Redshirt threats get political tension boiling

[celso]

Regardless of whether they are right or wrong, it is very poor taste for leaders to be making these kind of comments on the same days as children are getting killed.

[Gweiloman]

You are entitled to your opinion of course, as I am to mine. I would like to post an extract from what I consider a very well written letter by an obviously well educated Thai citizen, Chan Nilgianskul:

"There is more to the Amnesty Bill than meets the eye. For you to say that it is obvious that “this law was passed solely to pave way for Thaksin’s return as a free man with all his wealth restored” shows nothing but shallowness. You have allowed your deeply enshrined political partisanship to blur your analysis. You claim to speak as a “US-trained lawyer,” while it is your prejudice that is doing the actual talking. Mr. Obama deserves better.

For all his weaknesses, Thaksin is not so strategically inept as to think that he could unilaterally push through the Amnesty Bill. Make no mistake; there was undoubtedly some sort of “deal” or at least an understanding in place between the Thaksin camp and key establishment figures before the bill was passed by the Lower House.

“To state the obvious”:

1) There were many enemies of Thaksin who would have benefited from and may have quietly welcomed the Amnesty Bill, but also wanted to appear to the public that they were ready to accept responsibility for their crimes. For example, the 2006 coup leaders (who under the annulled 1997 Constitution in force at the time would have been tried for treason) and several members of the Abhisit administration (who were facing murder charges for the excessively violent 2010 protest crackdowns), to name but a few.

2) Since the bill would still have to pass through the half-appointed and predominantly “anti-Thaksin” Senate before being presented for Royal Assent, it is unlikely that there had been no acknowledgement behind the scenes from those outside the Thaksin camp.

It is also interesting, although not necessarily relevant, to note that prisoners of conscience serving sentences for lese-majeste were for some unknown reasons not included in the amnesty plans, despite many of them being die-hard supporters of Thaksin Shinawatra.

The more logical explanation is that the conservatives, seeing massive popular reaction against the Amnesty Bill, saw the situation as an opportunity to abandon the reconciliation efforts and instead attempt to bring down Thaksin yet again by employing street politics.

"

Nevertheless, we can agree to disagree. But do you not agree that Thailand is standing very precariously on the edge of a very deep abyss? And all it takes a just one more little shove to reach the point of no return. If that were to happen, wouldn't you think that maybe, just maybe, the price for the amnesty bill would have been or might have been a price worth paying?

"Very well written" maybe. But I don't agree with it. On the anti-Thaksin side, the amnesty would have benefited Abhisit and Suthep, but they've been adamant that they wouldn't accept amnesty under any conditions. I suppose that there may have been a push from the hard core yellow shirts behind the scenes to accept amnesty, but that would indicate that Abhisit and Suthep aren't controlled by the "Amaat" as everyone suggests.

I don't see how giving everyone amnesty can just make everything go away. The issues are still there. Nothing will really change, especially if amnesty means that Thaksin can just go back and continue what he was doing before. Protests will continue against Thaksin. The red shirts will still want to go after Abhisit. Welcome to Groundhog Day.

The only way I can see things moving forward is if Yingluck and Thaksin (and the rest of the family) get out of politics.

That does NOT mean that Suthep or his peoples council should take over. That would be worse than now, and worse than 2010.

But while Thaksin continues to be involved, there will continue to be protests. Amnesty won't stop that.

I have no issue with you not agreeing with the article. We are both entitled to our opinions of course.

Publicly, Abhisit and Suthep may have been against the amnesty under any conditions, privately, neither you nor I are privy to their thoughts and desires. So I guess we will have to let that point slide.

Things can move forward if YL and TS get out of politics. Personally, I don't think they will. TS is a proud man and that will be the day that he lets someone like Suthep force him out. If he (TS) get's out of politics, it will be at a time of his own choosing.

Another way for things to move forward is for Suthep to stop the protests. By doing so, he can, inter alia,

- ensure safety for his supporters

- take away the moral high ground for UDD supporters to march to Bkk, thereby reducing the risk of a bloodbath

- let Bkk business and tourist arrivals return to normal

- let the courts do what they may with PT. In the event of a judicial coup and possible violence, he will have a clean conscience that he's not an instigator in the inevitable deaths

Suthep's current actions have no more bite. He is not able to galvanise any more support that he already has. Instead, he is endangering the lives of many innocents. If he is truly a great man and a great leader, he will see that he needs to sacrifice his own desires for the greater good of society. Since no anti-TS poster sees TS as great or good, don't expect the same from him.

[hellodolly]

Each and every day they get dumber and dumber. Now they are saying.

Redshirts warn of 'government-in-exile' in the north or Isaan, going into 'combat mode'

They then go on to say

The government must not be defeated. This is an order from the people,'' Natthawut said

If it is an order from the people why not set up their government in exile in the South why not set it up in Yala they are the people also. Or Pattaya. Lots of places if they are the people of the government they can set it up in. No need to be isolated.

Between you and me and the gate post they sound more like a rebel army.

