I'll tell you why

[yourauntbob]

Wow, great! All except the last paragraph. Sounds to me like you have found a subservient, house servant rather than a wife. So I can only gather she is the exact opposite of your previous spouse. Thus you enjoy living here?

Maybe I am reading too much into this but you have less a marriage, but more a owner/servant relationship. But if it works for you excellent, and I fully agree it is a good reason to be living here.

Cheers.

I, too, caught that one and enjoy your different view of this, rct99q. I often wonder about people's interpretations of love -vs- loyalty, trust, etc. I am not convinced that people's behaviors towards each other can always be defined as love, since I am convinced that the definition of love is like providing the answer to a happy life.

In this case, I think that there is a copacetic relationship going on here, but as far as being kindred spirits and being able to sit and chat about heart-felt things and really having someone who knows your deepest, darkest secrets and being able to connect with you no matter what mood you are in, and to do so without ia beat, is... well... I simply have not been able to find anyone like that in my life.

So, if ti works, it works, but the downside is getting one's physical needs met whilst foregoing the spiritual and emotional needs. Maybe that is why mates like to meet up for beers and banter and crack until the wee hours of the morning. There's nothing like it. It's refreshing and good therapy.

your reading a lot that isnt there. i have other quotes on this thread that explain how she is far from my servant. it amazes me how people read one paragraph of appreciation and jump to all kinds of conclusions. i dont want to repeat, but please read my other posts......

[cashpower]

you clearly implied that she waits on you hand and foot and then backpedaled furiously when so rightfully condemned...

[kirstymelb101]

Awesome article!

Loved it

[cup-O-coffee]

Wow, great! All except the last paragraph. Sounds to me like you have found a subservient, house servant rather than a wife. So I can only gather she is the exact opposite of your previous spouse. Thus you enjoy living here?

Maybe I am reading too much into this but you have less a marriage, but more a owner/servant relationship. But if it works for you excellent, and I fully agree it is a good reason to be living here.

Cheers.

I, too, caught that one and enjoy your different view of this, rct99q. I often wonder about people's interpretations of love -vs- loyalty, trust, etc. I am not convinced that people's behaviors towards each other can always be defined as love, since I am convinced that the definition of love is like providing the answer to a happy life.

In this case, I think that there is a copacetic relationship going on here, but as far as being kindred spirits and being able to sit and chat about heart-felt things and really having someone who knows your deepest, darkest secrets and being able to connect with you no matter what mood you are in, and to do so without ia beat, is... well... I simply have not been able to find anyone like that in my life.

So, if ti works, it works, but the downside is getting one's physical needs met whilst foregoing the spiritual and emotional needs. Maybe that is why mates like to meet up for beers and banter and crack until the wee hours of the morning. There's nothing like it. It's refreshing and good therapy.

your reading a lot that isnt there. i have other quotes on this thread that explain how she is far from my servant. it amazes me how people read one paragraph of appreciation and jump to all kinds of conclusions. i dont want to repeat, but please read my other posts......

No, you are reading a lot that isn't there. Your explanations are yours and your only. Not hers.

I understand you are content and seem to be quite satisfied with your lot in life. I am not picking a fight with you. I really enjoy your view on life and am more of a supporter here than anything.

However, I am not reading a lot into what is not there because I am reading what is, in fact there. What is not there is what she says. You do not say what she says, and were you to come back and state anything she says which supports your view about her feelings, thoughts and performance... well... I would sincerely question whether or not the motivating force which caused her to say it is not due to your influence, or her saying it because she thinks that that is what you would want to hear.

My point: I know Thais, and I know Kreung Jai, and I know that trying to get any GF or fiance or Spouse to open up and truly reveal their heart (if they even remotely think that what they are about to say is going to be awkward) is impossible. Anyone finding an exception to this is certainly not going to be talking with a Thai who will wait on them hand and foot, and do it for nothing more than the benefit of being graced by the presence of you or anyone in their life.

Moreover, everything you have painted in all of your posts points to your interpretation of what she is actually doing, and what you are actually doing. You express your views and interpretations of why she does something and you state that she does indeed do things which cater to your needs and your wants; cooking, cleaning, errand running, shopping, etc. That is not love, my friend.

I am not arguing. I am not here to accuse or incriminate. It sounds to me like you have a suave lifestyle.

The thing is, youauntbob, I simply don't buy the bill of goods you are selling to define who she is, and what she thinks, and why she does what she does... all based upon your interpretations.

