Is Thailand a Buddhist country?

[TimCM]

Hi all

I have been discussing this with many people who have both lived in Thailand and have traveled there. The overwhelming response is that Thai people are not at all Buddhist. I have no doubt they think they are Buddhist, but I think this comes back to them just doing what they are told. The local population is indoctrinated to a level well beyond China (where I have lived for 5 years) and tend to believe what those in power tell them eg. never lost a war.

On top of this, Thai's inclusive of the monks have no idea about what Buddhism is. I am not talking about different interpretations which are fine, But as I said on another thread, I had the abbot of a temple tell me that Buddha was the god that created the universe, before coming to live among his followers in Thailand, meditating till he passes before resurrecting and floating up into the clouds to heaven. <deleted>. Sadly all the other monks just sat there nodding. None knew that Buddhism is not a religion. Buddhists also don't believe in Ghosts.

I was having lunch with with a nice monk in Chiang Mai who told me he had never read any of Buddhas writings, but he could do over 200 chants. He did this while eating in the afternoon a delicious serve of kai yang. He seemed to not really know about the messages or aims despite being a monk for 9 years.

I spent a fair bit of time doing volunteer work in Tibet where I stayed at a temple and asked about Buddhism in Thailand. The response was that those not following the precepts could not consider themselves Buddhist, I think they thought to do so would be considered quite insulting.

Looking at the precepts for lay people to compare to most of Thai society

1) I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures - Try finding a vegetarian here including the monks. Then we have cock fighting which is popular all over Thailand. Finally, Thailand has one of the highest gun murder rates in the world (10 times the US). FAIL

2) I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given - Where to begin here but one word should be an auto fail for most Thai's, CORRUPTION. FAIL

3) I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct. - When you ask most people to say the first thing that comes to mind about Thailand, Prostitution is mostly the answer and rightly so. Prostitution is so ingrained in the culture here that any morals cease to exist. I had a teacher at a school tell me that 12 year old Burmese sex slaves are ok as Thai men are entitled to them. Remember most prostitution has nothing to do with foreigners here. FAIL

4) I undertake the precept to refrain from faulty speech. - I consider myself well traveled having been to over 50 countries but I have never been anywhere where people openly lie as they do here. I realise this is often about face, but the point stands FAIL

5) I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which impairs the function of my body and mind - Try finding a Thai that does not drink, including the monks, yaba is so common, even in schools and coffee and tea are also included in this list FAIL

As can be seen here, not even the monks are close to being considered lay Buddhists. It is hard to think of a society that is less Buddhist than this one

Thoughts?

Hopefully this will be a real discussion that can be discussed as adults. I would love to know where you think I am wrong or right on the above points.

If so I will load why Thai monks deserve no respect as well

cheers

[Som wat]

Oh it's a Buddhist country.

Just not many actual Buddhists in it.

[Som wat]

Thoughts?

Thailand isn't for you.

[Eliot Rosewater]

Sunni muslims say shiites are not muslim

Same thing

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[TimCM]

Thoughts?

Thailand isn't for you.

Why, I am not Buddhist, just observation.

Would you care to add something of value to the discussion

[TimCM]

Sunni muslims say shiites are not muslim

Same thing

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

No problems with different views of Buddism eg Japan or China, Catholic or Protestant, but this is like comparing a Muslim to a Pastafarian

[A1Str8]

Theoretically it is.

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[Amavel]

There is no "My Buddhism is better than your Buddhism" The lessons are interpreted and lived, dependent upon the reader. I took vows in the Sakya teaching of Tibetan Buddhism and my wife is Thai Buddhist. Both of our beliefs also contain remnants of both her Isaan upbringing and my Pacific Northwest American background. The Buddha knew His lessons would be interpreted differently by region and taught lessons accordingly.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[TimCM]

There is no "My Buddhism is better than your Buddhism" The lessons are interpreted and lived, dependent upon the reader. I took vows in the Sakya teaching of Tibetan Buddhism and my wife is Thai Buddhist. Both of our beliefs also contain remnants of both her Isaan upbringing and my Pacific Northwest American background. The Buddha knew His lessons would be interpreted differently by region and taught lessons accordingly.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I agree with you.

