Work online. Do I need a work permit?

[Thaiger Tim]

Hello forum,

Newbie here. I've been looking but I can't seem to find a straight answer to this question. I'm looking at Thailand as a place to stay, hopefully for an extended time; at least a year. I have my own business operated online in Europe and US - nothing tangible shipped into or out of Thailand though. I would be 'working', going online to do my work, and I would be 'in Thailand', therefore, 'working in Thailand'. Will I need a Thai work permit?

Thanks.

[ubonjoe]

By law yes you do need a work permit but getting one is not possible unless you are working for a Thai company or one that you setup yourself (costly to do and maintain)..

Many people are doing what you are planning without one by keeping a low profile about what they are doing.

[Thaiger Tim]

Thank you. This is what I had been thinking but was not entirely sure. As I would be investing a whole lot to move there, would living there and skirting the law be a wise move? The authorities could get very nasty at any moment and cause me big trouble. Should this be a real concern or, am I being obsessive about it and should not worry?

[ubonjoe]

The chances of getting caught are small as long as you keep what you are doing a closely guarded secret.

[Thaiger Tim]

Understood. ; )

I apprecitate the affirmative answer. This subject seems to be grey area for many people.

[olddoc]

Perhaps of greater issue is the question of a visa which permits an extended stay !

[Thaiger Tim]

That is my next step. I thought best to clear my way with the permit question first as it would be a deal breaker to not be able to run business and make a living. I can qualify for the retirement visa but I'm not sure if it's the best option. Other questions arise. Suppose I deposit funds as required into a Thai bank. Suppose then by some chance of fate, my work activity is discovered and made an issue of. Could my bank funds be seized and me sent packing on the next flight out of BKK? 90-day visa runs wouldn't hurt, so a lesser status of visa might do to start and I can upgrade after I've assimilated and learned the native ways.

[Mario2008]

If caught with working without a work permit you can be fined and jailed. The law prefers that you negotiate a fine with the officials and leave the country.

[ubonjoe]

That is my next step. I thought best to clear my way with the permit question first as it would be a deal breaker to not be able to run business and make a living. I can qualify for the retirement visa but I'm not sure if it's the best option. Other questions arise. Suppose I deposit funds as required into a Thai bank. Suppose then by some chance of fate, my work activity is discovered and made an issue of. Could my bank funds be seized and me sent packing on the next flight out of BKK? 90-day visa runs wouldn't hurt, so a lesser status of visa might do to start and I can upgrade after I've assimilated and learned the native ways.

I would get the retirement extension of stay here or a OA visa from the embassy or a official consulate in your home country.

You would not immediately be sent out of the country certain legal proceedings would be required before that might happen. They would not seize your assets..

It would also require a fairly high level of proof that you were working illegally. Hearsay would not be enough.

[Judge by nature]

What kind of online work is this? I wanna do that too. I do have the work permit.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[maanoi]

Don't mean to hijack this thread but has anyone tried talking to immigration about making some sort of visa / work permit for online workers? The income would of course be taxed and a lot of foreigners would now have legit visas. Seems like a win win????

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[hotrod4098]

if offering information .is working..then online working is sure working..

if its ebay..its easy to get caught ,,as the post office would tell immigration when required....

lie pattaya immigration comes and says ..you are working,,you a have a choice..pay what they want and it goes away...or go

monkey house,,and it costs a lot more and time...

only work in thailand with the correct visa

[OMGImInPattaya]

My question is of the 195 countries in the world where one could potentially live and work, why did you Thailand? This is especially so as if you go the route you are planning, you will be breaking the law and subject to arrest, fines, and/or imprisonment. Oh, let me guess, you love Thai food.

Edited February 9, 2014 by OMGImInPattaya

[WitawatWatawit]

If it's online, I really can't see how anyone can prove you are working in Thailand. I know several people who do this and quite openly. I also work over the internet, but have a local work permit through my Thai contractor, yet never has anyone ever approached me in any way regarding my work. If you're going to outlay a considerable sum to live here, then just a little bit more would be worthwhile to get proper legal advice. One of the TV advertisers, Siam Legal, should be able to help. Good luck.

[elliottm]

Thank you. This is what I had been thinking but was not entirely sure. As I would be investing a whole lot to move there, would living there and skirting the law be a wise move? The authorities could get very nasty at any moment and cause me big trouble. Should this be a real concern or, am I being obsessive about it and should not worry?

Thaiger, I'm afraid any work/effort on behalf of any business is ILLEGAL without a WP (Working Aliens Act).

You face jail (communal Thai cell/'TOILET'), heavy court fine & being kicked out of the country for up to 1/2 a decade.

Edited February 9, 2014 by elliottm

[attento]

Depending on the nature of the business, but one option to consider is keeping your business offshore. Banking, admin, legal, etc.

Office services in offshore location can handle most things.

Keep personal and business affairs absolutely separate.

[domu]

I read on this forum about a year ago in an interview of high ranking members of immigration and labor office that if you don't get any income from Thailand, working here is not really legal but "acceptable". I don't really know what it means but if you don't talk about it, don't give your business cards all around, nothing will happen. Remember that most of the farangs who had problems here were denounced by other jalous farangs!

