Immigration Crackdown in North-East Thailand

[SanukJoeII]

As has been noted in othe rposts, the real problem is illegal immigrants from neighboring countries, NOT WESTERNERS..!!

And what makes you think that? You think a westerner that is doing monthly visa runs for years is considered highly desirable in Thailand? There is nothing in it for the immigration too. When you apply for a tourist visa at a Thai consulate at least you pay the visa fee but at the border you just make undesirable and unnecessary traffic. No fees so there is no money to even pay the officers at the border.

You are only partly right MacWalen. First entering on land (not by plane) gives you a permit for 15 days, not 30. So those westerners that cannot enter with a visa have to go out and get in every 2 weeks. How many you think will do that? You have to live near the border to do that. But a small portion will do this.

The whole crackdown is targeted on illegal Lao workers! Why?

1. It's a crackdown in NE Thailand only, with emphasis on Mukdahan and Nongkhai border points, bordering Lao.

2. It's targeting enterers coming on land, getting a 15 day permit. Only enterers by air get a 30 day permit.

3. Westerners would get a visa at an embassy, double entry visas are possible, each visa is 60 days valid, so maximum 120 days with one in and out.

So, what they are looking for is Lao nationals who come to illegally work in Thailand. That is good, as illegal means against the law and that is undsirable. Also illegally staying in Thailand is against the law, so if there are tourists staying long time without the proper papers they can get nervous, but as this is all about NE, visa runs and border runs can still be done to Cambodia, Malaysia, Myanmar.

I only wonder if it would not be more "scoring" to visit those factories, fisheries etcetera and check all workers for correct papers...

[khwaibah]

most do 30 days on arrival...then do the visa run every 15 / 30 days..so if you get many stamps ..you are not a tourist...

this will knock a lot of people...so the no have visa will increase ie overstay...

red marks are coming quickly to many peoples passport...

Only holds true if you frequent one border more than four times. You are still free to fly in and out at will, and cross into Cambodia or Myanmar or Malaysia.

Has no effect on me so far. I just crossed Nong Khai for the fourth time yesterday, but barely a glance...and guess what...no red stamp !!!

Very intense scrutiny however, by the Lao Immigration personnel. They had more people than ususual inside their small office (has window 1 and 2). Took and average of 3 to 5 minutes per peson. I looked inside and had 4 computer positions that were checked very slowly and meticulously. 100 people in line with me on Monday....it was 2 hours to get stamped into Laos. Coming back was only 5 minutes at the most...and a smile.

'

Still unlimited entry on 15/30 day visa exempt entry at Chong Chom Border Crossing.

[JimsKnight]

So what are the risks for a foreign person having this description/status:

1. He is a European, age 38 and he lives here in Bangkok... He is unmarried, he rents a nice apartment, he does not own anything here (no condo, no car) He has no kids, no permanent girlfriend, etc.

2. He is semi-respectable for a resident "sex-tourist" type... he is very clean-cut, dresses conservatively, no tattoos, no piercings, he does not drink or smoke, and he's never been in any trouble for anything. He presents a very 'clean' image, perhaps almost unusually so for a European guy his age.

3. He is independently wealthy and he does not work.

4. He goes in and out every 30-days, VOA, and he always flies in and out through swampyboom, and he always stays over night offshore one-night or two-nights where ever he goes, Singapore, Hong Kong, Beijing, Tokyo, etc.

Technically, he fits the definition of a foreigner who lives here in LOS on tourist visas. However, he is squeaky-clean and he does not work here. Additionally, he is not making "border runs", per se... (there is always a one-day or two-day offshore break between the exit and the re-entry visa stamps)

However, I'm wondering, what are his risks? On the one hand there is the literal reading of the Thai immigration rules versus how we think it is being enforced.

Comments? Advice?

He is not getting tourist visas or a VOA he is getting visa exempt entries.

What he is doing is not a problem at all and there are many doing it.

They entire thing is about people working here illegally or involved in other illegal activities.

