Yingluck presents 'road map' for national reform, rivals unconvinced

[FangFerang]

I have to wonder at this stage, whether she regrets unilaterally elevating herself and party above the courts, siccing the chief of DSI like a rabid gun-dog against her critics, allowing a fugitive at large to promote the chief of police, and doing nothing to stop her brother ramming through his amnesty bill which even Stevie Wonder could have seen would lead to mayhem. Does her vapid thought process even allow regret?

Any road map must have a way of limiting a persons and their families terms of power. Stopping this ridiculous cult of personality is crucial if Thailand wants to avoid a civil war which would result in a north/south split. Seeing as she and her entire family and party have less than zero credibility, I'm not surprised serious observers remain unconvinced as per the OP.

I agree, and there is a cultural roadblock here. Thais say, "Kor tot" which means 'please forgive me'. That is vastly different than saying "I am sorry." Compromise means losing face. Both sides could sit down and come up with a solution, but neither side is willing to do that--they say they want reforms, but I do not believe them at all.

BTW, the Stevie Wonder line was well-crafted.

Thanks for being lucid and level-handed about the side you support.

I really don't have a side in this. I am not Thai. I do, however, assert that both sides are toys in the attic, barking at the moon, gone 'round the bend power hungry.

Unfortunately, that also describes 95% of politicians worldwide.

Sincerely,

Me

Edited December 22, 2013 by FangFerang

[lostinsurin]

Yinglucks rivals are sounding increasingly hysterical and desperate.

They have backed themselves into a corner and are willing to do a murder suicide as they go through their death throes.

Suthep only has hatred and a facist, undemocratic proposal, thats why most International observers and diplomats have come out in support of Yinglucks direction.

What you clearly don't understand is that it is YL and the PTP who are in their death throes mate.

The PDRC and the Dems are actually getting stronger by the day. They have won almost every battle in this war, and they will win the end game.

Under Yingluck's plan, all parties would have to pledge that the new government holds power for only two years, to see through the national reform process. Its mandate would be the creation of the reform council to work side by side with the new government. The reform council would represent peoples from all walks of life - both at local and national level - along with those representing various professions.

That is almost a copy and paste of Suthep's words, that is the act of a dying establishment, backed into a corner.... is when they can't even come up with their own ideas.

As for 'fascist' and 'undemocratic'... you just summed up YL and PTP beautifully.

"That is almost a copy and paste of Suthep's words",

"they can't even come up with their own ideas".

So why is Suthep unhappy?

Good old Nibbles, blind as usual.

Edited December 22, 2013 by lostinsurin

[BuddyPinkham]

i think all political parties should be dissolved before the election

candidates should be presented on their own merits

they should not be able to declare an affiliation to any political party past or present

no colours of any party's can be displayed

all should wear just anonymous white shirts

voters will have to take an interest in the candidate then instead of just blindly voting for a person of colour

you forget to add the 500bt payment for voting

[kingalfred]

Yinglucks rivals are sounding increasingly hysterical and desperate.

They have backed themselves into a corner and are willing to do a murder suicide as they go through their death throes.

Suthep only has hatred and a facist, undemocratic proposal, thats why most International observers and diplomats have come out in support of Yinglucks direction.

Had a dream did you?

[TinoThailand]

She's also not pretty anymore on the outside... Throw away all these time of life just for money, poor girl

[Alwyn]

From the BBC

"

Defense spokesman Col Thanatip Sawangsaeng said the army "is ready to support the Election Commission in organising the elections when asked".

But a military source has told the BBC that privately the army believes it would be better for the election to be delayed - as sought by the opposition parties."

Privately the military are getting involved even more?

How are they getting involved?

by making policitical statements - even if only opinions - to World media? Military is there to protect the country from foreign threats/enemies and should be totally neutral regarding politics, it's none of their business - they work for the King not any particular political party. If the military were totally neutral they would not be making supportive statements would they? That's how they're getting involved.

