Constitution Court opens first hearing of 2-trillion baht loan bill

[wolfmanjack]

I hope they are able to derail this bill.

If you want to invest in infrastructure that is good, but make good plans and make sure there is accountability. Doing it off the books only invites even more graft and the PTP is corrupt enough as it is.

Everyone knows that this loan was also to support the rice scam.

I have no problems with investments if opponents are allowed to check the spending.. not like this.

You know, they're still paying off the debt created during the 1997 crash. <deleted> are they thinking about by taking on another 2T ฿ in additional debt? The only upside I see is that the baht will be debased faster against the dollar (euro, pound, etc), well, at least for awhile. Any actual infrastructure repairs will be cosmetic or politically motivated while making the amart richer in the process. How about limited access (clover-leaf onramps and offramps) super-highways spanning North to South and East to West with funds set aside for the purchase of highway patrol cars and Westernize police training for traffic control and the enforcement of moving violations. That might actually save a few lives. Wait a minute! I lost my mind...it's about the money. Never mind.

Haven't you heard? Thakisn paid the 1997 debt off early with his own money.

[connda]

I hope they are able to derail this bill.

If you want to invest in infrastructure that is good, but make good plans and make sure there is accountability. Doing it off the books only invites even more graft and the PTP is corrupt enough as it is.

Everyone knows that this loan was also to support the rice scam.

I have no problems with investments if opponents are allowed to check the spending.. not like this.

You know, they're still paying off the debt created during the 1997 crash. <deleted> are they thinking about by taking on another 2T ฿ in additional debt? The only upside I see is that the baht will be debased faster against the dollar (euro, pound, etc), well, at least for awhile. Any actual infrastructure repairs will be cosmetic or politically motivated while making the amart richer in the process. How about limited access (clover-leaf onramps and offramps) super-highways spanning North to South and East to West with funds set aside for the purchase of highway patrol cars and Westernize police training for traffic control and the enforcement of moving violations. That might actually save a few lives. Wait a minute! I lost my mind...it's about the money. Never mind.

Haven't you heard? Thakisn paid the 1997 debt off early with his own money.

Yeah, he probably paid it off with rehypothecated derivatives underwritten by the Goldman Sach's prop desk on margin that were tied to future Infrastructure Projects slated for approximately 2014. Doesn't Lloyd Blankfein, Jamie Dimon, and friends have their fingers in just about every pot globally? I love Matt Taibbi's quote - "The first thing you need to know about Goldman Sachs is that it's everywhere. The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money." That's about par for the course for the ventures of any of the 'elite' billionaires of today's world. Mr. T included.

Edited January 8, 2014 by connda

[hellodolly]

Hopefully the court judges with a variety of parliamentary requirements to be met in the future, no matter who is in power at the moment.

Like for all future budgeting processes they make it compulsory for all future governments, that

- the use of money for project proposals are accurately represented in detail and coherent on the last baht.

- the use of money for project proposals is described in detail for all people publicly documented and visible

- Public monthly or quarterly reports on Finance and project progresses.

- Public invitation for project proposals and at least three competitive compare offers.

- Project completion reports including all expenses with receipts.

- a strong supervisory committee composed of members is formed by all parties,

to control the entire investment process without disabilities and time delay restrictions.

The results of the process and progress checks are presented to the parliament.

The members of the supervisory body should rotate so that corruption is impossible or more difficult.

When public funds are used, then the public has the right to see what the representatives of the people plan to do with the money and how it was used.

It must be prevented that a country can be completely plundered by a few unethical people just because they are currently in power.

Democracy requires transparency and not dubious vote in the middle of the night for the largest credit since the existing of Thailand,

with a term of 50 years. In fact, affected at least three generations in a row.

With compound interest, it is then 6 trillion baht.

This government has no ethics and no morals to society.

I agree with all that you have said.

I would like to add 2 things

1 that the need for the projects is there and

2 that there is a feasibility study on whether they are possible.

I believe the Chinese had already ruled out a high speed train from Bangkok to Chiang Mai as being impracticable.

I liked what one poster had written the last time this was up. They said that if the Government would just not borrow the money and put the interest they would have had to pay on it for 11 or 12 years away. They would have enough to pay cash on the barrel head for it. and not saddle three generations with bills for it.

Yes there is a need for some improvements and they should first be looking at getting every thing they have now up to proper standards. I believe the projected loss on the rice scam is close to a trillion baht.

I can not imagine any court other than a kangaroo court OKing a loan like that with the sketchy ill thought out proposal for what to do with the money.

A little of topic but I wonder if the PTP would still want the loan if the election happens on Feb 2 and they wind up on the out side looking in?