My point is Buddhism is about how you live your life, not what you believe as it is not a religion.

What are your thoughts on how people live their lives here by the followings of the Buddha, which the philosophies can certainly be interpreted however people like?

Your post is about another point which I doubt anyone would disagree with including me

[Som wat]

Sunni muslims say shiites are not muslim

Same thing

I fail to see how a whining burnt-out non-Buddhist farang whining that Thais aren't Buddhists, is the same as Sunni muslims saying Shiites aren't muslims.

[Som wat]

Sunni muslims say shiites are not muslim

Same thing

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

No problems with different views of Buddism eg Japan or China, Catholic or Protestant, but this is like comparing a Muslim to a Pastafarian

You're indepth knowledge is obviously immense.

[Fookhaht]

Theoretically it is.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Theoretically, it is NOT.

Thailand does not have a "state religion," speaking in the legal, constitutional sense. This became a big issue about 6 years ago, when there was a movement in Buddhism to get the government to enact legislation/constitutional changes to make it the state religion. Google it.

That being said, in practicality, Thailand is no more Buddhist than England is Anglican Christian. Both countries & populace only give lip-service.

[healthbkkbkk]

Thailand is as Buddhist as any Christian country is really Christian.

How many Christians have really read the Bible?

How many Buddhist actually follow the eight fold path?

I have known quite a few Thais who truly practice their religion. They are kind and honest and help others. They are educated in their religion. They know Gautama is not G_D and they do not pray to him.

I have also known many Thais who know nothing about Buddhism other than to do merit making once in a while and pray to Buddha when things get difficult.

It's the same with Christians and Muslims in Thailand or in the Occident. Some are educated in their religion and practice what they believe while others simply imitate whatever their parents did, go to church or Mosque once in a while and pray when they fear something.

In my unqualified opinion People are People anywhere one goes.

[healthbkkbkk]

There is no "My Buddhism is better than your Buddhism" The lessons are interpreted and lived, dependent upon the reader. I took vows in the Sakya teaching of Tibetan Buddhism and my wife is Thai Buddhist. Both of our beliefs also contain remnants of both her Isaan upbringing and my Pacific Northwest American background. The Buddha knew His lessons would be interpreted differently by region and taught lessons accordingly.

I don't quite understand that last statement.

Edited May 2, 2014 by healthbkkbkk

[RandomSand]

Thailand is a Buddhist country and Buddhism is a religion. Simple as that.

[fabianfred]

Certainly there is much ignorance about the true teachings, in both lay people and monks. I would guess 90% of monks and novices do not really bother to practice as they should. Since they are the ones who teach the lay people then chaos follows. There are some very good monks and temples though, and many good teachers, and their followers do know and practice correctly, but the vast majority of Thais do not bother to read much.

It is all a part of the predicted deterioration. In a couple of hundred years Buddhism will probably disappear from Thailand.

[sirineou]

and we are off to the races

If the OP wanted to know if "Thailand was a Buddhist country" all he had to do was Google it.

I suspect what he want's to do is start an other "why Thais are so bad" thread.

[TimCM]

Thailand is a Buddhist country and Buddhism is a religion. Simple as that.

From the oxford dictionary

Religion - The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods:

ideas about the relationship between science and religion

As the Buddha was not a god, Buddhism can not be a religion. As for Thailand being a religion, the point of this thread was to be able to discuss it. Just making a statement without proof does not make it fact.

Buddhism is a philosophy about how you live your life, could I get your thoughts on how it relates to the opening post please?

[TimCM]

Thailand is as Buddhist as any Christian country is really Christian.

How many Christians have really read the Bible?

How many Buddhist actually follow the eight fold path?

I have known quite a few Thais who truly practice their religion. They are kind and honest and help others. They are educated in their religion. They know Gautama is not G_D and they do not pray to him.

I have also known many Thais who know nothing about Buddhism other than to do merit making once in a while and pray to Buddha when things get difficult.

It's the same with Christians and Muslims in Thailand or in the Occident. Some are educated in their religion and practice what they believe while others simply imitate whatever their parents did, go to church or Mosque once in a while and pray when they fear something.

In my unqualified opinion People are People anywhere one goes.

