Dutch bar owner killed in Udon Thani

[johnefallis]

An inconsequential comment to this travesty. His name doesn't appear to be Dutch....Looks more English to me, but never mind...Hope they catch the perps.

A shot-across-the-bow to us inveterate optimists, who think they live in a similarly safe and policed place to what they are accustomed to.

It is Thai wifey who keeps up the 'alert level' for me....Constantly telling me not to be so trusting of Thai people, which route to take home late at night, never stopping for people seeking a ride, even if they are Monks, etc,. etc.

I know this is overgeneralizing and not fair to the Thai people as a whole, who treat me with the utmost respect to which I reciprocate in kind.

If not for warnings from her, I would automatically interact with inquiring Thai's at my front gate, perhaps the same way this person did..........Like the saying goes, "But for the grace of God, there go I".

His name doesn't appear to be Dutch....Looks more English to me,

Frederik Franciscus Lelie. about as English as Robin van Persie.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lelie_(geslacht)

Van Persie means HOOD.

I just got it, duh! Lol

[billbus12]

Compared to where I live in the states now this place is Disneyland I stop counting the murders and robbery's and home invasions ,I cant wait to retire in Khon Kaen next year I'm more worried about the protesters there than anything else.

[kimbathewhitelion]

Compared to where I live in the states now this place is Disneyland I stop counting the murders and robbery's and home invasions ,I cant wait to retire in Khon Kaen next year I'm more worried about the protesters there than anything else.

Read the OP or start a new one. This was the death of a good man, allow him to rest. The why so many people are so selfish and ignorant...

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[kimbathewhitelion]

Get a heart, grow a soul!

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[Thai at Heart]

The wife probably had the manager hired on her request. Old friend maybe, Isan has high murder rate of falangs per capita. Wifes, boyfriends, machete choping also.

Nonsense.

Isaan doesn't have the hardcore base jumping community that exists in Bangkok and Pattaya.

I notice queues of farangs looking to buy condos in isaan just so they can jump off with the regularity of those down south.

There are relatively few farang murders in isaan. Its just there are more farangs coming to isaan.

[kimbathewhitelion]

The wife probably had the manager hired on her request. Old friend maybe, Isan has high murder rate of falangs per capita. Wifes, boyfriends, machete choping also.

Nonsense.

Isaan doesn't have the hardcore base jumping community that exists in Bangkok and Pattaya.

I notice queues of farangs looking to buy condos in isaan just so they can jump off with the regularity of those down south.

There are relatively few farang murders in isaan. Its just there are more farangs coming to isaan.

Another useless individual along with whoever you were quoting. Someone died.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Naam]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

i am considering to heed your warning, leave Thailand and thinking of retiring in Unterpfaffenhofen (Bavaria) where i will avoid to own a bar and hopefully not meet people who render ridiculous advice.

[ericthai]

My gal just read some Thai News that they caught his Manager, who confessed. And there is one more accomplice still loose. This is not confirmed in anything I read...so take it for face value or not.

That sounds more likely than just a robbery.

I will never understand Thai logic. The manager wants to kill his boss for what, his business?

Biting the hand that feeds you.

Saw an attempted murder in Subic Town, Philippines. A newbee retiree opened a bar called the Silver Dollar. All sorts of coins under the glass covering to the bar. He would count his money on the bar at closing. His wife hired a Ladyboy Manager from hell, who controlled every aspect of the bar. Evidently, she had "mismanaged" some money and was fired. Next night, a trike (tuk-tuk) drove by and fired at him several times (but missed). The bar was closed immediately, and he has since fled the area/or country. Probably a possible scenario anywhere...but I leave it up to the people who actually run bars in Thailand to input their stories with hostile/greedy managers.

