German Visa for Thai MIL to stay in Germany to look after baby

[beano2274]

Background:

British citizen living in Germany with my Thai wife, who has Aufenthaltskarte, valid for 4 years.

My wife is learning German and we are thinking of having a baby, after the baby break wife would like to work, but have her mother come here and look after the baby.

Which visa can MIL apply for?

I already know that she can get a visa for free, as we did that last year for her.

[Jay Sata]

To work as a nanny or au pair in Germany there is a special visa specifically for that category. It lasts one year and requires a German language test.

I don't think you can just bring your mother in law over to take care of the baby to avoid normal German child care costs.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Donutz]

In essence you are doing the "EU route" (using your EU rights of freedom of movement) which enables familiy (partner and direct family) certain excemptions and other benefits that do not apply for citizens in their own EU country (Germans in Germany). Your wife has no obligation to go to language-courses etc. for instance. And the EU route also allows direct family (mother, father, children) to come over and settle. I have no experience or knowledge on how the EU route works though, sorry. But there should be forums which explain the EU/German route and how you can get your wifes mother to come over and settle. Good luck!

[Jay Sata]

As far as I know you can not just bring your spouses parents to Germany.

The OP wants to bring his mother in law to work as a childminder.

Therefore she needs the Au Pair visa.

She could visit on a 90 day visit visa when the baby is born but will then have to leave and cannot return on another 90 day visa until 180 days have elapsed. However you are not allowed to work on a visitor visa.

[Donutz]

As a UK citizen (or Belgian, or Dutchman, or Swede, or... ) living in Germany you don't fall under de German immigration laws but under de EU laws/treaties. National laws for national citizens (Germans in Germany, Belgians in Belgium etc.) used to be more lenient then the rights for EU citizens but due to the ever more strict national laws the EU rights for those who van exercise their " freedom of movement rights" are now more lenient.

For instance a UK citizen in Germany with Thai partner means more lenient income requirements (being self sufficient is enough), no language exam/demands/obligations for the Thai partner and a few other "benefits" . The EU also gives certain rights to direct family (parents etc.) and they can come to Germany and settle here. I don't know the details though but as a EU (non-German!!) person in Germany you have a far more easier time in Germany then Germans with a foreign (Thai) partner.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_reunification

When you return to your home country (The UK, BE, NL, ...) the Thai family member can also exercise their EU rights and the benefits that it gives, their residence card/permit should have say something along the lines of " family member of an EU/EEA citizen"

This may help,(this is the Dutch Immigration and Naturalisation Department [iND] but the principle is the same and the German immigration department should/might have such a page too :

https://ind.nl/en/individuals/residence-wizard/eu/third-country-nationals

Third country nationals

​If a citizen of the European Union (EU), European Economic Area (EEA) or Switzerland is living in the Netherlands, their family members who are not EU/EEA or Swiss citizens also have the right to live here.


If you intend to stay in the Netherlands for more than 3 months, and you are a family member of an EU/ EEA or Swiss citizen and you yourself do not hold an EU/EEA or Swiss nationality, you may apply for verification against EU Law and request the issue of a certificate of lawful residence. To request this certificate (document) you must meet certain requirements.

A family member could be a partner, a registered partner or spouse, a child, grandchild, parent, grandparent or a relative other than the family members mentioned. You may apply for the certificate of lawful residence (proof of lawful stay) if:

• You are the spouse, partner or registered partner of an EU citizen.
• You are the child or grandchild of an EU citizen.
• You are a family member in the ascending line (parent or grandparent) of an EU citizen.
• You are a relative of an EU citizen, other than parent, grandparent, child, grandchild of an EU citizen.
• You are a Dutch national who derives rights from the Treaty Establishing the European Economic Community

Please note!

Although Dutch citizens are also EU citizens, it is not possible to apply for the certificate of lawful residence if you want to stay in the Netherlands as a family member or relative of a Dutch national. There is one exception to this, namely:

• You are a family member or relative of a Dutch national, and
• The Dutch national with whom you wish to stay resided previously in another EU/EEA Member State or in Switzerland under EU Law (as an employee, a self-employed person, a student, or an economically non-active person), and
• You stayed with the Dutch national in the other EU/EEA Member State or in Switzerland, and
• The Dutch national currently lives in the Netherlands again.

[Jay Sata]

Well there is certainly lots to read there but please show me the paragraph that allows a non EU spouse to bring her mother to Germany to act as an unpaid childminder.

You appear to to suggest that a non EU spouse can bring a complete extended family to Germany without the normal visa requirements.

All I can see is the right of an EU citizen to bring his direct extended family. No mention of a non EU extended family.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Donutz]

Well there is certainly lots to read there but please show me the paragraph that allows a non EU spouse to bring her mother to Germany to act as an unpaid childminder.

You appear to to suggest that a non EU spouse can bring a complete extended family to Germany without the normal visa requirements.

