Suthep: No reform, no election

[SamMunich]

Let's not get carried away. Calling Suthep a mad man, who wastes oxygen etc just falls back onto the writers of such nonsense.

The issue at hand is not the personal shortcoming of this (Suthep) or that guy (Taksin), even if these shortcomings might be a part in creating the problem. This is NOT a problem of an individual, it is the problem of the whole society!
Taksin thought, he knows how to form the society, and death and destruction to everybody, who dared to think different.
Suthep thinks, that in order to get more democratic, you have to be more autocratic first.

But the issue is how to transform (?) the existing situation into a kind of state, that is having not only really democratic elections, but also the rights of the minority upheld and even more important: To allow everybody the same chance to take part in defining and creating the future of the society. And that includes specifically the poor, the farmers and the labourers.

Democratic elections do not depend on new laws, they depend on enforcing existing laws. Vote-buying etc. is already illegal. The problem are those, who are supposed to enforce the law and who are corrupt and bought off by the rich and wealthy politicians. The other day I came across an article by a professor, I think from Thammasat, who pointed this out in detail, and guess what, he is right! And we can go on and enforce the removal of corrupt politicians with the help of existing laws. And we can get a grip on candidates, who come up with outrageous promises during elections.

Problem now is, that the government does not want to chance the present situation, as it is to their advantage. And neither Suthep nor anybody else will manage to enforce that the relevant laws are applied without fail in such short time.

There are two long-term solutions, that will help:
* get rid of the corrupt police force. Don't ask me how to do that, but is is a necessity.
* get everybody an education, that empowers him/her to define and decide their own way of living. The better educated, the more independent people are, and also less corruptable. That is one of the major point I hold Taksin accountable for. He had 6 years time and he once was minister of education, but still he did absolutely nothing to raise the standard of education. He, as all the people of power, doesn't wants educated workers and voters, that would be a threat to their position.

So, instead of calling Suthep names he doesn't deserve, let's think of how we, as individuals, can help to create a situation, where elections can't be rigged. For the Thais on this board, it could mean to support the Election Commission of groups with similar aims, for the Foreigners it could mean to create understanding "at home" about the situation and the problems here in Thailand.

Can we agree on that?

[tomacht8]

“To reform Thailand for sustainable development, several issues must be addressed especially laws on elections, political parties, election commission and corruption prevention"

That's a nice job for politicians.

For this, the warring factions must talk to each other.

May, the best would be to build two reform teams.

First team is YL und Suthep.

They get the Presidential Suite. 2 sleeping rooms, two bathrooms and one big conference room.

No phones and no tv allowed, but we give them a lot of paper and pencils.

Then the room will locked, until both come out with there reform ideas, underlined by both.

It is up to them how long they like to stay there, but the door remains closed until they find a compromise.

Second team are 3 people from both sides.

Each side must choose the interlocutors of the other side.

The ruling party must choose 3 people from the movement,

and the movement choose 3 people from the ruling party.

The reform talks then will be broadcast nationwide live on TV.

Like a game show, also this team must find at least one concrete reform idea per day.

If they fail to find one compromise per day, all 6 are out and the next 6 people get their turn,

until Thailand finds some politician they are able to talk solution-oriented with each other, in the sense of the whole nation.

[Yunla]

So, instead of calling Suthep names he doesn't deserve, let's think of how we, as individuals, can help to create a situation, where elections can't be rigged. For the Thais on this board, it could mean to support the Election Commission of groups with similar aims, for the Foreigners it could mean to create understanding "at home" about the situation and the problems here in Thailand.

Can we agree on that?

With respect, when he says we don't need a parliamentary democracy, we need an appointed group of leaders that he Suthep approves of, he is talking about tyranny. Also he has escalated a peaceful massprotest into a an occupy-and-overthrow movement and people have died as a result. Not to mention the harm to the economy and Thailand's image his actions this last month have had.