You cant even compare the Philippines to Thailand. Philippines (mainly Manila) is way more dangerous. Prior to moving to Thailand I was working all over Southeast Asia. We had an office in Manila and our driver always locked the doors as soon as I got in when picked up at the hotel. He always told me to wait inside until he shows up. Ever go to a bank in Manila? Locked doors and armed guards outside. You want in they check you out knock on the door a guy looks out and then decides to open the door or not. Inside you have more security guards with guns both behind the counter and in front and the front door is locked behind you when you come in. McDonald s has security guards with guns. I have been living in Thailand about 20 years and never had an issue. Sure you have to be smart about things and there are areas in Thailand that I would not want to be out at 3am down a dark soi, but for the most part Thailand is safe!

For the Dutch guy RIP.

[Stone Inscription 1]

Police will not follow up on crimes with unimportant people.

The complete juridical system is not following up anything but cases against the ones too weak to escape or buy their way out.

Heard anything about the red bull heir killing a policemen driving drugged & drunk?

Heard anything about a former PM, convicted but getting a new passport?

Heard anything about a opposition leader appearing on stages but the active arrest warrant is not executed?

Heard anything about a caretaker PM not appearing in front of the court when ordered to?

Bye,

Derk

Whatever happened to the monk who raped the young girls, had oodles of cash, a couple of aeroplanes, lots of expensive cars et al?

Edited March 2, 2014 by Stone Inscription 1

[MaiChai]

I have stirred up some controversy here! Sorry to have detracted from the terrible murder of this man.

As some have said, there are worse places in the world. Ultimately you have to decide whether its risky for you to live here. Now I just visit and live in my home country, which for me is much safer and much easier in so many ways. I am just an ordinary, middle class professional, nothing special of note. Even my Thai wife prefers my home country now, and she says its a much better and easier life.

[bbradsby]

I have lived in Thailand for 14 years have not seen as much as a fist fight since leaving Pattaya over a decade ago, seen more problems in the states on my visits, that to me indicates where the real safety is in rural Thailand away from the Farang ghetto cities that are very violent areas caused by locals, many by drunk Farangs.

Nonsense. Spend some time in Bangkok's non-touristed neighborhoods, not on the golf courses, gated communities and posh condos. Vocational school gang fights, knifings and shootings; street brawling that escalates to knifings; and where its common for boys/men to carry guns in their cars, which is why you NEVER start, escalate nor intercede in a traffic or bar/restaurant altercation with a Thai male.

The combination of testosterone, armament, alcohol and need to save face at all costs is lethal.

Edited March 2, 2014 by bbradsby

[simon43]

The last time that I was in Udon this farang happened to tell me that A hit there cost between 100000-200000 baht

Ha!! That's farang double-pricing for you...

RIP Dutch guy

[rametindallas]

Always best to stay below the radar,AND don't flash the cash,

RIP old fella

regards Worgeordie

60 is not old! "old fella", indeed.

If a previous poster's Thai GF is correct and it was his bar's manager, his death was a foregone conclusion and the robber/murderer would be recognized. What a horrible way to die.

[rametindallas]

An inconsequential comment to this travesty. His name doesn't appear to be Dutch....Looks more English to me, but never mind...Hope they catch the perps.

A shot-across-the-bow to us inveterate optimists, who think they live in a similarly safe and policed place to what they are accustomed to.

It is Thai wifey who keeps up the 'alert level' for me....Constantly telling me not to be so trusting of Thai people, which route to take home late at night, never stopping for people seeking a ride, even if they are Monks, etc,. etc.

I know this is overgeneralizing and not fair to the Thai people as a whole, who treat me with the utmost respect to which I reciprocate in kind.

If not for warnings from her, I would automatically interact with inquiring Thai's at my front gate, perhaps the same way this person did..........Like the saying goes, "But for the grace of God, there go I".

It is almost exclusively Dutch. You might find this website helpful: http://worldnames.publicprofiler.org/Default.aspx

[smovi57]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

Most retirees need not worry as they most likely will not be operating a beer bar, nor making income from bar fines.

I suggest you do some research on the Models 59 Bar and find out exactly the type of bar it was and its recent history. You can do your own search and read the delightful stories.

And yes indeed it is reported that the owner's "right hand man" has been arrested and accused of the murder.