Your first half I agree with especially for HM. But it is their business if the BIB are useless to stop the unrest (same BKK years ago) and it gets to anarchy it has to get involved. Imagine the last time what happened before the army came in----MOB RULE granted people were killed from all sides, but how many more would have been killed if the army had not intervened ????? not in favour of the coup BUT not much other choice.

Had the police stopped the red mobilization massing down on BKK and they could control, non of that fiasco would have happened----I blame the police for most of that. Good at collecting money BAD at control.

I agree wholeheartedly. It's the military's job to protect from outside forces (so to speak) and the law enforcement's job to keep peace and order within the country. definitely the police at fault now and then. Trouble is when it comes to corruption police win hands down, they seem to be the lackies of whoever wileds the dollar in their direction. It might help if they were paid a salary the reflects their position and they didn't NEED to rely on tea money etc. We'll never know.

[Alwyn]

From the BBC

"

Defense spokesman Col Thanatip Sawangsaeng said the army "is ready to support the Election Commission in organising the elections when asked".

But a military source has told the BBC that privately the army believes it would be better for the election to be delayed - as sought by the opposition parties."

Privately the military are getting involved even more?

How are they getting involved?

by making policitical statements - even if only opinions - to World media? Military is there to protect the country from foreign threats/enemies and should be totally neutral regarding politics, it's none of their business - they work for the King not any particular political party. If the military were totally neutral they would not be making supportive statements would they? That's how they're getting involved.

They're getting involved by a "military source" sharing an opinion????? Right ......

Exactly. When the military share their opinion (he did not say "this is only my personal opinion" did he) it thus becomes their standing within the mess that is ravaging the country, they have just told the World where they stand on things. If they had said "we think Thaksin should return and take over again" that is an opinion which if we go by your look on things, they are perfectly qualified to share but how would they look to the World and the locals? They can have their opinions but need to keep them in their pants. Politics is for politicians supposedly for the benefit or good of the people. Soldiers are for fighting. Policing is for the police.

[Scamper]

With each public statement that Yingluck makes - and they're now appearing on a daily basis - the government betrays a weaker hand. It is truly extraordinary, because PTP are now poised - particularly in light of the Democratic party boycott - to win an unprecedented, massive landslide. And yet what does this statement include ? A commitment from all parties for the government's survival. And Yingluck's promise of a reform process - given the kind of " reforms " PTP has considered vital to take the country forward over the last two and a half years - it's little wonder why people are simply not buying it.

[GeorgeO]

Everything has been laid quite clearly.

Yingluck has basically offered most of what was asked. It appears that by doing so it has thrown Suthep and his Dem sheep in to confusion and now veiled threats of violence from the deputy leader of the Dems, they are still relying on military intervention as the only way back in to power.

Reform is needed, Yingluck is offering it in what appears to be a very open way, it is obvious now that the Dems are that in name only,shame on them!

Not so...!! The emphasis in YL's offer is that elections must come first...which "potentially" gives them one final dig at the trough, a very dangerous outcome for Thailand!

Forget your discussion about Suthep and Dem sheep; there are tens of thousands of anti-government protesters out there who have no love for either. They want to be assured that reforms are negotiated and put in place immediately, and they are very wary of waiting until after the PTP, and Thaksin, get their foot back in the door again.

All of the current turmoil is about getting the Thaksinistra out of Thai politics and proceeding down a path to true democracy. What YL is offering doesn't have an ounce of real credibility...!!

[craigt3365]

Everything has been laid quite clearly.

Yingluck has basically offered most of what was asked. It appears that by doing so it has thrown Suthep and his Dem sheep in to confusion and now veiled threats of violence from the deputy leader of the Dems, they are still relying on military intervention as the only way back in to power.

Reform is needed, Yingluck is offering it in what appears to be a very open way, it is obvious now that the Dems are that in name only,shame on them!

Not so...!! The emphasis in YL's offer is that elections must come first...which "potentially" gives them one final dig at the trough, a very dangerous outcome for Thailand!

Forget your discussion about Suthep and Dem sheep; there are tens of thousands of anti-government protesters out there who have no love for either. They want to be assured that reforms are negotiated and put in place immediately, and they are very wary of waiting until after the PTP, and Thaksin, get their foot back in the door again.