Thank you for addressing my original post, I feel the same way that people are the way they are. I don't think any belief system makes you a good or bad person and that was not my point. I was talking about what makes someone a Buddhist and if the people from Thailand could be considered as such.

I also realise that many people here know that Buddha was a person (wise and caring), and his was a philosophy about how to live your life, hence why your actions are what determines if you are a follower of Buddhism. As for Christians not knowing whats in their bible and not acting by the teachings in it, I agree totally, but Christianity is based on belief in a god, not what your actions are. This just determines whether they are good or bad Christians, something I don't care to judge people about as long as they are not causing harm to others.

[RandomSand]

Thailand is a Buddhist country and Buddhism is a religion. Simple as that.

From the oxford dictionary

Religion - The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods:

ideas about the relationship between science and religion

As the Buddha was not a god, Buddhism can not be a religion. As for Thailand being a religion, the point of this thread was to be able to discuss it. Just making a statement without proof does not make it fact.

Buddhism is a philosophy about how you live your life, could I get your thoughts on how it relates to the opening post please?

Jhana is fundamentally pantheistic. The Dharma of this fundamental truth is protected by King Bhumibol Adulyadej as modus operandi under which Thailand functions.

Like Christianity has "followers" or congregation, Buddhism has Sangha. If you want to tie yourself up in knots over superficial distinctions, be my guest.

Edited May 3, 2014 by RandomSand

[RandomSand]

Buddhism is a philosophy about how you live your life,..

Are you a follower of this "philosophy" ?

Edited May 3, 2014 by RandomSand

[TimCM]

Buddhism is a philosophy about how you live your life,..

Are you a follower of this "philosophy" ?

Actually I am not a follower as I tend to have some different values than those of the Buddha. A lot of it I do agree with though.

As discussed earlier, I find all religions and spiritual philosophies interesting from an anthropological perspective and although I am an atheist, I wold hate to see belief in spirituality die out.

My simple philosophy is you are a good person if you try to not harm others and if the world was more like that, what a place it would become.

I was hoping to have a discussion on the topic but as you can see from some of the posters (not you of coarse), many are unable to discuss such things as adults. Note no one has confirmed or refuted my points on the precepts yet despite the number of replies whereas I have had many great discussions in other countries about many belief systems.

RandomSand do you think you can be a Buddhist if you don't even try to follow any of the rules set out by Buddha? This is a general question, not for you personally as I can see you have a good understanding of the topic

Thanks

[healthbkkbkk]

Buddhism is a philosophy about how you live your life,..

Are you a follower of this "philosophy" ?

RandomSand do you think you can be a Buddhist if you don't even try to follow any of the rules set out by Buddha?

Thanks

In Western Philosophy Socrates is generally given the laureates for developing the idea that if one truly believes then one practices what they believe. Can someone be a Christian if they do not follow the instructions of Jesus? Can someone be a Buddhist if they do not follow the rules? In other words one practices what one really believes so if one's practice does not correspond to the precepts of the religion one claims to belong to is one really a member of that religion?

[fabianfred]

I posted this on another thread... but also think it is relevant here...

A friend on Facebook posted this.... sad but met all too often...

Its interesting to me, as a Buddhist practitioner, studying Pali, Thai, chanting and practicing meditation, choosing to live a quiet life, trying to be aware of and avoid the many pitfalls of our modern culture, and step by step removing myself from the things of this materialistic, indulgent and miss-guided society, how many people say to me,"I hope you find what you are searching for"! While I accept their comment with the kindness and sincerity with which it is spoken, the response that immediately comes to mind is, "I am not searching for anything"! But I refrain! That would be unkind.