Solution is to keep Parliamentary Democracy, it doesn't matter who wins the most votes, if you have a new stronger regulation of Parliament so that issues must be debated and can't be steamrollered through while the PM is in Timbuktu or somewhere. We need a very strong system in Parliament, to balance out the loose-fit casual systems that make the rest of the national apparatus so corroded and self-obsoleting.

But those processes begin and end in Parliament, with all elected members, not just the party who got the most votes. Suthep is proposing a new system which is more like autocracy, it is completely regressive and doesn't belong in the 21st Century.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Yunla

[binjalin]

he's a nutter

10m ?

80% of meeting supported him?

[cacruden]

A non-corrupt police force would require a more highly paid professional police force - something that neither side has up to this point seemed to interested in paying for (unfortunately). Any police officer convicted of corruption should face severe penalties (total asset confiscation; long sentences) which would only be able to be reduced by flipping on officers above your rank. The implementation of a Internal Affairs (police of police); Civilian Oversight Board; among other things.... with the potential of in the short term hiring outside oversight from Singapore during the transition period. All revenue collected (spot fines; street vendors) should be collected via permits etc and go through general revenues which would then fund higher professional salaries and a potential one time payout to reimburse those lower down the money required to join the police force in the first place (that they had expected to make back over time).

[lorddaverichards]

He says the Thai people will rise up? What about the 15 million or so people who voted PTP? Wont they rise up if democracy is stolen from them with a peoples council!!!

Sent from my GT-I9082L using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Old Man River]

One of the more interesting points about Suthep is that despite all his years as a top dog in the Dems, he would appear to be now saying that the Democrats are equally corrupt and useless and not fit to govern the Country (a sentiment that I would totally agree with!). Why else would he be calling for his "Peoples' Council" and not for all good men to roll their sleeves up and work for a Dem victory in the polls?

This has nothing to do with politics.

[h90]

One of the more interesting points about Suthep is that despite all his years as a top dog in the Dems, he would appear to be now saying that the Democrats are equally corrupt and useless and not fit to govern the Country (a sentiment that I would totally agree with!). Why else would he be calling for his "Peoples' Council" and not for all good men to roll their sleeves up and work for a Dem victory in the polls?

I wonder what little Mark feels about that? Anyone heard a squeek from the Dems recently? Apart from their floundering about like a fish out of water deciding whether to boycot the election, or not as the case may be.

That is complete nonsense. While I don't like the Dems much and surely they are corrupt and partially useless, they are still total different.

They have ideas and plans which they try to work out and on the way some of them are corrupt.

While the Shinawatra parties only idea is to make money.

And with all the vote buying you must be corrupt to get elected because you need to finance the vote buying. They only way to finish is to ban the vote buying and no party would like to cut off their own legs.

So his "peoples council" is the only thing that has a remote chance of doing so...Still it won't happen.

If the democrats are so smart why can't they make the people vote for them ?

They just had to wait a bit and take the rice scheme failure opportunity to raise their voice

they should have selected other political figures than Abhisit and Suthep who are linked to the deaths and wounded in 2010 in most of their opponent minds.

That would be a good start to fair elections, after all if the majority is in their side, they shouldn t be afraid to go to the poll

because most people don't care about rice scheme and have no feeling how it hurt the country. But they do understand 500 Baht cash on the hand before the election is good.

The Democrats actually speak day and night about the rice scheme, mostly upcountry, because guess what the TV doesn't report if the Democrats speak about some real problems of the government.

But what I think is the bigger problem. When they were in power, they weren't very impressive. Many of the Democrat voter didn't vote for them in the last elections.

They had the chance to change many things. But they were weak. The red demonstrations would have been the best opportunity to get rid of half the police leader for neglect of duty.

Fight against the corruption, fight the corruption at the coalition partner, till the coalition brakes and Abhisit and Suthep would stay as "Mr. clean".

But in fact they did just a medium job.