It simply seems rather odd that you take a lot of time to express your approval of her ways and dote over her and sum it all up to how much she loves you and does all of this because she is blessed with your presence in her life, ...and in one mere comment (IMO), dash that all to the ground, "And if the day comes where she wises up and realizes she can do soo much better than me, I will be on the next plane out of here."

Wises up to what? So, I guess the point of her "wising up" to that mysterious thing possibly reserves aside some kind of fear or "watchfulness" within, on your part, that she may some day realize the very thing I and others are implying very strongly; she is a servant... a doer for you.

I guess that is why you did not make any statements with respect that the two of you have candid talks; that you two discuss deep intimate and emotional issues in your lives and take it to that deep, inner level that only two people who fluently understand the depths of each others souls and have absolute trust and loyalty in each other.

Issuing a public warning of what you will do in the event she wises up, and telling that she puts her mother and father first; over you, her husband, with all due respect, places her in the role of servant, as far as I am concerned; but if you want to entitle her with the label of "wife" (at least until she "wises up"), then be my guest.

Peace and respect

Edited January 24, 2014 by cup-O-coffee

[addy77]

I think we're all prepared to put up with the accepted Thai style if it means we get a little bustle in your hedgerow once in awhile.

[Sigurris]

Could you give me an example of when questioning the teacher would be appropriate. Not in philosophical terms or in general but just one specific example of the positive aspect of questioning what the instructor is teaching.

I keep thinking about 2 +2 =4. Why would I want a student to question that?

I will give you a perfect example. I used to be a teacher and was watching a Thai English teacher at work. She wrote on the board, "I no go Big C". I was horrifed. The pupils wrote it down. My friends son, at 9 years old is fluent in English and would see that as incorrect. Could he question the teacher? Absolutely not for he would be marked out and that is something you do not want at an early age or any age in Thai schools. And her lack of grasp of spoken English was mirrored in 75% of Thai English teachers I have met over the years.

I had a student, a pharmacist, who told me that he spent 6 years at University keeping his head down for fear of being seen as different in any way. He told me that to question any teacher was tantamount to kissing your career away. This is not my opinion but the words of a 26 year old qualified Thai pharmacist.

Yes, I see what you are saying. Lets follow it through. I am teaching English and I write on the board, "I will not go to Big C." The student is allowed to question me and stands and says, "not correct. It should be, "I no go Big C." How has this helped Thai education?

First of all the chances are that no-one would question the teacher so they would write it down and, hopefully learn the correct word formation of English. Which, in my view is a plus.

I did have a situation where an adult student asked me to correct my marking of a test. When I enquired further she told me that her supervisor had told her that I had got something wrong in a similar vein to my Big C example. The supervisor was wrong and I explained it to the student. She was now in a complete dilema as two figures of authority had given her two different answers. She decided that, being Thai, her supervisor was right and never came back.

But if your example were to happen an enlightened teacher could ask the student to explain why they thought they were right and an interesting debate could ensue which could bring the rest of the class in to offer opinions. An interactive lesson where students think and reason has got to be more interesting than rote learning

Once the Thai education system starts to encourage questions it could help to break down the cultural belief that older is always wiser and teachers are always right without necessarily taking away the authority of teachers and the deep respect with which Thais treat their elders (a massive plus in my view). But this has to happen on a national level and include the teachers having the training and depth of knowledge of their subject. A pipe dream I know.

[Sam Gold]

That's 400,000 graduates and Thailand only needs 145,000. The rest will be clerking at 7/11.

SEA as a whole is over educated not undereducated.

The rest will be clerking at 7/11 because they haven't been taught the skills to get out there and get a job and work their way up the ladder, with all the challenges that implies, here or anywhere else. There are plenty of positions to be filled in Thailand, but nobody is able to fill them, that is the major issue, regardless of whether people have a degree or not.

SEA as a whole lacks quality education.

Yes there are a lot of graduates but their piece of paper won't get them anywhere given they haven't actually been taught anything.

They need to understand a degree isn't a magic token that miraculously opens all doors.

It's meant to be a testimony to the fact that you've been trained to a competent level, and that you are able to demonstrate resourcefulness and proactiveness.

They're still far from that i'm afraid.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Sam Gold

[bundoi]

Bob, greetings to you and your aunt.

The reason I love Thailand is because I love Thai culture.

I have worked in just about every corner of the world, and for me nothing comes close to Thailand and one or two its neighbours.

I am not blind to the challenges a farang might face here but I don't dwell on them.

I've been a traveller almost all of my life, so I'm not sure I'll be here for ever; the wanderlust is too ingrained I think; but there have hardly been any other places where I've really wanted to stay, including my home country - and yours for that matter.

