Taking voting rights away from poor and uneducated not the answer: Thai election commissioner

[culicine]

Can this guy run for PM?

[scorecard]

The opening piece, a strong reinforcement for the need for reform and change.

Hopefully the reforms will generate requirements that ultimately reduce the gap, through a civil

society approach where a very large % of the population have a good quality of life through their

own productivity, and not through planned 'just in time' handouts.

Edited December 21, 2013 by scorecard

[scorecard]

The only solution if they don't like the North dominating elections ..... is to divide the country. That is what all this will lead to in the end afterall if they continuously overthrow the elected governments.

'elected'. Are you aiming at humor?

[Dr Bruce]

I remember reading a book many years ago. In The Wet by Neville Shute is considered to be his answer to 1984. Written just after the war and set in 1983 part of the book suggests a voting system that is weighted towards the educated, the experienced and the hard-working.

Everybody got a basic vote and then they were allowed additional votes for things like higher education, Family Comitment and life experience.

The maximum votes carried by any one person was 7. I know that the multi-vote system would never work, but I have always thought that it had some merit.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Dr Bruce

[bigbamboo]

Being rich and educated in Thailand does not make you more intelligent or politically savvy.

You only have to look at the Thai parliament for evidence of that.

[scorecard]

Yellow politicians are just showing their true colors...they want their "precious" old feudal powers back! It is so nice to see these elite, pampered SOBs squirming and throwing tantrums while their powers are being taking away from them.

Thaksin, no matter how corrupted or crooked one thinks he is, was the first to actually do something for the people outside the Thai elite and outside Bangkok. Yellows had centuries to do something about it but they never did! The elite never does.

Unfortunately, these things ebb and flow. While Thailand seems to be going to the right direction slowly, USA for example is going exactly to the opposite direction. Republic is turning into a plutocracy...this struggle is never going to be over. There are always going to be rich elite SOBs who want ALL the power and money and then some.

"Thaksin, no matter how corrupted or crooked one thinks he is, was the first to actually do something for the people outside the Thai elite and outside Bangkok"

Don't agree at all. It's a very simple equation. The paymaster made the (not clever - in fact very simple) realization that there was a very large section of the population that could be manipulated very easily by handouts, as a way to gain power and access to a very very big trough.

There is no evidence whatever that the paymaster had any concern, before he entered politics or after he got into politics for the poor.

[scorecard]

Being rich and educated in Thailand does not make you more intelligent or politically savvy.

You only have to look at the Thai parliament for evidence of that.

Agree, quite a few on the mega rich politicians are not clever in any way at all, just severely lacking

in morals and values and no hesitation to get into massive corruption.

[belg]

only people who pay income tax, i am not talking about VAT

but working and paying tax (less than 2 million out of 60+ million) should be allowed to vote & deceide how their tax money is spent

vote buying would be something from the past

maybe something could finally change

but mai pen rai, will never happen

Edited December 21, 2013 by belg

[Thai at Heart]

Over past weeks, more and more anti-government protesters have been heard saying that perhaps people without a degree or those too poor to pay income tax should not be allowed to vote as they are either too gullible or prone to selling their votes.

As the vast majority of those out there protesting are not rich and do not have degrees I don't see where he gets that one.

They are rich, and they are "well-educated".

Maybe not in your eyes, but they are relatively to the rest of the country.

It is not about an absolute level of wealth or education, but about a relative level compared to "the farmers in the North and North-East".

On the basis that a so called middle class 40 year old Bangkokians graduated Thai high school 20 years ago, they have an equivalent education to about a modern day western 8 year old.

I think we should just admit it, and realise that this country is only smart enough for dictatorship. They are too dumb to realise that you don't secure your freedoms by giving them away.

[edwinchester]

only people who pay income tax, i am not talking about VAT

but working and paying tax (less than 2 million out of 60+ million) should be allowed to vote & deceide how their tax money is spent

vote buying would be something from the past

maybe something could finally change

but mai pen rai, will never happen

So you would deny my wife and her sister in law the right to vote as they are both housewifes?

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited December 21, 2013 by edwinchester

[pisico]

Over past weeks, more and more anti-government protesters have been heard saying that perhaps people without a degree or those too poor to pay income tax should not be allowed to vote as they are either too gullible or prone to selling their votes.

As the vast majority of those out there protesting are not rich and do not have degrees I don't see where he gets that one.