Do they all use the same speech writers that the Shinawatra's use?

[ggold]

Who cares about threats? It's the ATTACKS that are the problem.

BTW Jatuporn and Nattiwhut should declare their conflict of interest. Both face lengthy jail sentences should this government be defeated and its delaying tactics and amnesties be nullified.

Abhisit and Suthep also face prison sentences if they are convicted of the murder charges.

Looks like both sides are trying to be in control of the judges.

Maybe the amnesty bill for both sides wasn't such a bad thing after all.

Better than pushing Thailand toward a civil war, for sure.

Where have you been for the last 6 months? It is because of the amnesty bill that Thailand is being pushed toward a civil war.

It appears you didn't understand my post.

Suthep and his followers rejected the amnesty bill and instead chose an undemocratic way to oust the government, blocking the city, ruining the economy, financially targeting companies that have nothing to do with Thaksin (AIS, Air Asia, Nestle, Maggi, Oishi, etc), creating more social division and effectively clearing the path to a civil war.

The amnesty bill would have wiped clean the actions of Thaksin, Suthep, Abhisit and others, which would have been a step back from the abyss, rather than a step ahead.

It's just my opinion. I know some people here have a hard time accepting that other people may have different opinions, so you are forgiven.

Indeed Thaksin hoped he could accuse Abhisit and Suthep of murder in the hope they would be scared enough to agree to the amnesty bill, the only problem was that Abhisit and Suthep didn't scare, or run away. So Thaksins plan could not work. He even succeeded in turning some of the red shirts against the amnesty bill, because they believed Thaksins lies, That Abhisit and Suthep were guilty of murder.

Politically motivated by Thaksin and will be proven to be false charges.

[Gweiloman]

It is really impossible at this point to avoid the acknowledgment that these are the elements of a civil war. There are a number of things that are profoundly alarming about what Nuttawut, Jataporn, and Thida said, notwithstanding the fact that not one word was devoted to Trat. The refrain against the PDRC is of course to be expected. But the refrain includes repeated calls against the independent agencies and the courts. In other words - the rule of law itself. That is the threat of Thaksin and his UDD - it is a threat to the rule of law. Thaksin has long wanted the independent agencies to be disbanded, and he wants control over the courts. Such authoritarian impulses are a danger to the country in both the short and long-term. The UDD is therefore every bit as a dangerous to society as they claim the PDRC to be. But here's the difference - the PDRC has never, ever called for the dismantling of independent agencies or the neutering of the courts. Not once. Those are the rallying cries of the UDD. And in case one is in the fanciful mood of imagining that there is any distance between the Yingluck administration and Thaksin's UDD in any shape or form - they have followed exactly the same course. Yingluck pushed all the UDD buttons in her recent address, accusing the NACC essentially of conspiracy.The Pheu Thai administration has devoted itself to attacking the independent institutions and the courts during their tenure. The only difference is that now these attacks are a daily occurrence. For a sitting administration to be questioning and defying the independent agencies, the courts, and the rule of law - is jaw-dropping. And treasonous. There is no space between Thaksin, Surapong, Chalerm, Jataporn, Nuttawut, and Thida. None whatsoever. They are all a unit and a profound threat to the judicial checks and balances. After all, the only, only reason Thaksin is not here is because of these very institutions and the courts. They have been the only thing that has kept Thaksin away. And their function under the constitution must be protected and honoured.

I would agree with you, IF only the courts have shown themselves to be fully independent and not biased. None of us here can truly say. We can only make educated guesses and judgements based on the reported actions of these courts. Sad to say, the rulings passed down has often been seen as politically motivated and not objective.

For these reasons, it is not difficult to understand why the PDRC has never called for the dismantling and neutering of the courts as the majority of the rulings seem to favour anti-PT factions without being beyond reasonable doubt.

[dominique355]

"Red shirts call for civil disobedience against independent organizations..."

The days of surreptitiously working through their user-friendly creations by the Elites are over......Trying to find cover for coup-intentionism beneath these user-friendly entities pretending not to be political is well known. Pretending to be lofty law and order bodies only fools the International community.

Internally, their true intentions are well known.

Basically, if the unelectable Elites think they can dispose of an elected Govt. unelectorally, that is not gonna happen. The electorate has been far too politicized for that to happen without huge national reactions.

Your language reminds me the language used by the Chinese Communist Propaganda during the Vietnam war. Sounds very indoctrinated, repeating again and again degrading adjectives to cement prejudices.

The Soviets had a similar vocabulary in the 70ties and 80ies.

But it's entertaining.

[Local Drunk]

UPDATE:

Red shirts call for civil disobedience against independent organizations

BANGKOK: -- Red-shirt leaders yesterday issued an 11-point demand to the caretaker Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, one of which is the call for her government to adopt civil disobedience against all independent organization which they said were treating her unfairly.

At the rally stage of the red-shirt rally in Nakhon Rathasima under the theme “Beating the War Drum”, the ruling Pheu Thai party leader Charupong Ruangsuwan , the caretaker interior minister, and Nattawut Saikua, the caretaker deputy commerce minister, were seen addressing a few thousand of supporters, and announcing a 11-point demand for the caretaker government to implement.