Wishing a good evening to you and your wife, and your aunt.

[thailiketoo]

Yes, I see what you are saying. Lets follow it through. I am teaching English and I write on the board, "I will not go to Big C." The student is allowed to question me and stands and says, "not correct. It should be, "I no go Big C." How has this helped Thai education?

First of all the chances are that no-one would question the teacher so they would write it down and, hopefully learn the correct word formation of English. Which, in my view is a plus.

I did have a situation where an adult student asked me to correct my marking of a test. When I enquired further she told me that her supervisor had told her that I had got something wrong in a similar vein to my Big C example. The supervisor was wrong and I explained it to the student. She was now in a complete dilema as two figures of authority had given her two different answers. She decided that, being Thai, her supervisor was right and never came back.

But if your example were to happen an enlightened teacher could ask the student to explain why they thought they were right and an interesting debate could ensue which could bring the rest of the class in to offer opinions. An interactive lesson where students think and reason has got to be more interesting than rote learning

Once the Thai education system starts to encourage questions it could help to break down the cultural belief that older is always wiser and teachers are always right without necessarily taking away the authority of teachers and the deep respect with which Thais treat their elders (a massive plus in my view). But this has to happen on a national level and include the teachers having the training and depth of knowledge of their subject. A pipe dream I know.

Correct me if I am wrong but whether the teacher uses a 3000 year old education system, "Socratic method" or an even older method, "rote learning" makes little difference if the teacher has no idea what he is talking about. Do we agree on that?

[SCARLETIBIS1]

Firstly, if I can call you Bob, I did read all of Your Post and I did enjoy it. It was truthful from the heart and I honestly don't think too many people who have lived here any length of time can disagree with the things that you talked about, that could normally frustrate anyone. But even though it is easy for me to see you are an intelligent man, I can also see you are a confused man about something's.

I normally throw in my two cents worth here, so consider this worth that much, I guess before you would even take me seriously, I need to tell you a little about myself. I am 59 Years Old and have been living Over-seas for over 20 years in many, many, different countries. Perhaps some of the worst places in the world. I honestly can't find on a map too many places I have not been to. So there you have it.

You already know what your problem is Bob, although you do not know it is a problem for you. You said "You know it is not the Thais fault, but you can't help that this drives you nuts!". I can understand that. You also know that only you can change that Bob. But why should you? Then you told us about your Lovely Thai Wife who treats you like Gold. This is why you need to change Bob! Why you probably came here to live in the first place, which in my view was not a mistake. Being unhappy here is!

So this is where my advice comes in. Stop and correct me anytime you think I am wrong, or a Liar, but not for my spelling mistakes, as English Teachers like to do. You came to Thailand to start a "New Life". For reasons unknown! Perhaps your Lovely Thai Woman, that made you take this giant step. Perhaps life back home for you was not so bad. Maybe even good in some ways.

But something very important was missing in your life that prevented you from being happy, and you knew that. Perhaps it was a Woman, as you were lonely, which would be normal for any Man without a Woman. Well for Gays to! But You Guys (Gal's) get my meaning for everyone! Lonely from a recent Divorce maybe, Separation, Break-up with your Girl Friend, or whatever!.There is no crime in that Bob! Being Lonely is Terrible! Adam proved that in the Bible, by almost dying until Eve showed up. After spending a thousand years with her, sleeping with her every night, and a couple of kids, he probable wished he committed suicide then instead. But that is another story!

I don't know you Bob, but I am sure you thought long and hard before coming over here to Thailand to live in your new life. Happy and excited about the new adventure in front of you. Probably planned everything well ahead of time, before your left, knowing you could get a job here, Kissed your mom good-bye. promised to see her soon, and loaded up with all your excess baggage.

That would be again normal for most of us. But did you do a Baggage Check on your "Excess Baggage" before you left Bob? I am not talking about the 2 or 3 bags you brought, but the invisible ones you brought. The 2 or 3 Box Car Loads from your Home Land! Might not know that, but you did, by your post.

You expected things to be different here Bob, but not so much. You are upset because you brought your culture with you, and expected it to fit into theirs. Like a Big Brand New Refrigerator that you brought, but discovered the Plug Ins are different, so you are frustrated and upset about that. Why don't they Fit!!!??? It is because this is not supposed to fit Bob. You are supposed to fit! Your Fridge comes from your Home Land, and their Fridge belongs here. Get My Point!