On the other hand....look at Thaksins parties ---> A medium quality government would be a huge step forward from Thaksins corrupt government.

[Loles]

No reform. No election. Only Heil suthep, suthep, suthep.

This man is crazy that's pretty sure.

[virtualtraveller]

I find most these comments naive. Stop sticking to this twee notion that democracy is perfect and the way forward. Democracy in this country is broken. What's the point of an election if it returns a result that is grossly unacceptable to so many because it abuses its victory to seek political hegemony (fascism posing as democracy).

Stop confusing election and democracy, one is a voting system to choose who governs, the other is a more complex system of fair governance for all. A flawed election and belief of 'winner takes all' is not democracy. You cannot conduct a successful reform if the election winner is driving the agenda, thwarting any reform that undermines their unfair advantage in the process.

Suthep is a nutter and gets it wrong by insisting HIS side gets to appoint the council, but he is right in insisting the other side not control the reform process, it will be a waste of time, we all know that. And lots of people support this threat of no elections before reform.

The democrats will tell their supporters not to bother voting at the next election, they will boycott, the result will be a farce. Given the situation we find ourselves in 2 years on from an 'election' they are justified in refusing to participate further in election/democracy until it is reformed and I think fully 30% of the population will go along with that.

[aguy30]

It is often embarrassing to read comments by the "informed" and highly opinionated members of ThaiVisa. It seems that many have their heads fully inserted in the "sun don't shine place". So many appear to have little or even no real idea about what is happening in Thailand.

Some ideas to continue on with the same Thai thinking. The Dems could easily defeat the PTP if they did the following:

Pay more for votes than PTP pays.

Offer to pay more for the rice purchased than under the PTP scam deal.

Pay an outrageous price for rubber and other populist programs under new scams.

Discount new cars to 1/2 price and offer no interest government loans only to "understanding" voters.

Offer an alternative to the almost completely undefined "high speed rail system". Actually they NEVER said what "high speed" means. Anything over 80 km/hour would be comparatively high speed to the clunker of today. You are a dreamer if you think it will be even close to the bullet trains of Europe, China and Japan. Perhaps teleportation is the answer, offered at half the price of a plane ticket and say it will available around 2035. Should be very impressive to the low IQ Thai voters and many TV member.

The only hope for Thailand to get out of the current mess is for the Shins and family members to leave politics forever. They will be no end to this mess if they try to stay in control.

Allow honest voting without any vote buying with international oversight like the UN. End all populist projects like rice buying and whatever additional items that can be thought of. Kill the high speed rail train and devise workable transportation projects and without corruption.

[aguy30]

Suthep is considered to be a "nutter" by many. Maybe, or is he a well planned move for needed changes. BUT SO WHAT. If he succeeds in removing the root causes of Thailand's political problems. Perhaps he is more the sacrificial lamb offered by the dems to take the heat and offer seperation. Few expect that he will have any political future. I believe he stated that it time to go to Samui and relax when this is over. I hope he gets to enjoy his retirement in the near future.

Suthep will have performed a great service if he is successful in removing the Shins and family from power because the current government is beyond broken. Most anything is better than the current Shin mess. Well, not if it is North Korea or Iran style.

Edited December 15, 2013 by aguy30

[kurtgruen]

According to Reuters "Anupong, 64, and Prawit, 67" are power behind the Suthep - and they may still hold enough sway that if push comes to shove the army would side with Suthep.

It is obvious to me that what some of us see as crazy rants are really movements of pieces on a Chessboard. If the People's pusch fails; then the the next piece to move is for a judicial pusch; and only if that fails would the Army be pushed to be the forefront. They would prefer not being seen as taking sides, but if they did it would be on the side of Suthep.