All I can see is the right of an EU citizen to bring his direct extended family. No mention of a non EU extended family.

As an EU/EEA national who exercises his/her freedom of movement rights in an other EU country you can indeed let your extended family and your extended family in law come over (based on Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004L0038:en:NOT ).

See also:

Who is covered by Directive 2004/38/EC?

• Citizens of an EU or EEA member state who visit, live, study or work in a different member state
• The EU citizen’s direct family members, including their non-EU spouse and the spouse’s direct family members (such as children)
• Other family members who are “beneficiaries”, including common law partners, same sex partners, and dependent family members, members of the household, and sick family members
• Family members (as outlined above), where the EU citizen has worked in another member state and now wishes to return to their “home” country to work [Singh]

Source: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/directive-200438ec/

And:

Family members

Family members are defined as the spouse, under certain circumstances the partner with whom an EU citizen has contracted a registered partnership[42], direct descendants who are under the age of 21 or are still dependants, and the dependants' direct relatives in the ascending line as well as those of the spouse or partner.

People retaining the status of worker

Generally speaking, persons who have worked in the host Member State, but who no longer work there, lose the status of worker[43]. Nevertheless, EU law provides that EU citizens retain the status of worker in certain situations even where they are no longer employed[44], and therefore qualify for equal treatment.

Source: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:52010DC0373:en:NOT

Unfortunately I haven't read the EU route in detail (I haven't used it so only know the EU route basics) and from a Dutch forum on immigration (where various migration lawyers etc. share their knowledge). I bet there is an English (or German?) based website which covers the EU route in detail. ofcourse one could also consult an immigration lawyer and preferably one who has knowledge of the EU route and directive 2004/38/EC. I hope my post provides some useful pointers for the OP.

But in essence the extended family members of the non-EU spouse could come here (on a free visa: Schengen type C) and then apply for residence. The details of applying for residence I do not know. Perhaps the German immigration department can tell you more, but they might not be eager to (sometimes it's even hard enough to get the free Schengen C visa, let alone residence claims!), a lawyer may be able to help or the legal experts of the EU (Solvit etc.).

I found a Belgian immigration department page in English too: https://dofi.ibz.be/sites/dvzoe/EN/Application-guides/Pages/Directive_2004_38_EN.aspx

I don't suppose any migration lawyers are active on ThaiVisa?

Edited March 18, 2014 by Donutz

[7by7]

Donutz has already quoted what the Dutch say.

For the UK EUN2.6 Who are an EEA national’s core family members? says

The family members of an EEA national (part 7 of the EEA Regulations) include:
•spouses or civil partners;
•direct descendants of the EEA national or their spouse/ civil partner under 21;
•dependent direct descendants of the EEA national or their spouse/ civil partner 21 and over;
•dependent direct relatives in the ascending line, for example parents and grandparents of the EEA national or their spouse / civil partner.

As both the Dutch and the UK regulations are based upon the EU/EEA ones then Germany must have the same definition of family members.

The OP would, though, need to show that his mother in law wishes to move to Germany to live permanently with them as she is dependent upon him and his wife, her daughter; not merely to act as an unpaid child minder.

How strictly the Germans enforce this and what evidence they require, I don't know.

[Donutz]

Donutz has already quoted what the Dutch say.

For the UK EUN2.6 Who are an EEA national’s core family members? says

The family members of an EEA national (part 7 of the EEA Regulations) include:

•spouses or civil partners;

•direct descendants of the EEA national or their spouse/ civil partner under 21;

•dependent direct descendants of the EEA national or their spouse/ civil partner 21 and over;

•dependent direct relatives in the ascending line, for example parents and grandparents of the EEA national or their spouse / civil partner.

As both the Dutch and the UK regulations are based upon the EU/EEA ones then Germany must have the same definition of family members.

The OP would, though, need to show that his mother in law wishes to move to Germany to live permanently with them as she is dependent upon him and his wife, her daughter; not merely to act as an unpaid child minder.

How strictly the Germans enforce this and what evidence they require, I don't know.

Correct, hopefully there is page of the German authorities explaining these rights too (The Dutch and Belgians do, I provided those links). The exact details of how to apply (show that the mother is dependent) I do not know. Preparing yourself will obviously be of great benefit since you may encounter officials who do not know or pretend not t know (ie: refuse) you and your (spouse's) extended family your rights.

Various EU nations had to be slapped on the wrist by the EU Commision or EU court due to not applying the Freedom of Movement rights (or Schengen rights as per Visa Code) properly and at times they still fail to apply them properly.

[Jay Sata]

If you read the OP statement his mother in law is not a dependant. He wants to bring her over to take care of a baby they are thinking of having.

As far as I know there is no legislation that allows someone to us a non EU relative for cheap child care.

[Tony M]

If you read the OP statement his mother in law is not a dependant. He wants to bring her over to take care of a baby they are thinking of having.