What a disgraceful post! I knew it'd just be a matter of time before the Thaier-than-Thai apologists stunk up the thread by somehow blaming the victim. After all, they can't have such accusations of murder pointed at their beloved Thais without some kind of response to deflect the blame.

You see the same posters pop up every time an expat or tourist is slaughtered.

Thaier, than Thai? Deflecting the blame? No and No.

A claim was made that Thailand is a violent place, and that it is not safe for retirees.. I point out that there was important contributing factor which does not affect most retirees and you go off on a tangent with hyperbole. The situation is very, very different than the living conditions that the vast majority of retirees will experience. That vast majority of retirees live their lives in a peaceful manner without fear of attack or violent crime. They also have enough common sense not to get involved in a business that has an elevated risk of danger and where one will inevitably have to transact with criminals and people who are given to violence. I've seen that bar,as I have many of the other bars in Udon Thani town. Some are safer than others. This wasn't a bar in that catered to families or business people, or even students on vacation. It was a place with its own history. It is you who wants to avoid the unpleasant issue of a bar, reportedly shut down by the police following a brutal assault of a customer that resulted in the customer having his head cut open. It is you that wants to deflect away from the fact that the bar made income from the trade in human flesh. I can think of more responsible ways than making income from prostitutes. That doesn't excuse or deflect away from a murder, but puts the crime in context.

You do not know the actual circumstances, but instead wish to embrace the convoluted explanations of a conspiracy or a plot against foreigners. The reality is that most of these bar related murders involve business dealings gone awry. Sometimes it is non payment of wages, or debts and sometimes it is a love mess where the owner dips into the candy jar of women once too often. Other times it is a crime of opportunity. We don't know the facts. However, the reality is that this crime has absolutely no impact on the lives of the thousands foreign retirees in Thailand. The reality is that for those retirees who do not go bars like Model '59 and have no dealings with the type of people associated in that type of business, they have a negligible risk of physical harm.

Nothing wrong with prostitution, without it a lot of people in the village would starve to death.

[rametindallas]

Extraordinarily sad. However, sorry to speculate, that is quite a violent death for a robbery! I'm sure money was taken but I feel that calling this a robbery is understating it a bit. To me it seems like the cash was a "bonus".

Do you know something concrete or is this just speculation for the sake of it ? Do tell if you know. Why is this kind of post 'popular' ? I cannot imagine anything more 'normal' than a straightforward robbery of a person known to carry large amounts of cash.

Please re-read my post. Word number 6 mostly.

Funny, you don't seem sorry to speculate. In fact you willingly speculate broadly and wildly with no supporting evidence. Why do it? Even when it comes out that the manager confessed, you speculate that he was a fall guy and the mafia did it. This is not the place to practice writing your fantasy novel.

[smovi57]

An inconsequential comment to this travesty. His name doesn't appear to be Dutch....Looks more English to me, but never mind...Hope they catch the perps.

A shot-across-the-bow to us inveterate optimists, who think they live in a similarly safe and policed place to what they are accustomed to.

It is Thai wifey who keeps up the 'alert level' for me....Constantly telling me not to be so trusting of Thai people, which route to take home late at night, never stopping for people seeking a ride, even if they are Monks, etc,. etc.

I know this is overgeneralizing and not fair to the Thai people as a whole, who treat me with the utmost respect to which I reciprocate in kind.

If not for warnings from her, I would automatically interact with inquiring Thai's at my front gate, perhaps the same way this person did..........Like the saying goes, "But for the grace of God, there go I".

It is almost exclusively Dutch. You might find this website helpful: http://worldnames.publicprofiler.org/Default.aspx

sounds like you live in a prison, cant go to your front gate to talk to some one, what a joke what are you afraid of?

[smovi57]

The wife probably had the manager hired on her request. Old friend maybe, Isan has high murder rate of falangs per capita. Wifes, boyfriends, machete choping also.

Nonsense.

Isaan doesn't have the hardcore base jumping community that exists in Bangkok and Pattaya.