All of the current turmoil is about getting the Thaksinistra out of Thai politics and proceeding down a path to true democracy. What YL is offering doesn't have an ounce of real credibility...!!

I think a lot of the concern is regarding the ability of the current government to quickly enact the amnesty bill that was put on the back burner. Which would white wash not only Thaksin, but also Yingluck and all of the PTP MPs. They all have upcoming court cases. Some quite serious. If they would have 100% killed that bill, the protests wouldn't have happened. IMHO.

[jcb2001]

Thailand needs some reasonable, level headed people to be part of this reform process, Suthep and his bloodthirsty zombie sheep are the most unbalanced segment of Thai political society, they should be banned from any politcal contribution until they can calm down and behave like adults.

I have quite a few friends attending the current protests. They are not fans of Suthep, but want changes. And they are hardly bloodthirsty nor zombie sheep.

Ask your friends how they would feel if Thaksin took a bullet. Most Suthep supporters I have talked to (despite their good education) would celebrate. Sickening but true. Does this make them bloodthirsty ? Perhaps.

The only change they want is to get rid of Thaksin. It's not very sophisticated and its not a solution.

They have tried every trick in the book over the last 10 years without success, and now they are getting desperate and dangerous.

You are 100% right when you say the only change they want is to get rid of Thaksin. That my friend would solve everything!

[NCFC]

Yinglucks rivals are sounding increasingly hysterical and desperate.

They have backed themselves into a corner and are willing to do a murder suicide as they go through their death throes.

Suthep only has hatred and a facist, undemocratic proposal, thats why most International observers and diplomats have come out in support of Yinglucks direction.

You really need to get out more. If anyone is sounding desperate it is the PTP and their infantile leader. I am neither a Suthep nor a Shiniwatra fan but the current protests which are far removed from the fascism shown by the Red mob in 2010.only serves to underline that many in Thailand have simply had enough of the corruption, lies ,deceit and malfeasance which is a staple diet served by the current government. Furthermore Yingluck does not have a direction for these foreign observers and diplomats to support. She never had and she never will. Just more PTP rhetoric and bullshit in a dying attempt to save her and her family's privilege and place in this Oligarchical regime that they have created for their own benefit.

Significant reforms are needed to put this country on a path to future development and the current government have neither the intellect, interest or ability to achieve anything close to acceptable governance

s

Of course foreign diplomats do not support individual politicians as that would be them becoming involved in partisan politics. What they can, and have, done is make statements supporting the democratic process which Yingluck is upholding and which Suthep wishes to usurp.

Many are upset at the corruption levels but there are a lot of middle-class beurocrats out protesting on the streets today who are actively benefitting from corruption. I know because some of them are my in-laws!

[scorecard]

She's the PM (or is she?) but she had avoided parliamentary sitting many times, therefore no contribution to the debates etc. And even when she has attended she hasn't answered any tough questions, always deferred to her leeches.

She's gone abroad numerous times on missions like trade agreements with Montenegro. What a joke. She stands up in the back blocks of China and tell untruths and spin about how she is the champion of democracy in Thailand, not even realizing that the country where she's speaking from is pretty nasty and way off any intention, by it's leaders, to be anything close to a democracy. A sick joke.

And even worse is the disrespect this shows to the Thai people. She thinks they will swallow her lack of capability, lack of attendance, and lack of contribution, and lack of truth.

And now, massive demonstrations and she's campaigning in the NE. What a joke, what an insult to the Thai people.

[Kered]

Everything has been laid quite clearly.

Yingluck has basically offered most of what was asked. It appears that by doing so it has thrown Suthep and his Dem sheep in to confusion and now veiled threats of violence from the deputy leader of the Dems, they are still relying on military intervention as the only way back in to power.

Reform is needed, Yingluck is offering it in what appears to be a very open way, it is obvious now that the Dems are that in name only,shame on them!

If she was genuine with her intentions she would have come out with this proposal many months ago. She now has her back against the wall and will propose anything that will keep her and the family in power.