Yeah but what he's getting at is that he may be 'presumed' to be illegally working when a border-checker see's a gazillion stamps in his passport

[Chao Lao Beach]

but won't all this be relaxed regarding citizens of neighbouring countries when AEC comes into force?

And 40,000 people blacklisted ! WOW that is a phenomenal amount

The AEC is not about letting all citizens of neighbouring countries move around freely or come into Thailand. It's restricted to a select few occupations, nothing to do with the labouring classes.

So in 2015 will there be a mass exodice of unskilled working out of Laos, Myanmar and Cambodia into Thailand?

[slipperylobster]

As has been noted in othe rposts, the real problem is illegal immigrants from neighboring countries, NOT WESTERNERS..!!

And what makes you think that? You think a westerner that is doing monthly visa runs for years is considered highly desirable in Thailand? There is nothing in it for the immigration too. When you apply for a tourist visa at a Thai consulate at least you pay the visa fee but at the border you just make undesirable and unnecessary traffic. No fees so there is no money to even pay the officers at the border.

Yes..this has more to do with illegal workers from Laos and Vietnam. They come by the busloads. Just six months ago I was at Nakhon Phanom and I was the only farang..in fact the only person...leaving Thailand.

My joy was short lived when I got back on the bus to cross the bridge to Thailand...just a few minutes later. Three buses full of young vietnamese pulled in and I waited two hours for them to process, before my bus was allowed to continue. These people were definitely not tourists. They were herded in by a manager and three ladies got thrown off the bus for bad paperwork.

I imagine there are some dead beat farang "English Teachers" or food vendors that are illegal. They get caught elsewhere, anyways.

Thailand makes quite a bit from tourists. Maybe not immigration (VOA)..but everything and everybody else. Does not make sense to apply this too strictly for the farang... But might be used as a tool.

Bottom line......more geared to neighboring countries filtering in for jobs... Not totally aimed at the farang/

[lisu]

What is a high tech identity scanning machine?

A Logitech Webcam, and Windows Explorer.

Edited January 21, 2014 by lisu

[ukrules]

Why not simply allow every person ONE extension / visa run PER YEAR - problem solved or is this solution to difficult to implement?

I believe there is already a rule that tourists visas can only be used for six months out of any twelve month period. As with everything else, sometimes it is reasonably strictly enforced and sometimes not at all.

This rule was cancelled several years ago.

[ubonjoe]

but won't all this be relaxed regarding citizens of neighbouring countries when AEC comes into force?

And 40,000 people blacklisted ! WOW that is a phenomenal amount

The AEC is not about letting all citizens of neighbouring countries move around freely or come into Thailand. It's restricted to a select few occupations, nothing to do with the labouring classes.

So in 2015 will there be a mass exodice of unskilled working out of Laos, Myanmar and Cambodia into Thailand?

No

The is no provision for that in the AEC agreement for that. It is is about trade not free movement or workers.

[ukrules]

You are only partly right MacWalen. First entering on land (not by plane) gives you a permit for 15 days, not 30. So those westerners that cannot enter with a visa have to go out and get in every 2 weeks. How many you think will do that? You have to live near the border to do that. But a small portion will do this.

People from G7 countries now get 30 days at land borders as well as airports. This is confirmed by many people including me, it applies to all land borders.

I got a 30 day stamp at the Kanchanaburi border crossing yesterday, UK passport. In and out in 20 minutes.

I drove over the border in my own car past the Myanmar checkpoint, got the stamp then turned around and came back. I had a Myanmar policeman sitting the back of my car though. I'm not sure if he just wanted a lift through the 4KM 'no mans land' between the two countries or if this was a requirement for me taking my own vehicle across the border. I didn't care, job done.

[fifthcolumn]

As has been noted in othe rposts, the real problem is illegal immigrants from neighboring countries, NOT WESTERNERS..!!

And what makes you think that? You think a westerner that is doing monthly visa runs for years is considered highly desirable in Thailand? There is nothing in it for the immigration too. When you apply for a tourist visa at a Thai consulate at least you pay the visa fee but at the border you just make undesirable and unnecessary traffic. No fees so there is no money to even pay the officers at the border.