I notice queues of farangs looking to buy condos in isaan just so they can jump off with the regularity of those down south.

There are relatively few farang murders in isaan. Its just there are more farangs coming to isaan.

Another useless individual along with whoever you were quoting. Someone died.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Iam not talking about suicide, iam talking a thai wife or her boyfriend or family. killing a falang happens all the time. falang goes to isan and ends up in a fire pit.

[EyesWideOpen]

The wife probably had the manager hired on her request. Old friend maybe, Isan has high murder rate of falangs per capita. Wifes, boyfriends, machete choping also.

Nonsense.

Isaan doesn't have the hardcore base jumping community that exists in Bangkok and Pattaya.

I notice queues of farangs looking to buy condos in isaan just so they can jump off with the regularity of those down south.

There are relatively few farang murders in isaan. Its just there are more farangs coming to isaan.

Another useless individual along with whoever you were quoting. Someone died.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Iam not talking about suicide, iam talking a thai wife or her boyfriend or family. killing a falang happens all the time. falang goes to isan and ends up in a fire pit.

Actually it would be interesting to know the farang death rate for Isan. We have all read the

stories, including the guy ending up in the fire pit, would be nice to know the actual number.

I suspect it would be much higher than you think.......

[rametindallas]

The last time that I was in Udon this farang happened to tell me that A hit there cost between 100000-200000 baht.It also take care of the law.So I wouldn't doubt it might not have been just for A robbery.

10,000, or less, will by a murder from a yaba addict and 20,000 to off the yaba addict (cheap because the death of a yaba addict will not be investigated). These are Bangkok prices (so I've been told by a policeman friend).

[ttthailand]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

You need to get over your fear mongering the man was not retired here he was running a business which even holds dangers for Thai people. Thailand dangerous probably as a whole not any more than the US

I disagree, I think Thailand is much more dangerous than the US because it gives you a perception that it is safe thus you sometimes drop your guard. It's like a snake in the grass, you never see it coming until its too late.

I not like to hear of anyone getting killed for any reason but the guy killed ran girly bars so what do you expect. He lived daily with an element of society that is known for such actions.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[expat888]

My gal just read some Thai News that they caught his Manager, who confessed. And there is one more accomplice still loose. This is not confirmed in anything I read...so take it for face value or not.

That sounds more likely than just a robbery.

I will never understand Thai logic. The manager wants to kill his boss for what, his business?

Biting the hand that feeds you.

Saw an attempted murder in Subic Town, Philippines. A newbee retiree opened a bar called the Silver Dollar. All sorts of coins under the glass covering to the bar. He would count his money on the bar at closing. His wife hired a Ladyboy Manager from hell, who controlled every aspect of the bar. Evidently, she had "mismanaged" some money and was fired. Next night, a trike (tuk-tuk) drove by and fired at him several times (but missed). The bar was closed immediately, and he has since fled the area/or country. Probably a possible scenario anywhere...but I leave it up to the people who actually run bars in Thailand to input their stories with hostile/greedy managers.

You cant even compare the Philippines to Thailand. Philippines (mainly Manila) is way more dangerous. Prior to moving to Thailand I was working all over Southeast Asia. We had an office in Manila and our driver always locked the doors as soon as I got in when picked up at the hotel. He always told me to wait inside until he shows up. Ever go to a bank in Manila? Locked doors and armed guards outside. You want in they check you out knock on the door a guy looks out and then decides to open the door or not. Inside you have more security guards with guns both behind the counter and in front and the front door is locked behind you when you come in. McDonald s has security guards with guns. I have been living in Thailand about 20 years and never had an issue. Sure you have to be smart about things and there are areas in Thailand that I would not want to be out at 3am down a dark soi, but for the most part Thailand is safe!

For the Dutch guy RIP.

One thing Slip stated here that I have found is true and I have seen multiple instances. Ladyboys as managers is asking for trouble. Initially, it may seem like a good choice but it goes sour every time. They always seems to have their own agenda that you don't see that in the beginning but it comes out later.