[shiok]

YL is also commited to sneak amnesty bill for the sake

of her corrupted brother so if she is so "commited" to

the nation, a sincere and honest hunan will

step down without any hesitation, isn't becos

her family does not want to face the possibilty

of not being able to rob the country any further?

?

[FangFerang]

The numbers are way down. On both sides. The dems are frightening the majority with autocratic rule. The Shins have disappointed everyone, including their own constituents.

A contract seems like a good idea, if people sign it and are legally bound to adhere.

The devil is in the details. I for one hope they solve this with all concerned having a say in policy. Both sides are very far from the Middle Way that the Lord Buddha espoused. The see saw is broken, and it seems neither side wants balance.

Stop this stonewalling, please. People are going to get hurt if you cannot compromise.

[mikebell]

As expected both sides will not move an inch toward each other. Then the only way out would be a caretaker government by the military? Last coup the generals found out they couldn't run the country either.

So it's waiting for a clean charismatic newbie to make the change? Poor, poor Thailand.

Here's an interesting (& unlikely idea) - the people's council would consist of five farangs and four Thais to replicate, in reverse, Thai business practice. Naturally the farangs would be incorruptible; immune to offers of money; women; and any other temptations that flesh is heir to. All meetings would be conducted in English to exclude Yingluck thus furthering the Thai pursuit of the Holy Grail; competence in the universal language of Justice and Economics.

Naturally the farangs would need to be over fifty to qualify for a year's retirement visa; they will thus have the wisdom of age.

I am not doing much at the moment; obviously!

[FangFerang]

Thailand needs some reasonable, level headed people to be part of this reform process, Suthep and his bloodthirsty zombie sheep are the most unbalanced segment of Thai political society, they should be banned from any politcal contribution until they can calm down and behave like adults.

Likewise, YL and PT should be banned for trampling over the constitution and blatantly disobeying the highest courts of the land, while scheming 100% of the time on how to bring a convicted felon back to power.

I agree. What baffles me is that the 'roadmap' is discussed but not published. Suthep talks about reforms, too, and likewise gives people no specific details beyond taking power and reforming an ancient culture with a modern bandage he will personally create in a year, or two, or three, or four...or...never.

I find both sides to be very suspicious about not being definite about this central, critical, and obvious point. My question is: "Okay, what will you do if you succeed?" There has to be a Middle Way between 'rulership of the mob' and 'autocratic dominion'. There has to be. If not, then people will die, not some faceless and soulless persons but our brothers and sisters, our fathers and our mothers, our children and our grandchildren, our colleagues and neighbors, and maybe even ourselves. This is no trifling matter.

If neither side gives detailed approaches, the public and international community will think they are merely grandstanding. Contrary to popular TV belief, Thais are not stupid.

This is wrong. These contestants have not lost face. They will not compromise and therefore have no face at all.

Perhaps Thailand will find a solution. Most of us farangs hope for this (I hope most do more than wager on a side). This is not a rugby match. This is lives and loves and the serious aspirations of human beings at stake whose existence is just as important as my own.

Resume one-sided rants. That part is tragically amusing.

Edited December 22, 2013 by FangFerang

[FangFerang]

As expected both sides will not move an inch toward each other. Then the only way out would be a caretaker government by the military? Last coup the generals found out they couldn't run the country either.

So it's waiting for a clean charismatic newbie to make the change? Poor, poor Thailand.

Here's an interesting (& unlikely idea) - the people's council would consist of five farangs and four Thais to replicate, in reverse, Thai business practice. Naturally the farangs would be incorruptible; immune to offers of money; women; and any other temptations that flesh is heir to. All meetings would be conducted in English to exclude Yingluck thus furthering the Thai pursuit of the Holy Grail; competence in the universal language of Justice and Economics.

Naturally the farangs would need to be over fifty to qualify for a year's retirement visa; they will thus have the wisdom of age.

I am not doing much at the moment; obviously!

This is brilliant comedy. I would give you an approving grade, but all students pass here anyway.

[yellow1red1]

one [Reform] would be to REALLY outlaw all political parties. Before dissing, read what Washington thought and wrote 200 years ago.