In the logical, psychologically sound and liberating teachings of the Buddha I have found what I was searching for! The search ended some time ago, after many years of reading, studying, analyzing and applying the teachings to my daily life and seeing, experientially, the benefits and positive changes in my emotional state and my ever growing sense of freedom. Those changes enable me to respect myself more than ever, to know myself as never before and to grow sufficiently in the confidence of self and Buddha's teachings, to make some major life changes and be true to myself. I now live more honestly, more openly and more authentically than ever! I know the path I am on, and, as difficult as it often is, and I am sure will continue to be, nothing in my 48 years has ever felt, or more importantly proven to be so right. I could talk about a life of searching, for "truth" and meaning, about the many paths I have walked and indeed about my regret that I did not find such wonderful insights and liberation in my earlier years, but that would be futile! The past is past! We are who we are, in most part, because of our up bringing and life's experiences, and, at least in my belief, our Kamma. All three form a part of our current understanding and life view, are a part of our personality and will determine our future. I have written many times that my life has been VERY rich in experience and I choose to accept it all, good and bad, allow it to stay in the past and focus on today; the here and now.

Recently, in a Buddhist temple, I met a seventy three year old man. He was kind and generous and while chatting he told me that his mother had first taken him to the Buddhist temple, in his home country of Malaysia, when he was only seven years old. He knew all of the chants, the protocol and how to perform the various rituals. He could tell me about all of the Buddhist festivals and special Buddha days that are celebrated through out the year and he could cook delicious Thai food. He seemed quite jolly and, except for the obvious feeling of loneliness that I perceived in him and his conversation, seemed quite free. Then, after asking about me, my life, my work and my home, he asked, with genuine curiosity tinged with an obvious lack of understanding, "why would you want to give up all of that and live as a monk"?

Immediately my heart sank and I realized that after nearly seventy years of attending the temple, living in Buddhist company, befriending and socializing with Buddhist monks, burning incense, lighting candles, bowing reverently, he had no concept of the teachings of Lord Buddha. I expressed the delight, peace, wisdom and freedom that I have found in the teachings and how, in some ways, contrary to my "desires", the next step on the path, for me, has to be ordination! In my opinion and indeed experience, if we believe something to be true and have confidence in that, and live in a manner contrary to our beliefs, one is left wanting, discontented, unfulfilled, confused and NOT true to self. After just a few sentences, he confessed that his daughter, raised as a Buddhist, had become a Muslim and now lived a fundamental life as a Muslim wife and could only visit him with her husbands permission, his son had become a Bible preaching evangelical christian who had denied his own father because of his fathers perceived "idol worship", his wife lived in China, as did one of his current girl friends and that he was beginning another relationship with an asian lady in his country of residence. He said that he had friends and acquaintances who were interested in Buddhism and often asked him about it. Some he said, showed great interest and had even asked to go with him to the temple, but he said that he could not explain to any of them what Buddhism is! It was obvious that the dear man had never applied any of the teachings and practice to his daily life, he has never tasted the freedom or seen the sweet fruit that grows from that practice. He said that when he was younger, he could sit in the meditation position for many hours, yet had never known inner peace, tranquility or been able to calm his incessant self chatter. He still, at seventy three years of age, looks for happiness and fulfillment in his wife and sexual partners, expressing a great deal of stress over his finances, his complicated relationships and his fear of dying. Throughout the day it became very apparent that he was hungry for approval, for company and for praise. "Can it be true"?, I asked myself, " that after a life time of considering himself Buddhist, attending temple and spending many, many hours in the company of ordained people, he was still so ignorant? Had he never asked for help with meditation? Was help never offered"? The truth is, he seemed totally oblivious to the idea of inner transformation and even less so, of the life changes, freedom and wisdom promised in the Buddha's teachings and the 'Noble Eightfold Path', offered to us as a path to Nibbana, should we CHOOSE to follow it and apply the teachings.

Yesterday, in the temple in Barcelona, two young Thai ladies came to offer food to the monks. They are medical students from Bangkok and are here in Barcelona on an exchange program. They both spoke excellent English, are obviously intelligent young ladies, wore the finest and very fashionable clothes, carried iPhones, designer purses and smelled of expensive perfume. They were respectful and after presenting their food to the monk and chatting with him for a short time, sat next to me to eat. We exchanged pleasantries, them speaking in English and me trying to speak in Thai. The monk told them that I had ordained as a Novice monk in Thailand and that my intention was to continue on that path and take full ordination. While maintaining the polite exterior, typical of most Thais, with a joining of the palms and a "sadu, sadu sadu", the amusement and curiosity of the one lady was more than evident. She asked if I had a Thai wife or girlfriend. She asked why I was interested in Buddhism and again, like the gentle man from a few weeks ago, revealed a complete lack of knowledge regarding Buddhism. She almost proudly announced, "we are young! And now in Thailand, the younger, educated people no longer show interest in this"! She said that she knew how " fashionable" Buddhism had become in the West and said that she understood why I would have become a part of that, quote, "spiritual fashion".