That has been my experience. Maybe others have had a different result. I haven't seen it.

[slipperylobster]

Was it not mentioned that the manager was an ex cop? I heard the other guy was his bodyguard (That coming from somebody inside Club 59). My thoughts are they were very angry ... perhaps a labor dispute. Several people in the bar said employees there had some disputes....cannot elaborate. It sounds like a mutiny, and a violent, angry argument. Not a thing touched in the house, but the man lived alone. Some money out of a shoe...could not have been more than 30,000, as he took it out daily.

[draftvader]

Extraordinarily sad. However, sorry to speculate, that is quite a violent death for a robbery! I'm sure money was taken but I feel that calling this a robbery is understating it a bit. To me it seems like the cash was a "bonus".

Do you know something concrete or is this just speculation for the sake of it ? Do tell if you know. Why is this kind of post 'popular' ? I cannot imagine anything more 'normal' than a straightforward robbery of a person known to carry large amounts of cash.

Please re-read my post. Word number 6 mostly.

Funny, you don't seem sorry to speculate. In fact you willingly speculate broadly and wildly with no supporting evidence. Why do it? Even when it comes out that the manager confessed, you speculate that he was a fall guy and the mafia did it. This is not the place to practice writing your fantasy novel.

I presented options. In one of my posts I stated that I know nothing more than anybody else on here.

My only true opinion is that calling this "robbery" does rather underplay a particularly vicious and personal murder.

[smovi57]

Extraordinarily sad. However, sorry to speculate, that is quite a violent death for a robbery! I'm sure money was taken but I feel that calling this a robbery is understating it a bit. To me it seems like the cash was a "bonus".

Do you know something concrete or is this just speculation for the sake of it ? Do tell if you know. Why is this kind of post 'popular' ? I cannot imagine anything more 'normal' than a straightforward robbery of a person known to carry large amounts of cash.

Please re-read my post. Word number 6 mostly.

Funny, you don't seem sorry to speculate. In fact you willingly speculate broadly and wildly with no supporting evidence. Why do it? Even when it comes out that the manager confessed, you speculate that he was a fall guy and the mafia did it. This is not the place to practice writing your fantasy novel.

I presented options. In one of my posts I stated that I know nothing more than anybody else on here.

My only true opinion is that calling this "robbery" does rather underplay a particularly vicious and personal murder.

maybe they just wanted to take his gogo.

[rametindallas]

Extraordinarily sad. However, sorry to speculate, that is quite a violent death for a robbery! I'm sure money was taken but I feel that calling this a robbery is understating it a bit. To me it seems like the cash was a "bonus".

Please re-read my post. Word number 6 mostly.

Funny, you don't seem sorry to speculate. In fact you willingly speculate broadly and wildly with no supporting evidence. Why do it? Even when it comes out that the manager confessed, you speculate that he was a fall guy and the mafia did it. This is not the place to practice writing your fantasy novel.

I presented options. In one of my posts I stated that I know nothing more than anybody else on here.

My only true opinion is that calling this "robbery" does rather underplay a particularly vicious and personal murder.

You painted whole, fanciful suppositions but, whatever, dude. Make up anything you like and post it. I'm done.

[jinners]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

I have lived in Thailand for 14 years have not seen as much as a fist fight since leaving Pattaya over a decade ago, seen more problems in the states on my visits, that to me indicates where the real safety is in rural Thailand away from the Farang ghetto cities that are very violent areas caused by locals, many by drunk Farangs.

May you rest in Peace!

Cheers

Well having visited Thailand many years, but only recently (3 years) moved permanently here, I can say I have never seen aggro. I live in the most populous areas or visit them. So maybe I am lucky, I go down WS and Soi LK where the most drunks I assume, would be. Don't look for trouble, yet when home in England see much more trouble. Know people who have been killed and assaulted while doing nothing but minding their own business.

This anti Thai generalization really makes me wonder <deleted> so many OP are doing living here, maybe its purely financial and they don't really like the place?