As far as I know there is no legislation that allows someone to us a non EU relative for cheap child care.

You keep on saying " as far as I know" as if you are the font of all knowledge. It has already been established that you actually know very little, but you insist on trying to impose your views on others. It is not a matter of bringing over family members for "cheap child care". It is matter of EU law and freedom of movement. The OP's mother in law is a family member, and therefore benefits from the freedom of movement provisions of EU Directive 38/2004.

As I have said before, the "guidance" you give is often wrong, and therefore does not help anyone in any way at all. It also reflects badly on this forum as source of information and advice.

[Jay Sata]

I have never claimed to be an expert but I have travelled extensively during my lifetime. I am also a regular visitor to Germanywhere I have friends.

You appear to think the the German Familiennachzug or reunion certificate applies to any member of a non EU spouses family. It does not.

For non-EU citizens with a (temporary or permanent) residence permit, family members normally include children under the age of 18, spouses and in some cases other family members.

However Familiennachzug can only occur after certain conditions have been met, such as the size of the accommodation, the ability of the resident person to support dependents and a for the applicant a basic knowledge of German.

In specific exceptional cases immigration of dependent family such as a parent is possible. However this is only allowed to prevent unusual hardship. For example someone has very high care needs and no other relatives live in the home country who could take care of them. In this case it also has to be proved that sufficient means and sufficient living space are available. It especially has to be proven that a long-term (generally private) health insurance can be contracted.

Your can see this avenue is not a waltz in the park as you suggest.

Edited to remove mistakes on auto correct from I-pad

Edited March 19, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Tony M]

I have never claimed to be an expert but I have travelled extensively during my lifetime. I am also a regular visitor to Germanywhere I have friends.

You appear to think the the German Familiennachzug or reunion certificate applies to any member of a non EU spouses family. It does not.

For non-EU citizens with a (temporary or permanent) residence permit, family members normally include children under the age of 18, spouses and in some cases other family members.

However Familiennachzug can only occur after certain conditions have been met, such as the size of the accommodation, the ability of the resident person to support dependents and a basic knowledge of German.

So there is the killer...the need to have a basic knowledge of the German language.

Indeed, you have never claimed to be an expert, but you insist on giving your "advice" as expert knowledge. And, as I have said many times in this forum, you have never once acknowledged that your advice is wrong, nor have you ever apologised for giving misleading advice here.

Quoting German documentation means nothing. Family visit and family reunion visa and certificates have nothing to do with the freedom of movement of EU citizens and their family members. You are talking about non-EU nationals who do not benefit from the provisions of Directive 38/04. Being a regular visitor to Germany, and a "citizen of the world" doesn't make you an expert. I drink French wine, but that doesn't make me an expert on France. I am not an expert on all German regulations, but I am aware of some of the rights of EU citizens, and their family members, within the EU. If I am wrong I will apologise, which is more than you have ever done here.

I am not getting into an long involved argument with you. You need to research your arguments before you present them ( and that doesn't just mean posting another link on a subject you have Googled), and you certainly need to learn a lot about EU law. Having visited Germany doesn't make you an expert. And, I think you might even find that EU law overrides the language requirement in freedom of movement cases, so it is not in fact "the killer".

[Jay Sata]

In which case I bow to your superior knowledge and suggest the OP is reassured by you,there is nothing to,worry about and can bring his mother in law over to take care of the baby.

[Tony M]

In which case I bow to your superior knowledge and suggest the OP is reassured by you,there is nothing to,worry about and can bring his mother in law over to take care of the baby.

Sarcasm only works when it is well presented, which yours isn't. Now you could try apologising for all of the wrong advice you have given here over the past months.

[theoldgit]

Argumentative and insulting post removed.

[7by7]

It seems someone is confusing the German immigration rules with the EEA freedom of movement regulations.

To clarify.

The EEA freedom of movement regulations do not apply if the EEA national wishes to bring a qualifying non EEA national family member to the country of which they are a national. (Unless they qualify via the Surinder Singh route; i.e. have been living and working in another EEA state, their non EEA national family member has been living there with them and they are both now returning to the EEA national's home state.).

Therefore a German would have to use the German immigration rules, of which I know nothing, to bring their Thai mother in law to live in Germany with him and his wife.

But the OP is British and exercising his treaty right to live in Germany. Therefore his mother in law, as she is a qualifying family member under the EEA regulations, can use those EEA regulations to enter Germany and live there with him and her daughter, his wife; assuming she meets all the requirements, the main one being dependant upon her daughter and/or son in law.

As this is an English language forum I'm providing a link to the UK's guidance to ECOs: EEA family permit: EUN02. As this is an EU regulation, the German requirements must be essentially the same.

[NanLaew]

...and it's goodnight from Jay.

[beano2274]

I thank everyone, I am aware of the rules regarding the EEU as I have used them to get my wife and MIL visas before.