Leaving Thailand for China, here is why

[Scarpolo]

Absolutely and whole heartedly agree with the OP's summary, including his point on Business & Career Opportunities. I am experiencing the exact same phenomenon.

I lived in BKK for 8 years before spending a 3 year stint in India. Having returned 1 year ago to BKK and felt immediately uncomfortable and uninterested.

To remedy this I relocated up country and have found again the Thailand i fell in love with all those years ago.

Life is fabulous here.

I avoid like the plague BKK these days as it's demise seems to have accelerated in recent months due to knock of effects of the mod insurgence. The terminal velocity of this downward spiral has yet to be reached!

When it does it's gonna be pretty f-cking ugly for all there!

That was similar to my findings

[stickylies]

I agree with OP on the following points:

1. Thai's are herd animals with very little and I mean very little capacity for the slightest independence of action or thought.

Jup and this frustrates me from time to time. I am surrounded 24/7 by thai and (as written before) their rigid, uniform, simple-minded thinking is a downside. In 95% of the cases i know what they think/know/will say about just any subject. It bores the sh*t out of me after hearing the same thing for 1000th time.

2. Social expat settings: Addiction to your own ego is the norm.

Most farang i have met indeed only talk about themselves, cannot listen, cannot communicate, etc. However, it's mainly guys from a certain generation and these geniusses act the same in the west. I've been living here since I was in my 30s, open-minded, flexible, eager to learn, adventurous. I've only met a handful of longterm guys of the same age here sofar and most of them were ok, not full of themselves.

[Scarpolo]

As the OP mentions pollution:

Now China’s Super Rich Are Fleeing to Avoid Smog

http://time.com/28858/china-smog/ 18 March 2014

No shit

[Docno]

Just one quick comment... Trust me: the Chinese are even less fond of farangs than the Thais. Perhaps they don't show it as much... I'm not sure. I base this on the observations of my former Singapore Chinese gf who has spent a fair bit of time up there among people from both the gov't and private sector. She was shocked by some of the attitudes expressed when only Chinese people are around and when they're talking Chinese. There is still a lot of resentment left over from the West's actions in the 19th and 20th centuries, and the gov't encourages this. Some Thais may not be fond of farangs--and given some of our behaviour in the kingdom, it's hard to blame them--but I don't think they believe they are superior to us, at least not across the board. Many Chinese do, however, believe they are superior... they were the middle kingdom, and everyone 'outside' were barbarians. They were the most techologically advanced civilisation for a long time. This thinking has not changed a great deal. I think the younger people, especially those who leave China to get an education may be different (I've taught a lot of them at have been quite impressed), and maybe you'll have the good fortune to spend most of your time with them. Good luck...

[stoli]

I spent time in PRChina 1988 to late 90's when you needed an invite from a Communist Party Official to get a multi-entry visa which is what I had. When I was in China, they were poor. No desire to go back.

I too was in Chiang Mai in 1987. Very, very small town at that time. Things change. I went to Chongqing, China, last year, and was amazed at this city of 9 million. Fabulous infrastructure throughout the city. Better highways that in the U.S. The Chinese are doing a great job building their country, absolutely beautiful, and so much to do. I was impressed. Nothing like I thought it would be.

[Suradit69]

I am actually a long time reader of TV but over the years I have refrained from posting mainly because of the negative thai bashing people on here.

Then of Friday I was talking to a mate about this forum and I asked why do expats that live in Thailand just bag the the place and it's people and yet still stay there?

We'll he said those people with such attitudes will never be happy anywhere on earth it's just in their DNA basically they are just narks and lead a miserable life and want other people to come down to their level.

You and I won't call you sir are a typical example of the negative farangs that should have never stayed in the first place.

So go and take your negative thai bashing views and go and inflict your racist negative views on the Chinese .

Their loss thai lands gain.

And I hope the doors hits you on the way out!

And you sir is a perfect example of the other side of the coin, the hopeless naive who will be back here in a couple of years moaning over having lost their house or having been scammed.

If you read the post at all, you would have noticed that I do not really blame the Thai, nor could what I wrote in any way be construed as 'racist' or 'Thai bashing'.

There is always another side to the coin. One man's trash is another man's treasure and reverse. What appeals to many about Thailand: the corruption and freedom associated with it, the low education levels and therefore low incomes and low cost of living, is also the reason for many of its problems. For me, the positives do no longer outweigh the negatives and so, I have chosen to leave. That is a personal decision and one which you don't have to agree with. Maybe your requirements for a happy life are different than mine?

I might be a miserable nark, but I'll be slightly less miserable once I leave Thailand.

"And you sir is [sic] a perfect example of the other side of the coin, the hopeless naive who will be back here in a couple of years moaning over having lost their [sic] house or having been scammed."