It comes off like a prophesy. ""quote George""" [political parties must be restrained in a popularly elected government because of their tendency to distract the government from their duties, create unfounded jealousies among groups and regions, raise false alarms amongst the people, promote riots and insurrection, and provide foreign nations and interests access to the government where they can impose their will upon the country. Moreover, Washington makes the case that "the alternate domination" of one party over another and coinciding efforts to exact revenge upon their opponents have led to horrible atrocities, and "is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism." From Washington's perspective and judgment, the tendency of political parties toward permanent despotism is because they eventually and "gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual."]

The People would excercise their Rights to Assemble on Issues, not under a Thumb, [seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual] nor by Occupying Concrete. [promote riots and insurrection]

Like Washington said... political parties will continue to hog tie 'democrazy'

[yellow1red1]

another Reform, would be a means test for Candidates. They would require experience, ability and a clean record [before] being allowed to be Candidates. A Joint 2 House Committee would over see this process, firmly and fairly. The Approval, swearing in that the Elected recieve, now, automatically, after the Election, that Same Approval would be a requirement, before being put on the Ballot.

Oh, ZERO, campaign spending allowed, too. All Town Hall Meetings and and equal media interviews and Discussions would be supplied by this Joint Election Commission, made up of TWO Houses.

<<< If you grasp the Concept here,,, there is a Whole WHACK of players/thugs that we will never see on those whanky Posters, again.... unless, mebbe, they REFORM by becoming Monks for a few years.

[yellow1red1]

one other [Reform] that democrazy needs, not only in Siam, but the West too, The Politicians should Collect Taxes but not have Spending Powers. This is the ROOT Cause of why Communism, DemoCrazy and all other, Past, Systems very rarely work for all of us.

There [should] be a, sort of, Techno-meritocracy House that are the Civil Managers. With this House not having Collection Powers and the Peoples' House not having Spending Powers, the PROBLEM """Power""". is removed from the Equation, from the Field.

By Design, only Duty and Resonsibility can exist in the Offices. The 2 Houses would have strong, fair, friendly purview over each in Corruption-proof poltical architecture that no other, past, system has ever been able to deliver with any consistency. They all depend on dumb luck as to who gets into those Offices of [Fill Their boots].

Then, as the famous Siamese Monk, Buddhadasa, envisioned; humans could take some strides towards being as 'civilized' as bees and ants.

[yellow1red1]

one other [Reform] that democrazy needs, not only in Siam, but the West too, The Politicians should Collect Taxes but not have Spending Powers. This is the ROOT Cause of why Communism, DemoCrazy and all other, Past, Systems very rarely work for all of us.

There [should] be a, sort of, Techno-meritocracy House that are the Civil Managers. With this House not having Collection Powers and the Peoples' House not having Spending Powers, the PROBLEM """Power""". is removed from the Equation, from the Field.

By Design, only Duty and Resonsibility can exist in the Offices. The 2 Houses would have strong, fair, friendly purview over each in Corruption-proof poltical architecture that no other, past, system has ever been able to deliver with any consistency. They all depend on dumb luck as to who gets into those Offices of [Fill Their boots].

Then, as the famous Siamese Monk, Buddhadasa, envisioned; humans could take some strides towards being as 'civilized' as bees and ants.

if we ever found a bee hive where 1% of the bees hoarded 40% of the honey, we would think them so, very, diseased, as bad as humans.

PS,,, for the record the Above Reforms are part of the New Amendments I have been proposing for the American Constitution. Jesse Ventura, who wrote Reblooldlicans and Democryps would [get] the NO parties part. What he doesn't, yet, understand, is there won;t be A President or Governors. The Elected House CAN be equal because they won't Administer. Our [Leaders] will be the Civil Managers. The watch DOGS will be all of the Companies who bid on the Government works.

Edited December 22, 2013 by yellow1red1

[Mario2008]

1 post promoting violence removed.

Please keep it civil and although the weather is getting colder, there is no need to warm-up the political situation.

[smedly]

reforms like free speech and free media

why are there no reports of the protests today in Bangkok ?