Just idle thinking.

[hellodolly]

Hopefully the court judges with a variety of parliamentary requirements to be met in the future, no matter who is in power at the moment.

Like for all future budgeting processes they make it compulsory for all future governments, that

- the use of money for project proposals are accurately represented in detail and coherent on the last baht.

- the use of money for project proposals is described in detail for all people publicly documented and visible

- Public monthly or quarterly reports on Finance and project progresses.

- Public invitation for project proposals and at least three competitive compare offers.

- Project completion reports including all expenses with receipts.

- a strong supervisory committee composed of members is formed by all parties,

to control the entire investment process without disabilities and time delay restrictions.

The results of the process and progress checks are presented to the parliament.

The members of the supervisory body should rotate so that corruption is impossible or more difficult.

When public funds are used, then the public has the right to see what the representatives of the people plan to do with the money and how it was used.

It must be prevented that a country can be completely plundered by a few unethical people just because they are currently in power.

Democracy requires transparency and not dubious vote in the middle of the night for the largest credit since the existing of Thailand,

with a term of 50 years. In fact, affected at least three generations in a row.

With compound interest, it is then 6 trillion baht.

This government has no ethics and no morals to society.

Right, this and former governments has no ethics to society , and will never have, as it is in the Thai culture....

But the only government that really invested in huge infrastructure in Thailand was and is the Taksin governments, airport(s), highway, airport link, sky trains, all what we see and use of high end infrastructure, so hopeful also high speed rail system.

During the years of undemocratic government with Abhisit as PM, nothing was build up, only debts.

Let's wait to what the court comes up with, maybe there is a good financial plan and the payback of the loan could be done by income from the investments, so not to quickly with calculating for tax payers in generations.

Are you only going to tell half the truth here. Thaksin had those projects when the whole world was rolling in money. Also double digit percentages of the money wound up in his pocket.

You are obviously new to Thailand and have no idea of the inferior workmanship that was put into the airport. The ill concived planning for the handling of travelers. In four years they had to reopen the old one because of lack of planning on the new one. but you can bet your bottom baht Thaksin got his cut. In fact he was convicted of it and sentenced to two years in Jail plus about 15 other things hanging over his head.

Don't really know about the other projects other than I am sure Thaksin got his share of the puplic money that was intended for the projects. As for Abhist even an idiot knows the world was in financial straights then and if it hadn't been for Korn Thailand would have been to.

Stick around and see what is really going on. Nothing you can do about it except the same as the rest of us post opinions or nonsense. But you will come to love the country any how.

[hellodolly]

I hope they are able to derail this bill.

If you want to invest in infrastructure that is good, but make good plans and make sure there is accountability. Doing it off the books only invites even more graft and the PTP is corrupt enough as it is.

Everyone knows that this loan was also to support the rice scam.

I have no problems with investments if opponents are allowed to check the spending.. not like this.

You know, they're still paying off the debt created during the 1997 crash. <deleted> are they thinking about by taking on another 2T ฿ in additional debt? The only upside I see is that the baht will be debased faster against the dollar (euro, pound, etc), well, at least for awhile. Any actual infrastructure repairs will be cosmetic or politically motivated while making the amart richer in the process. How about limited access (clover-leaf onramps and offramps) super-highways spanning North to South and East to West with funds set aside for the purchase of highway patrol cars and Westernize police training for traffic control and the enforcement of moving violations. That might actually save a few lives. Wait a minute! I lost my mind...it's about the money. Never mind.

Actually they are not paying of the debt created in 1997. They transferred that to the BOT and borrowed that much more with nothing to show for it and now they are looking for another 2.2 trillion baht loan.

I believe that debt was in the 1 trillion baht range. Where has the money they saved in payments gone in addition to the other money coming in.

[mixxer]

Don't panic if it all goes tits up we can get another loan from the IMF .

[waza]

The PTP need this money to fund Thaksin's two pet projects, the rice scam and the Dawei project, he needs another 450% increase in his wealth this year.

[Robby nz]

What with PTs previous refusal to accept the verdict of the court and the reds threats and intimidation of the judges they haven't made any friends with the court.

So they cant expect any sympathy, it will be strictly down to the letter of the law and no allowances for 'honest mistakes'.

And when it comes to any penalties to be imposed, past sins will likely come back to haunt,

[Emptyset]

The bill passed final approval by the Senate at 02.30 a.m. on November 20 with a vote of 63 to 13.

Would it have passed if the rest of the Senate members who were told to go home had been there?

Source for this? Sorry to ask, I just don't remember reading about it, and it wasn't that long ago.

