rice farmer. The elite may deride Thaksin's followers as uneducated bumpkins, but, she notes, the country people have numbers on their side. "They can't control the whole country. We can," he said.'

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/thailand-s-farmers-pose-quiet-threat-to-traditional-politics-1.1575649

Also in the linked article above:

"Before Thaksin, the money never reached us here," she said. "Now it does."

The speaker sums up Thaksinism quite well.

It's what the people want, and have voted for over and over and over again.

There couldn't possibly be a more uneducated and ignorant proposal than the one made by the elitists to take the power of the ballot box away from the people. How well does anyone who lives in Thailand think that is going to work? Who are these guys? Can't they think? Don't they have brains? Or are they planning deliberately for a civil war?

The greed of the elitists never ceases to amaze me. They can't see anything else other than the trough of graft, and they want to get it back so desperately they are blind to everything else. Most importantly they have no clue what they will be up against should they attempt to rid the country of Thaksinism again. I hope and pray the military don't get sucked in again. Last time the army gave the elitists a clean slate on which to write their own new constitution and look how well that went for them.

Thaksinism is here to stay even if the entire Shinawatra family and their cronies get rounded up like the Bolsheviks did with the Tsar and his family.

The Red Shirts, who are so often reported as ignorant and uneducated are some pretty quick learners, (and there are a lots and lots and lots of them). Now be my guest Suthep, go ahead, tell them they can't vote anymore. I want to see how that is going to work for you.

>>>>"Before Thaksin, the money never reached us here," she said. "Now it does."

>>>>

>>>>The speaker sums up Thaksinism quite well.

You are crrect in this statement sums it up well. It's all about Money .. nothing else. Best to look beyond the Amart vs Prai facade. This is and has rather been mostly a struggle between "old money" and "new money".

[falangadang]

Whilst there is a lot of talk about Suthep's proposal for an interim caretaker government being unconstitutional or democratic, it would appear that the invocation of Article 7 could work and would in fact be entirely constitutional if done correctly.

I am hopeful that this can prevail without the need for bloodshed or civil commotion. If Yingluck willingly steps down and dissolves parliament and resign as caretaker government and thus enabling an independent correctly appointed non-mp then it could all work out well in the end.

The outcome of that could be that we have at least temporary peace on the streets and the caretaker period creates a space where real democratic principals can be discussed and planned.

Following that would be an election and even if PTP (or incarnation thereof) swung into power again we'd at least have a situation where the new government was on clear notice that the people of Thailand won't stand for any rough shod shenanigans where they can all line their pockets at the expense of the country and people of the nation.

[96tehtarp]

>>>>"Before Thaksin, the money never reached us here," she said. "Now it does."

>>>>

>>>>The speaker sums up Thaksinism quite well.

You are crrect in this statement sums it up well. It's all about Money .. nothing else. Best to look beyond the Amart vs Prai facade. This is and has rather been mostly a struggle between "old money" and "new money".

Money is a very different animal for the rural poor than it is for the rich elite.

Money for the Red Shirts means electricity, water for irrigation, basic medical care, and the elimination of poverty in Thailand.

For the elite it's greed and an unjustified sense of entitlement and hereditary superiority.

[96tehtarp]

I am hopeful that this can prevail without the need for bloodshed or civil commotion. If Yingluck willingly steps down and dissolves parliament and resign as caretaker government and thus enabling an independent correctly appointed non-mp then it could all work out well in the end.

I share your hope.

Yingluck has said she is willing to step down if that is what it takes to save lives and foster peace in the country. The only caveat she gave was that it must be done constitutionally, and so far none of Suthep's ideas are legally permitted under the constitution.

Making it legal would take an amendment to article 291 of the constitution and some dialogue with Suthep. Yingluck can't legally talk to Suthep until he is arrested or turns himself in to face the sedition charges on his arrest warrant. Then on the 12th we'll hear about his and former PM Abhisit's murder indictments.

[Robby nz]

However if you read the other topic you will see that Thaksin has said, through his lawyer, that it is not on.

So therefor it should be forgotten.

The MP who had the stupid audacity to try to think for himself and make a statement without first clearing it with the boss will no doubt have his allowance withdrawn,

[Emptyset]

Whilst there is a lot of talk about Suthep's proposal for an interim caretaker government being unconstitutional or democratic, it would appear that the invocation of Article 7 could work and would in fact be entirely constitutional if done correctly.