Zero Zilch Nothing

[Ricardo]

reforms like free speech and free media

why are there no reports of the protests today in Bangkok ?

Zero Zilch Nothing

Plenty of one-liners, and the odd photo, on the 'Thailand Live 22nd December' thread.

[metisdead]

Copyright, Truthout. May not be reprinted without permission.

A post in violation of fair use policy has been removed.

[siampolee]

The problem is that any statement emanating from Yingluck has invariably started life in one o t he multiple mindsets of her brother ''the puppet master.''

Thaksin does not believe in any generally recognized principle of democracy, justice and political morality. He uses the rhetoric associated with those ideals to his own ends and to restrain and control his personal political party the P.T.P. and its coalition partners.Of course the rhetoric keeps changing just as the skins of his assorted political party incarnations have done to ensure his survival and the completion of his plans to establish a new ruling political dynasty . ( in plain English, ''A Dictatorship.)

Now this proposed road map is far to late and the directions are somewhat vague a panacea for the electorate so as to hopefully buy time on the political clock of Thailand. The spring on that clock is running down and now desperation has set in.

The calls for the dissolving of the Democrat party have been heeded by the Democrats therefore their withdrawal from the general election process has given both Thaksin and the P.T.P. that which he and they wished for therein is the problem.The P.T.P. thus Thaksin in truth are going to be in the seat of power as the government of the day

The ensuing economic and political storm that is about to hit Thailand courtesy of the last administrations policies would be an ideal smoke screen to actually divert a national reform into a dead end political reform street Indeed the map drawing and reading skills are an optical sleigh of hand and it has been well thought out diversionary tactic.

However it would seem as if the Thai electorate have taken note of the diversion and road-closed signs and decided to explore those areas themselves thus the true facts are coming out.

The political road repair team from Thaksin is too little, too late and too shoddy

Rather puts me in mind of the delightful series ''Boys from the Black Stuff.''.

Edited December 22, 2013 by siampolee

[fab4]

The problem is that any statement emanating from Yingluck has invariably started life in one o t he multiple mindsets of her brother ''the puppet master.''

Thaksin does not believe in any generally recognized principle of democracy, justice and political morality. He uses the rhetoric associated with those ideals to his own ends and to restrain and control his personal political party the P.T.P. and its coalition partners.Of course the rhetoric keeps changing just as the skins of his assorted political party incarnations have done to ensure his survival and the completion of his plans to establish a new ruling political dynasty . ( in plain English, ''A Dictatorship.)

Now this proposed road map is far to late and the directions are somewhat vague a panacea for the electorate so as to hopefully buy time on the political clock of Thailand. The spring on that clock is running down and now desperation has set in.

The calls for the dissolving of the Democrat party have been heeded by the Democrats therefore their withdrawal from the general election process has given both Thaksin and the P.T.P. that which he and they wished for therein is the problem.The P.T.P. thus Thaksin in truth are going to be in the seat of power as the government of the day

The ensuing economic and political storm that is about to hit Thailand courtesy of the last administrations policies would be an ideal smoke screen to actually divert a national reform into a dead end political reform street Indeed the map drawing and reading skills are an optical sleigh of hand and it has been well thought out diversionary tactic.

However it would seem as if the Thai electorate have taken note of the diversion and road-closed signs and decided to explore those areas themselves thus the true facts are coming out.

The political road repair team from Thaksin is too little, too late and too shoddy

Rather puts me in mind of the delightful series ''Boys from the Black Stuff.''.

Is it possible for you to write a post that does not use endless mindless metaphors? It does not make your posts more eloquent or disguise deeper meanings. It's just plain annoying.

[siampolee]

fab4 post # 91.

Is it possible for you to write a post that does not use endless mindless metaphors? It does not make your posts more eloquent or disguise deeper meanings. It's just plain annoying.

Simple answer to a simple person.

Don't read them,.Also beware if it annoys you your blood pressure might be rising.

Anyway when you are a mod perhaps we might bow to your constant demands for replies and attention.

Trouble is dear boy, the truth always hurts you doesn't it?