Again my heart sank! Here was a smart, beautiful and articulate young lady. She called herself Buddhist, and had even come to visit the temple and pay respect, yet she prided herself in her academic and materialistic way of life, more interested in talking about her world travels and time in America than in Dhamma and, unashamedly said that Buddhism was, in Thailand, for the older people and the poor! I politely said nothing! A booklet I read many years ago, titled, 'Educated Fools' came to mind. I also remembered something the Buddha said, "the wise will know for themselves"! Bored with the conversation, pride and obvious self importance of the one young lady and deciding that my reason for being at the temple was to learn and practice, I wished her happiness and success and left to continue my studies. The second lady, much more gentle and not expressing as many opinions, politely raised her hands together and wished me good luck in my life and ordination.

[rockyysdt]

I posted this on another thread... but also think it is relevant here...

Immediately my heart sank and I realized that after nearly seventy years of attending the temple, living in Buddhist company, befriending and socializing with Buddhist monks, burning incense, lighting candles, bowing reverently, he had no concept of the teachings of Lord Buddha. I expressed the delight, peace, wisdom and freedom that I have found in the teachings and how, in some ways, contrary to my "desires", the next step on the path, for me, has to be ordination! In my opinion and indeed experience, if we believe something to be true and have confidence in that, and live in a manner contrary to our beliefs, one is left wanting, discontented, unfulfilled, confused and NOT true to self. Throughout the day it became very apparent that he was hungry for approval, for company and for praise. "Can it be true"?, I asked myself, " that after a life time of considering himself Buddhist, attending temple and spending many, many hours in the company of ordained people, he was still so ignorant? Had he never asked for help with meditation? Was help never offered"? The truth is, he seemed totally oblivious to the idea of inner transformation and even less so, of the life changes, freedom and wisdom promised in the Buddha's teachings and the 'Noble Eightfold Path', offered to us as a path to Nibbana, should we CHOOSE to follow it and apply the teachings.

Again my heart sank! Here was a smart, beautiful and articulate young lady. She called herself Buddhist, and had even come to visit the temple and pay respect, yet she prided herself in her academic and materialistic way of life, more interested in talking about her world travels and time in America than in Dhamma and, unashamedly said that Buddhism was, in Thailand, for the older people and the poor! I politely said nothing! A booklet I read many years ago, titled, 'Educated Fools' came to mind. I also remembered something the Buddha said, "the wise will know for themselves"! Bored with the conversation, pride and obvious self importance of the one young lady and deciding that my reason for being at the temple was to learn and practice, I wished her happiness and success and left to continue my studies. The second lady, much more gentle and not expressing as many opinions, politely raised her hands together and wished me good luck in my life and ordination.

What you describe are two examples of individuals lost in "culture/custom".

Learned behavior pattern/s associated with members of a society, nation, ethnic, religious, age, gender, or other group.

Many of these learned behaviors may have come about due to many reasons and can evolve causing them to have little bearing on their initial meaning.

We are all conditioned by custom and culture.

Escape can be very difficult.

I'm surrounded by all manner of groups steeped in custom and tradition with behaviors having little bearing on their original meaning or purpose.

Such things as:

Atheists eating fish on Fridays.

Non believers observing Easter & giving Easter Eggs.

The educated fearing black cats and avoiding walking under a ladder.

Proclaimed Buddhists observing ritual and custom with no idea what the Buddha taught.

Abstaining from the consumption of shellfish or pork.

Killing a bride if one has proof she is not a virgin.

Treating women as being inferior.

The world is littered with examples.

It's a pity that "cultural" Buddhists are allowed to call themselves Buddhists.

Their conditioned behavior has little bearing on the eightfold path, their behavior deters many from investigating the validity of what was really taught.

Even the Buddha himself never coined the phrase Buddhism/ist.

