Aeon Bank now charge 150 B ATM fee

[Ticketmaster]

I'll go visit Lady AEON ATM today, slide my PenFed credit card in and see if she wants to charge me 150 baht....

To paraphrase the famous anthropologist Margaret Mead:

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can find every possible means of avoiding having to pay 150b to Thai banks every time they need to withdraw funds from their home bank accounts.

No shit!!! I've never seen a topic so beaten to death.

[MrWorldwide]

I'll go visit Lady AEON ATM today, slide my PenFed credit card in and see if she wants to charge me 150 baht....

To paraphrase the famous anthropologist Margaret Mead:

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can find every possible means of avoiding having to pay 150b to Thai banks every time they need to withdraw funds from their home bank accounts.

No shit!!! I've never seen a topic so beaten to death.

When you add the fees being charged by many overseas banks for currency conversion, I don't view the 150 baht per 20K impost (the maximum allowable withdrawal on many ATMs) as trivial. If we were discussing the cheapest place to get a Singha, I could understand your attitude - as it stands, no-one is holding a gun to your head and demanding that you participate in this thread. If thine eye offendeth thee ....

[Pib]

I'll go visit Lady AEON ATM today, slide my PenFed credit card in and see if she wants to charge me 150 baht....

To paraphrase the famous anthropologist Margaret Mead:

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can find every possible means of avoiding having to pay 150b to Thai banks every time they need to withdraw funds from their home bank accounts.

No shit!!! I've never seen a topic so beaten to death.

Since this topic gives you flashes of dead horse beating recommend you stop reading it. If it hurts doing something then stop doing that something.

Sent from my Onda V971 tablet

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just an update on my post #239 regarding the success I had in using my PenFed Visa "credit card" to do a Bt50K counter withdrawal at a Bangkok Bank branch without any local bank fee.

Thanks for all those details, and the good detective work, Pib!!

Please do post on how things turn out when all the dust settles.

I was particularly intrigued by a couple things:

--The PenFed rep saying your transaction looked like a purchase. I'll be very interested to see, in the end, if it's coded as a purchase or a cash advance by their system. (Purchases obviously having the free 30-day repayment window, and cash advances not).

--Settling just what exchange rate BKKB used for your transaction. It sounds like you're saying it looks like you got the VISA network rate, which would be great. But I wasn't sure, from various past posts on this subject, whether counter withdrawals typically get exchanged at the card network rate vs. the bank's buying TT rates.

--About the method the BKKB teller used, it sounds like she did a PIN-based withdrawal using their machine, just like you'd do at an ATM. Normally, those should show up almost immediately. But in PenFed's case, overall, I've noticed that they tend to be SLOW in posting transactions to my accounts, even during weekdays.

I just wish in the example you described, the teller had one of those little card reader machines at her window so that you could privately enter your PIN yourself, vs. having to tell her the PIN for her to use by herself out of your sight. I think I would feel not so comfortable about that approach.

[luckyluke]

I use monthly my MasterCard Gold, go inside my bank agency, present my passport, ask to put the amount on my bankbook.

They give me a slip I have to undersign, the change is always very close to the notes rate, I believe they consider this as a purchase, not as a cash advance.

I pay 4 Euro costs at my bank in Belgium, the amount taken here is debited from my account the 13th of the next month.

If I make a bank-transfer from Belgium to my account here, it takes 2/4 days and I pay 10 Euro costs + 250 ThB here, I have then the T/T rate, better rate but higher costs which make it more-less equal, but with my CrediCard I have my money immediately, I don't have to wait, and exempt of any possibly transfer problem.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

.

"As someone who's periodically been on the receiving end of credit card "charge denied" rejections, you're never quite sure when something is going to get flagged as suspected foreign fraud"

I've been traveling and/or living in Asia for 35 years. Even though I always keep a Credit Card handy, I only use it in emergencies. In Thailand, my CCs reside in a locked safe in my home. I don't even carry them with me.

I use them occasionally for on-line transactions - either that or Pay-Pal. I've never felt comfortable using a CC in Asia - too much chance of fraud or identity theft. It's happened to several friends of mine.

A couple of months ago when tens of millions in personal CC data was stolen in the US via the Target Stores and Neiman-Marcus CC swipe gadgets, a study was done to try to determine exactly how it was done. One comment that I vividly recall from one of the security experts was that every time a CC is used, that data goes through 12 nodes during processing. He emphasized that each and every one of those 12 nodes could become a point along the trail where the data was compromised.

Kinda like handing your CC to a waiter in a restaurant who decides to do more with it than just process your check-bin. While he's away from your table he shares your information with 12 of his waiter friends-- just in case they might want to play that game also . . .

.

I understand what you're saying SR, and I rarely use my credit cards here also, except for bigger ticket kinds of things like a medical expense or appliance purchase, etc.

But do keep in mind, from a fraud perspective, it's a whole lot easier to deal with an episode of fraud involving a U.S. issued credit card than it is with a U.S. issued debit card.