You hate driving here! I can understand that. I do to! So I don't! I find other ways! Don't put yourself doing things you did back home but hate here! Change that! Move if you need to get closer to work! Take a Baht Bus earlier and have a good time talking to strangers. Get a 100cc Motor Bike and have the Wife Drive you around. I discovered all Thai Women are now born with that in there hands! Do you feel foolish doing that? Who Cares Here! This is part of why you came here! Or go to Amsterdam and watch the Professors going to work on a Bicycle.

As I said, I have worked Over-seas a greater part of my life. I was taught early, and listened to what one Old Expat told me, which I still hold high today. He told me that there was 3 Golden "C" to working Over-seas to being happy. So I will share this with you.

1) Don't Compare! (to you home country)

2) Don't Criticize!

3) Don't Complain!

Honestly Bob, how many of those did you pass? Zero maybe? Oh Ya! I forgo!. No Fail Rate in Thailand!

So Sorry! I am still learning to!

Bob! It is You that has to change and not Thailand, or it's Beautiful People. Understand that! Stop doing the things you hate here, but did back home, and change! Come to work late to by Baht Bus to work! You have this impression they want you for your great knowledge, and culture. But what they really want is your English Language Skills, and knowledge, and hope you will adapt to their Culture, in their Country!

Which if you were in my country, you get a Big F so far. Which we still Fail Students like You!

Okay?

Couldn't disagree more.

This is the kind of "willing against one's will" that will drive a man to madness.

This is the kind of "denying one's individuality and respect towards that individuality" that will turn a man into a obsequious eunuch, with a nose ring.

This is the kind of advice which presumes that yourauntbob is incapable of exercising human decency and the other, higher levels of consciousness, which his OP and follow-up posts make it emphatically clear he has.

yourauntbob gets an A- from COC for finding a level of contentment which does not include the baggage that you are whispering into his ear.

" obsequious", now here is a word I haven't used in ten years in Thailand. In fact, I rarely use any words more than 5 letters long. Guess I have forgotten most of em. The education posts probably do belong in a seperate post but here is a little anecdote. I stayed in Majoe for 6 months editing photos for a book I wrote every day spent at Majoe University Library. And almost every day girls would come up to me and ask me to correct their English papers. Most thought I might be a teacher. One day an older girl came up to me and asked me to review a paper she was working on. I said to her, "hey are you a student here"? She said no, she was a teacher. Guess what she taught? right, English and she had a Masters degree. Enough said about Thailand.

Edited January 24, 2014 by SCARLETIBIS1

[MrBrad]

You obviously are not familiar with Thai pedagogy methods.

The teacher lectures and gives handouts.

The students must listen, take notes and memorize, preparing to regurgitate verbatim on the exams.

A student questioning the teacher is showing disrespect, implying the teacher isn't doing their job properly.

God forbid actually challenging any statements.

Makes things interesting when the students know more on a given topic than the teacher, as in many ICT classes.

But yes that's the way it is.

Genuinely doesnt sound much different to my education in the UK, though maybe my school was strict or something. Asking a question would imply you werent listening whilst to challenge a teacher would result in a bollocking.

I think all this maybe comes from another Thaivisa myth thats been spouted so many times here we believe it to be true. Thai education may be inferior to Western countries but the fact is few of us have direct experience of it so anything we say is pure hearsay.

Not saying its not true, Im saying how the hell do any of us know?

There are ways to know how Thai schools stack up against schools (or education) in the rest of the world.

According to the Global Competitiveness Report 2013-2014, Thailand ranks #78 best out of 148 countries in the survey. For comparison, Switzerland is #1, Finland #2, and Singapore is #3. Germany is #14, Australia is #23, USA is #25, and UK is #26.

As for the ASEAN region:

• Singapore - 3rd
• Malaysia - 19th
• Brunei - 32nd
• Indonesia - 36th
• Philippines - 40th
• Laos - 57th
• Cambodia - 76th
• Thailand - 78th
• Vietnam - 95th
• Burma - 125th

The link is http://www.weforum.o...eport-2013-2014 Click onto Download Full Report, and then go to page 462.

[thailiketoo]

There are ways to know how Thai schools stack up against schools (or education) in the rest of the world.

According to the Global Competitiveness Report 2013-2014, Thailand ranks #78 best out of 148 countries in the survey. For comparison, Switzerland is #1, Finland #2, and Singapore is #3. Germany is #14, Australia is #23, USA is #25, and UK is #26.

As for the ASEAN region:

• Singapore - 3rd
• Malaysia - 19th
• Brunei - 32nd
• Indonesia - 36th
• Philippines - 40th
• Laos - 57th
• Cambodia - 76th
• Thailand - 78th
• Vietnam - 95th
• Burma - 125th

The link is http://www.weforum.o...eport-2013-2014 Click onto Download Full Report, and then go to page 462.