Edited May 4, 2014 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

Note no one has confirmed or refuted my points on the precepts yet despite the number of replies whereas I have had many great discussions in other countries about many belief systems.

RandomSand do you think you can be a Buddhist if you don't even try to follow any of the rules set out by Buddha? This is a general question, not for you personally as I can see you have a good understanding of the topic.

Defining who is a Buddhist is always going to be a personal opinion. IMO, 95% of Thais call themselves Buddhists, believe in the law of karma, believe they will be reborn in another realm according to their actions/karma, believe they will one day attain nirvana, and believe that observing the lay precepts result in a better rebirth, so it's reasonable to call them Buddhists. Virtually every Thai gives to the Sangha as recommended in the suttas. Virtually every male spends at least a few weeks in the monkhood in his life. So I think it's reasonable to say Thailand is a Buddhist country.

The 5 lay precepts are not mandatory rules. They are guidelines for the relief of suffering and attaining nirvana. If you follow them only a little, you only get partial relief from suffering. It's your choice. Obviously, you are a "better" Buddhist if you try to follow them all. I have many Thai friends who do try to follow them all.

There are several good books on Thai Buddhism in Thailand written by anthropologists. Basically, the typical Thai villager/farmer feels that several of the precepts are just too difficult to keep.

1. It's impossible not to kill animals, because that's how villagers get their protein and how they grow successful crops. They can't buy their meat at the supermarket like we can. The Buddha never advocated vegetarianism in the Pali Canon. He ate meat himself, as did his monks. While vegetarianism is desirable, it's only mandatory for Mahayana Buddhists.

2. Most Thais are not "corrupt" and corruption is not always theft.

3. The precept doesn't deal directly with prostitution. According to Harvey's Introduction to Buddhist Ethics, the emphasis is on a man not sleeping with a woman in a relationship with another man. Also it's about not sleeping with a woman under the protection of someone (like parents). But this is a big topic and we've covered it before in the forum. Even if the precept did apply to sleeping with a prostitute, let's suppose 50% of Thai men do this regularly and 100% of Thai women don't, that leaves 75% of the total population who keep the precept.

4. According to what I've read (the Buddha talking to Rahula about lying etc), false speech means the type of lying that causes others to mistrust you, not to white lies like telling the wife you like her radical new haircut. As for Right Speech, I think everyone finds this difficult.

5. This is another big topic we've discussed before. According to the anthropologists and Thais I've talked to, villagers feel that after a hard day's work this is the (only) way to relax and wind down. However, very few monks drink. In my experience, up until the last 10 or 15 years, most Thai women did not drink at all. So there's 50% of the population that were keeping the precept for a start. IMO, it would be hard to argue that coffee and tea should be covered by the precept. Sure, there are far too many people taking drugs these days, but its a small percentage of the whole population.

[VincentRJ]

The subject of this thread reminds me of a famous quote by Mahatma Gandhi. “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

Speaking for myself, I was raised in a Christian society, (although never a Christian) and remember at an early age listening to the Sunday School teacher tell stories about the gentle Jesus who exhorted people to be like children and to love their neighbours and even love their enemies.

Later, as a teenager at school, I learned how the Catholic Church had persecuted Galileo for daring to express his opinion that the earth revolves around the sun. To avoid being burnt at the stake he had to denounce his own work and he was placed under house arrest for the rest of his life.

I also learned about other much worse atrocities committed by the Christian authorities around this time of the Inquisition, and of the great wars initiated by previous Popes.

The following extract from an account by Raymond d’Aguiliers, chaplain to Count Raymond of Toulouse who led one of the two French armies in the Crusades, describes how terrifyingly awful and brutal the violence could be in those days, committed in the name of Christianity.

"Wonderful sights were to be seen. Some of our men cut off the heads of their enemies… others tortured them longer by casting them into the flames. Piles of heads, hands, and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. It was necessary to pick one's way over the bodies of men and horses. … men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins. Indeed, it was a just and splendid judgment of God that this place should be filled with the blood of the unbelievers. (in Krey, 1921: 260)

How on earth can any reasonable and rational person reconcile such behaviour with the principles taught by Jesus Christ?