As long as you report the loss promptly, you're going to be protected ultimately either way. But in the case of a credit card, usually it's just a matter of calling or going online to dispute the charge, and you're done.

In the case of a fraudulent debit card charge, you obviously still have to contact the card issuing bank. But often, in a debit card loss, they seem to ask for a police report and filling out and sending in a paper affidavit form regarding the loss.

Not to mention, the fraudulent charges are actually funds taken out of your debit card account for a week or two until the charges get voided. Whereas with a fraudlent credit card charge, you're never actually out any real money, because the charges will be voided long before any bill comes due.

So, all in all, living here, I'd be more worried about debit card fraud, and less worried about potential credit card fraud as long as we're talking about U.S. based card. Thailand-issued cards, of course, are an entirely different matter.

[yourauntbob]

didnt realize so many people were using overseas cards. why not open an account here? you could do large transfers every few months from you account back home to an account here and just use your local card to take the cash as needed. this would reduce the fees a lot.

But with a no foreign transaction fee debit card like the Schwab debit card (there are other cards also) and when there was no Bt150 fee being charged by AEON, a person could get money instantly in hand from their home country bank account "with absolutely no fees along the way." Doing the bank transfer thing took a day or three to get the money posted to your Thai bank account and you had the transfer fees in the $10 to $40 ballpark to pay to your home country bank and/or local Thai bank. Heck, I hadn't done an funds transfer in over 2 years because I was just using a couple of no foreign transaction fee debit cards. And the Visa/Mastercard exchange is real close to the TT Buying Rate used for wire transfers...and the Visa exchange rate was quite often better than the TT Buying Rate.

if your using schwab (as i do) or any other bank that works similiarly then the fees are a non issue. my recommendation was for those who dont have access to such accounts or would prefer not to use them for what ever reason.

[damole]

I've been withdrawing money using my UK fee free debit card since the introduction of the 150Bt fee. I usually go to SCB which is my Thai bank but sometimes to Bangkok Bank. There are some branches of SCB which say they cannot do this kind of transaction and point me to the ATM, even though in one case I was able to show them a both receipts from another SCB branch where I'd made a withdrawal a few days before. I'm in Chiang Mai so I have my usual branches to go to. The transaction usually shows up a few days after the withdrawal but from the day I make the withdrawal my available balance (not current balance) shown in my online banking reflects the amount withdrawn.

The card I'm currently using is a Metrobank Mastercard debit card which is as far as I know the only fee fee card for foreign transactions and this will change to charging 1.9% from March 18th. Before that I used a Nationwide Visa debit card which was fee free for a long time before it changed also.

I've just applied for a Halifax Clarity Credit card which on UK money related sites is reported to be fee free even for cash withdrawals, interest is charged but maybe making a payment for the withdrawn amount on the day of withdrawal might circumvent the interest charge.

http://www.halifax.co.uk/travel/help-guidance/using-debit-credit-cards-abroad/

Click on the credit card tab to see the Clarity charges.

Of course most of this info is only useful to UK 'residents'.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks much for that info, Damole... It's good to add a UK perspective, and options, to the mix.

Please do post later on whether the Halifax credit card ends up working well as a fee-free cash advance option.

Also, it's a shame about the loss of MetroBank as a fee-free debit card option for UK folks. It was one of the relatively few really fee-free options for expat customers remaining out there in UK banking.

[maphraw]

The solution is simple - it just takes a few minutes longer. Just go into the bank with your passport & foreign credit/debit card & ask for a cash advance on your credit card. The trick is that the sum being requested must be higher than the ATM's usual maximum advance (THB 20,000?).

The bank does the paperwork, gets the authorisation, copies your passport (which you also sign) and the bank give you the cash. Best thing is that there's no fees! Not a single Baht & you get personalised service as part if the deal

Please make triple sure that your international bank will not charge you a % for doing this.

The Siam Commercial Bank that I use told me that getting money this way is more expensive than getting it from the ATM with the 150 baht fee. I didn't get the details and I am going back to get the exact charges. But the clerk assured me that it is more expensive than using the ATM machine.

[JusMe]

Thus, I'd really like to hear more details from those members who have been doing regular DEBIT counter withdrawals in the past -- what bank companies, what kinds of amounts, etc etc. -- in terms of finding what kind of approaches will actually work.

-------------------

Also, I believe there's one other difference in the CREDIT card vs. DEBIT card approach we haven't yet discussed here. And that is, the growing tendency of credit card companies to panic and suspect fraud anytime they see foreign country charges, and the card user hasn't done an advance "I'm traveling abroad to XXXXXX country" notification.

For information:

Recently, I've been using my DEBIT card from Canadian Western Bank with Interac, The Exchange, Cirrus, & Maestro logos on the back. I've been charged Cdn$3.00 per transaction by my own Canadian bank, but was avoiding Thai fees by using AEON. I haven't done any counter withdrawal, but when I need a decent amount of cash to top up my Bangkok Bank account, that's that I'll try.

In the past, before the imposition of those fees, I do believe I used the same card for getting cash from overseas to put into my Bangkok Bank account through their atm.