They included no resignation in any case of caretaker prime minister, speedy payment to rice farmers, refusal to acknowledge the corruption charges to be brought against the caretaker prime minister by the National Anti Corruption Commission on the rice deal, civil disobedience of the caretaker government against all unfair independent organization, and permission for the police to arm and suppress armed fighters who are among anti-government protesters.

Pheu Thai party leader Charupong also declared before the crowds that the party and the caretaker government would never step back as long as the people still give them support.

He also insisted that if the situation develops to critical level, all supporters should be ready for protest movement.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/red-shirts-call-civil-disobedience-independent-organizations/

-- Thai PBS 2014-02-24

Right... civil disobedience against the anti government protesters who are exercising their right to civil disobedience. Some streets of BKK will be red... That's not very civil is it? Fairness? Fair to who? TS I imagine.

[crazydrummerpauly]

WHY do we now have read the details of the Mobile Device that messages are sent on ? Idiotic, boring, unnecessary. As for posts saying there will be a COUP - didn't you read that the military are taking a back-seat ?

[hellodolly]

You are entitled to your opinion of course, as I am to mine. I would like to post an extract from what I consider a very well written letter by an obviously well educated Thai citizen, Chan Nilgianskul:

"There is more to the Amnesty Bill than meets the eye. For you to say that it is obvious that “this law was passed solely to pave way for Thaksin’s return as a free man with all his wealth restored” shows nothing but shallowness. You have allowed your deeply enshrined political partisanship to blur your analysis. You claim to speak as a “US-trained lawyer,” while it is your prejudice that is doing the actual talking. Mr. Obama deserves better.

For all his weaknesses, Thaksin is not so strategically inept as to think that he could unilaterally push through the Amnesty Bill. Make no mistake; there was undoubtedly some sort of “deal” or at least an understanding in place between the Thaksin camp and key establishment figures before the bill was passed by the Lower House.

“To state the obvious”:

1) There were many enemies of Thaksin who would have benefited from and may have quietly welcomed the Amnesty Bill, but also wanted to appear to the public that they were ready to accept responsibility for their crimes. For example, the 2006 coup leaders (who under the annulled 1997 Constitution in force at the time would have been tried for treason) and several members of the Abhisit administration (who were facing murder charges for the excessively violent 2010 protest crackdowns), to name but a few.

2) Since the bill would still have to pass through the half-appointed and predominantly “anti-Thaksin” Senate before being presented for Royal Assent, it is unlikely that there had been no acknowledgement behind the scenes from those outside the Thaksin camp.

It is also interesting, although not necessarily relevant, to note that prisoners of conscience serving sentences for lese-majeste were for some unknown reasons not included in the amnesty plans, despite many of them being die-hard supporters of Thaksin Shinawatra.

The more logical explanation is that the conservatives, seeing massive popular reaction against the Amnesty Bill, saw the situation as an opportunity to abandon the reconciliation efforts and instead attempt to bring down Thaksin yet again by employing street politics.

"

Nevertheless, we can agree to disagree. But do you not agree that Thailand is standing very precariously on the edge of a very deep abyss? And all it takes a just one more little shove to reach the point of no return. If that were to happen, wouldn't you think that maybe, just maybe, the price for the amnesty bill would have been or might have been a price worth paying?

"Very well written" maybe. But I don't agree with it. On the anti-Thaksin side, the amnesty would have benefited Abhisit and Suthep, but they've been adamant that they wouldn't accept amnesty under any conditions. I suppose that there may have been a push from the hard core yellow shirts behind the scenes to accept amnesty, but that would indicate that Abhisit and Suthep aren't controlled by the "Amaat" as everyone suggests.

I don't see how giving everyone amnesty can just make everything go away. The issues are still there. Nothing will really change, especially if amnesty means that Thaksin can just go back and continue what he was doing before. Protests will continue against Thaksin. The red shirts will still want to go after Abhisit. Welcome to Groundhog Day.

The only way I can see things moving forward is if Yingluck and Thaksin (and the rest of the family) get out of politics.

That does NOT mean that Suthep or his peoples council should take over. That would be worse than now, and worse than 2010.

But while Thaksin continues to be involved, there will continue to be protests. Amnesty won't stop that.

I have no issue with you not agreeing with the article. We are both entitled to our opinions of course.

Publicly, Abhisit and Suthep may have been against the amnesty under any conditions, privately, neither you nor I are privy to their thoughts and desires. So I guess we will have to let that point slide.

Things can move forward if YL and TS get out of politics. Personally, I don't think they will. TS is a proud man and that will be the day that he lets someone like Suthep force him out. If he (TS) get's out of politics, it will be at a time of his own choosing.