I totally agree with you, but by extendion of your own "logic" in prior post, it would be all the support services of ths type of person that would suffer, so they would not do do.

In your past post, you listed a bunch of services that would come under pressure. Well, it would be the runner, that is the true TR runner, not just those doing border hopes to refresh visas that would be using ssid services most.

In addition, there is his guest house, his eateries and his pubs. Medicsl, dental, airlines. Not to mention other "things".

In Asia, govt does not care about impacts on businesses unless those businesses are paying officaldom to care about them in some very direct way. Often times very great things are offered to countries and are turned away because the of the refusal to pay persons off to mske it happen. The nation held hostage to corruption.

[recycler]

As they were brilliant enough to make the minimum wage only mandatory for Thai nationals there is huge influx from surrounding countries of people who are happy to work for less.

[Habs]

You are only partly right MacWalen. First entering on land (not by plane) gives you a permit for 15 days, not 30. So those westerners that cannot enter with a visa have to go out and get in every 2 weeks. How many you think will do that? You have to live near the border to do that. But a small portion will do this.

People from G7 countries now get 30 days at land borders as well as airports. This is confirmed by many people including me, it applies to all land borders.

I got a 30 day stamp at the Kanchanaburi border crossing yesterday, UK passport. In and out in 20 minutes.

I drove over the border in my own car past the Myanmar checkpoint, got the stamp then turned around and came back. I had a Myanmar policeman sitting the back of my car though. I'm not sure if he just wanted a lift through the 4KM 'no mans land' between the two countries or if this was a requirement for me taking my own vehicle across the border. I didn't care, job done.

Just a ? for you did you have a visa for Myanmar or did you pay the 700 Bath?

[DrTuner]

What is a high tech identity scanning machine?

A trainee with a Galaxy smartphone.

I think they mean a passport code reader connected to a PC, which is then connected to the immigration's database. Same as at swampy immigration, they get the DB entry by reading the passport code or chip. About time they get everything in the net, maybe there's hope of visas and extensions being processed electronically sometime in the distant future.

[SICHONSTEVE]

40k on a black list? How long did that take to accumulate?

Depends on how fast the keyboard operator is at inputting the names on to the computer database!!!

[ukrules]

You are only partly right MacWalen. First entering on land (not by plane) gives you a permit for 15 days, not 30. So those westerners that cannot enter with a visa have to go out and get in every 2 weeks. How many you think will do that? You have to live near the border to do that. But a small portion will do this.

People from G7 countries now get 30 days at land borders as well as airports. This is confirmed by many people including me, it applies to all land borders.

I got a 30 day stamp at the Kanchanaburi border crossing yesterday, UK passport. In and out in 20 minutes.

I drove over the border in my own car past the Myanmar checkpoint, got the stamp then turned around and came back. I had a Myanmar policeman sitting the back of my car though. I'm not sure if he just wanted a lift through the 4KM 'no mans land' between the two countries or if this was a requirement for me taking my own vehicle across the border. I didn't care, job done.

Just a ? for you did you have a visa for Myanmar or did you pay the 700 Bath?

I had no Myanmar visa, it's not needed for a simple border run where you return immediately and yes, I did pay the 700 Baht which covered the entrance into Myanmar and I believe a couple of hundred Baht for the 'helper' guy who was pretty helpful and did the paperwork, etc.

[Imkah]

Well, this will cut Thailand's tourist numbers in half.

I doubt that very much! They are (or so they say) trying to get a hold on the massive influx of labour from neighbouring countries. (Whom, by the way are needed by the countries economy - local logic..). The tourists who come for a week or 3 are still welcome. Most of them speak Mandarin, Cantonese or Russian or related languages by the way. The small cluster of pinkies in Phuket or Pattaya who haven't got their papers right are of no consequence to Thailand's economy. Stop fooling yourselves; the room and the bike you rent, the beers you drink mean nothing.

[ubonjoe]

A off topic post removed.