This is how I currently see it playing out:

Phase 1: Suthep mobilizes population to oppose an unpopular piece of legislation - a win; He then uses his current status to continue a people's pusch and otherthrow the elected democratic government (this has fizzled - so Phase 2 begins)

Phase 2: Judicial coup. Democratic Party resigns from parliament leaving most of not only members of parliament to be those that voted in favour of an elected senat. Even though the democratic government took no actions to violate the constitution by starting the process of electing senators, the opinions raised that the courts overstepped their boundary (or some-other reason) would be used to disqualify the rest of the MPs before the next election leaving a vacuum to which a "People's Council" could then be appointed.

Phase 3: If for some reason that fails to materialize the Army would be forced to play their cards and step out from behind the curtains.

Simply put, the election is not likely going to take place.

That's sort of like I see it play out, too. Thaksin managed to buy some Army Brass, but definitely not all. Last time, he tried to eliminate the Position of the Prem and brought a coup upon himself. Thaksin keeps trying and money can buy a lot of influence in this Country, so who knows, how it plays out.

I just hope, that Thaksin, the Dictator, will never return. May he enjoy his corrupt proceeds, like others like him before (Marcos, from the Phillipines), in Exile.

I hope, he never gets to step foot on Thai soil again, unless it is through an extradition treaty and his feet land straight in jail.

[ironwolf2007]

Wow... really? 10 Million? Why not say 100 Million. More impact.

[Spalpeen]

Here's a thought for the few deluded posters here who think that democracy doesn't work in Thailand......United States, the two main parties bring the country close to meltdown every three months. UK? Labour won most seats in the last election but the conservatives formed the government. Russia? Give me a break! Italy? Silvio Berlusconi.

Democracy in Thailand is no better or worse than it is in any other country, and it would work better if people worked from within the electoral and legal systems to improve it instead of running crying to the army at the least excuse.

[anon7867763]

Some ideas to continue on with the same Thai thinking. The Dems could easily defeat the PTP if they did the following:

Pay more for votes than PTP pays.

Offer to pay more for the rice purchased than under the PTP scam deal.

Pay an outrageous price for rubber and other populist programs under new scams.

Discount new cars to 1/2 price and offer no interest government loans only to "understanding" voters.

Offer an alternative to the almost completely undefined "high speed rail system". Actually they NEVER said what "high speed" means. Anything over 80 km/hour would be comparatively high speed to the clunker of today. You are a dreamer if you think it will be even close to the bullet trains of Europe, China and Japan. Perhaps teleportation is the answer, offered at half the price of a plane ticket and say it will available around 2035. Should be very impressive to the low IQ Thai voters and many TV member.

That part of your post was brilliant ! pretty much sums up the situation and very funny at the same time.Thank you !

[brit1984]

it's my ball and if you don't let me take the penalty i'm not letting anyone play

[pookiki]

My democracy is broken and I can't play with it anymore! WAAAAAAH

[brit1984]

Suthep is considered to be a "nutter" by many. Maybe, or is he a well planned move for needed changes. BUT SO WHAT. If he succeeds in removing the root causes of Thailand's political problems. Perhaps he is more the sacrificial lamb offered by the dems to take the heat and offer seperation. Few expect that he will have any political future. I believe he stated that it time to go to Samui and relax when this is over. I hope he gets to enjoy his retirement in the near future.

Suthep will have performed a great service if he is successful in removing the Shins and family from power because the current government is beyond broken. Most anything is better than the current Shin mess. Well, not if it is North Korea or Iran style.

sure thaksin & co are bad (all sensible people can see that) but removing them by the force of "peaceful" protests led by a guy who is just as bad is not going to clean up this mess (actually it will just guarantee that the more fanatic / crazy red-shirts will come to bangkok next year and make an even bigger mess)

in the same way that removing a malignant brain tumour would be better than leaving it there, but not if the method of removal is beheading

the opposition needs to use their intelligence (or use their money to rent some consultants' intelligence) and take power by democracy - it really shouldn't be that difficult if the government is so bad and the electorate so cheap (although suthep's recent behaviour has certainly made it more difficult)

[96tehtarp]

“To reform Thailand for sustainable development, several issues must be addressed especially laws on elections, political parties, election commission and corruption prevention"

"Sustainable development" This is the piece of the OP that highlights itself.