Another way for things to move forward is for Suthep to stop the protests. By doing so, he can, inter alia,

- ensure safety for his supporters

- take away the moral high ground for UDD supporters to march to Bkk, thereby reducing the risk of a bloodbath

- let Bkk business and tourist arrivals return to normal

- let the courts do what they may with PT. In the event of a judicial coup and possible violence, he will have a clean conscience that he's not an instigator in the inevitable deaths

Suthep's current actions have no more bite. He is not able to galvanise any more support that he already has. Instead, he is endangering the lives of many innocents. If he is truly a great man and a great leader, he will see that he needs to sacrifice his own desires for the greater good of society. Since no anti-TS poster sees TS as great or good, don't expect the same from him.

I have one question about the Amnesty bill would it have even been proposed if Thaksin in no way was connected with it. I think not. It has a lot of good points and depth to it but it would never have come up if Thaksin was not included in the Amnesty.

As I recall relatives of some of the ones killed in the Temple on the last few days proposed one with out Thaksin, Abhist or Suthep in it and were told no.

"Suthep's current actions have no more bite."

Not entirely sure about that. For no bite they sure are getting a big reaction.

Now if you had said the number of protestors I would have to agree with you. But the reality is they are backed up by a very large portion of the population and the Government as well as the red shirts know that.

That is what they fear.

I believe if they were to have an election now the Democrats would be in power. Might be a minority one but they would be the one's in the P M office.

I how ever believe that with out reforms first it would just turn into the same thing as there would be even a deeper divide in the Nation.

In my opinion the election that the PTP want now will solve no problems. Nor would an all out open one.

I repeat the government must be reformed before we can have unity.

[Calimotty]

Government is backed into corner, all agency's are against the government , PM is in hiding and all over sudden red shirts become active .

Anyone else thinks darling brother is in full control now and is disparate ?

Even worse is red shirts celebrating the latest attacks and deaths.

Barbaric comes to mind

The shooting in Trat province on Friday night and the bombing at Ratchprasong rally site yesterday were related, he said, pointing out that rally areas and venues where PDRC protesters would move to were all risk zones with escalating violence.

“I can assure you that the government and pro-government groups were not involved in the violent incidents,” said Lt Gen Paradorn.

He said the Centre for Maintaining Peace and Order will today appeal the Civil Court ruling which restricted the authorities’ power in dealing with protesters, citing limitations in the ability of existing laws to handle the political unrest.

[fish fingers]

The red shirts know this is now a lost cause, the ship has sprung too many leaks

[rtco]

UDD, PDRC, Suthep, Thaksin, Monks, Police, Army ... old uncle Tom Cobley and all. What we all seem to be forgetting is there is a democratic process here in Thailand and the Government is trying to follow that process but there is opposition to it because Suthep and the cronies that are his money-backers won't allow that to happen because they know what the outcome will be. Thaksin pulling the strings ... maybe (there is no evidence of that) but the fact that the guy still musters so much support is surely an indication of that fact that he was doing something right (I am not a supporter of either camps btw). At the end of the day elections are held to see who can muster most support for a new Government ... PT has demonstrated they can. I think someone said in this thread the people of Thailand just want to get on with their daily lives ... I echo that so let the democratic wheels churn on and let's get back to some sort of equalibrium shall we please.

[Centrum]

And now a word from the rest of the Thai People, aka the MAJORITY. They have as much right to Occupy Bangkok for the Government they support and the right to resist any police force for they only want to exercise their right to peaceful protests. They have as much right as Suthep to shut down opposition businesses, block public wayfares, and threaten opposition leaders with physical means. They have to same right to protect their own protest leaders with armed security guards and collect contributions from the public in the street. When Yin meets Yang, the circle will be complete and then maybe more rationale and reasonable leadership will find common solutions.

You know, you have a point there.

What if those of the middle ground got up off their backsides and set up a protest site somewhere in Bangkok? That would send a message to both the pro and anti government sides.

Only problem is...it never happens. The 'non-political' majority wouldn't dream of getting out to show support for anything, ever!

They don't care who runs the country, or how they run it. They don't voice concerns when neighbors are dragged away in the middle of the night, never to be seen or heard of again.

They don't believe in politics. They don't understand politics. They don't want to know politics. They may vote, but that's enough for them. That's their civic duty for another 4 years out of the way.

The only way you could possibly stir them into action would be by taking TV away from them. But even then, spending an afternoon listening to political speeches would send them packing faster than

grenades and gunfire.

[casualbiker]

UDD, PDRC, Suthep, Thaksin, Monks, Police, Army ... old uncle Tom Cobley and all. What we all seem to be forgetting is there is a democratic process here in Thailand and the Government is trying to follow that process but there is opposition to it because Suthep and the cronies that are his money-backers won't allow that to happen because they know what the outcome will be. Thaksin pulling the strings ... maybe (there is no evidence of that) but the fact that the guy still musters so much support is surely an indication of that fact that he was doing something right (I am not a supporter of either camps btw). At the end of the day elections are held to see who can muster most support for a new Government ... PT has demonstrated they can. I think someone said in this thread the people of Thailand just want to get on with their daily lives ... I echo that so let the democratic wheels churn on and let's get back to some sort of equalibrium shall we please.