Again, a good number of years ago, I used my MasterCard for purchases overseas and had no difficulties. But just a few years ago, I had to spend more than an hour on the phone getting them to unblock my card as I'd used it without warning them that I was travelling outside my home location. And doing those 1-800 calls is so much fun, that I've recently convinced them to respond by phoning me when I send them an email saying there's a problem!

I do now warn them when I'm travelling, although rarely use the credit card. I just don't want the hassle of having it blocked again!

[SurfRider]

.
"it's a whole lot easier to deal with an episode of fraud involving a U.S. issued credit card than it is with a U.S. issued debit card ... So, all in all, living here, I'd be more worried about debit card fraud"

I agree, that's why I keep my Debit Cards in the safe also and only take them out when I need to pull cash from an ATM - I wouldn't carry them or use them for any other purchase transaction unless there was no other alternative. Better safe than sorry.
.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The solution is simple - it just takes a few minutes longer. Just go into the bank with your passport & foreign credit/debit card & ask for a cash advance on your credit card. The trick is that the sum being requested must be higher than the ATM's usual maximum advance (THB 20,000?).

The bank does the paperwork, gets the authorisation, copies your passport (which you also sign) and the bank give you the cash. Best thing is that there's no fees! Not a single Baht & you get personalised service as part if the deal

This is one of the issues/questions I've been asking about -- are the Thai banks willing to do counter withdrawals via credit or debit card for amounts UNDER the 20,000 baht more or less ATM threshholds.

Iang, did you have some experience about trying smaller counter withdrawal amounts, and if so, what happened with those?

[watcharacters]

.

Anyone who is a customer of Charles Schwab can call the bank as I did to get a clear understanding of why a debit card may have been cancelled. There are possible reasons for cancellation and they have not been mentioned in this thread. Those who post about it don't give full or complete information which is not in the least surprising considering the ...

Just call Schwab to find out. On True it's 006 1 800 435 4500. 3 baht a minute. Go on! No need to bash Schwab for following US laws and regulations.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Watcharacters... I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest above re Schwab...

Are you talking about something that happened in your own case, or commenting other members' posts?

And more to the point, are you suggesting or not suggesting that Schwab might cancel a checking account if the user were to have too many ATM debit reimbursements, since presumably that's the issue that pertains to this thread?

Or are you talking about U.S. vs. foreign residency issues when it comes to U.S. bank accounts?

In this thread, there's only been a few mentions of account cancellation issues with Schwab. And most of the time, no clear explanation of why was given in those posts.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The Siam Commercial Bank that I use told me that getting money this way is more expensive than getting it from the ATM with the 150 baht fee. I didn't get the details and I am going back to get the exact charges. But the clerk assured me that it is more expensive than using the ATM machine.

There may indeed some truth to that regarding Siam Commercial and cash advances, especially for larger amount advances.

For whatever reason, they appear to have quite different (and lower) rates for cash advances and credit card transactions. When I look at their currency exchange chart for today below, I see a full 1 baht lower rate shown at the very bottom of the chart for credit card cash advances (31.04) compared to their normal currency exchange rates (buying TT of 32.14).

And re the low 31.04 credit card cash advance rate listed at the bottom of their exchange chart, I see the following footnoted details:

For Credit Card (Cash Advance Rate) This rate is applicable for Credit Card issued by bank outside Thailand

I don't believe we see that in most other banks' currency exchange documents. And I'm not sure how Siam Commercial gets away with it, other than, presumably, banks can set whatever exchange rates they choose. And customers/cardholders can choose to use them or not.

Given that, unless someone who uses them has experience to the contrary, I'd be wary of using SCB for credit card cash advances. And I'm not entirely sure they wouldn't try the same thing or their lower Dynamic Currency Conversion rates with a debit card advance as well.

http://www.scb.co.th/scb_api/index.jsp

[JDGRUEN]

A few weeks ago I got a few thousand baht using an Aeon ATM... pleasant experience - a very favorable exchange rate and no fee... But as is obvious that has changed. Only a few days ago I had to get money from two ATMs on successive days. Aeon charged the 150 Baht and Bangkok Bank charged 180. I wish I had combined this -- but it just wasn't something I could plan. However, from initial postings - it seems like my bank (USAA Savings Bank) is going to reimburse the fees same at they do with domestic ATM charges They reimburse monthly - so it remains to be seen when the postings and statement come out... but for now - seems good for me.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Now it is obvious that the AEON option is gone now too. I believe I will now go back to using cash and travellers checks as I used to in the 80s and 90s. What a pathetic hassle.

It's been donkeys years since I ever handled traveler's checks. And they're probably more suited to tourists vs. expats.

But, the other night, I was passing by a TMB exchange booth near my supermarket that had a big sign up about "no fee" exchanges, whatever that means. And not a great exchange rate to boot.

When I looked closer, though, they had a paper sign pasted in the window talking about their fees for handling traveler's checks. And although I just looked quickly, I thought the sign said 150 BAHT PER CHECK and then the smaller per check fees about stamps and whatever.