"Sustainable development" is a carefully placed talking-point. I vividly remember seeing and hearing this slogan being circulated in a very high profile manner after the last military coup. The rest of Suthep' points in the OP we've all heard before.

With reference specifically to "sustainable development," who... (self censorship here.) Connecting the dots will lead to (more self censorship here).

[pookiki]

About a week ago, I was talking with a Thai man who is a contractor building an apartment building near where I live and a place I pass on the way to exercise everyday. We happened to begin talking about corruption and he noted that corruption was rampant in Thailand. I replied that corruption is a problem with governments all over the world. He replied that I was from a relatively young country that had not been able to develop corruption as 'way of life' as it does in Thailand. It will take generations to change things as ingrained as corruption is in Thailand. An analogy is racial equality in the US. Lincoln freed the slaves in 1863. When I was a young man in the late 1950's there were still segregated restrooms in the south and segregated school systems in the north and south. Then, 100 years later, came the Civil Rights Act which was followed by considerable unrest and assassinations. Now, the US has a black President and the racist vitriol has yet to cease. Yes, there has been progress but a lot more needs to be done. It seems that so many of the people posting here have this surreal notion that someone will be able to 'snap their finger' or 'flip a switch' and corruption will disappear and Thailand will live by good and righteous democracy ever after. Reform is as real as most of the 'women' who come out of Bangmod Hospital! Democracy is not a fairy tale.

Edited December 15, 2013 by pookiki

[SamMunich]

So, instead of calling Suthep names he doesn't deserve, let's think of how we, as individuals, can help to create a situation, where elections can't be rigged. For the Thais on this board, it could mean to support the Election Commission of groups with similar aims, for the Foreigners it could mean to create understanding "at home" about the situation and the problems here in Thailand.

Can we agree on that?

With respect, when he says we don't need a parliamentary democracy, we need an appointed group of leaders that he Suthep approves of, he is talking about tyranny. Also he has escalated a peaceful massprotest into a an occupy-and-overthrow movement and people have died as a result. Not to mention the harm to the economy and Thailand's image his actions this last month have had.

Solution is to keep Parliamentary Democracy, it doesn't matter who wins the most votes, if you have a new stronger regulation of Parliament so that issues must be debated and can't be steamrollered through while the PM is in Timbuktu or somewhere. We need a very strong system in Parliament, to balance out the loose-fit casual systems that make the rest of the national apparatus so corroded and self-obsoleting.

But those processes begin and end in Parliament, with all elected members, not just the party who got the most votes. Suthep is proposing a new system which is more like autocracy, it is completely regressive and doesn't belong in the 21st Century.

Sorry Yunla, it looks like you're missing my point.

Maybe your hatred of Suthep stand in the way of reading what I really wrote.

First he didn't hijack a mass protest, he brought several protesting groups together. Next he didn't say anywhere, that he will decide on the make-up of any leadership group and people did NOT die because of his involvement. That was red shirts against Ramkhamhaeng students fighting, some 15 or 20 clicks away from Suthep. And likely some black shirts involvement.

I'm not against parliamentary democracy, just the opposite. But I refuse to accept labeling something as a parliamentary democracy, if it isn't such a thing. A parliament for the sake of having one is useless. It must serve the people it is supposed to serve and who elected it. Or what do you think? And elections must be fair and equal to all involved and then some more,- you can read it up in Wikipedia I guess.

Strange: Most foreigners, that are opposed to the current demonstrators here are all for the demonstrators in the Ukraine...

Sam

[Thailand]

Without a doubt the countries problems would be resolved by simply reading Thai Visa as there many posters claiming to have the answer one of them may even be right - but I doubt it!