[Emptyset]

What with PTs previous refusal to accept the verdict of the court and the reds threats and intimidation of the judges they haven't made any friends with the court.

So they cant expect any sympathy, it will be strictly down to the letter of the law and no allowances for 'honest mistakes'.

And when it comes to any penalties to be imposed, past sins will likely come back to haunt,

There are two arguments, one over whether you think the infrastracture bill is a good thing for the country (open to debate) and one over whether you think it's right for the court to be involved in that debate. Is it really their role to tell the government that Thailand isn't ready for a HST yet and that the project doesn't conform to the principles of sufficiency economy? Is there a legal basis for such moral and economic lectures? I've yet to see it.

The whole process is entirely politicized, but opponents of PT are willing to support it because they think the court are acting as moral guardians against a rapacious government. Fine. But what does that have to do with the law?

[JRSoul]

What with PTs previous refusal to accept the verdict of the court and the reds threats and intimidation of the judges they haven't made any friends with the court.

So they cant expect any sympathy, it will be strictly down to the letter of the law and no allowances for 'honest mistakes'.

And when it comes to any penalties to be imposed, past sins will likely come back to haunt,

There are two arguments, one over whether you think the infrastracture bill is a good thing for the country (open to debate) and one over whether you think it's right for the court to be involved in that debate. Is it really their role to tell the government that Thailand isn't ready for a HST yet and that the project doesn't conform to the principles of sufficiency economy? Is there a legal basis for such moral and economic lectures? I've yet to see it.

The whole process is entirely politicized, but opponents of PT are willing to support it because they think the court are acting as moral guardians against a rapacious government. Fine. But what does that have to do with the law?

Really? And there was I thinking the problem was borrowing huge amounts of money with no clear data on how it was to be spent. And while HOW was being discussed, we could have a bit of WHY, with clear analysis of cost and benefit.

There are also quite a few questions about how, why and when the bill was enacted, which might be even more unconstitutional. There might also be some questions about the input and cabinet information given to a criminal businessman and what insider knowledge profits he might receive from that.

Edited January 9, 2014 by JRSoul

[jayboy]

*Deleted posts edited out*

I see that on twitter Korn has expressed extreme frustration that the court has strayed into commenting on matters which are of no concern to it, effectively accepting this a a kangaroo politicised court.Korn is in favour of the proposal but disagrees with the financing method.

[kimamey]

What with PTs previous refusal to accept the verdict of the court and the reds threats and intimidation of the judges they haven't made any friends with the court.

So they cant expect any sympathy, it will be strictly down to the letter of the law and no allowances for 'honest mistakes'.

And when it comes to any penalties to be imposed, past sins will likely come back to haunt,

There are two arguments, one over whether you think the infrastracture bill is a good thing for the country (open to debate) and one over whether you think it's right for the court to be involved in that debate. Is it really their role to tell the government that Thailand isn't ready for a HST yet and that the project doesn't conform to the principles of sufficiency economy? Is there a legal basis for such moral and economic lectures? I've yet to see it.

The whole process is entirely politicized, but opponents of PT are willing to support it because they think the court are acting as moral guardians against a rapacious government. Fine. But what does that have to do with the law?

I think the court was asked to rule on whether the loan and the processes involved were against the constitution rather than on the country's need for it

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Emptyset]

What with PTs previous refusal to accept the verdict of the court and the reds threats and intimidation of the judges they haven't made any friends with the court.

So they cant expect any sympathy, it will be strictly down to the letter of the law and no allowances for 'honest mistakes'.

And when it comes to any penalties to be imposed, past sins will likely come back to haunt,

There are two arguments, one over whether you think the infrastracture bill is a good thing for the country (open to debate) and one over whether you think it's right for the court to be involved in that debate. Is it really their role to tell the government that Thailand isn't ready for a HST yet and that the project doesn't conform to the principles of sufficiency economy? Is there a legal basis for such moral and economic lectures? I've yet to see it.

The whole process is entirely politicized, but opponents of PT are willing to support it because they think the court are acting as moral guardians against a rapacious government. Fine. But what does that have to do with the law?

I think the court was asked to rule on whether the loan and the processes involved were against the constitution rather than on the country's need for it

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I wrote about this in my deleted posts. No idea why they were deleted, so not going to repeat myself, but read this BKK Pundit link for more details: http://asiancorrespondent.com/118006/thailands-nacc-ruling-why-it-happened-and-what-it-means/

[indyuk]

I hope they are able to derail this bill.

If you want to invest in infrastructure that is good, but make good plans and make sure there is accountability. Doing it off the books only invites even more graft and the PTP is corrupt enough as it is.

