Cement Question

[Neeranam]

I have a bag of cement and want to use it to fix two wooden colmns in my garden.

Can I pour the powder cement into the hole then just add water?

Do I need to use sand?

Yes, I know I haven't got a clue.

[JesseFrank]

To " fix " a column you purchase fiber cement, available in small buckets, just mix with water and pour on the column.

[CharlieH]

As far as I know, yes, you need to mix with sand or aggregate gravel etc.

You can mix and add water in usual way ( best way) or dry mix and then add water later and mix in the hole.

Edited February 2, 2014 by CharlieH

[Morakot]

wooden colmns

I'm not sure why you want to use a cement based mixture?

[wayned]

Setting wooden columns in cement is a mistake. You should buy two short cement columns with a base, maybe 1 - 1.5 maters long with and "L" shaped top and cut a matching "L" on the column and attach it to the cement with bolts after the cement drys. You need to mix the cement with sand and gravel and water and pour it in the hole after you have placed and leveled your posts.

The columns come in different sizes, 4", 5" 6" etc.

[Neeranam]

Setting wooden columns in cement is a mistake. You should buy two short cement columns with a base, maybe 1 - 1.5 maters long with and "L" shaped top and cut a matching "L" on the column and attach it to the cement with bolts after the cement drys. You need to mix the cement with sand and gravel and water and pour it in the hole after you have placed and leveled your posts.

The columns come in different sizes, 4", 5" 6" etc.

I want to make a 2m long fence. I don't understand what you mean - "with a base 1-1.5m long".

I don't want to attch to cement. Simply dig a hole about 4" x 4" on my lawn and stick in the poles and strengthen with cement.

[Mooner]

You dont need sand. Cement is mixed with sand to make it pliable . The only problem with putting cement against wood is that it will rot it but it will last a few years.

[Morakot]

I don't want to attch to cement. Simply dig a hole about 4" x 4" on my lawn and stick in the poles and strengthen with cement.

Now I understand what you mean.

Yes it is possible to use a sand/ gravel cement mixture to fix them in the ground, but it only really works with old timber that has dried out quite a bit. Using cement by its own is possible if you mix it into the soil. But as said above it will only last for some time as it will eventually rot.

A better way to improve the ground to give the columns more stability is to use "dry stones". You need to dig a larger hole and build up a ring of stones in a drywall fashion around the column and cover each layer with soil. If you charcoal the top lay of the timber that will be underground, you might be able to reduce the potential of rot quite a bit.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Morakot

[Daffy D]

Setting wooden columns in cement is a mistake. You should buy two short cement columns with a base, maybe 1 - 1.5 maters long with and "L" shaped top and cut a matching "L" on the column and attach it to the cement with bolts after the cement drys. You need to mix the cement with sand and gravel and water and pour it in the hole after you have placed and leveled your posts.

The columns come in different sizes, 4", 5" 6" etc.

I want to make a 2m long fence. I don't understand what you mean - "with a base 1-1.5m long".

I don't want to attch to cement. Simply dig a hole about 4" x 4" on my lawn and stick in the poles and strengthen with cement.

Yes you can do just that.

You should mix the cement with sand and stones to give you some volume other wise you will use a LOT of cement. You can buy small ready mixed bags of sand/cement that is used for bricklaying or rendering if your holes are not too big might suit you.

Yes you can fill the holes with dry mix and add water later.

As someone already said not good idea to plant wood posts into cement, they will go rotten but maybe not as quickly as if they were planted directly into the earth.

I would suggest standing the bottom of your fence posts in a bucket of wood preservative for a couple of days before use, they may last longer.

[Neeranam]

I don't want to attch to cement. Simply dig a hole about 4" x 4" on my lawn and stick in the poles and strengthen with cement.

Now I understand what you mean.

Yes it is possible to use a sand/ gravel cement mixture to fix them in the ground, but it only really works with old timber that has dried out quite a bit. Using cement by its own is possible if you mix it into the soil. But as said above it will only last for some time as it will eventually rot.

A better way to improve the ground to give the columns more stability is to use "dry stones". You need to dig a larger hole and build up a ring of stones in a drywall fashion around the column and cover each layer with soil. If you charcoal the top lay of the timber that will be underground, you might be able to reduce the potential of rot quite a bit.

How deep should the hole be if the column is 2m high?

[Morakot]

I don't want to attch to cement. Simply dig a hole about 4" x 4" on my lawn and stick in the poles and strengthen with cement.

Now I understand what you mean.

Yes it is possible to use a sand/ gravel cement mixture to fix them in the ground, but it only really works with old timber that has dried out quite a bit. Using cement by its own is possible if you mix it into the soil. But as said above it will only last for some time as it will eventually rot.

A better way to improve the ground to give the columns more stability is to use "dry stones". You need to dig a larger hole and build up a ring of stones in a drywall fashion around the column and cover each layer with soil. If you charcoal the top lay of the timber that will be underground, you might be able to reduce the potential of rot quite a bit.

How deep should the hole be if the column is 2m high?

If these poles are to be 2m out of the ground, I would try to have them about 40-50cm in the ground. So they should be about 2.5 m long.

What kind of fence you're looking at? Just wires/ mesh? Than this would be more than enough.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Morakot

[cooked]

I don't want to attch to cement. Simply dig a hole about 4" x 4" on my lawn and stick in the poles and strengthen with cement.

Now I understand what you mean.

Yes it is possible to use a sand/ gravel cement mixture to fix them in the ground, but it only really works with old timber that has dried out quite a bit. Using cement by its own is possible if you mix it into the soil. But as said above it will only last for some time as it will eventually rot.