There have been a few that have suggested that but I doubt ant of them are out on the street, rather sitting in their ivory towers thinking only of themselves.

"I don't agree with that," said Somchai, who is in charge of election administration. "Highly educated people can also be selfish and take advantage of society. They can also use their education and knowledge to open up new ways to engage in corruption. The argument that [better educated and wealthier] urban citizens should have more rights than provincial folks is just unacceptable."

He is dead right on that one and we have seen a wonderful example in the last 2 years of the PT Govt

The rest he has got right as well.

However this time round the ordinary people are out there demanding change and are not prepared to leave it to the politicians.

So... Suthep and Abhisit, politicians that during their unelected tenure did nothing to stamp out corruption or pushed for political reform are the only choice?

Suthep and Abhisit are to be trusted (never mind the Palm Oil Scam) because they were once in power, albeit unelected in a Democratic way by the PEOPLE according to the CONSTITUTION.

It gets tiresome and ludicrous the mantra: Thaksin bad. Abhisit, Suthep or any Democrat good.

How many millions of the so called "ordinary people" are on the streets? So the other 63 million Thais do not count. I get it: Bangkok is Thailand to the anti-Thaksinistas pro anything Democrat.

Farangs beware: "I do not trust, respect or like Farang!" Suthep; as he declared his true color to the Media, national and foreign before the elections he miserably lost to Yingluck.

[Timwin]

this isnt the answer, education does not give people the right to vote, being a citizen of the country does. What they need to stop are the populist policies(village fund, rice scam etc) that are being run by the ptp to garner the poors votes.

There is other side of that coin too. Were the yellow harsh policies of favoring only Bangkok (elite) and their lackeys and staging a military coup once in a while to keep their power any better?! It was certainly not.

In the beginning of a democracy rule people often vote for populists but they do learn eventually. BTW, the farmers in the north are not that stupid today, they actually accept money from all of the candidates but vote the way they themselves want anyway. It would be stupid not to accept free money

Edited December 21, 2013 by Timwin

[Mackie]

He is dead right on that one and we have seen a wonderful example in the last 2 years of the PT Govt

The rest he has got right as well.

However this time round the ordinary people are out there demanding change and are not prepared to leave it to the politicians.

So... Suthep and Abhisit, politicians that during their unelected tenure did nothing to stamp out corruption or pushed for political reform are the only choice?

Suthep and Abhisit are to be trusted (never mind the Palm Oil Scam) because they were once in power, albeit unelected in a Democratic way by the PEOPLE according to the CONSTITUTION.

It gets tiresome and ludicrous the mantra: Thaksin bad. Abhisit, Suthep or any Democrat good.

How many millions of the so called "ordinary people" are on the streets? So the other 63 million Thais do not count. I get it: Bangkok is Thailand to the anti-Thaksinistas pro anything Democrat.

Farangs beware: "I do not trust, respect or like Farang!" Suthep; as he declared his true color to the Media, national and foreign before the elections he miserably lost to Yingluck.

That is a common misconception that Abhisit's government did not do anything for Thailand. Abhisit government did more for the benefit of ALL THAIS than any other government before his. It's not about democrats or PTP, it's about having competent people in the important places. People who know how to do the job which will benefit the country, not some guy in Dubai. All Thailand has now is bunch of apparatchiks waiting to receive their orders via Skype. It's ludicrous.

I don't see any problem with Suthep's statement about farangs. It's their country, it's their culture. You should show respect if you want to be respected. Also you should earn respect, not demand it. Same goes for trust.

[Emptyset]

"A hundred to 200 baht means so much to them ... It has become a tradition," he said, referring to the problem of politicians handing out money to poor voters. "The habit of vote-buying in Thailand is getting worse now than in the past."

No one who has studied the issue believes this. It was far worse in the early to mid 90s. People used to believe that voting didn't matter much - all parties were the same - so just vote for the one who gives you the most money. No doubt some people still believe that, but far fewer than before as they've become educated about the democratic process and the benefits it can bring. People also used to be far more superstitious so vote buyers could simply ask them to swear that they'd vote for party x if they accepted the money and they'd believe they had to or they'd be cursed. Some older people might still think that way, but far fewer than before. There's less poverty than before - so how the ECT commissioner can assert that a 100 to 200 baht means so much to them... I think it would've meant far more in the early 90s. And people used to be far more deferential towards phuyai and were likely to follow them if they told them to do something, but that's changing too.