I really don't see article 7 being invoked. Though as someone else just pointed out to me, both coup and judicial options are still on the table, though option 1 will only happen if protesters can up the ante still further and violence ensues. Even then I think the military will be reluctant to intervene. They're aware of the support this government has. It's not like during past coups where people often accepted the military pushing the reset button because at least order would be restored. In 2006 many in the NE and North especially were furious about the coup. But back then there was no grassroots organization that could resist it. Difference between now and then is the red shirts, I'd say.

Even so, you can never rule such things out completely. I think government will dissolve house before they're pushed though. The worry is for them that some Democrat MPs are still not sure they're going to contest the election. Abhisit says he's ready, but is he sincere, and is the rest of his party with him? Could end up with a 2006 scenario all over again.

[Emptyset]

Just noticed that BKK Pundit has a new post which goes over what I wrote earlier again and also covers more constitutional details. Simply put, a People's Council isn't possible under this constitution.

'Section 3 refers to the National Assembly, but Section 88 sets out what the National Assembly is which is the House of Representatives and the Senate. Section 93 outlines who can be members of the House of Representatives and Section 111 outlines who can be members of the Senate. The only way to form a parliament/National Assembly with any legislative power is to have members in accordance with Sections 93 and 111. Hence, there is no provision for some arbitrary unelected body which has legislative power. Now, a group could be set up who has no power, but that is now what Suthep is talking about.'

http://asiancorrespondent.com/116778/how-can-we-get-a-peoples-assembly/

[jdinasia]

Just noticed that BKK Pundit has a new post which goes over what I wrote earlier again and also covers more constitutional details. Simply put, a People's Council isn't possible under this constitution.

'Section 3 refers to the National Assembly, but Section 88 sets out what the National Assembly is which is the House of Representatives and the Senate. Section 93 outlines who can be members of the House of Representatives and Section 111 outlines who can be members of the Senate. The only way to form a parliament/National Assembly with any legislative power is to have members in accordance with Sections 93 and 111. Hence, there is no provision for some arbitrary unelected body which has legislative power. Now, a group could be set up who has no power, but that is now what Suthep is talking about.'

http://asiancorrespondent.com/116778/how-can-we-get-a-peoples-assembly/

Correct, on the face. I do not think that Suthep is assuming the current constitution will be in place. He seems to avoid the words except when talking about getting a new PM and using article7. Then he switches to buzzwords like "pure democracy under the king" etc .....

I agree in some ways that the country may be more resistant to a coup than before, and that it will take more staging this time. I have assumed from the beginning that Suthep was merely doing the staging.

If a coup happens (which I can see your argument against it) it would have to be fully prepared in advance,

The new reform laws ready to be implemented, a proposed non-military PM and cabinet ready to step in, The basics of the new constitution ready. and an actual legislative body proposed, OR a 6 month election set in advance Allowing enough time for the reform laws to be understood and for the people to vote on and or amend the new constitution.

Though I have been honest about thinking a coup is a decent option, I am starting to lean more to a judicial answer such as the impeachment option. My brief chats with emptyset (and others) make me think. Those of you that are passionate about the topic and who find yourselves seemingly on the opposite side as emptyset would do well to think about what he says. (I am usually at least marginally on the "opposite side" as he is, and his ideas make me re-think my own. Usually just refining mine but sometimes changing them completely. That is the purpose of intelligent debate.

[ggold]

His proposal seems plausible at first glance...

"Pheu Thai MP Samart Kaewmeechai Thursday proposed that Article 291 of the Constitution should be amended so that a non-MP prime minister could be appointed to end the on-going political crisis."

But then implies a civil war and lays the blame completely at the Democrats feet. It's a bit of a threatening proposition coming from the lips of a sitting MP.

"Samart also voiced concern that the on-going situation would lead to a civil war. He said if Suthep's opponents see that police could not handle protesters, they may take the laws into their own hands, leading to a civil war."

How do you read it?

Red Shirt Storm troopers maybe?

[jpeg]

Can you, in your wildest dreams (even here), imagine a proportion of the Thai populace trotting off to the ballot box, thumbing their noses at the proportion deemed 'too ignorant to vote a la, topically, apartheid - 'na na na nahhhh we can vote and you, can't' seriously? just think about it

Just when you think this place can plummet no further into insanity

[Thailand]

The greatest leader of the 20th century passed away last night in South Africa. Nelson Mandela devoted his life to giving democracy to his country, and urged oeace and reconciliation between the races and different economic groups, in spite of the many atrocities and his own 27 years in jail fighting for the cause. Thanks to Madiba, a seemingly hopeless situation was resolved relatively oeacefully, and the principle of " one man. one vote" was instated. This was one of the political miracles of the 20th century. Let us hope the Thai political leadershio hear hia message of peaceful reconciliation and demcracy, and find a path to peace in the Kingdom. RIP ,Madiba!