Unfortunately slow-witted people are the targets of scams everywhere in the world. I've had a home here for 15 years. Never been scammed or had anything stolen and I don't walk around with a "kick me" sign pinned to my back either. And I bet that's true of the silent (i.e. not perpetually whining) majority.

... those people with such attitudes will never be happy anywhere on earth it's just in their DNA basically they are just narks and lead a miserable life and want other people to come down to their level."

Truer words were never spoken and in addition to "will never be happy anywhere on earth," they'll be taken advantage of anywhere on earth.

"A fool and his money are soon parted" aptly describes 90% of those who are intellectually overwhelmed by "clever" scams here in Thailand. The phrase. "Taking candy from a baby" could easily be re-coined as "Taking funds from a (clueless) farang." No challenge involved.

Someone took my candy. I'm going to China!

Edited March 31, 2014 by Suradit69

[taiping]

Why would any "Senior Manger" spend so much time bashing Thailand and explaining why he is moving to China?

Please OP, just pack your bags and GO.

I've been here a looong time and I love it - of course there are problems here, I don't deny it, but the alternatives don't seem very attractive to me. The Chinese seem obsessed with making money - am I wrong?

[DrTuner]

I get the points, but ... China ? All I've heard from expats there is pretty much "don't come here".

[JLCrab]

I spent time in PRChina 1988 to late 90's when you needed an invite from a Communist Party Official to get a multi-entry visa which is what I had. When I was in China, they were poor. No desire to go back.

I too was in Chiang Mai in 1987. Very, very small town at that time. Things change. I went to Chongqing, China, last year, and was amazed at this city of 9 million. Fabulous infrastructure throughout the city. Better highways that in the U.S. The Chinese are doing a great job building their country, absolutely beautiful, and so much to do. I was impressed. Nothing like I thought it would be.

My time spent in China was fascinating. I was there however at the invitation of a Chinese State-level organization. Today I would have no reason to go back other than as a tourist and these days I just avoid any unnecessary travel.

Edited March 31, 2014 by JLCrab

[atyclb]

Another"senior manager" from KFC bites the dust. He's no longer first in line, with prostitutes, the horror!

(.....chirp.....)

If i may voice my perception/opinion on this;

not that i find those girls interesting but it sure seems like they'd choose an older, less fit guy over a younger one BECAUSE the payment is bigger. Younger, fit, guys often do not see much value in giving money to those girls or giving more. Of course there are the young unfit ones that may pay whatever but the general appearance may not be better than the old guy LOL. some of those "young guys" are my friends.

imo society is not that interesting because it creates people (vast majority) in the mold of feudal 19th century that have little or no intellectual curiosity, imagination, creativity, etc etc and afraid of breaking social rules and deathly afraid of speaking english, + nationalism +xenophobia +lack of analytical thinking +face +corruption + incompetence, etc etc.

There is a small % of people that are wonderful, superb, creative and intelligent, funny that by the way are frustrated by the same things that frustrate foreigners.. one thai friend feels like she is visiting an alien planet.

When you send well thought out letters or email to companies or even leading hospitals typically they fail to even acknowledge having received it, even if it is in thai language.

but tons of expats don't care about the negative/dysfunctions as the positives they perceive outweigh the former. or they are not sober often enough to care.

[oneday]

Agree with just about all you say OP and I too am leaving Thailand, but going home. I think you are a little hard on the expats though, I wouldn't have said "most" are as you described, many, but not most. I see the kinds you are talking about, but I've also met many descent normal expats who are not as you describe.

Good luck.

[oldsailor35]

Well! Well!............only last week i was talking with an Englishman who has spent the last 9 years in China and is now looking to move here !

If what he had to tell me about China and the Chinese,is only half correct, i think that you might be in for a hell of a shock..........anyhow good luck in your search for greener grass. As for me, i have the brains to know that nothing stays the same anywhere and despite these changes, i feel that Thailand suits me.

Dont forget to take a mobile oxygen bottle and mask.

Edited March 31, 2014 by oldsailor35

[Donnie Brasco]

Why do you feel the need to explain yourself here ? No one cares.

totster

I'm truly fascinated by posters on this site who pop off a dismissive tweet when someone like Mr. Hammer takes the time and applies himself to articulating his personal motivations.

This happens all the time.

A good post will be pestered by some guy who couldn't put a similar report together if his very LIFE depended on it.

He heard somewhere back there that "brevity was the soul of wit" and he's decided that he's so Gawd-dammed clever he never has to apply himself.

He thanks GAWD for Twitter's 140 character every waking hour.

Please, Twitter-boys, DO follow your twitspirations to their logical end.

Please.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

[8OA8]

OP,

have you been to china?

I am interested to hear of your future, and hope you update your thread.

I would have been interested in golf but it appears physically defeating here,

the one poster who has been married 34 years is an exception,

but I would like to know how people prosper in thailand

I have been to Hong Kong. This time I plan to take a 3 month intensive mandarin course in Taiwan, then proceed from there.