What dos thou mean "no evidence "

he Skype's into cabinet meetings for Christs sake .. the cabinet all go and meet him outside the country (and in according to some posters)

Democracy is NOT JUST elections .. Reform is needed.

And Suthep IS an idiot.

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Piichai]

Jatuporn..........some roads in Bangkok will turn RED.................we will ensure No clashes or Violence ??

YAH, come on down and meet the tanks with your pickup trucks and farmers and meet your destiny!!!!

While I agree that a pickup truck is no match for a tank (or F16 or Gripen), one should think there'll be considerably less farmers in the Red ranks this time around.

[Spartakos]

I am a optimist. I can see a evolution Thailand. Gone are the days of the ruling elites in bangkok.

They try very hard but cannot win because the people specially in the north dont want to be servants anymore.

First step was thaksin. Not really perfect but somehow necessary.

Next step is r e a l democracy without the old and new family/clans who hold the power. More common

people and grassroots movements.

Please people, dont be so frustated and negative about everything.

This situation is a big chance from power for a few people to power for the mayority. Specially for the

people in the north. Does anyone know if its possible to move the capital from Bangkok to a big city in the north under Thai law?

Have a good day

Tom

Funny that you have to clarify that it's the end of the ruling days for the elites of bangkok, and I guess it's a start of a ruling days for an elite ( 1 person) from the north?

Or do you not consider Dr.T an elite?

[Gweiloman]

I have no issue with you not agreeing with the article. We are both entitled to our opinions of course.

Publicly, Abhisit and Suthep may have been against the amnesty under any conditions, privately, neither you nor I are privy to their thoughts and desires. So I guess we will have to let that point slide.

Things can move forward if YL and TS get out of politics. Personally, I don't think they will. TS is a proud man and that will be the day that he lets someone like Suthep force him out. If he (TS) get's out of politics, it will be at a time of his own choosing.

Another way for things to move forward is for Suthep to stop the protests. By doing so, he can, inter alia,

- ensure safety for his supporters

- take away the moral high ground for UDD supporters to march to Bkk, thereby reducing the risk of a bloodbath

- let Bkk business and tourist arrivals return to normal

- let the courts do what they may with PT. In the event of a judicial coup and possible violence, he will have a clean conscience that he's not an instigator in the inevitable deaths

Suthep's current actions have no more bite. He is not able to galvanise any more support that he already has. Instead, he is endangering the lives of many innocents. If he is truly a great man and a great leader, he will see that he needs to sacrifice his own desires for the greater good of society. Since no anti-TS poster sees TS as great or good, don't expect the same from him.

I have one question about the Amnesty bill would it have even been proposed if Thaksin in no way was connected with it. I think not. It has a lot of good points and depth to it but it would never have come up if Thaksin was not included in the Amnesty.

As I recall relatives of some of the ones killed in the Temple on the last few days proposed one with out Thaksin, Abhist or Suthep in it and were told no.

"Suthep's current actions have no more bite."

Not entirely sure about that. For no bite they sure are getting a big reaction.

Now if you had said the number of protestors I would have to agree with you. But the reality is they are backed up by a very large portion of the population and the Government as well as the red shirts know that.

That is what they fear.

I believe if they were to have an election now the Democrats would be in power. Might be a minority one but they would be the one's in the P M office.

I how ever believe that with out reforms first it would just turn into the same thing as there would be even a deeper divide in the Nation.

In my opinion the election that the PTP want now will solve no problems. Nor would an all out open one.

I repeat the government must be reformed before we can have unity.

Thanks for your constructive contribution (I can't stand posters who merely resorts to name calling and insults).

Without a shadow of doubt, the Amnesty bill would never have existed if not for the purpose of pardoning Thaksin and allowing him to return. However, in order to have the support of the opposition, PT of course have to try and make it benefit them as well. In business, we call this negotiation and hoping to find a win win situation. Fact of the matter is that the bill was shot down, and used as political ammunition to support the protests in the first instance. The consequences of this opportunistic move by Suthep is now sadly, plain to see, with loss of life from all sectors.

"Suthep's current actions have no more bite"

I don't think that the ongoing protests are getting more support than they have already obtained. The points have been made - corruption, incompetence and so on and so forth. There is no more political capital to be gained by continuing with the protests. I don't understand what you mean by big reaction.

I agree with you that there has to be reforms. But this has to be done through parliament. Suthep's idea does not and was never going to work (imo)

[ShannonT]

UPDATE:

Red shirts call for civil disobedience against independent organizations

BANGKOK: -- Red-shirt leaders yesterday issued an 11-point demand to the caretaker Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, one of which is the call for her government to adopt civil disobedience against all independent organization which they said were treating her unfairly.

At the rally stage of the red-shirt rally in Nakhon Rathasima under the theme “Beating the War Drum”, the ruling Pheu Thai party leader Charupong Ruangsuwan , the caretaker interior minister, and Nattawut Saikua, the caretaker deputy commerce minister, were seen addressing a few thousand of supporters, and announcing a 11-point demand for the caretaker government to implement.