[pookiki]

To those who think that the democratic system in Thailand is so terrible and dysfunctional, I would invite you to watch a movie called 'The Act of Killing' - a remarkable movie about the purge of alleged communists in Indonesia during the 1960's. It is one the most sobering movies I have ever seen and you can download it for free. When we all think that democracy is leading us to 'hell in a hand-basket', there are more recent examples in SE Asia of what it was truly like to live in 'totalitarian' state and a 'messiah' promising to bring the us the great life of living under the glory of the will of the people. Pol Pot also comes to mind.

[JenksB]

One of the more interesting points about Suthep is that despite all his years as a top dog in the Dems, he would appear to be now saying that the Democrats are equally corrupt and useless and not fit to govern the Country (a sentiment that I would totally agree with!). Why else would he be calling for his "Peoples' Council" and not for all good men to roll their sleeves up and work for a Dem victory in the polls?

I wonder what little Mark feels about that? Anyone heard a squeek from the Dems recently? Apart from their floundering about like a fish out of water deciding whether to boycot the election, or not as the case may be.

All politicians are by their very nature corrupt, they mostly go in to politics to see what they can get out of it, but at least normally you can get rid of the worst at an election, if an unelected "peoples Council" is put in place there is no way they will give up the power that they will undoubtely aquire, it will then slide into a dictatorship, this will mean either the armed forces will stage another coup to return to a democracy "eventually" or we will all have to suffer becoming an international pariah with the rest of the ASEN countries slowly withdrawing support just in case it becomes a catching "disease" after all no-one likes an infected country on their borders, it has taken decades for Myanmar to become a more acceptable country internationally and that appears to be the direction that Sutep wants to move Thailand despite or because the majority of Thais who are apathetic about politics as all they see is different faces, same corruption who ever is in power. That is what Suthep wants is POWER for himself to make himself rich at the expense of Thailand by any means possible!

[Frank James]

Mr Suthep claimed that 80 per cent of participants in yesterday’s talks with the top brass agreed with the PDRC’s reform-before-election stance, insisting that one has to take sides in the fight against Thaksin regime.

So who were the 20% that disagreed that there should be reform before elections?

Oh... the Shinawatra 'paid for' military.

So, Doctor T buys millions of votes every election, even though his side wins without the need to buy votes, and now you say he has a "paid for" military? How rich is he??

Is Thaksin the most evil Thai of the 20th/21st Century? Anybody else even come close?

[Yunla]

Sorry Yunla, it looks like you're missing my point.

Maybe your hatred of Suthep stand in the way of reading what I really wrote.

First he didn't hijack a mass protest, he brought several protesting groups together. Next he didn't say anywhere, that he will decide on the make-up of any leadership group and people did NOT die because of his involvement. That was red shirts against Ramkhamhaeng students fighting, some 15 or 20 clicks away from Suthep. And likely some black shirts involvement.

I'm not against parliamentary democracy, just the opposite. But I refuse to accept labeling something as a parliamentary democracy, if it isn't such a thing. A parliament for the sake of having one is useless. It must serve the people it is supposed to serve and who elected it. Or what do you think? And elections must be fair and equal to all involved and then some more,- you can read it up in Wikipedia I guess.

Strange: Most foreigners, that are opposed to the current demonstrators here are all for the demonstrators in the Ukraine...

Sam

I don't hate Suthep, or anyone else. I'm closer to the Light than I am to the life-of-the-party, now. I don't have the energy to hate anyone.

Re; Parliamentary Democracy, that is exactly what I was posting about in the post you responded to; how Parliament here needs to be ironshod beyond what other nations have, to balance out what is an overall lax system here.

Infact most Parliamentary Democracies are based on cultural values, and vary from nation to nation. Northern Europe has Parliaments that are based on their historical and cultural group mindset, and centuries of experience. Thailand needs a different approach to Parliament, which is still a "Debate-Based Democratic Parliament" but which needs more regulation to counterbalance the lets say 'buccaneer spirit' we see here in the political class.