[stickylies]

any chance TV could make some sort of FAQ ... this question has been asked a 1000 times.

[advancebooking]

Thank you. This is what I had been thinking but was not entirely sure. As I would be investing a whole lot to move there, would living there and skirting the law be a wise move? The authorities could get very nasty at any moment and cause me big trouble. Should this be a real concern or, am I being obsessive about it and should not worry?

Thaiger, I'm afraid any work/effort on behalf of any business is ILLEGAL without a WP (Working Aliens Act).

You face jail (communal Thai cell/'TOILET'), heavy court fine & being kicked out of the country for up to 1/2 a decade.

but the likelihood is next to nothing. Thailand is not a nanny state. Ignore the folk on here with the above theories.

[bander]

Yes, if you tell immigration about it you need WP.

BTW, if you not tell anybody, nobody knows.

[johnopolo]

Okay Tiger, if you re-read all of the above, your question has been comprehensively answered. To summarise other peoples postings:

1. ANY kind of work whilst in Thailand without the requisite permit is illegal. No fancy lawyer is going to change that - no matter how much you get charged!

2. If you get caught then "You potentially face jail (communal Thai cell/'TOILET'), heavy court fine & being kicked out of the country for up to 1/2 a decade."

3. They (probably) wouldn't confiscate your assets.

4. If there are no on-shore consequences (bank accounts, money trails, etc.) you're on pretty safe ground.

5. If you keep absolutely quiet about it - especially to the delightful GF(s) you're sure to find - there is only a minuscule chance of getting into trouble.

Go for it :-)

[HOOD Robin]

That is my next step. I thought best to clear my way with the permit question first as it would be a deal breaker to not be able to run business and make a living. I can qualify for the retirement visa but I'm not sure if it's the best option. Other questions arise. Suppose I deposit funds as required into a Thai bank. Suppose then by some chance of fate, my work activity is discovered and made an issue of. Could my bank funds be seized and me sent packing on the next flight out of BKK? 90-day visa runs wouldn't hurt, so a lesser status of visa might do to start and I can upgrade after I've assimilated and learned the native ways.

Fear is the worst adviser mate

Dont wake up sleeping dogs , just keep low profile

hundreds are doing this online stuff (actually not "stealing a job that a Thai also can do" )

[smotherb]

My question is of the 195 countries in the world where one could potentially live and work, why did you Thailand? This is especially so as if you go the route you are planning, you will be breaking the law and subject to arrest, fines, and/or imprisonment. Oh, let me guess, you love Thai food.

I am retired in Thailand with my non-Thai wife, we both like the food here . . . the weather . . . the lower cost of living . . . most of the Thais . . . some of the expats . . .

[ThaiSold]

You've got to be kidding me with half of these answers...the post office is going to dob you in! huh! I had a discount at the post office because I was sending so much ebay stuff. In fact I had a discount with DHL and Fedex AND an account with them also without a work permit. In fact you could go to the police and tell them that you gamble online, ain't nothin gonna happen without proof! How would someone prove that! You think the Thai police are online busting people without any cause get a grip, there are Thai's selling everything from drugs,guns,girls online and if noone complains noone cares. Rarely does anyone do jail time for working illegally provided you have enough for the fine typically around 30,000 baht and the only people they care about busting is people in the services industry because it's an easy case {you were playing music or you were behind the bar).

90% of the people who get caught in thailand working illegally do so through their own admission, maybe someone ratted them out sure but when the cops show up pressure you and threaten to lock you away for good if you don't tell them the "truth" so people confess and that's their evidence. Deny everything!

But in the end the whole question from this guy doesn't make sense. I know thousands of guys working online in Thailand not one of them are "investing a lot to come to Thailand" if you work online ain't nothing to invest so I kinda think your full of s^&*

[ukrules]

You're probably just using the internet and making phone calls.

They will NEVER ban this even though it's technically classed as work by the pedantic (see some posts above) as many people answer official work emails and take / make phone calls on behalf of their own companies / foreign employers, etc when they are here on holiday.

All it would take is 1 case of a foreigner being arrested for doing some online 'work' like emailing some instructions back to his employees or phoning some suppliers while on vacation in Thailand and the country would immediately be the laughing stock of the world and consular warnings would go out all over the world. Nobody with a decent job would ever go there again lest they need to send a work related email or speak to their managers, etc.

There was a similar debate going on for business meetings. I believe that one interpretation of the immigration rules means you are technically required to get a work permit to come to Thailand and visit a company for a meeting 'on business' to see some products being demonstrated or some other business related activity like inspecting a suppliers factory. If this was ever enforced it would just mean that people stop buying goods from Thai companies and go elsewhere.

If you're not working for a Thai company with a presence in Thailand then you're not working in Thailand.

I think people who do get in trouble are running a business inside Thailand, looking for new customers in Thailand, effectively trading in Thailand. They rent offices and have business cards with Thai addresses and contact details on them - don't do that. That's a sure sign you're running a business in Thailand.