You wrote, "There are ways to know how Thai schools stack up against schools (or education) in the rest of the world."

Yes there is check out the ranking below. http://www.topuniversities.com/where-to-study/region/asia/rise-glocal-education-asean-countries

Thailand schools 4 and 5 out of the top ten ASEAN and 42 and 48 worldwide. Your global competitiveness report does not deal with education. Why would you list it for an education reference?

Edited January 24, 2014 by thailiketoo

[wym]

I think all this maybe comes from another Thaivisa myth thats been spouted so many times here we believe it to be true. Thai education may be inferior to Western countries

------

Not saying its not true, Im saying how the hell do any of us know?

Google "PISA results", the OECD has a standardized test given to hundreds of thousands of students in dozens of countries that objectively compares the results of their education systems.

Most recently administered end of 2012: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoBYy67QwoevdHIyc2Rha2VYamZ0LUl0Xy1TdUszRkE&usp=sharing#gid=0

few of us have direct experience of it so anything we say is pure hearsay.

Over fifteen years I've worked in three international schools in Thailand - two among the top, one third-tier, and five "elite" international/English programmes, both government-school "charter/pilot" programs in conjunction with teacher-training universities and private schools. And stints at some of the top university international graduate programmes teaching English.

I've also been the director of an organisation that sponsors NGO and embassy funded teacher training programs with hundreds of teachers from all over the country coming through each month.

ONLY at the two top international schools were educational standards anything but woeful.

[MrBrad]

Wym, I've readily agreed with all that you've posted on this thread, but I have to object with your quotes in post #134 above. Those are not my words nor my sentiments, but rather those of tullynagardy. Please be careful in editing quotes. Thanks.

[wym]

My humble apologies, completely unintentional.

[yourauntbob]

No, you are reading a lot that isn't there. Your explanations are yours and your only. Not hers.

I understand you are content and seem to be quite satisfied with your lot in life. I am not picking a fight with you. I really enjoy your view on life and am more of a supporter here than anything.

However, I am not reading a lot into what is not there because I am reading what is, in fact there. What is not there is what she says. You do not say what she says, and were you to come back and state anything she says which supports your view about her feelings, thoughts and performance... well... I would sincerely question whether or not the motivating force which caused her to say it is not due to your influence, or her saying it because she thinks that that is what you would want to hear.

My point: I know Thais, and I know Kreung Jai, and I know that trying to get any GF or fiance or Spouse to open up and truly reveal their heart (if they even remotely think that what they are about to say is going to be awkward) is impossible. Anyone finding an exception to this is certainly not going to be talking with a Thai who will wait on them hand and foot, and do it for nothing more than the benefit of being graced by the presence of you or anyone in their life.

Moreover, everything you have painted in all of your posts points to your interpretation of what she is actually doing, and what you are actually doing. You express your views and interpretations of why she does something and you state that she does indeed do things which cater to your needs and your wants; cooking, cleaning, errand running, shopping, etc. That is not love, my friend.

I am not arguing. I am not here to accuse or incriminate. It sounds to me like you have a suave lifestyle.

The thing is, youauntbob, I simply don't buy the bill of goods you are selling to define who she is, and what she thinks, and why she does what she does... all based upon your interpretations.

It simply seems rather odd that you take a lot of time to express your approval of her ways and dote over her and sum it all up to how much she loves you and does all of this because she is blessed with your presence in her life, ...and in one mere comment (IMO), dash that all to the ground, "And if the day comes where she wises up and realizes she can do soo much better than me, I will be on the next plane out of here."

Wises up to what? So, I guess the point of her "wising up" to that mysterious thing possibly reserves aside some kind of fear or "watchfulness" within, on your part, that she may some day realize the very thing I and others are implying very strongly; she is a servant... a doer for you.

I guess that is why you did not make any statements with respect that the two of you have candid talks; that you two discuss deep intimate and emotional issues in your lives and take it to that deep, inner level that only two people who fluently understand the depths of each others souls and have absolute trust and loyalty in each other.

Issuing a public warning of what you will do in the event she wises up, and telling that she puts her mother and father first; over you, her husband, with all due respect, places her in the role of servant, as far as I am concerned; but if you want to entitle her with the label of "wife" (at least until she "wises up"), then be my guest.