A great man indeed but still had his skeletons. Wasn't all peace and quiet.

Umkhonto we Sizwe

[Mudcrab]

a non-MP and nonpartisan prime minister can be appointed.

I'll do it!!!!!!

[Mudcrab]

The greatest leader of the 20th century passed away last night in South Africa. Nelson Mandela devoted his life to giving democracy to his country, and urged oeace and reconciliation between the races and different economic groups, in spite of the many atrocities and his own 27 years in jail fighting for the cause. Thanks to Madiba, a seemingly hopeless situation was resolved relatively oeacefully, and the principle of " one man. one vote" was instated. This was one of the political miracles of the 20th century. Let us hope the Thai political leadershio hear hia message of peaceful reconciliation and demcracy, and find a path to peace in the Kingdom. RIP ,Madiba!

Ahem....I think you may have re-written history a little here. As do many. Old Nelson wasn't locked up for being a nice guy. Go read some history.

One mans freedom fighter is anothers terrorist

Edited December 6, 2013 by Mudcrab

[ggold]

Just noticed that BKK Pundit has a new post which goes over what I wrote earlier again and also covers more constitutional details. Simply put, a People's Council isn't possible under this constitution.

'Section 3 refers to the National Assembly, but Section 88 sets out what the National Assembly is which is the House of Representatives and the Senate. Section 93 outlines who can be members of the House of Representatives and Section 111 outlines who can be members of the Senate. The only way to form a parliament/National Assembly with any legislative power is to have members in accordance with Sections 93 and 111. Hence, there is no provision for some arbitrary unelected body which has legislative power. Now, a group could be set up who has no power, but that is now what Suthep is talking about.'

http://asiancorrespondent.com/116778/how-can-we-get-a-peoples-assembly/

Correct, on the face. I do not think that Suthep is assuming the current constitution will be in place. He seems to avoid the words except when talking about getting a new PM and using article7. Then he switches to buzzwords like "pure democracy under the king" etc .....

I agree in some ways that the country may be more resistant to a coup than before, and that it will take more staging this time. I have assumed from the beginning that Suthep was merely doing the staging.

If a coup happens (which I can see your argument against it) it would have to be fully prepared in advance,

The new reform laws ready to be implemented, a proposed non-military PM and cabinet ready to step in, The basics of the new constitution ready. and an actual legislative body proposed, OR a 6 month election set in advance Allowing enough time for the reform laws to be understood and for the people to vote on and or amend the new constitution.

Though I have been honest about thinking a coup is a decent option, I am starting to lean more to a judicial answer such as the impeachment option. My brief chats with emptyset (and others) make me think. Those of you that are passionate about the topic and who find yourselves seemingly on the opposite side as emptyset would do well to think about what he says. (I am usually at least marginally on the "opposite side" as he is, and his ideas make me re-think my own. Usually just refining mine but sometimes changing them completely. That is the purpose of intelligent debate.

The constitution Court stopped short of impeachment, probably in fear of what would happen had they gone ahead and impeached PTP. PTP saying they did not recognise the courts decision! Now it seems that confrontation will be the only result if not solution.

It suits both sides to play the constitution card rather than look at what would be best for the country. Leaving PTP in power doesn't guarantee fair elections next time around. Especially if opposition politicians are barred from politics.

For sure the Constitution needs a rewrite if not wholesale amending. But not for the benefit of one party or person! Arguably it is the constitution that needs to be suspended! A coalition government installed with the power to go through the constitution and rewrite it by consensus. Allowing for Politicians right to blow the whistle without law suits being issued as means to silence opposition voices. Though there are many issues that need fine detail to have total transparency to the public. Corrupt politicians should be barred for life from public office etc.

However now PTP may feel that as the army will not step in, they are emboldened to say no further talks with the opposition protesters Suthep must be arrested! business as usual! Which ironically, if this goes on for months will probably bring the army out? PTP do not (IMO) feel the need to help any Judicial process oust them from power! In one hand they supposedly talk accommodation in the other they hold the red shirt troops.

I think we know which hand will show first?

If or when the army come out, I hope they will not put their self interest first! If the Military really are for the people and Thailand, Then with a consensus of politicians, academics and the judiciary they would have the power to write a new constitution.

Edited December 6, 2013 by ggold