I'm not saying that handouts aren't given. But there is usually money from multiple canvassers, you take the money and still vote for whoever you want. This ECT guy is talking like vote buying affects the overall result, when it's pretty clear it doesn't. Makes me wonder about his credentials for this job - he's basically just parroting the words of the anti-Thaksin people to try to deligitimize the election result. At least he doesn't want to take the vote away from the poor though so that's something. Though if he had said that as an ECT commissioner, he would've provoked a national outcry.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Emptyset

[xminator]

Poor and/or uneducated is not the same as stupid. Your average rice farmer have far more life wisdom and n 9 out of 10 cases smarter then the Paragon-shopping-dads-money.

Democracy - 1 man 1 vote. Its very simple. And of course aggravating for the rich that make the poor poor.

[thailiketoo]

this isnt the answer, education does not give people the right to vote, being a citizen of the country does. What they need to stop are the populist policies(village fund, rice scam etc) that are being run by the ptp to garner the poors votes. If these schemes are stopped and outlawed then it removes the power the ptp/thaksin holds over them. As the article says, the poor vote for who ever is willing to pay them so this needs to stop in the north and south. Until the bribery/vote rigging etc is removed there will never be fair and honest voting in Thailand, it isnt a matter of reds and yellows, the political vote buying has to be stopped before it destroys the country.

Can an educated Bangkok person go to a Red Village and buy votes? Nope.

Can a uneducated Red shirt go to a hi so condo in Bangkok and buy votes? Nope.

I don't see much of a problem here.

I think Red shirts are being paid to vote how they would vote anyway and Yellow shirts are being paid to vote the way they would anyway.

I don't see a problem?

[Anon999]

Yellow politicians are just showing their true colors...they want their "precious" old feudal powers back! It is so nice to see these elite, pampered SOBs squirming and throwing tantrums while their powers are being taking away from them.

Thaksin, no matter how corrupted or crooked one thinks he is, was the first to actually do something for the people outside the Thai elite and outside Bangkok. Yellows had centuries to do something about it but they never did! The elite never does.

Unfortunately, these things ebb and flow. While Thailand seems to be going to the right direction slowly, USA for example is going exactly to the opposite direction. Republic is turning into a plutocracy...this struggle is never going to be over. There are always going to be rich elite SOBs who want ALL the power and money and then some.

Maybe you would be better occupied doing a bit of reading on relatively recent history, before posting. Obviously you do not live in Isaan and haven't been here long enough to know a great deal either.

[Anon999]

this isnt the answer, education does not give people the right to vote, being a citizen of the country does. What they need to stop are the populist policies(village fund, rice scam etc) that are being run by the ptp to garner the poors votes. If these schemes are stopped and outlawed then it removes the power the ptp/thaksin holds over them. As the article says, the poor vote for who ever is willing to pay them so this needs to stop in the north and south. Until the bribery/vote rigging etc is removed there will never be fair and honest voting in Thailand, it isnt a matter of reds and yellows, the political vote buying has to be stopped before it destroys the country.

Can an educated Bangkok person go to a Red Village and buy votes? Nope.

Can a uneducated Red shirt go to a hi so condo in Bangkok and buy votes? Nope.

I don't see much of a problem here.

I think Red shirts are being paid to vote how they would vote anyway and Yellow shirts are being paid to vote the way they would anyway.

I don't see a problem?

In that case why are there 'Red villages'?

[thailiketoo]

They are rich, and they are "well-educated".

Maybe not in your eyes, but they are relatively to the rest of the country.

It is not about an absolute level of wealth or education, but about a relative level compared to "the farmers in the North and North-East".

On the basis that a so called middle class 40 year old Bangkokians graduated Thai high school 20 years ago, they have an equivalent education to about a modern day western 8 year old.

I think we should just admit it, and realise that this country is only smart enough for dictatorship. They are too dumb to realise that you don't secure your freedoms by giving them away.

That would make sense if the majority were rich and educated. However it is the rich and educated elite who want the government by committee instead of election. Which invalidates your point.

The poor folk don't want the rich folk to take any more freedoms away and go back to the system pre 1905 system.