Everyone knows that this loan was also to support the rice scam.

I have no problems with investments if opponents are allowed to check the spending.. not like this.

You state that...

"Everyone knows that this loan was also to support the rice scam."

Which institutions IT systems have been hacked for you to be so specific about the financial side of this issue. I suggest that you put up or shut up. Bold statements like these are very damaging to Thailand and her markets if they are not true.

Edited January 9, 2014 by indyuk

[robblok]

I hope they are able to derail this bill.

If you want to invest in infrastructure that is good, but make good plans and make sure there is accountability. Doing it off the books only invites even more graft and the PTP is corrupt enough as it is.

Everyone knows that this loan was also to support the rice scam.

I have no problems with investments if opponents are allowed to check the spending.. not like this.

You state that...

"Everyone knows that this loan was also to support the rice scam."

Which institutions IT systems have been hacked for you to be so specific about the financial side of this issue. I suggest that you put up or shut up. Bold statements like these are very damaging to Thailand and her markets if they are not true.

Your a funny guy (as are most PTP supporters). You got PTP ministers voting multiple times then comming up with an excuse that is impossible. (so that shows all about how honest they are)

I should have said.. everyone except die hard PTP fanboys know this to be true. Look at the facts they can't pay the farmers (could not even before this mess) They needed money what better as a loan that has no checks and balances.

The problem is my statements are true, just take those red glasses off and see what is happening.

We got a government so full of lies (and get caught at them at every-time) and you still believe what they say

[waza]

I hope they are able to derail this bill.

If you want to invest in infrastructure that is good, but make good plans and make sure there is accountability. Doing it off the books only invites even more graft and the PTP is corrupt enough as it is.

Everyone knows that this loan was also to support the rice scam.

I have no problems with investments if opponents are allowed to check the spending.. not like this.

You state that...

"Everyone knows that this loan was also to support the rice scam."

Which institutions IT systems have been hacked for you to be so specific about the financial side of this issue. I suggest that you put up or shut up. Bold statements like these are very damaging to Thailand and her markets if they are not true.

Your a funny guy (as are most PTP supporters). You got PTP ministers voting multiple times then comming up with an excuse that is impossible. (so that shows all about how honest they are)

I should have said.. everyone except die hard PTP fanboys know this to be true. Look at the facts they can't pay the farmers (could not even before this mess) They needed money what better as a loan that has no checks and balances.

The problem is my statements are true, just take those red glasses off and see what is happening.

We got a government so full of lies (and get caught at them at every-time) and you still believe what they say

Its called common sense robblok, but only those with common sense can see it.

[dukebowling]

The corrupt Constitutional Court will once again make a ruling disregarding the constitution and in their best interests.

The upside is hopefully, they will hang themselves and provide evidence to show their corruption.

[billd766]

I hope they are able to derail this bill.

If you want to invest in infrastructure that is good, but make good plans and make sure there is accountability. Doing it off the books only invites even more graft and the PTP is corrupt enough as it is.

Everyone knows that this loan was also to support the rice scam.

I have no problems with investments if opponents are allowed to check the spending.. not like this.

You state that...

"Everyone knows that this loan was also to support the rice scam."

Which institutions IT systems have been hacked for you to be so specific about the financial side of this issue. I suggest that you put up or shut up. Bold statements like these are very damaging to Thailand and her markets if they are not true.

And if they are true what will you say then?

So far there has been NO transparency from the PTP government about ANY of their projects.

The PTP has damaged Thailand so much in the last 2 years or so that this won't make any difference.

Edited January 9, 2014 by billd766

[hellodolly]

The PTP need this money to fund Thaksin's two pet projects, the rice scam and the Dawei project, he needs another 450% increase in his wealth this year.

I thought Thailand got cut out of the Dawei project.

*Deleted posts edited out*

I see that on twitter Korn has expressed extreme frustration that the court has strayed into commenting on matters which are of no concern to it, effectively accepting this a a kangaroo politicised court.Korn is in favour of the proposal but disagrees with the financing method.

Care to post the whole article. Some thing tells me that a high speed rail is not on his list of approved items. Also I think he would be looking for safty standards to be put in place.

Now he may or may not be frustrated by it being in the court. But I bet he is happier with that than with a proven corrupt government putting in a temporary caretaker who couldn't balance her own check book and condoned a finance minister actions when he lied and said it was OK to lie if it makes people feel good.

[waza]

The PTP need this money to fund Thaksin's two pet projects, the rice scam and the Dawei project, he needs another 450% increase in his wealth this year.

I thought Thailand got cut out of the Dawei project.