Re; the deaths caused. I was pro the massprotest, the 200k+ people marching for a day. Then they should have gone home. That is a big demo, it is a big statement. Suthep urged them to stay on for weeks, and told them to keep pushing. Then people died. If everyone had gone home, nobody would have died. 1+1=2. Save your he-say / she-say / black shirts / mystery shooters stuff, I got bored of that three years ago. This country is a tinderbox, you don't go throwing matches around.

Democracy street-style is ; hold a massprotest for a day, show the nation you have support, distribute information, then go back to your districts and prepare for the eventual elections.

You are out of your depth on this one, don't make me get my flying monkeys.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Yunla

[Harleys]

Does Thailand have a special institute where they produce their politicians ?

This make George Orwell look like a complete amateur.

sure, not one but thousands ...

Families...

Primary schools...

Highfall schools...

Universal schools ...

all a bit scary, ins't it?

[DK2223]

One of the more interesting points about Suthep is that despite all his years as a top dog in the Dems, he would appear to be now saying that the Democrats are equally corrupt and useless and not fit to govern the Country (a sentiment that I would totally agree with!). Why else would he be calling for his "Peoples' Council" and not for all good men to roll their sleeves up and work for a Dem victory in the polls?

I wonder what little Mark feels about that? Anyone heard a squeek from the Dems recently? Apart from their floundering about like a fish out of water deciding whether to boycot the election, or not as the case may be.

All politicians are by their very nature corrupt, they mostly go in to politics to see what they can get out of it, but at least normally you can get rid of the worst at an election, if an unelected "peoples Council" is put in place there is no way they will give up the power that they will undoubtely aquire, it will then slide into a dictatorship, this will mean either the armed forces will stage another coup to return to a democracy "eventually" or we will all have to suffer becoming an international pariah with the rest of the ASEN countries slowly withdrawing support just in case it becomes a catching "disease" after all no-one likes an infected country on their borders, it has taken decades for Myanmar to become a more acceptable country internationally and that appears to be the direction that Sutep wants to move Thailand despite or because the majority of Thais who are apathetic about politics as all they see is different faces, same corruption who ever is in power. That is what Suthep wants is POWER for himself to make himself rich at the expense of Thailand by any means possible!

I totally agree with you. The thing is that people here or the Thai people don't really understand politics and politicians. They are all dirty in one way or the other no matter who. Like I say in other forum, politics for all the politicians is like money into their pocket. To them if there is no benefits why they choose to be in politic the first place. I have deal with politicians in my country and they are all the same no matter in my country or Thailand. One thing always come first for them is their benefits and their pocket. So the fact is we just need to accept the fact and do the changes with the correct way by not crushing the economy and the people.

Edited December 15, 2013 by DK2223

[waza]

About a week ago, I was talking with a Thai man who is a contractor building an apartment building near where I live and a place I pass on the way to exercise everyday. We happened to begin talking about corruption and he noted that corruption was rampant in Thailand. I replied that corruption is a problem with governments all over the world. He replied that I was from a relatively young country that had not been able to develop corruption as 'way of life' as it does in Thailand. It will take generations to change things as ingrained as corruption is in Thailand. An analogy is racial equality in the US. Lincoln freed the slaves in 1863. When I was a young man in the late 1950's there were still segregated restrooms in the south and segregated school systems in the north and south. Then, 100 years later, came the Civil Rights Act which was followed by considerable unrest and assassinations. Now, the US has a black President and the racist vitriol has yet to cease. Yes, there has been progress but a lot more needs to be done. It seems that so many of the people posting here have this surreal notion that someone will be able to 'snap their finger' or 'flip a switch' and corruption will disappear and Thailand will live by good and righteous democracy ever after. Reform is as real as most of the 'women' who come out of Bangmod Hospital! Democracy is not a fairy tale.

The rule of law has wiped out institutionalised and public racism, sexism in Australia in one generation. In my lifetime we have gone from , "The white Australia policy" to "multiculturalism".