Are per TC fees really 150 baht per check in Thailand these days???

Well, I guess my memory and eyesight are pretty good.

Today, I passed by the same TMB exchange booth, and yes indeed, they do have a sign posted saying their fee for handling traveler's checks is 150 baht per check, along with a 3 baht stamp fee, for a total of 153 baht per check.

Thus if you had a $50 or $100 U.S. $ traveler's check, they'd be charging you $5+ to exchange/get 1500 or 3000 baht, respectively. By comparison, using a regular ATM and paying the 150 baht fee to get 10K or 20K is a much better deal -- although, I don't advocate paying the 150 baht fee regardless.

Now, I don't know if all the different Thai banks have the same fees for handling traveler's checks. But usually on such things, they're all either pretty close to each other or identical.

So if the TMB place is any example, NO, traveler's checks are NOT an economical alternative to using regular ATMs.

[Pib]

Just an update on my post #239 regarding the success I had in using my PenFed Visa "credit card" to do a Bt50K counter withdrawal at a Bangkok Bank branch without any local bank fee.

Thanks for all those details, and the good detective work, Pib!!

Please do post on how things turn out when all the dust settles.

I was particularly intrigued by a couple things:

--The PenFed rep saying your transaction looked like a purchase. I'll be very interested to see, in the end, if it's coded as a purchase or a cash advance by their system. (Purchases obviously having the free 30-day repayment window, and cash advances not).

--Settling just what exchange rate BKKB used for your transaction. It sounds like you're saying it looks like you got the VISA network rate, which would be great. But I wasn't sure, from various past posts on this subject, whether counter withdrawals typically get exchanged at the card network rate vs. the bank's buying TT rates.

--About the method the BKKB teller used, it sounds like she did a PIN-based withdrawal using their machine, just like you'd do at an ATM. Normally, those should show up almost immediately. But in PenFed's case, overall, I've noticed that they tend to be SLOW in posting transactions to my accounts, even during weekdays.

I just wish in the example you described, the teller had one of those little card reader machines at her window so that you could privately enter your PIN yourself, vs. having to tell her the PIN for her to use by herself out of your sight. I think I would feel not so comfortable about that approach.

TallGuy,

OK, the cash advance and payment transactions are now appearing on my PenFed account and it's all good news.

I accomplished the cash advance 15Feb/Sat/2:26pm Thailand time, which would have been 15Feb/Sat/2:26am Eastern Time where PenFed is located and also the time zone Visa uses for its daily exchange rate changes...specifically Visa updates it rates at midnight Eastern Time for the next 24hrs...midnight ET is 12 hours ahead/high noon Thailand time. In my earlier posts I estimated a charge hitting my account of $1548.80 for the Bt50,000 cash advance based on the 15 Feb Visa exchange rate in effect at the time. When using the Visa exchange rate I rounded up to the nearest penny but PenFed rounded down in this case to apply a charge of $1548.79 to my account. Since the credit card has no foreign transaction or cash advance fee and since Bangkok Bank did not apply a fee there were zero upfront fees or exchange rate fees.

OK, you remember in my earlier posts that about an hour before I went to do the cash advance I first confirmed I could prepay/put a credit balance on my card account which reflected a zero balance. I did a $1 transfer/payment to my card account which successfully processed, but my card balance didn't change to a minus $1 indicating a credit balance immediately nor anytime on Sat or Sun...but that didn't bother me because I knew there was a lag in the system plus it was a weekend. I was just happy the transfer didn't reject and say I couldn't make a prepayment/overpayment which would put the balance into a credit balance. Knowing now I could prepay/preload the card off to the bank I go and successfully accomplish the counter cash advance. I then come home happy, log onto my PenFed account again and initiate an ACH transfer/pull from one of my other U.S. bank accounts of $1560 to my PenFed credit card account...figure I would transfer a little extra to cover a couple days of interest since I assumed the payment might not post for a few days/till Monday.

This Thailand Monday morning I see the cash advance transaction has posted but there is no coding or wording that indicates it was a cash advance...the description just identifies what organization did the transaction and when. I expect all the detailed coding that accompanies every transfer/debit/credit transaction is not available to be seen by the customer...pretty much up to the bank what they allow to appear on the customer's online account. It showed a transaction and posting date of 15 Feb, which indicates to me the cash advance did settle same day/as fast as a debit transaction.

Now, here's the really good news...both of above mentioned card prepayments/transfers of $1 and $1560 I did on around an hour before and after I did the cash advance on 15 Feb are reflected in the card payment system with a transaction and posting date of 14 Feb, the day before which was Friday. Remember both of these payments were actually made on 15 Feb U.S. and Thailand date/time. I'm going to assumed there is some U.S. consumer protection law that may say any credit card payments, such as electronic payments, accomplished on a weekend will be made "effective" the previous business day which was Friday in this case. Anyway, it makes it look like the prepayments arrived a day before the cash advance. Right now my card balance is showing a -$12.21 (a credit balance)....$1561 prepayment minus $1548.79 cash advance equals a $12.21 credit balance. Tomorrow when I do a Tesco Lotus grocery run I'll take care of that $12.21 credit.