Peace and respect

soo much here, not sure where to start. i didnt mention the fact that we have in depth talks about life because in my opinion, that is not an expression of love. i have long in depth talks with many people i dont love, this post is turning into one . its funny that i read this post after we just had a 3 hour breakfast discussion the Thai political situaion/economy compared to the USA's political situation and economy. but again, i have had this discussion with some of the parents of my students (whom i dont "love") and friends. in my opinion love IS shown through the small things. like when she goes out of her way to make me happy or i do the same for her. and believe it or not, not every Thai person is the same. we happen to have a relationship where Kreung Jai is left at the door when we walk in the house. just because you have not experienced this, doesnt mean it doesn't exist. when she is pissed at me or displeased with something i have done (or vise versa) we talk it out, there is no pretending everything is ok. that would be unhealthy.

Blessed with my presence? where did you get that from?

i say there may be a time that she wises up and realizes she is too good for me to emphasis how lucky i am to have such a great person in my life. her "wising up" is not to say i take advantage of her as you imply. its more to say if she wanted to find a better looking, wealthier, yet still kindhearted person she would be able to without much trouble. i am not soo full of myself as to believe there is no one better out their than me.

i appreciate your post, and am not looking to argue. as i reply to many of these posts i wonder why i even care what people are thinking, but then again when i made the OP i knew i was exposing myself to criticism. i was just not expecting people would be reading into the post everything short of human trafficking. good thing i didnt mention we have visited my home town a few times, maybe people would have assumed i was pimping her out as well.

Edited January 25, 2014 by yourauntbob

[thailiketoo]

I think all this maybe comes from another Thaivisa myth thats been spouted so many times here we believe it to be true. Thai education may be inferior to Western countries

------

Not saying its not true, Im saying how the hell do any of us know?

Google "PISA results", the OECD has a standardized test given to hundreds of thousands of students in dozens of countries that objectively compares the results of their education systems.

Most recently administered end of 2012: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoBYy67QwoevdHIyc2Rha2VYamZ0LUl0Xy1TdUszRkE&usp=sharing#gid=0

few of us have direct experience of it so anything we say is pure hearsay.

Over fifteen years I've worked in three international schools in Thailand - two among the top, one third-tier, and five "elite" international/English programmes, both government-school "charter/pilot" programs in conjunction with teacher-training universities and private schools. And stints at some of the top university international graduate programmes teaching English.

I've also been the director of an organisation that sponsors NGO and embassy funded teacher training programs with hundreds of teachers from all over the country coming through each month.

ONLY at the two top international schools were educational standards anything but woeful.

That is a very extensive background in Thai education. What is one practical change the Thai education system could make at no or low cost that would improve education here?

[wym]

That is a very extensive background in Thai education. What is one practical change the Thai education system could make at no or low cost that would improve education here?

As long as you don't mean "practical" in the sense of "likely possible"

For all employees of the MoE and school administrators to have a fundamental change of heart and both renounce corruption and admit they need help from overseas.

If that were the case, then the government money currently spent on education would be more than sufficient, and in fact the huge amounts spent by the private sector on extra tutoring would be freed up for other purposes.

Without that - at least to some degree - I don't think there's any hope of solutions no matter how much extra money is thrown at the problem.

I hope I didn't give the impression I was optimistic. . .

Edited January 25, 2014 by wym

[thailiketoo]

That is a very extensive background in Thai education. What is one practical change the Thai education system could make at no or low cost that would improve education here?

As long as you don't mean "practical" in the sense of "likely possible"

For all employees of the MoE and school administrators to have a fundamental change of heart and both renounce corruption and admit they need help from overseas.

If that were the case, then the government money currently spent on education would be more than sufficient, and in fact the huge amounts spent by the private sector on extra tutoring would be freed up for other purposes.

Without that - at least to some degree - I don't think there's any hope of solutions no matter how much extra money is thrown at the problem.

I hope I didn't give the impression I was optimistic. . .

Of course I mean practical. I said practical. Remember Michell Rhee from Wa DC (good rhyme eh?) She was a good idea but hardly practical.

Thais can't be any more difficult than teacher's union members from Washington DC.

One of the nice things about being a primitive people is the ease with which they are swayed by relatively simplistic media programs. (See Plaek Phibunsongkhram Cultural Mandates)

If renouncing corruption did not work in DC what makes you think it would work in Thailand?

Anyway Chicago has a great education system so what does corruption have to do with it?

Edited January 25, 2014 by thailiketoo

[bundoi]

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned in thinking that the purpose of travel is to broaden your mind.

Seems that for a good many here it's just the opposite.

[wym]

Anyway Chicago has a great education system so what does corruption have to do with it?

You were the one stating that my suggestions couldn't cost any extra money.

Practical solutions require money, has to come from somewhere.