They included no resignation in any case of caretaker prime minister, speedy payment to rice farmers, refusal to acknowledge the corruption charges to be brought against the caretaker prime minister by the National Anti Corruption Commission on the rice deal, civil disobedience of the caretaker government against all unfair independent organization, and permission for the police to arm and suppress armed fighters who are among anti-government protesters.

Pheu Thai party leader Charupong also declared before the crowds that the party and the caretaker government would never step back as long as the people still give them support.

He also insisted that if the situation develops to critical level, all supporters should be ready for protest movement.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/red-shirts-call-civil-disobedience-independent-organizations/

-- Thai PBS 2014-02-24

Right... civil disobedience against the anti government protesters who are exercising their right to civil disobedience. Some streets of BKK will be red... That's not very civil is it? Fairness? Fair to who? TS I imagine.

So ...Suthep supporters have the right to civil disobedience, but red shirts don't?

And Suthep supporters have the right to block Bangkok streets for 4 months but when red shirts want to do it, it's not fair or civil?

Thanks for clearing that up.

[whybother]

So ...Suthep supporters have the right to civil disobedience, but red shirts don't?

And Suthep supporters have the right to block Bangkok streets for 4 months but when red shirts want to do it, it's not fair or civil?

Thanks for clearing that up.

The red shirts have every right to block government departments and block roads.

[Dogmatix]

Red shirts at the War Drums meeting cheer the news of the deaths and injuries caused by their armed militant wing at the Yingcharoen market. Sickening. The man extolling the killing and injuries is a police officer.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Dogmatix

[saltandpepper]

So ...Suthep supporters have the right to civil disobedience, but red shirts don't?

And Suthep supporters have the right to block Bangkok streets for 4 months but when red shirts want to do it, it's not fair or civil?

Thanks for clearing that up.

The red shirts have every right to block government departments and block roads.

And more!

[aussieinthailand]

This war drum meeting has shown Thaksins desperation to get the army to step I and take over, giving his thugs a real excuse to come out with their weapons and make it into a civil war.

They would not be fighting the army directly but picking out soft targets like we saw yesterday when markets were attacked alongside peaceful protesters.

There is no way the army could contain that, as is shown right now in the south.

A coup would give the Thaksin camp the opportunity to say a legitimate Government was overthrown by the military.

A civil war would, after sufficient death and destruction, likely bring the UN or US in and Thaksin would hope that he would return to reunite the country.

He has shown in the past that he does not care how many lives his actions cost as long as he has power.

Should he get his wish none of us would be safe for even if we live in peace with our communities, as I do, there will always be those who through jealousy, hate or

just seeing an opportunity to take from the supposed rich farang would be in for their chop.

I for one would not want to live in a country at war, would you ? so be careful what you wish for you posters who seem to manage to get the word coup in most of your posts.

Those who rant about Suthep take a moment to consider, has he of any of his group actually come out from their protest sites and killed anyone ?

The answer to that is no, for all the deaths and injuries have been caused when his group have been attacked, whether by attack or retaliation.

It is a sad indictment on the country and the police force in particular that any protesting group feels the need for guards to protect them and that they would want to arm themselves because they are being shot at and bombed.

There are those who continually say that Suthep wants a coup but I can think of no way that one could benefit him, it would be foolish to think that the army would put him in charge and he would become even more of a marked man and in greater danger as there would be no protesters around him..

Ummm Robby nz, Thailand has had a few of them (coup) I mean, the last one was when Mr. T the lawfully and democratically elected PM was "overthrown" via a military coup, and then whilst the people are still reeling from the death toll, Shoop shoop diddy wop walla walla bang bang, qui9ke while they're not looking they slipped young Mark into play,

Cheers CUZ

[Evolare]

what is weird is that nattawut and jatuporn is not rotting away in prison as is from the 2010 rallies. They have promoted killings and pillaging for so long. UDD - United front for Dedicated Dictators and dumbasses who believe them.

[wprime]

I have no issue with you not agreeing with the article. We are both entitled to our opinions of course.

Publicly, Abhisit and Suthep may have been against the amnesty under any conditions, privately, neither you nor I are privy to their thoughts and desires. So I guess we will have to let that point slide.

Things can move forward if YL and TS get out of politics. Personally, I don't think they will. TS is a proud man and that will be the day that he lets someone like Suthep force him out. If he (TS) get's out of politics, it will be at a time of his own choosing.

Another way for things to move forward is for Suthep to stop the protests. By doing so, he can, inter alia,

- ensure safety for his supporters

- take away the moral high ground for UDD supporters to march to Bkk, thereby reducing the risk of a bloodbath

- let Bkk business and tourist arrivals return to normal

- let the courts do what they may with PT. In the event of a judicial coup and possible violence, he will have a clean conscience that he's not an instigator in the inevitable deaths

Suthep's current actions have no more bite. He is not able to galvanise any more support that he already has. Instead, he is endangering the lives of many innocents. If he is truly a great man and a great leader, he will see that he needs to sacrifice his own desires for the greater good of society. Since no anti-TS poster sees TS as great or good, don't expect the same from him.