[MaksimMislavsky]

I can't remember how many times I was asked by border checkpoint officers on seeing my passport full of Thai exit and entry stamps:

-Looks like you live in Thailand, is that right?

-Yes, that's right

-So, what do you do for living then? How do you support yourrself?

And I invariably give the honest answer:

- Working online. My customers are outside Thailand, they transfer money to my bank and I use it support to myself when in Thailand.

- Ok, that's great, - they always answer.

Never had any problem.

Law and "legality" just don't work in Thailand in the same way as what people are used to in the West.

Nothing to worry about.

[IMA_FARANG]

Don't mean to hijack this thread but has anyone tried talking to immigration about making some sort of visa / work permit for online workers? The income would of course be taxed and a lot of foreigners would now have legit visas. Seems like a win win????

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

---------------------

Making such a visa available would be a win-win for Thailand.

Of course allowing a foreigner to be self-employed and work legally on-line and requiring the foreigner to pay taxes on the money brought into Thailand that he or she earned would be a revenue benefit to the Thai government.

But it will not happen, the law doesn't read that way and the government doesn't want to interpret the law that way.

It's a shame because both the government and the individual would benefit from a more enlightened attitude toward on-line work by foreigners.

Unfortunately, all governments don't think logically, and Thailand is in the non logical thinking club.

So the answer to your original question is:

Yes, you need a work permit if you want to legally work on-line ..... but your very unlikely to be able to get one.

[asiamint]

A tourist visa is the the right visa you need. With that visa you are a tourist.

While being a tourist you have to check in and run your businesses outside of Thailand then that is fine.

When Mark zuck(facebook owner) visited Thailand as a tourist he checked In and ran his business. Could you imagine him being arrested for working illegally? Any Tourist with any business abroad would have to be deported.

Many hedge fund mangers/private Investors come to Thailand from around the world and rent villa's/stay in resorts for a couple of months and trade and work internationally buying and selling shares, that is no problem as well. Confirmed by lawyers and others with lots of advisers, these people don't get caught with their pants down, they have been told they are welcome to carry on trading as normal.

You cant ban people managing their businesses while they are on holiday. If that was the case they would have to arrest every occupant of a 5 star hotel, and soon they would be empty because no one would come here. Anybody worth their salt in business conducts deals/ organizes even on Holiday. I'm sure the Thai's understand that.

It's not a loophole it's just a fact(it would never pass the court stage, too embarrassing, imagine the headlines, tourists banned for managing their business while on holiday). If you have a tourist visa and do all business outside of Thailand then you will be fine

You must have a tourist visa, that is the only visa where this would be ok

Edited February 9, 2014 by asiamint

[IMA_FARANG]

A tourist visa is the the right visa you need. With that visa you are a tourist.

While being a tourist you have to check in and run your businesses outside of Thailand then that is fine.

When Mark zuck(facebook owner) visited Thailand as a tourist he checked In and ran his business. Could you imagine him being arrested for working illegally? Any Tourist with any business abroad would have to be deported.

Many hedge fund mangers/private Investors come to Thailand from around the world and rent villa's/stay in resorts for a couple of months and trade and work internationally buying and selling shares, that is no problem as well. Confirmed by lawyers and others with lots of advisers, these people don't get caught with their pants down, they have been told they are welcome to carry on trading as normal.

You cant ban people managing their businesses while they are on holiday. If that was the case they would have to arrest every occupant of a 5 star hotel, and soon they would be empty because no one would come here. Anybody worth their salt in business conducts deals/ organizes even on Holiday. I'm sure the Thai's understand that.

It's not a loophole it's just a fact(it would never pass the court stage, too embarrassing, imagine the headlines, tourists banned for managing their business while on holiday). If you have a tourist visa and do all business outside of Thailand then you will be fine

You must have a tourist visa, that is the only visa where this would be ok

-------------------

No that's not true.

Anything you sign in Thailand, even as the foreign CEO of the local Thai branch of an international company is technically "work" in Thailand and is therefore reportable for taxes.

However, because it makes no practical sense to actually try to enforce such a rule, the rule is just ignored.

Believe it or not, the Thais are quite a practical people.

If a government rule is stupid and unenforceable they just ignore it.

They are quite familiar with their own government passing stupid and unenforceable rules .... it's been that way for a long time.

Since the laws are often foolish, most Thais just ignore the foolish laws .... and just don't talk about it.

They have a life to live, and for most street level working Thais their government is and always will be made up of foolish politicians who have no apparent common sense.

So you just get on with your day to day life, and ignore the silly rules.

And, if worse comes to worst, a little "tea money" usually solves the problem with the authorities.

[lehmann]

1 year ago I was in the Thai ambassy in an european country and ask about something similar. They told me a very easy way to know. Where do you get the salary or income? Who pay you?

A Thai? A thai company? A person living on thailand? a company in Thailand?

no? Then you do not need a work allowance because you are not working in thailand

I just reproduce what they told me. They issued for me a business visa of 1 year, (I buy things in Thailand and export to Europe) and ready.