[mightyvan]

Having to do visa runs is very draconian, and many other countries in Asia have long since moved away from it. In my opinion it would be a much better idea if Thai immigration offices issued 60 and 90 day extensions. I for one would be happy to pay more to avoid these dangerous and long journeys to Laos and Cambodia, and the Thai Government would make billions of Baht more , rather than the money going to other countries issuing visas for what is often a twenty minute stay/ This would of course also mean that money need not be wasted on expensive high tech scanning machines. I stay in Thailand usually with a triple entry Visa issued abroad, and then when it expires after my three entries I go abroad and get another one. As Thailand is getting increasingly more expensive, especially when compared to Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Burma, Phillipines if life becomes more difficult with visas I will simply go and live elsewhere and stop spending my money in Thailand.

[rct99q]

There is a labor shortage in Thailand and real wage inflation. These laborers are doing work that Thais are either unavailable to to or refuse to do. The country needs these people. I really hope this is one of the many crackdowns Thailand initiates and then neglects over time.

Many countries have this problem- Immigrants do the work that locals don't want to do

No....immigrants do the work that greedy owners will not pay fare wages to the locals for! You can hire laborers in Nong Khai (immigrants) off the books in areas such as construction, road repair and farming for less than 300 baht per day.....in some cases much less.

Thais will do the work but in return are asking for a fare wage. Much the same in the US (mexican labor) and UK (welsh labor).

[Shamrock 1234]

This is not about farangs on visa runs. This is about manual workers coming into Thailand from neighbouring countries. These people come here to work. They are knowingly employed by Thai businesses. Isn't that where the problem lies? I once worked at a place in Samui where the Burmese staff worked seven days a week with no day off, simply because they were Burmese. Everybody else got a day off. This policy was determined by the Thai owner. Curiously the Burmese in question had been there for 7 years. I suppose that will all change as Myanmar opens up and becomes more prosperous. I wonder if they were paid minimum wage?

[rct99q]

Having to do visa runs is very draconian, and many other countries in Asia have long since moved away from it. In my opinion it would be a much better idea if Thai immigration offices issued 60 and 90 day extensions. I for one would be happy to pay more to avoid these dangerous and long journeys to Laos and Cambodia, and the Thai Government would make billions of Baht more , rather than the money going to other countries issuing visas for what is often a twenty minute stay/ This would of course also mean that money need not be wasted on expensive high tech scanning machines. I stay in Thailand usually with a triple entry Visa issued abroad, and then when it expires after my three entries I go abroad and get another one. As Thailand is getting increasingly more expensive, especially when compared to Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Burma, Phillipines if life becomes more difficult with visas I will simply go and live elsewhere and stop spending my money in Thailand.

Why do you not get an immigration O or B for a long term stay (get the extensions) and avoid the visa runs? Seems really daft to be doing a visa run all the time.

I agree with the idea of offering extensions in exchange for the foreigner leaving a $10,000 or $20,000 USD deposit. No problem.

[blazes]

In my wife's construction crane business , it would collapse without the influx of illegal Myanmar workers, getting 8,000 bt and no bonus. Also, the Chinese-Thai boss employs 19 yr old Thai guys to work enormous cranes that they don't know the first thing about (and thus are always phoning in for instructions on how to work this or that lever). (Whether the condos that the cranes help to construct will eventually collapse would be another topic, of course.)

But, hey, hi-so developers want to make a living too, just like the rest of us. So there surely will be pressure from Those Who Matter to leave well alone.....

[blazes]

So what are the risks for a foreign person having this description/status:

1. He is a European, age 38 and he lives here in Bangkok... He is unmarried, he rents a nice apartment, he does not own anything here (no condo, no car) He has no kids, no permanent girlfriend, etc.

2. He is semi-respectable for a resident "sex-tourist" type... he is very clean-cut, dresses conservatively, no tattoos, no piercings, he does not drink or smoke, and he's never been in any trouble for anything. He presents a very 'clean' image, perhaps almost unusually so for a European guy his age.