If the corruption remains then improving things requires spending more.

[thailiketoo]

Anyway Chicago has a great education system so what does corruption have to do with it?

You were the one stating that my suggestions couldn't cost any extra money.

Practical solutions require money, has to come from somewhere.

If the corruption remains then improving things requires spending more.

I'm not trying to be obtuse but I don't see the connection between corruption and a bad education.

Surly you know that China is as corrupt as Thailand (or close to it) and they scored number 1 on the Pisa test. So using your own measure of education excellence corruption has nothing to do with it.

Chicago had the Daley family for 40 years and a good education system. No, I just don't see the link. If corruption created bad education what happened to Shanghai China which scored better than the UK and US and Australia and all of Europe on the Pisa test. Shanghai, Macau and Hong Kong all scored better than the UK and they are all in China. Vietnam and Ireland scored better than the UK too but still......

[wym]

You may not be trying but. . .

Corruption was not the main point of what I wrote, only necessary due to your impractical request that any solution not cost additional money.

My point was simply that eliminating corruption would free the money up for the required improvements - hiring foreigners to take over management of the system - without having to expand the budget.

Without that restriction of course the system can be improved allowing the corruption to continue.

[JLCrab]

So you line up everyone in the Ministry of Education at the HQ in Bangkok and all;the various regional & provincial offices and ask them " Are you corrupt?" and if they say Yes! you tell them that they are eliminated.

[thailiketoo]

You may not be trying but. . .

Corruption was not the main point of what I wrote, only necessary due to your impractical request that any solution not cost additional money.

My point was simply that eliminating corruption would free the money up for the required improvements - hiring foreigners to take over management of the system - without having to expand the budget.

Without that restriction of course the system can be improved allowing the corruption to continue.

China is corrupt and scored #1, numero uno on the test you said gauges education excellence.

Thailand is corrupt and scored much lower on the test you said gauges education excellence.

What is China doing that Thailand (or the UK and USA who both scored much lower than China) is not doing?

Edited January 25, 2014 by thailiketoo

[wym]

So you line up everyone in the Ministry of Education at the HQ in Bangkok and all;the various regional & provincial offices and ask them " Are you corrupt?" and if they say Yes! you tell them that they are eliminated.

I believe I made clear that such a change must come from within the hearts and minds of the Thai people, or maybe a benevolent dictator with the country's interests at heart implementing a police state with the secret police only composed of honest obedient and altruistic people.

I have no idea how to otherwise implement such changes given all the contributing conditions that seem just as intractable. Any attempt to actually solve this problem given the status quo would probably lead to more negative unintended consequences more severe than the original problem, like Mr T's approach to the war on drugs.

China is corrupt and scored #1, numero uno on the test you said gauges education excellence.

Thailand is corrupt and scored much lower on the test you said gauges education excellence.

What is China doing that Thailand (or the UK and USA who both scored much lower than China) is not doing?

I don't know why I have to keep saying this: I don't think corruption is even a major cause of the problem.

And note only the foreign/capitalist enclaves of Shanghai, Hong Kong and Macau have seen these recent improvements, not the country as a whole.

I have no idea what specific changes have led to their success. Personally I suspect they've devoted as many resources toward gaming the measurement process as the substantive changes.

I know a lot of research is available on Finland though, a bit of googling will I'm sure lead you to some enlightenment.

[thailiketoo]

I don't know why I have to keep saying this: I don't think corruption is even a major cause of the problem.

And note only the foreign/capitalist enclaves of Shanghai, Hong Kong and Macau have seen these recent improvements, not the country as a whole.

I have no idea what specific changes have led to their success. Personally I suspect they've devoted as many resources toward gaming the measurement process as the substantive changes.

I know a lot of research is available on Finland though, a bit of googling will I'm sure lead you to some enlightenment.

Not true.

You wrote 1. "All employees of the MoE and school administrators to have a fundamental change of heart and both renounce corruption."

2. "And admit they need help from overseas."

The above is what you said, "No corruption and help from overseas."

China is corrupt and has no help from overseas. So why should Thailand need to be not corrupt and have help from overseas when China does not?

You said, " All employees of the MoE and school administrators to have a fundamental change of heart and both renounce corruption and admit they need help from overseas."

I didn't say it. You did. No help from overseas and no corruption. But China scores above the UK, Australia and the USA. So I guess you don't know what you are talking about do you?

If China can do it with corruption and no help from overseas why can't Thailand?

Did you have in mind hiring Chinese school Administrators?

Since Shanghai, Hong Kong and Macau all scored better than the USA, UK, and Australia why not hire Chinese administrators. I doubt they make more money than the Thai administrators now employed and are used to working with corruption.