A better way to improve the ground to give the columns more stability is to use "dry stones". You need to dig a larger hole and build up a ring of stones in a drywall fashion around the column and cover each layer with soil. If you charcoal the top lay of the timber that will be underground, you might be able to reduce the potential of rot quite a bit.

How deep should the hole be if the column is 2m high?

If these poles are to be 2m out of the ground, I would try to have them about 40-50cm in the ground. So they should be about 2.5 m long.

What kind of fence you're looking at? Just wires/ mesh? Than this would be more than enough.

Yes, and throw in as many stones/rubble as you can, compacting with a hammer. You can still throw your cement + water in there as you build up as it will go hard on you pretty soon if you don't use it soon.

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[sirineou]

Is the bag you have, Cement, or is it cement mix?(cement already mixed with sand)

Many people that are not familiar with concrete work often make the mistake of confusing the two(cement is the binder , cement mix is concrete)

if it is cement mix, then it is ready to use, if it is only cement it need to be mixed with sand, (cement by it'self has very little strength)

if does not already have gravel in it, you can throw some in there to make the concrete go further.

1 part cement to 3 parts sand is adequate for your purpose and will yield 3000 psi concrete

putting wood in concrete results in the wood rotting faster, there are some ways to mitigate this

you can use pressure treated wood, you can wrap the section of the wood,that will be in the cement with tar paper, or you can paint the wood with tar, this will help prevent the wood from rotting faster.An other thing you want to do is slop the top of the cement away from the wood so that any water runs away from the wood and does not pool there,

In Thailand where do to the humidity an termites wood does not last long, they sell precast concrete posts, often they are less expensive than the wood, I suggest you use those, they have pre-drilled holes in them for attaching fencing material.

You don't necessarily have to mix the concrete mix with water before pouring it in the hole.

Mixing it with water before hand is ideal as it makes a much stronger concrete, but in situations where you have a lot of holes to fill , pouring it in the hole dry, and mixing it with water in the hole works.

This being Thailand where labor is cheap, I would pay the extra 400 bht and have some one mix your concrete and help you pour it.

[wayned]

You dont need sand. Cement is mixed with sand to make it pliable . The only problem with putting cement against wood is that it will rot it but it will last a few years.

The cement that is sold here in 50 kilo bags is not mixed with sand, it is pure cement. You must add sand or sand and gravel + water. You would only add fine sand if you were going to use it as render but should also add gravel if you are using it for footings. One 50 kilo bag of cement mixed with 10 small buckets of sand, mix well. Add water and continue mixing as you gradually add 10 buckets of gravel. Continue adding water until you get the consistency that you want. I have never seen bagged "ready mix" here, but live in the boonies and have never looked for it either.

If you do not want problems in the future, I would not put the posts in Cement. I would use 1 meter concrete piers with the "L" shaped connection on the top and cut the post to fit and bolt it to the pier. In the future when the post rots it can be unbolted and a new one put on. If you cement the post in the ground when it rots now you have a large block of concrete that must be dug out before you can replace the posts.

I have built pasture fences all of my life and if we used wooden posts we never used cement. Just dug a hole with a "clam shell" post hole digger and packed the removed dirt around it.

[Mrjlh]

Just as a reminder, "Termites" will eat your wooden posts in no time unless you treat the posts or use per-treated wood.

[sirineou]

A couple of years ago when I build my fence and I was researching my options, I had seen the 3 m high precast concrete posts for 180 bht each

at that price why would anyone want to put wood, (except if you already have the wood or like the look) They have pre-drilled holes to attach what ever fencing material you want on them. If I had a long length of fence to do that is the way to go.

They had even stronger Fence posts for a little over 500 bht. By now I suspect the price might had gone up a little bit.

[Neeranam]

Thanks for the replies. Now I'm thinking of making them metal posts and then add the wooden pickets.

[wayned]

The concrete post as stated in the above post would be the best and you can attach either wood or steel above ground. I have about 40 meters of picket fence closing in my back patio. I used wood initially but as they rot and need to be replaced I use the "sherawood" (spelling) pickets, they even come in colors. They will last longer. My fence was up about 12 years before I had to replace some pickets.

Edited February 3, 2014 by wayned

[sirineou]

I also used the sherawood pickets. they have being up for 5 years now and they look like new

[Mooner]

You dont need sand. Cement is mixed with sand to make it pliable . The only problem with putting cement against wood is that it will rot it but it will last a few years.

The cement that is sold here in 50 kilo bags is not mixed with sand, it is pure cement. You must add sand or sand and gravel + water. You would only add fine sand if you were going to use it as render but should also add gravel if you are using it for footings. One 50 kilo bag of cement mixed with 10 small buckets of sand, mix well. Add water and continue mixing as you gradually add 10 buckets of gravel. Continue adding water until you get the consistency that you want. I have never seen bagged "ready mix" here, but live in the boonies and have never looked for it either.

If you do not want problems in the future, I would not put the posts in Cement. I would use 1 meter concrete piers with the "L" shaped connection on the top and cut the post to fit and bolt it to the pier. In the future when the post rots it can be unbolted and a new one put on. If you cement the post in the ground when it rots now you have a large block of concrete that must be dug out before you can replace the posts.

I have built pasture fences all of my life and if we used wooden posts we never used cement. Just dug a hole with a "clam shell" post hole digger and packed the removed dirt around it.

Agree with what your saying. My point is adding cement and water to the hole would make it go off hard as rock. Not the best idea to use wood if you want it to last forever. As mentioned, buy the concrete posts.