As mentioned, no other charges/fees appear...it sure appears I escaped with absolutely no fees...none from Bangkok Bank and no PenFed fees either, not even a few days interest since my payments effectively were on the books before the charge hit. Outstanding.

I'm still scratching my head somewhat as to the posting date of the prepayments but I expect it has something to do with U.S. consumer protection laws, weekend/non business day payment, etc. In fact, it appears to go against the following notice I got on the confirmation page of the prepayments which made me think earlier I would no doubt get hit with a few days interest since the payments might not be effective until Monday.

Credit Card Payment: Please note that the minimum payment amount is required by the due date to avoid late charges. The payment will be effective as of the scheduled transfer date. Credit card payments made after 6:00 PM Eastern Time and payments made on a Sunday or a holiday will be effective on the following business day.

If anything significant change pops up like when the monthly billing cycle ends and my monthly statement is issued several weeks from now I'll let you know....but I don't really think there will be any surprises, changes, or a few days interest appearing. I think I was basically able to do a cash advance with absolutely no fees or interest. I won't be doing another cash advance for at least a month since I've got enough cash built-up in my Bangkok Bank accounts to keep me stocked up with Chang beer for a while. Over to you to run a cash advance test with your PenFed credit card and see how that works out.

Cheers,

Pib

[Pib]

Now it is obvious that the AEON option is gone now too. I believe I will now go back to using cash and travellers checks as I used to in the 80s and 90s. What a pathetic hassle.

It's been donkeys years since I ever handled traveler's checks. And they're probably more suited to tourists vs. expats.

But, the other night, I was passing by a TMB exchange booth near my supermarket that had a big sign up about "no fee" exchanges, whatever that means. And not a great exchange rate to boot.

When I looked closer, though, they had a paper sign pasted in the window talking about their fees for handling traveler's checks. And although I just looked quickly, I thought the sign said 150 BAHT PER CHECK and then the smaller per check fees about stamps and whatever.

Are per TC fees really 150 baht per check in Thailand these days???

Well, I guess my memory and eyesight are pretty good.

Today, I passed by the same TMB exchange booth, and yes indeed, they do have a sign posted saying their fee for handling traveler's checks is 150 baht per check, along with a 3 baht stamp fee, for a total of 153 baht per check.

Thus if you had a $50 or $100 U.S. $ traveler's check, they'd be charging you $5+ to exchange/get 1500 or 3000 baht, respectively. By comparison, using a regular ATM and paying the 150 baht fee to get 10K or 20K is a much better deal -- although, I don't advocate paying the 150 baht fee regardless.

Now, I don't know if all the different Thai banks have the same fees for handling traveler's checks. But usually on such things, they're all either pretty close to each other or identical.

So if the TMB place is any example, NO, traveler's checks are NOT an economical alternative to using regular ATMs.

Wow...what a ripoff! Bangkok Bank and every Thai bank I knew of until I saw your post charges 30 baht plus 3 baht stamp duty per check.

Here's a cut and paste from the Bangkok Bank website regarding what they charge to buy traveler checks. The same fee amount applies regardless of the check denomination (i.e., $100, $500, etc)

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I won't be doing another cash advance for at least a month since I've got enough cash built-up in my Bangkok Bank accounts to keep me stocked up with Chang beer for a while. Over to you to run a cash advance test with your PenFed credit card and see how that works out.

Thanks Pib! So, at least with BKK Bank, it does sound like you're getting the VISA network rate on your credit card cash advances, which is great overall.

For me, right now, I'm going to be testing out a couple of my other debit cards that I've never done any ATM reimbursements with before, to see whether their reimbursement policies apply only in the U.S. or worldwide. I already have 3 worldwide ATM fee reimbursing debit cards, and that list might get longer depending on what happens with these added two.

Of course, I know you also have some worldwide ATM fee reimbursing debit cards. But right now, you seem to be focused on the fee-free credit card approach, which obviously is the new thing we're exploring right now. But when the dust settles, are you leaning toward making the credit card approach your standard pull, or still keeping a place and use for your debit cards?

I've never had the habit of doing very large ATM pulls, so it's kind of off-putting to me to perhaps have to do 25,000 or 30,000 baht per pull, just to open the door to a credit card cash advance. But, on the other hand, out of a perspective of being economy minded with my ATM fee reimbursements, I suppose I'd end up doing those in at least the 20-25K range to max out the per withdrawal funds from the machines.

I do like do avoid the hassles of dealing with Thai bank branches and Thai bank staff, wherever possible, as well as not schlepping my passport around outside. So if I can still get my 20K or 25K or even 30K once a month via a simple and convenient ATM pull and have the 150 baht fee reimbursed, my initial sense is to lean in that direction. Especially if I'd only be having an ATM fee reimbursed in any particular account maybe once every 3 months. That seems pretty low-key to me.