By George, I think you've got it. Hire corrupt Chinese school administrators from Shanghai and all the problems are solved.

PS I don't think the Chinese are hip to the "Socratic method" so you don't have to mess with those critical thinking ideas either.

Edited January 25, 2014 by thailiketoo

[desi]

Auntbob, why do you live here if you hate the culture sooo much? First, there are some parts of the culture I do enjoy. But, to answer your question, my wife. She is one of the most selfless people I have ever had the pleasure to meet. After a hard day of work, she comes home and cooks a nice western dinner for me while I sit on the couch and post on TV. She then throws some Thai soup in the microwave for herself so we can eat together. Yes, she reheats her food so mine can be fresh. Her priority list for just about everything in life is always her parents, then me, then her friends and finally herself. 90% of her complaints to me are out of caring for my health and safety. She doesn’t care if I want to go out and a have a few drinks with friends, but how I will get home. She buys me sweets daily because she knows I like them, but in small quantities so I don’t over eat. When she cooks my meals she goes out of her way to buy quality ingredients so less butter, sugar, and salt need to be added. I am not allowed to own a motor bike, so she took me out car shopping and helped me buy the car so I am safe. I am lucky to have found her and count my blessing, she is worth putting up with all of the above. That being said, if it wasn’t for her I would have been out of this country years ago. And if the day comes where she wises up and realizes she can do soo much better than me, I will be on the next plane out of here.

=======================

i think you are a selfish, egocentric farang, who live in Thailand and married a servant in order to save costs. Your description of your wife depicts a servant, not a normal healthy relationship. I guess you were not able to find such a good and cheap servant in your country - and possibly in your country having sex with your servant would be considered an offence.

Thai culture IS Thailand, same as French culture IS France, American culture IS America and so on. If the culture upsets you so much, why don't you take your wife to your home country? Ah, she wont stay the servant you want over there, will she???

Why do we have a LIKE button but no UNLIKE button?

[thailiketoo]

Auntbob, why do you live here if you hate the culture sooo much? First, there are some parts of the culture I do enjoy. But, to answer your question, my wife. She is one of the most selfless people I have ever had the pleasure to meet. After a hard day of work, she comes home and cooks a nice western dinner for me while I sit on the couch and post on TV. She then throws some Thai soup in the microwave for herself so we can eat together. Yes, she reheats her food so mine can be fresh. Her priority list for just about everything in life is always her parents, then me, then her friends and finally herself. 90% of her complaints to me are out of caring for my health and safety. She doesn’t care if I want to go out and a have a few drinks with friends, but how I will get home. She buys me sweets daily because she knows I like them, but in small quantities so I don’t over eat. When she cooks my meals she goes out of her way to buy quality ingredients so less butter, sugar, and salt need to be added. I am not allowed to own a motor bike, so she took me out car shopping and helped me buy the car so I am safe. I am lucky to have found her and count my blessing, she is worth putting up with all of the above. That being said, if it wasn’t for her I would have been out of this country years ago. And if the day comes where she wises up and realizes she can do soo much better than me, I will be on the next plane out of here.

=======================

i think you are a selfish, egocentric farang, who live in Thailand and married a servant in order to save costs. Your description of your wife depicts a servant, not a normal healthy relationship. I guess you were not able to find such a good and cheap servant in your country - and possibly in your country having sex with your servant would be considered an offence.

Thai culture IS Thailand, same as French culture IS France, American culture IS America and so on. If the culture upsets you so much, why don't you take your wife to your home country? Ah, she wont stay the servant you want over there, will she???

Why do we have a LIKE button but no UNLIKE button?

Because most Thai Visa members would rather write a post describing dislike and have a hard time writing anything positive about anything. So they have a button saving the negative people the embarrassment of writing anything positive in a Thai forum.

[wym]

I'd rather converse with people honestly trying to learn from each other rather than just arguing for the sake of arguing.

I am sure the people responsible for those cities' excellent performance would also be very helpful for other countries not just Thailand.

I have no idea if they are Chinese or not.

And for the umpteenth time, the only reason I mentioned corruption is your "no extra cost" proviso - I don't think that's an important reason for Thai education's problems, just for wasting money.

And while the reading, maths and science skills reflected in the PISA scores aren't "socratic" in themselves, I think you'll find many of the test questions do require the ability to think laterally/creatively/critically.

I completely admit that extensive and deep experience in critical/creative thinking is a separate issue from the skills these tests measure.

Both are required IMO for a good education.

Thailand's system delivers neither.