[thailiketoo]

this isnt the answer, education does not give people the right to vote, being a citizen of the country does. What they need to stop are the populist policies(village fund, rice scam etc) that are being run by the ptp to garner the poors votes. If these schemes are stopped and outlawed then it removes the power the ptp/thaksin holds over them. As the article says, the poor vote for who ever is willing to pay them so this needs to stop in the north and south. Until the bribery/vote rigging etc is removed there will never be fair and honest voting in Thailand, it isnt a matter of reds and yellows, the political vote buying has to be stopped before it destroys the country.

Can an educated Bangkok person go to a Red Village and buy votes? Nope.

Can a uneducated Red shirt go to a hi so condo in Bangkok and buy votes? Nope.

I don't see much of a problem here.

I think Red shirts are being paid to vote how they would vote anyway and Yellow shirts are being paid to vote the way they would anyway.

I don't see a problem?

In that case why are there 'Red villages'?

Because the people don't trust the folk from Bangkok to run things.

[partington]

If vote buying allows you to win an election, why don't Suthep and his followers, who represent the wealthiest sections of the Thai population (in general statistical terms: I am not saying all his supporters are rich, as I know some of them aren't) just win the next election by buying more votes?

This is an easy solution, no?

If you argue that they have too much integrity to do this, I have to say that their appearance and reputation do not make this claim credible.

For the record, I think that choosing between the Shinawat clan and the Democrat/Suthep anti-democrat forces is like deciding whether you prefer a louse or a flea.

Edited December 21, 2013 by partington

[pisico]

He is dead right on that one and we have seen a wonderful example in the last 2 years of the PT Govt

The rest he has got right as well.

However this time round the ordinary people are out there demanding change and are not prepared to leave it to the politicians.

So... Suthep and Abhisit, politicians that during their unelected tenure did nothing to stamp out corruption or pushed for political reform are the only choice?

Suthep and Abhisit are to be trusted (never mind the Palm Oil Scam) because they were once in power, albeit unelected in a Democratic way by the PEOPLE according to the CONSTITUTION.

It gets tiresome and ludicrous the mantra: Thaksin bad. Abhisit, Suthep or any Democrat good.

How many millions of the so called "ordinary people" are on the streets? So the other 63 million Thais do not count. I get it: Bangkok is Thailand to the anti-Thaksinistas pro anything Democrat.

Farangs beware: "I do not trust, respect or like Farang!" Suthep; as he declared his true color to the Media, national and foreign before the elections he miserably lost to Yingluck.

That is a common misconception that Abhisit's government did not do anything for Thailand. Abhisit government did more for the benefit of ALL THAIS than any other government before his. It's not about democrats or PTP, it's about having competent people in the important places. People who know how to do the job which will benefit the country, not some guy in Dubai. All Thailand has now is bunch of apparatchiks waiting to receive their orders via Skype. It's ludicrous.

I don't see any problem with Suthep's statement about farangs. It's their country, it's their culture. You should show respect if you want to be respected. Also you should earn respect, not demand it. Same goes for trust.

You are guilty of Sophistry (look it up), Respect is not the issue. Neither has been questioned or demanded. Your attempt to deviate the focus of the issue is a non sequitur. If you like the Democrats because Mark comes from a rich family (daddy is one of the big wigs at CP Foods and he is an Eaton graduate), just say you think he is more qualified than others. As to what he did to improve Thailand under his tenure: please, enumerate specifically what he did to stamp out corruption, improve the life of Thais upcountry, etc.. Do not be vague or generic. Simply because you "feel" he is good is not a factual reason. Care to comment on the Palm Oil Scam?

[kunnatee]

The solution then is to improve the education system.

Took 2 pages for someone to say it.

Democracy only works if people are educated.

And most would agree that democracy is the least worst type of government

So the real answer is to educate people, not to end democracy.

Same reasoning with the distribution of money. No one works more than 24 hours a day. Even though the pay should also represent the qualification, we're already a few zeros past the acceptable difference.

Of course, in Thailand, improving education means putting an h bomb and rebuilding from scratch. But since that's the only way, it has to be done.

[wave]

The whole concept of adjusting the balance of power via voting rights is doomed.

I cant imagine your home countries would consider such a move, even though some posters here would no doubt be in favour of it.

To deny or limit the right to vote based on income or education is ridiculous....It's no different from removing rights from someone due to the colour of their skin, sexual or religious preference.

What we have in Thailand is a developing Democracy.

We conveniently forget that countries with more mature political systems also went through similar struggles to get to where they are now.

In fact they continue to adjust to achieve a better balanced form of government.

Thailand should try to allow the democratic process to play out.