[Pib]

I won't be doing another cash advance for at least a month since I've got enough cash built-up in my Bangkok Bank accounts to keep me stocked up with Chang beer for a while. Over to you to run a cash advance test with your PenFed credit card and see how that works out.

Thanks Pib! So, at least with BKK Bank, it does sound like you're getting the VISA network rate on your credit card cash advances, which is great overall.

For me, right now, I'm going to be testing out a couple of my other debit cards that I've never done any ATM reimbursements with before, to see whether their reimbursement policies apply only in the U.S. or worldwide. I already have 3 worldwide ATM fee reimbursing debit cards, and that list might get longer depending on what happens with these added two.

Of course, I know you also have some worldwide ATM fee reimbursing debit cards. But right now, you seem to be focused on the fee-free credit card approach, which obviously is the new thing we're exploring right now. But when the dust settles, are you leaning toward making the credit card approach your standard pull, or still keeping a place and use for your debit cards?

I've never had the habit of doing very large ATM pulls, so it's kind of off-putting to me to perhaps have to do 25,000 or 30,000 baht per pull, just to open the door to a credit card cash advance. But, on the other hand, out of a perspective of being economy minded with my ATM fee reimbursements, I suppose I'd end up doing those in at least the 20-25K range to max out the per withdrawal funds from the machines.

I do like do avoid the hassles of dealing with Thai bank branches and Thai bank staff, wherever possible. So if I can still get my 20K or 25K or even 30K once a month via a simple and convenient ATM pull and have the 150 baht fee reimbursed, my initial sense is to lean in that direction. Especially if I'd only be having an ATM fee reimbursed in any particular account maybe once every 3 months. That seems pretty low-key to me.

I'm leaning towards just doing occasional large credit card cash advances which will have prepayment/preloaded amounts setting in my credit card account to immediately pay them off. I'll be sure to compare the Visa exchange rate to the Thai bank TT Buying Rate used for wire transfers before doing it which allows a person to pick a good day to do the transaction. As I've mentioned before in other posts and as you know also from personal experience sometimes the Visa rate is a little better by a few stang than the TT Buying Rate and even when lower still very close to the TT Buying Rate...a lot depends on how volatile the Forex market is. When a person does a little bit of "day picking" to do the credit card cash advance or debit card transaction transaction they can end up getting the money at a slightly better exchange rate than the TT Buying Rate, absolutely fee-free (assuming they have no-fee cards), and "immediately" in their hands vs waiting a day or three (or more) for the funds to show up via wire transfer, paying wire transfer and currency receipt fees, and what will the exchange rate be when the funds do arrive? Maybe higher...maybe lower.

And since I'm doing the no fee cash advance right at the counter, I can also immediately deposit the funds....no need to go find a branch to deposit the funds via a teller or Cash Deposit Machine. This cash advance using the credit card met with no resistance like I got with the debit card. My time waiting for my queue ticket to be called was about 5 minutes and then about another 5 minutes to complete the cash advance with the teller. Hopefully Thai banks won't try to cutoff this method of farangs obtaining cash without forking out a large fee to the Thai bank....durn, bankers piss me off more each day...they are getting way to fee-hungry.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I'm presuming the no-fee credit card cash advance approach won't -- at least initially -- get to be any kind of big event for the Thai banks.

I say that out of the sense that, the portion of farangs in Thailand who possess no cash advance fee credit cards -- like those issued by Penfed -- is a pretty small one. And, even for some few who might have them, a lot of folks never pay attention to just how they're spending their money, or in matters like this, losing it.

What's the broader lay of U.S. credit card cash advance fees these days? I pulled up and looked at some of the rates quoted by various of the big card issuers. Keep in mind, many offer many different cards, and not all have the same terms (fees and interest rates). So this list is just mean to be illustrative when it comes to credit card cash advances:

Barclays -- $10 or 4%, whichever is greater. Cash advance APR of 22%, about 9% points higher than the purchase APR.

BofA AMEX - $10 or 5%, whichever is greater. Cash advance APR of 25%.

BofA MasterCard - $10 or 5%, whichever is greater.

Cap One - $10 or 3%, whichever is greater.

Chase - $10 or 5%, whichever is greater. Cash advance of 19%, about 5% points higher than the purchase APR.

Citi - $10 or 5%, whichever is greater. Cash advance APR of 25%, about 12.5% points higher than the purchase APR.

And keep in mind, most of those credit cards, excepting some of Cap One's cards and one BofA card, also have 3% or so foreign currency fees. So if you combine a 5% cash advance charge plus a 3% foreign currency fee on your credit card pull from either an ATM or bank counter, you can begin to see your money slipping away.

[55Jay]

Just an update on my post #239 regarding the success I had in using my PenFed Visa "credit card" to do a Bt50K counter withdrawal at a Bangkok Bank branch without any local bank fee.

Thanks for all those details, and the good detective work, Pib!!

Please do post on how things turn out when all the dust settles.

I was particularly intrigued by a couple things:

--The PenFed rep saying your transaction looked like a purchase. I'll be very interested to see, in the end, if it's coded as a purchase or a cash advance by their system. (Purchases obviously having the free 30-day repayment window, and cash advances not).