The sorts of answers that occurs to me are (1) the people initiating such actions were merely pretending to be Christians in order to more easily manipulate others to achieve their own power-hungry goals, (2) those involved in such actions who actually believed they were Christians were either extraordinarily ignorant and unthinking, and/or were in a complete state of head-in-the-sand denial, (3) there are fundamental instincts of survival in humanity which, for most of us, with the exception of a few sages and saints, are more powerful than any religious doctrine.

Similar atrocities have been committed in the name of other religions, such as Islam, but I get the impression that Buddhism is relatively free from such atrocities, but not completely free of course. The recent atrocities committed against Moslems in Myanmar is an example of behaviour which I find surprisingly out of character for Buddhists.

[healthbkkbkk]

Note no one has confirmed or refuted my points on the precepts yet despite the number of replies whereas I have had many great discussions in other countries about many belief systems.

RandomSand do you think you can be a Buddhist if you don't even try to follow any of the rules set out by Buddha? This is a general question, not for you personally as I can see you have a good understanding of the topic.

Defining who is a Buddhist is always going to be a personal opinion. IMO, 95% of Thais call themselves Buddhists, believe in the law of karma, believe they will be reborn in another realm according to their actions/karma, believe they will one day attain nirvana, and believe that observing the lay precepts result in a better rebirth, so it's reasonable to call them Buddhists. Virtually every Thai gives to the Sangha as recommended in the suttas. Virtually every male spends at least a few weeks in the monkhood in his life. So I think it's reasonable to say Thailand is a Buddhist country.

The 5 lay precepts are not mandatory rules. They are guidelines for the relief of suffering and attaining nirvana. If you follow them only a little, you only get partial relief from suffering. It's your choice. Obviously, you are a "better" Buddhist if you try to follow them all. I have many Thai friends who do try to follow them all.

There are several good books on Thai Buddhism in Thailand written by anthropologists. Basically, the typical Thai villager/farmer feels that several of the precepts are just too difficult to keep.

1. It's impossible not to kill animals, because that's how villagers get their protein and how they grow successful crops. They can't buy their meat at the supermarket like we can. The Buddha never advocated vegetarianism in the Pali Canon. He ate meat himself, as did his monks. While vegetarianism is desirable, it's only mandatory for Mahayana Buddhists.

2. Most Thais are not "corrupt" and corruption is not always theft.

3. The precept doesn't deal directly with prostitution. According to Harvey's Introduction to Buddhist Ethics, the emphasis is on a man not sleeping with a woman in a relationship with another man. Also it's about not sleeping with a woman under the protection of someone (like parents). But this is a big topic and we've covered it before in the forum. Even if the precept did apply to sleeping with a prostitute, let's suppose 50% of Thai men do this regularly and 100% of Thai women don't, that leaves 75% of the total population who keep the precept.

4. According to what I've read (the Buddha talking to Rahula about lying etc), false speech means the type of lying that causes others to mistrust you, not to white lies like telling the wife you like her radical new haircut. As for Right Speech, I think everyone finds this difficult.

5. This is another big topic we've discussed before. According to the anthropologists and Thais I've talked to, villagers feel that after a hard day's work this is the (only) way to relax and wind down. However, very few monks drink. In my experience, up until the last 10 or 15 years, most Thai women did not drink at all. So there's 50% of the population that were keeping the precept for a start. IMO, it would be hard to argue that coffee and tea should be covered by the precept. Sure, there are far too many people taking drugs these days, but its a small percentage of the whole population.

I'm sorry to say and I don't want an argument but your post is so wrong in so many ways.

[camerata]

So let's hear your reasoning. This is a discussion forum, after all. We all have our opinions.

[healthbkkbkk]

So let's hear your reasoning. This is a discussion forum, after all. We all have our opinions.

It's not good form to argue about religion so believe whatever you like.

My assistant is sitting next to me and her brother is a Ranking Monk in Thailand (I have deep love for him). She read your post, shook her head and mumbled something about "farrang".

Buddha ate meat?

Most Thai ladies didn't drink alcohol a certain number of years ago?

Prostitutes not covered in the rules?

Corruption not always theft?

You obviously know nothing about Buddhism and nothing about Thailand.

Your post is so ridiculous that I feel dirty from replying to you.