*Deleted posts edited out*

I see that on twitter Korn has expressed extreme frustration that the court has strayed into commenting on matters which are of no concern to it, effectively accepting this a a kangaroo politicised court.Korn is in favour of the proposal but disagrees with the financing method.

Care to post the whole article. Some thing tells me that a high speed rail is not on his list of approved items. Also I think he would be looking for safty standards to be put in place.

Now he may or may not be frustrated by it being in the court. But I bet he is happier with that than with a proven corrupt government putting in a temporary caretaker who couldn't balance her own check book and condoned a finance minister actions when he lied and said it was OK to lie if it makes people feel good.

No, Thaksin will loose too much money and face if this project collapses, so funding has precedence's over paying the rice farmers and the caretaker government is still begging Japan for money.

Thailand’s caretaker government has asked Japan to take part in Dawei SEZ Development Co (DSEZ), a special-purpose vehicle for the project, particularly in mega projects such as power plants, integrated steel mills and refineries......recently Thailand and Myanmar seized control of the multi-billion dollar Dawei special economic zone from Italian Thai Development Pcl (ITD) to rescue the floundering project and convince foreign investors to finally come on board. http://entrepreneurthai.wordpress.com/2014/01/02/thailands-caretaker-government-has-asked-japan-to-invest-in-dawei-sez-development-co-dsez-mega-projects/

Dec 17, 2013 Thai Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra visited the location of a $50B joint development project between Thailand and Myanmar on Monday. jobs.aol.com › Videos › News Business News

27 Dec 2013 A feasibility study and environmental impact assessment (EIA) for Dawei infrastructure projects worth a combined 50.2 billion baht will continue despite the government's 2-trillion-baht infrastructure plan being stalled.

Edited January 9, 2014 by waza

[Emptyset]

Care to post the whole article. Some thing tells me that a high speed rail is not on his list of approved items. Also I think he would be looking for safty standards to be put in place.

Now he may or may not be frustrated by it being in the court. But I bet he is happier with that than with a proven corrupt government putting in a temporary caretaker who couldn't balance her own check book and condoned a finance minister actions when he lied and said it was OK to lie if it makes people feel good.

Yes, it is:

teamkorn ‏@teamkorn 9h

1/2 @KornDemocrat agrees with the PT government that TH needs to invest in infrastructure (like high-speed train)...

teamkorn ‏@teamkorn 9h

2/2 what we don't agree is lack of transparency by borrowing out of budget

Read the Bangkok Pundit link on the thread. The Democrats approved initial plans for HST.

[wprime]

I thought Thaksin was a billionaire already, why does he still need to siphon more money out of Thailand?

[JRSoul]

I thought Thaksin was a billionaire already, why does he still need to siphon more money out of Thailand?

Why do dogs lick their balls?

[Robby nz]

is

Robby nz, on 09 Jan 2014 - 05:39, said:

What with PTs previous refusal to accept the verdict of the court and the reds threats and intimidation of the judges they haven't made any friends with the court.

So they cant expect any sympathy, it will be strictly down to the letter of the law and no allowances for 'honest mistakes'.

And when it comes to any penalties to be imposed, past sins will likely come back to haunt,

There are two arguments, one over whether you think the infrastracture bill is a good thing for the country (open to debate) and one over whether you think it's right for the court to be involved in that debate. Is it really their role to tell the government that Thailand isn't ready for a HST yet and that the project doesn't conform to the principles of sufficiency economy? Is there a legal basis for such moral and economic lectures? I've yet to see it.

The whole process is entirely politicized, but opponents of PT are willing to support it because they think the court are acting as moral guardians against a rapacious government. Fine. But what does that have to do with the law?

I don't think there is any doubt or argument that the country needs infrastructure improvement.

Whether it needs HSR is open to debate

Where the problem arises is the way it has been gone about.

First, trying to obtain the funds in one hit outside budget in reality means that the money will be sitting somewhere for quite some time as all projects can be started or need to be paid for until some time in the future.

There is no guarantee that the money will not be used for something else as being out of budget it is not open to any real accounting process.

Added to that is that there has been no detailed planning done on where the money will go or exactly what it will be spent on.

The Dems have proposed that infrastructure development, improvement should be done within budget, year on year with funds obtained as needed.

That way it would be accountable under normal budget reporting.

Second, the way it was passed through the senate caused problems.

The matter was referred to the constitution court which is the court that is charged with ensuring things are done in accordance with the constitution and they have the power to decide if something does or does not infringe the constitution.

As they have been asked to decide on the legality of this bill they are duty bound to do so and as the experts on constitution law their decision (if what I read is correct) is binding on everyone, even though there are some who in the past who have refused to accept the courts ruling.