--Settling just what exchange rate BKKB used for your transaction. It sounds like you're saying it looks like you got the VISA network rate, which would be great. But I wasn't sure, from various past posts on this subject, whether counter withdrawals typically get exchanged at the card network rate vs. the bank's buying TT rates.

--About the method the BKKB teller used, it sounds like she did a PIN-based withdrawal using their machine, just like you'd do at an ATM. Normally, those should show up almost immediately. But in PenFed's case, overall, I've noticed that they tend to be SLOW in posting transactions to my accounts, even during weekdays.

I just wish in the example you described, the teller had one of those little card reader machines at her window so that you could privately enter your PIN yourself, vs. having to tell her the PIN for her to use by herself out of your sight. I think I would feel not so comfortable about that approach.

TallGuy,

OK, the cash advance and payment transactions are now appearing on my PenFed account and it's all good news.

I accomplished the cash advance 15Feb/Sat/2:26pm Thailand time, which would have been 15Feb/Sat/2:26am Eastern Time where PenFed is located and also the time zone Visa uses for its daily exchange rate changes...specifically Visa updates it rates at midnight Eastern Time for the next 24hrs...midnight ET is 12 hours ahead/high noon Thailand time. In my earlier posts I estimated a charge hitting my account of $1548.80 for the Bt50,000 cash advance based on the 15 Feb Visa exchange rate in effect at the time. When using the Visa exchange rate I rounded up to the nearest penny but PenFed rounded down in this case to apply a charge of $1548.79 to my account. Since the credit card has no foreign transaction or cash advance fee and since Bangkok Bank did not apply a fee there were zero upfront fees or exchange rate fees.

OK, you remember in my earlier posts that about an hour before I went to do the cash advance I first confirmed I could prepay/put a credit balance on my card account which reflected a zero balance. I did a $1 transfer/payment to my card account which successfully processed, but my card balance didn't change to a minus $1 indicating a credit balance immediately nor anytime on Sat or Sun...but that didn't bother me because I knew there was a lag in the system plus it was a weekend. I was just happy the transfer didn't reject and say I couldn't make a prepayment/overpayment which would put the balance into a credit balance. Knowing now I could prepay/preload the card off to the bank I go and successfully accomplish the counter cash advance. I then come home happy, log onto my PenFed account again and initiate an ACH transfer/pull from one of my other U.S. bank accounts of $1560 to my PenFed credit card account...figure I would transfer a little extra to cover a couple days of interest since I assumed the payment might not post for a few days/till Monday.

This Thailand Monday morning I see the cash advance transaction has posted but there is no coding or wording that indicates it was a cash advance...the description just identifies what organization did the transaction and when. I expect all the detailed coding that accompanies every transfer/debit/credit transaction is not available to be seen by the customer...pretty much up to the bank what they allow to appear on the customer's online account. It showed a transaction and posting date of 15 Feb, which indicates to me the cash advance did settle same day/as fast as a debit transaction.

Now, here's the really good news...both of above mentioned card prepayments/transfers of $1 and $1560 I did on around an hour before and after I did the cash advance on 15 Feb are reflected in the card payment system with a transaction and posting date of 14 Feb, the day before which was Friday. Remember both of these payments were actually made on 15 Feb U.S. and Thailand date/time. I'm going to assumed there is some U.S. consumer protection law that may say any credit card payments, such as electronic payments, accomplished on a weekend will be made "effective" the previous business day which was Friday in this case. Anyway, it makes it look like the prepayments arrived a day before the cash advance. Right now my card balance is showing a -$12.21 (a credit balance)....$1561 prepayment minus $1548.79 cash advance equals a $12.21 credit balance. Tomorrow when I do a Tesco Lotus grocery run I'll take care of that $12.21 credit.

As mentioned, no other charges/fees appear...it sure appears I escaped with absolutely no fees...none from Bangkok Bank and no PenFed fees either, not even a few days interest since my payments effectively were on the books before the charge hit. Outstanding.

I'm still scratching my head somewhat as to the posting date of the prepayments but I expect it has something to do with U.S. consumer protection laws, weekend/non business day payment, etc. In fact, it appears to go against the following notice I got on the confirmation page of the prepayments which made me think earlier I would no doubt get hit with a few days interest since the payments might not be effective until Monday.

Credit Card Payment: Please note that the minimum payment amount is required by the due date to avoid late charges. The payment will be effective as of the scheduled transfer date. Credit card payments made after 6:00 PM Eastern Time and payments made on a Sunday or a holiday will be effective on the following business day.

If anything significant change pops up like when the monthly billing cycle ends and my monthly statement is issued several weeks from now I'll let you know....but I don't really think there will be any surprises, changes, or a few days interest appearing. I think I was basically able to do a cash advance with absolutely no fees or interest. I won't be doing another cash advance for at least a month since I've got enough cash built-up in my Bangkok Bank accounts to keep me stocked up with Chang beer for a while. Over to you to run a cash advance test with your PenFed credit card and see how that works out.