I have one question about the Amnesty bill would it have even been proposed if Thaksin in no way was connected with it. I think not. It has a lot of good points and depth to it but it would never have come up if Thaksin was not included in the Amnesty.

As I recall relatives of some of the ones killed in the Temple on the last few days proposed one with out Thaksin, Abhist or Suthep in it and were told no.

"Suthep's current actions have no more bite."

Not entirely sure about that. For no bite they sure are getting a big reaction.

Now if you had said the number of protestors I would have to agree with you. But the reality is they are backed up by a very large portion of the population and the Government as well as the red shirts know that.

That is what they fear.

I believe if they were to have an election now the Democrats would be in power. Might be a minority one but they would be the one's in the P M office.

I how ever believe that with out reforms first it would just turn into the same thing as there would be even a deeper divide in the Nation.

In my opinion the election that the PTP want now will solve no problems. Nor would an all out open one.

I repeat the government must be reformed before we can have unity.

Thanks for your constructive contribution (I can't stand posters who merely resorts to name calling and insults).

Without a shadow of doubt, the Amnesty bill would never have existed if not for the purpose of pardoning Thaksin and allowing him to return. However, in order to have the support of the opposition, PT of course have to try and make it benefit them as well. In business, we call this negotiation and hoping to find a win win situation. Fact of the matter is that the bill was shot down, and used as political ammunition to support the protests in the first instance. The consequences of this opportunistic move by Suthep is now sadly, plain to see, with loss of life from all sectors.

"Suthep's current actions have no more bite"

I don't think that the ongoing protests are getting more support than they have already obtained. The points have been made - corruption, incompetence and so on and so forth. There is no more political capital to be gained by continuing with the protests. I don't understand what you mean by big reaction.

I agree with you that there has to be reforms. But this has to be done through parliament. Suthep's idea does not and was never going to work (imo)

It can't be done through Parliament as it is the power of members of Parliament which reforms should be aimed at limiting. The system is in dire need of reforms but neither side genuinely wants to reform the system as it would make politics less profitable.

[Piichai]

Another way for things to move forward is for Suthep to stop the protests.

I don't see the peaceful protesters stopping before the 180-day limit on the Amnesty Bill has expired.

[GarryP]

It can't be done through Parliament as it is the power of members of Parliament which reforms should be aimed at limiting. The system is in dire need of reforms but neither side genuinely wants to reform the system as it would make politics less profitable.

I agree with you on that. The masses are being taken for a ride. While the leaders of both sides spout reform, reform, reform, it is the last thing they actually want, but they keep on doing it because their misguided followers believe them.

I just feel sorry for the people on the street who do really want to see change, want to see the country develop, want their lives to improve and their children to inherit a better place. Politicians are usually the last people on whom you would pin such hopes.

[kimamey]

Jatuporn..........some roads in Bangkok will turn RED.................we will ensure No clashes or Violence ??

Yes that does seem a bold statement to make from either side.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Piichai]

Red shirts at the War Drums meeting cheer the news of the deaths and injuries caused by their armed militant wing at the Yingcharoen market. Sickening. The man extolling the killing and injuries is a police officer.

It does indeed go far to show exactly what kind of people they are.

[AleG]

Thanks for your constructive contribution (I can't stand posters who merely resorts to name calling and insults).

Without a shadow of doubt, the Amnesty bill would never have existed if not for the purpose of pardoning Thaksin and allowing him to return. However, in order to have the support of the opposition, PT of course have to try and make it benefit them as well. In business, we call this negotiation and hoping to find a win win situation. Fact of the matter is that the bill was shot down, and used as political ammunition to support the protests in the first instance. The consequences of this opportunistic move by Suthep is now sadly, plain to see, with loss of life from all sectors.

"Suthep's current actions have no more bite"

I don't think that the ongoing protests are getting more support than they have already obtained. The points have been made - corruption, incompetence and so on and so forth. There is no more political capital to be gained by continuing with the protests. I don't understand what you mean by big reaction.

I agree with you that there has to be reforms. But this has to be done through parliament. Suthep's idea does not and was never going to work (imo)

The Democrats were going along with the Amnesty Bill (reluctantly) until PTP made sweeping changes to the bill in a committee meeting after the first reading, used their majority to approve the changes in spite of the opposition protestations and then proceeded to go through the second and third readings in record time and in the absence of the Democrats, voting for the bill, unanimously at around 4:30 AM.

Incidentally, the man who introduced the changes justified them by saying that he met Thaksin in Hong Kong (I think) and he told the MP he wanted to come home.

Claiming that the Democrats were secretly supporting those shenanigans and then back stabbed PTP have no basis in reality unless you can provide any credible evidence. Innuendo and speculation from biased sources hardly fits the bill.

[fleeing]

"The red shirts' hard core is Thaksin's last resort..."