Your answer that you have been to HK and are planning to visit TW gives an indication that you expect PRC to be similar place to those that you already visited.

I used to visit PRC on a regular basis, in fact once flying Bkk to PRC 4 times over a 10 day period. The 8 flights (4 x return) was rather than spending any unnecessarily time in PRC.

Don't burn any bridges at this end, I'd suggest you skip TW and go visit PRC first, even if just for a week to have a look see.

Good luck whatever you decide to do as life is a one way trip.

[Donnie Brasco]

In any case in ten or fifteen years nobody will have to leave for China.

China (and I don't mean some dye-black tw@t from Swatow or the Chinese coast and his big-haired over-lacquered wife) CHINA, as in the Han Chinese of Beijing will have reformed "food production here) and swallowed this place up like a fruit basket and spit out most the locals.

It's coming.

And there's not a damned thing the Thais can do about it.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

Edited March 31, 2014 by Donnie Brasco

[inasia]

I wish you all the best! I love China. My favourite city is Chengdu. I was planning to base myself there before the changes to visa regulations last year.

I'm going to Taiwan instead now. I leave soon.

I can't really say I'm abandoning Thailand, as I don't live in Thailand full-time. But I agree with the OP's reasoning.

Thailand is an easy country to live in. I have independent means - so I don't worry about employment prospects. But for ME, it has been difficult to meet educated, interesting, and attractive women. Caucasians are always passing though - but I'm looking for something more long-term. The kinds of Thai women who latch onto white guys generally don't interest me. As a farang, my status in Thai society isn't high enough to meet women who would interest me.

I'm not trying to troll. I'm talking about MY personal situation. The Thai Visa expat nazis might not agree with my opinion - but please respect my right to my opinion. And respect the OP's right to his opinion. You need to spend a day in our shoes before you pass judgement.

Edited March 31, 2014 by inasia

[misterphil]

Read this crap for a couple of minutes then had to stop. Youve lived a very shelterd 10 years here. All you go on about is Issan prostitues, obiously thats all youve had to deal with in your sorry 10 years youve been here.

You should of got out more and spent more time away from Soi Cowboy and Nana Plaza, and maybe you would never of left for China.

Good luck, but Im sure you will be writing the same dribble about China in 10 years time.

PS. You never slagged off your home country, nor told us where your from, so we know to avoid that place like the plague.

[NanLaew]

OP,

have you been to china?

I am interested to hear of your future, and hope you update your thread.

I would have been interested in golf but it appears physically defeating here,

the one poster who has been married 34 years is an exception,

but I would like to know how people prosper in thailand

I worked languished in China from 1981 to 1988. Then I quit and moved to Thailand.

And prospered!

[BlackJack]

I am not sure if Bangkok and Pattaya qualify as representing Thai life, expenses and experiences.

[bob strutt]

i beleive that you are just another whinging pom, your kind is every where, just me , me ,me , you see it all over thailand, what a shame you lot won the war bobs

[JSixpack]

What, after all we've invested in helping your weight loss?

Funny, I met a guy recently who lived in Taiwan and China, speaks fluent Mandarin (has a degree in it), who's moved to Thailand and intends to live here!

It's worth a try for you, I suppose. I don't think China will be the solution, though I hope it is and wish you well. People tend to take their problems with them. I suspect yours could be solved here in Thailand, but in any case, I think you'd be a lot more comfortable in a more Westernized country, as in Latin America (which a poster already mentioned).

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[kevvy]

In 10 years time you will telling members on another forum you will be leaving China.I find the Thai people here just like in my own country.Some are basta*ds,some are good.This is all around the world.I have not been here as long as you ,but I know the longer I stay here the better I like it.But I dont go to bars,I mix with Thai familis and farang men who married into a thai family They all treat me with respect. I hope you find what you are looking for in life.Good luck mate.We are need to be happy.

kevvy

[abhaya]

Nightlife: In rural Thailand at least you can still see the stars. Youll have to move to Tibet to see them in China.

Reputation of foreigners: Why would you expect any sort of special treatment because you are an expat (I think what you really mean is that you are white). Do foreigners get special treatment in your home country, no doubt a two hour interview followed by a full a body cavity search when going through immigration.

Lack of quality: People judge you by the other people you hang with, as you said you cannot befriend quality people because you have to make an effort to really know them- sounds like to you are to full of yourself to make the effort, and the people you do know are losers, this says more about you than them.

Business and career opportunities: You have me there, I didnt come out here for the money but for fun, adventure and experiencing new cultures. In that respect 100% success- no complaints and no regrets.

BTW if you expect legal protection China, well a nod is as good as a wink to a blind man.