Cheers,

Pib

Thanks for the test run. Be heading to the US in a couple months and among a few financial chores, will see about a PENFED Acct. Would be nice to do a one-time 60k pull at BKB, then deposit into my BKB savings acct, all in one shot.

[Pib]

...or into "my" BKB savings acct. I'll send you my account number...and I will accept smaller amounts that Bt60K....I'm not a greedy person.

[JimGant]

However, from initial postings - it seems like my bank (USAA Savings Bank) is going to reimburse the fees same at they do with domestic ATM charges They reimburse monthly - so it remains to be seen when the postings and statement come out... but for now - seems good for me.

Well, Pib can back me up on this, as we both had the same experience. USAA would NOT reimburse us for our international ATM transactions -- until we pinged them, and sent them a copy of our ATM receipts. Then, yes, we were reimbursed (maybe they've improved since then....).

But, that really doesn't matter, because you'll be better off ACHing dollars thru Bangkok Bank NY to your Bangkok Bank account in Thailand. And then using your Be1st Debit/Atm card to get your cash. Why? Because USAA charges 1% for foreign ATM transactions (as do most US banks, many adding 2%, plus a fixed fee). So, yeah, 1% isn't too bad, in comparison with other banks. Except for the exceptional ones, like Schwab, that don't charge this 1% -- plus, they reimburse the 150 baht fee (unless you over use this feature, and don't use the attached brokerage account you signed up for, so Schwab can recoup their loss leader ATm reimbursements -- then they'll cancel you).

But only Schwab, and the few other similar cards, are superior for getting your bucks to Thailand. Don't take my word for it. Do a spreadsheet. Keep the exchange rate the same for an ACH and an ATM withdrawal. For example, using 32.30, if you ACH $10,000, the equivalent in ATM pulls with your USAA card, with each pull's 150 baht being reimbursed (USAA only reimburses up to $15 per cycle, however), will cost you about 2,400 baht.

But, of course, the 32.30 rate you got with your ACH transfer won't match the rates you subsequently receive with each ATM pull. But, I doubt you're in the position to play the FX crapshoot. And just looking at the last few weeks, a $10k ACH a few weeks back would now be looking very nice, when comparing the rate you received with the now decreasing rate received with every ATM pull. Yeah, a short term look -- but over the last decade, as the baht went from 40 to 30, those ACH chunks of money to feed off of for several months added some serendipity profit over the same amount in multiple ATM (or over the counter) transactions.

Bottom line (pointed out ad nauseam in previous threads) is that only completely fee free transactions, like with Schwab, will be superior to an ACH transfer (again, if you disregard FX serendipity). So too fee free over the counter transactions, if such are shown to exist. Otherwise, an ACH transfer thru BB NY, is the way to go -- particularly if your bank, like USAA, charges no fees for ACH transfers.

[SurfRider]

.
"Schwab ... they reimburse the 150 baht fee (unless you over use this feature, and don't use the attached brokerage account you signed up for"

Schwab doesn't require you to open a Brokerage account - they simply give it to you when you open a No-Fee Checking Account, but they don't even require that you place funds in the account. There are no strings attached with Schwab and they don't penalize you if you don't use the Brokerage account.
.

[Genericnic]

.

"Schwab ... they reimburse the 150 baht fee (unless you over use this feature, and don't use the attached brokerage account you signed up for"

Schwab doesn't require you to open a Brokerage account - they simply give it to you when you open a No-Fee Checking Account, but they don't even require that you place funds in the account. There are no strings attached with Schwab and they don't penalize you if you don't use the Brokerage account.

.

Correct SurfRider. I've had my Schwab account for years and never put a dime in the Brokerage account. Always reimbursed for ATM fees.

David

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

SR, you're right about that, in that the opening of the brokerage account with Schwab is just automatic, and I had a brokerage account with them that I never used for a couple years, and never had any problems.

However, the trickier issue we're discussing here in part is: if someone is just milking their Schwab checking account for ATM fee refunds and meanwhile isn't using their fee-generating brokerage account, how's Schwab ultimately going to react to that?

I don't know, but I'd bet that an active brokerage account, or at least one with a good balance, is going to be helpful for the long-term survivability of a checking account with frequent ATM refunds.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

.

"Schwab ... they reimburse the 150 baht fee (unless you over use this feature, and don't use the attached brokerage account you signed up for"

Schwab doesn't require you to open a Brokerage account - they simply give it to you when you open a No-Fee Checking Account, but they don't even require that you place funds in the account. There are no strings attached with Schwab and they don't penalize you if you don't use the Brokerage account.

.

Correct SurfRider. I've had my Schwab account for years and never put a dime in the Brokerage account. Always reimbursed for ATM fees.

David

That's a good sign for Schwab account holders... Thanks for sharing that info.

I've had Schwab accounts for years too, but have almost never had any ATM fee incurred or reimbursed by them.

However, now with the recent loss of AEON as a no-fee ATM option, I may finally start to use the fee reimbursement feature from time to time. Modestly, and with care.