3. He is independently wealthy and he does not work.

4. He goes in and out every 30-days, VOA, and he always flies in and out through swampyboom, and he always stays over night offshore one-night or two-nights where ever he goes, Singapore, Hong Kong, Beijing, Tokyo, etc.

Technically, he fits the definition of a foreigner who lives here in LOS on tourist visas. However, he is squeaky-clean and he does not work here. Additionally, he is not making "border runs", per se... (there is always a one-day or two-day offshore break between the exit and the re-entry visa stamps)

However, I'm wondering, what are his risks? On the one hand there is the literal reading of the Thai immigration rules versus how we think it is being enforced.

Comments? Advice?

[nomad127]

You're right. I mis-typed. I'm concerned about my friend who received a red stamp in her passport in Laos and now she's relying on the 15 day Cambodia runs. If she gets a red stamp there as well do they stick her on the next plane back home or toss her in jail?

If she received the dreaded 'Scarlet Letter" she is best to get a new passport, otherwise any immigration office® will be able to see it, no matter where she goes. She will most likely be given one more 15 day stamp and she MUST leave the country within those 15 days.

[crazydrummerpauly]

well this works both ways , i suggest he goes into the NK office and see what goes on .... took my mother to get a re entry visa to visit Laos for a day or so , the old woman immigration officer tried to sell her jewellery , handbags , rings .... what a laugh !!! these are govt officials , meanwhile the farangs ,with real credentials , with real visas, who have family here, get interrogated just to be able to stay .....

u want to fix it !!! CLEAN UP YOUR OWN BACKYARD FIRST !!

Yep - that is one of the most loathed offices in the country - and 'that old woman' who is very senior has tried to sell everything to unfortunate local farangs, including land ! They look for 'gifts' in that office - i even know of a Thai who used to work there, who when he goes to help his farang friend always takes a box of cakes or something fancy to impress her. Dreadful place, to the extent that i'd rather do a visa-run every 90 days than have to report there.

[crazydrummerpauly]

There is a labor shortage in Thailand and real wage inflation. These laborers are doing work that Thais are either unavailable to to or refuse to do. The country needs these people. I really hope this is one of the many crackdowns Thailand initiates and then neglects over time.

Many countries have this problem- Immigrants do the work that locals don't want to do

No....immigrants do the work that greedy owners will not pay fare wages to the locals for! You can hire laborers in Nong Khai (immigrants) off the books in areas such as construction, road repair and farming for less than 300 baht per day.....in some cases much less.

Thais will do the work but in return are asking for a fare wage. Much the same in the US (mexican labor) and UK (welsh labor).

(UK) - don't forget the Poles, Rumanians, Hungarians, Lithuanians...i've lost track of how many can now walk in...don't think the Welsh are the biggest contingent ?

[Timwin]

I agree with the idea of offering extensions in exchange for the foreigner leaving a $10,000 or $20,000 USD deposit. No problem.

So you came here to gloat about your money? Jay-sus!

[DekDaeng]

"Having to do visa runs is very draconian, and many other countries in Asia have long since moved away from it. In my opinion it would be a much better idea if Thai immigration offices issued 60 and 90 day extensions. I for one would be happy to pay more to avoid these dangerous and long journeys to Laos and Cambodia, and the Thai Government would make billions of Baht more , rather than the money going to other countries issuing visas for what is often a twenty minute stay"

Excellent idea.

Road toll down, fuel imports down, money direct into Thai gov coffers*

*Well, maybe -

[crazydrummerpauly]

Coincidence ? - BBC just now: "100s of 1,000s of illegal workers being deported from Malaysia".

[mijan24]

Are these low paid workers doing jobs Thais don't want?

A very good question my understanding is they are doing work/jobs that many Thais will not undertake. Having talked with some business owners they can not get Thais to do the menial jobs (dishwashing, vegetable preparation) or if they do they want more than the basic wage and will not perform an honest 8/12 hour shift - there lies the problem - what is the business owners answer - hire workers from vietnam, lao etc hence the constant inflow/outflow at Nong Khai.