Why China? I lived and worked in China on and off since 1986, I genuinely believe that Thais are more interested in quality of life and appreciating foreign cultures than the Chinese. If you the think the Thais are culturally narcissistic wait until live in the PRC for a few months, all will be revealed in the fullness of time.

Re: Chinese women I would agree with you, but you as someone under 30 why on earth would you have to return to Thailand and pay someone to have sex with you, unless you express yourself to the women you meet the way you expressed yourself here.

[dennisgb45]

Uhm...Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

[fatdrunkandstupid]

Mr Hammer

I have been following your posts for a couple of years now.

You are a smart and articulate guy.

I am now in the same boat as you.

Except I am in Phuket.

The quality/cost issue also looms large here. I am frankly gobsmacked at how they continue to get away with the ludicrous overpricing here in Phuket. Every high season I tell myself that next year the tourist won't come...but they kept showing up and getting fleeced.

My exit strategy however, is focussed on West Java. The Indonesian rupiah was devalued significantly last year by the government, the people are farang friendly, and they are muslim so there is no alcohol and thus none of the stag part <deleted> you refer to now proliferating Grunthep.

As I posted on another thread, Indonesia also now offers a 25 year visa for expats who marry a local girl. That aint never going to happen here in Thailand.

[MrWorldwide]

Potentially, Utopia is somewhere out there for all of us, but I've seen nothing in (southern) China to indicate that it would be *my* Utopia. I like the food and I can get that in most parts of SEA, particularly Malaysia. Still, horses for courses - bon voyage.

[Crash999]

I could mention other things which add to my decision such as the insane traffic, polution, lack of caring about common areas, for example, the fact that people in my soi drive Porsches but throw their trash on the street like a Mumbai slum. That you can't walk 100 meters without some horrible noise blaring at you or a commercial playing at full volume everywhere. That visa requirements are specifically made to keep people from staying (you get 3 months as a given in Taiwan and Hong Kong for example). That permanent residence here is all but impossible, where as there are fixed and firm rules for such things in Taiwan and Hong Kong.

I mean, these are minor annoyances, but I've been willing to accept them because I felt the price was worth it. I don't do so now. I don't think learning Mandarin will be easier, but I think the return on investment will be worth it compared to learning Thai in Thailand. After all, speaking Mandarin opens all kind of doors, where as speaking Thai doesn't really do much.

OP, I have to think you're trolling as anyone who has lived in China will know that almost all the things you listed are far worse than Thailand. In the event that you're serious I recommend you to go and live in mainland China for a month, not in a 5-star hotel but in the neighborhood that you think you'll be able to afford once you find a job. And do a bit of research before you go regarding pollution, traffic, ease of permanent residency, etc.

You can't compare mainland China to HK and Taiwan- both are far more developed and have a better quality of life.

The only real advantage China has is work opportunity. But the days of an easy dollar just because someone is a foreigner is long gone. There are countless foreigners living in China now with lots of qualifications, relevant industry work experience, and who can already speak fluent mandarin. What's a mid-30s guy who can't speak the language and has been out of work for a few years going to bring in terms of value?

Edited March 31, 2014 by Crash999

[MrWorldwide]

Based on this, I wouldn't be rushing off to China if my tastes were anything other than completely heterosexual.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s452w87PQmk

I've seen uglier trannies in Malaysia and Indonesia, but that's hardly an endorsement - something about Malay features really makes the men stand out from women.

[stickylies]

I am now in the same boat as you.

Except I am in Phuket.

The quality/cost issue also looms large here. I am frankly gobsmacked at how they continue to get away with the ludicrous overpricing here in Phuket. Every high season I tell myself that next year the tourist won't come...but they kept showing up and getting fleeced.

hell yeah, went to phuket for first time this year and left after 1 day. what an overpriced farce that is. not talking about phuket town but the "hats".

fresh coconut where i live 10 THB. phuket 40 THB. proposed/offered the guy 25 THB. guy rejected... off I went.

not geeneoaw but not stupid farang either...................................

[Maroon Watcher]

China is foward thinking they want everyone to speak Chinese....

In China you will be called Lowai (Derogatory term) But officiall will laugh this off as old fashioned (Ha ha)

You will be "protected by the all powerful "Leaders" - you need to be. (So it's safer than Thailand)

You will face many ignorant people who will expect you to move out of their way.
Or they will push you out of their way.

You will also meet people who want to learn about the world (Most of whom want to leave!)

Do Not help Anyone who falls over - they will fleece you for big compensation.

You will also see REAL traffic gridlock.

Your health WILL deteriorate ("Poison" levels in winter)

But you will also see a culture, it's history and it's development.

You will have good fun and be watched by everyone - that's funny?

AND you will earn an average THB 50,000 per month MORE than here

And most "lower classes" PICK there Nose and wipe it on the nearest hand rail!

But the bottom line is I would go back - If Thailand gets worse...

(And that includes the Farang!)

(I would chose where I would live)