RIP, heinous crime, hope they get the bastards responsible.

[smovi57]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

I have lived in Thailand for 14 years have not seen as much as a fist fight since leaving Pattaya over a decade ago, seen more problems in the states on my visits, that to me indicates where the real safety is in rural Thailand away from the Farang ghetto cities that are very violent areas caused by locals, many by drunk Farangs.

May you rest in Peace!

Cheers

Well having visited Thailand many years, but only recently (3 years) moved permanently here, I can say I have never seen aggro. I live in the most populous areas or visit them. So maybe I am lucky, I go down WS and Soi LK where the most drunks I assume, would be. Don't look for trouble, yet when home in England see much more trouble. Know people who have been killed and assaulted while doing nothing but minding their own business.

This anti Thai generalization really makes me wonder <deleted> so many OP are doing living here, maybe its purely financial and they don't really like the place?

RIP, heinous crime, hope they get the bastards responsible.

people who live here like the country, they dont have to like the natives.

[draftvader]

Extraordinarily sad. However, sorry to speculate, that is quite a violent death for a robbery! I'm sure money was taken but I feel that calling this a robbery is understating it a bit. To me it seems like the cash was a "bonus".

The number and type of injuries tell a story. Certainly this person wanted to make sure this person was dead and wanted it to be graphic. Either a clear message to other "business interests" (i.e. local "protection") or this was personal. Stabbing somebody 5 times and then cutting their throat isn't something somebody does easily. Remembering also that the "standard" robbery murder round here involves a gun this feels VERY personal as it would involve touching the person as you are killing them.

Just extrapolating on my last point. If it WAS the "manager" (i.e. this isn't just a frame up to cover up a "local protection" demonstration killing) then maybe we are talking about a love interest. Maybe the manager had something going with one of the girls and was angry to see the "farang" taking a cut from his precious woman (or the owner had been "sampling" for free)? That would certainly provide the rage in an emotionally immature man to drive them to this level of attack.

Remember, I am just extrapolating and KNOW nothing more than anybody else on here.

You painted whole, fanciful suppositions but, whatever, dude. Make up anything you like and post it. I'm done.

I presented each of my statements (above, due to forum quoting limitations I can't quote all my responses, but you are welcome to go back and read them) as my own opinions. You are welcome to disagree and present your own. However your debating style appears to be to attack somebody for offending some strange personal code rather than discussing their opinions or presenting your own to counter and involve yourself in healthy debate.

Being that they are my opinions and I did state that I was "extrapolating and KNOW nothing more than anybody else on here" I have every right to post them and feel that you might want to actually try and engage me rather than play some cowardly "hit and fade" game on an online forum. From what I can read it appears that you have offered no opinion (or for that matter condolences or empathetic statement for the victim or his family) in your posts, just contrary points to other people's statements.

I am allowed my opinion and you are allowed yours. I welcome a reasoned debate.

"Dude"? Such a low value pacification.

Edited March 3, 2014 by draftvader

[jinners]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

I have lived in Thailand for 14 years have not seen as much as a fist fight since leaving Pattaya over a decade ago, seen more problems in the states on my visits, that to me indicates where the real safety is in rural Thailand away from the Farang ghetto cities that are very violent areas caused by locals, many by drunk Farangs.

May you rest in Peace!

Cheers

Well having visited Thailand many years, but only recently (3 years) moved permanently here, I can say I have never seen aggro. I live in the most populous areas or visit them. So maybe I am lucky, I go down WS and Soi LK where the most drunks I assume, would be. Don't look for trouble, yet when home in England see much more trouble. Know people who have been killed and assaulted while doing nothing but minding their own business.

This anti Thai generalization really makes me wonder <deleted> so many OP are doing living here, maybe its purely financial and they don't really like the place?

RIP, heinous crime, hope they get the bastards responsible.

people who live here like the country, they dont have to like the natives.

well as its impossible to have one without the other that seems an utterly ridiculous conclusion, but may explain a lot of the bile spewed on here.