Unhindered by a return to feudalism or coups it would develop.

The anti-government protesters should be demanding more from the opposition since their failure to secure enough of the popular vote is the root of the current problem.

The Democrats have been incapable of forming a robust opposition that can challenge the current administration.

In fact it hasn't done this for over 20 years which predates any of the Taksin controlled governments.

It's not about vote buying, lack of education, "populist" policies or Taksin.

It's a weak opposition that lacks popular appeal and appears incapable of reforming itself to meet that challenge.

[thailiketoo]

The solution then is to improve the education system.

Took 2 pages for someone to say it.

Democracy only works if people are educated.

And most would agree that democracy is the least worst type of government

So the real answer is to educate people, not to end democracy.

Same reasoning with the distribution of money. No one works more than 24 hours a day. Even though the pay should also represent the qualification, we're already a few zeros past the acceptable difference.

Of course, in Thailand, improving education means putting an h bomb and rebuilding from scratch. But since that's the only way, it has to be done.

Codswallop and balderdash. Do you all think the newly freed slaves of the US of A had enough education to tell a good politician from a bad un? Course they did.

If all of you rich Bangkok guys want to git elected get yo butt up North and tell those folks in person why ya'all will stop stealing money from them.

Ya'all tried to buy them votes up thare before but that dint work out so well as they rode you out of town on a rail. So instead of insultin them folk try to convince them they will get a better deal from you all insted of them all.

[Thai at Heart]

They are rich, and they are "well-educated".

Maybe not in your eyes, but they are relatively to the rest of the country.

It is not about an absolute level of wealth or education, but about a relative level compared to "the farmers in the North and North-East".

On the basis that a so called middle class 40 year old Bangkokians graduated Thai high school 20 years ago, they have an equivalent education to about a modern day western 8 year old.

I think we should just admit it, and realise that this country is only smart enough for dictatorship. They are too dumb to realise that you don't secure your freedoms by giving them away.

That would make sense if the majority were rich and educated. However it is the rich and educated elite who want the government by committee instead of election. Which invalidates your point.

The poor folk don't want the rich folk to take any more freedoms away and go back to the system pre 1905 system.

The rich and educated make up probably 1% of the country.

[RedNIvar]

How about they just permanently take voting rights away from anyone who sells their vote?

And you would know that, How?

[wprime]

The solution then is to improve the education system.

Took 2 pages for someone to say it.

Democracy only works if people are educated.

And most would agree that democracy is the least worst type of government

So the real answer is to educate people, not to end democracy.

Same reasoning with the distribution of money. No one works more than 24 hours a day. Even though the pay should also represent the qualification, we're already a few zeros past the acceptable difference.

Of course, in Thailand, improving education means putting an h bomb and rebuilding from scratch. But since that's the only way, it has to be done.

There are cultural limitations of improving the education system, specifically the notion of thinking for yourself vs listening to your elders. At what point should Thailand suppress its culture for the sake of democratisation? The younger generations of Thailand are already sufficiently educated to vote but they are bound by the notion that their parents are wiser and therefore should listen to their parents opinion on who they should vote for rather than their own beliefs.

[thailiketoo]

They are rich, and they are "well-educated".

Maybe not in your eyes, but they are relatively to the rest of the country.

It is not about an absolute level of wealth or education, but about a relative level compared to "the farmers in the North and North-East".

On the basis that a so called middle class 40 year old Bangkokians graduated Thai high school 20 years ago, they have an equivalent education to about a modern day western 8 year old.

I think we should just admit it, and realise that this country is only smart enough for dictatorship. They are too dumb to realise that you don't secure your freedoms by giving them away.

That would make sense if the majority were rich and educated. However it is the rich and educated elite who want the government by committee instead of election. Which invalidates your point.

The poor folk don't want the rich folk to take any more freedoms away and go back to the system pre 1905 system.

The rich and educated make up probably 1% of the country.

Codswallow. A number of higher education institutes have recently increased opportunity for various types of students to study at the higher level. In 2007, the Education Council estimated that the number of new students enrolled in bachelors programs between 2007 and 2016 will be approximately 500,000 each year, resulting in between 300,000 to 400,000 new graduates per annum.

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/print.php?id=2435

[thailiketoo]

How about they just permanently take voting rights away from anyone who sells their vote?

And you would know that, How?

If you sell your vote for someone who you were going to vote for anyway is that selling your vote?