This quote another attempt to denigrate Electoral Democracy forces by suggesting they are devoid of political intent and are uni-dimensional... It is a form of Elitist arrogance implying they have the market cornered on Political awareness. Their coup-mongering friends with their shadowy supporters are self-servingly doing everything in their power to prevent majority-based governance in an Electoral Democracy, and has nothing to do with Thaksin or the performance of this Govt.

If there was a reference to Thaksin at this gathering in Korat yesterday, I missed it..I'm sure there was, but it was merely in passing....All I saw was a format whereby many regionally-based groups of the UDD/RS's, spoke in order throughout the day, exclaiming vociforously their refusal to buckle-under again, to anti-Democtats seeking to steal their voting selections.

This was not a case of UDD incitement...These were grass-roots voters demanding their votes be respected...It didn't take incitement by the UDD or PTP... These people spoke from the heart, many with fire in their eyes..It didn't take the UDD, or PTP to fire these people up....Suthep and his shadowy supporters with their street antics in BKK, plus their user-friendly courts and Independent agencies have done a very good job of that, all by themselves....In fact by the time Jatuporn and Nathawut spoke, it was later in the day, when many participants had already left.

It was noteworthy that unlike many of these gatherings when participants begin to drift home after Lunch. Yesterday the double-tiered levels of this Gymnasium remained packed throughout the day, listening to regional-based leaders of their own kind...No Centralized leadership needed. The PTP/UDD/RS resistance to Elitist anti-democrats is bottom-up, let no-one be confused about that.

The suggestion that the " PDRC co-leaders declared to end the game by launching an "onslaught" against the caretaker government and Shinawatra business empire" is folderol. Their onslaught is a crass challenge by an unelectable political minority against the majority in an Electoral Democracy. They are self-servingly challenging voter-majority selections, pretending it is against a caretaker Govt. A Govt. they are trying to characterize as having no electoral roots...It is those millions of roots they are up against, and those "majority" roots don't appreciate it, nor will accept it.

That was on prominent display in Korat yesterday.

The amnesty bill that really got this latest conflict started

Did this meeting consider what kind of reforms would be beneficial to Thai society?

Surely all these grass-roots representatives are well aware that the actual participation in this incomplete election was woefully low. Was this discussed and seen as a problem?

Did they find it relevant to discuss that or how to possibly improve it in the future?

These aren't just trick questions. I am genuinely curious to learn that the UDD truly is a democratic organisation that defines it's policies based on the wishes and concerns of it's grass-roots members.

>"The amnesty bill that really got this latest conflict started"

This position is erroneous from the get-go.....This amnesty thing was merely a fabricated issue which could easily have been 'Parliamentarized". What started this latest attempt to overthrow an elected government by unelectables - not conforntation as is suggested - is merely a reprise of 2006, by many of the same players....When the amnesty thing didn't work, they went to anti-Thaksinism, then to preventing an election, and so on...With the common denominator being Coup-intentionism by an electoral minority.

>"Did this meeting consider what kind of reforms would be beneficial to Thai society?"

Not the intent of the meeting. Such a question can be "Parliamentarized". The intent of this meeting was not to engage in Parliamentary debate, but provide another shot-across-the-bow to the Elites and their coup intentions, that there will be "hell to pay" if they seek to achieve their objectives on the street, in user-friendly Judicial chambers or their so-called Independent Agencies....... Self-described independence which doesn't fool anyone.

>"Surely all these grass-roots representatives are well aware that the actual participation in this incomplete election was woefully low. Was this discussed and seen as a problem?

Coup-intentioned people maligning an incomplete election as if 'failure' is a fact, sure are afraid to finish it and tabulate it. Explaining that fact explains a lot.

>"These aren't just trick questions. I am genuinely curious to learn that the UDD truly is a democratic organisation that defines it's policies based on the wishes and concerns of it's grass-roots members"

I accept them as such, and responded accordingly. Yesterday was definitely an assurance, not that one was needed, that "...the UDD truly is a democratic organisation that defines it's policies based on the wishes and concerns of it's grass-roots members" "....At this point that is not an issue. Defending Electoral Democracy and respecting the votes of the electoral majority is the issue and the UDD/RS are in the forefront of that debate.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, and apologies for not responding earlier.

For an outsider it would appear that this 'war-drum' meeting was only really about rallying support to react to events already ongoing. This surprises me with an organisation with leaders with knowledge of political theory such as Thida, who surely knows that as long as you are only reacting, your opponent is winning.

That such an important meeting avoids discussion of pertinent questions about the amnesty bill, popular reforms and the, even in the red-shirt strongholds, poor election participation, creates an impression of a very 'top-down' organized movement, which unfortunately only strengthens, preconceived, impressions of the (un)democratic nature of the UDD and it's apparently marxist inspired organisation form.

I sincerely hope that the UDD can progress to the point where it can welcome open discussion about the problems facing Thailand and it's future, and break free of it's trench (warfare) mentality and dogmatic defence of one self-enriching elite clan.

m.v.g.