Unfriendly Farangs

[GunterChiangMai]

Yeah, I've noticed the same. There's quite a few farangs who will say hi or whatever at the grocery store, but many will try to avoid you like the plague.

I actually find it kind of sad. Us Westerners in Thailand make for a pitiful example of immigrants. You go to a large multi-cultural city out West, say Toronto, and you'll notice the immigrants of each nationality all somewhat stick together, and help each other out. If you're from say Turkey and just off the plane, you can goto "Little Istanbul" or where ever the Turks hang out, and you'll easily find fellow Turks to talk to, and help you get settled. If needed, help you get a residence, bank account, SIN#, job, whatever.

Like you said; immigrants of each nationality. I tend to only associate with Americans, Canadians and Australians as I can relate to them easily. Europeans and British are just so different that the only similarity we share is white skin. I'm friendly but just feel indifferent towards strangers and what common interests do we have?

I find a lot of immigrants here to be somewhat from the lower spectrum of success in their home country while I'm driven and motivated to

work hard.

Please don't assume the British are Europeans. They are British!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Soutpeel]

I used to be pretty out going towards most farangs I came across when I first came here, these days I try and stay away from "random" farangs as typically they want something off you or are mentally unhinged in some respect, I can could the number of farangs I associate with on one hand and its going to stay that way.

[petermik]

^ Actually, most gays are usually quite particular about their hygiene.

Talking from your own personal experiences then

[marcusd]

mate, there are always those that think they are above everyone else and that their sh*t dont stink.You probably arent wearing trendy enough clothes for them, strangely enough most around here will smile and acknowledge you but if they dont I dont really give a rats, they arent worth it anyway. They probably wouldnt realize if their ar*e was on fire with their noses that far up in the air, I find "well f*** you too" generally gets a look or if in close proximity "did you fart or just sh*t yourself", especially if others are around, bit of embarrasment does wonders.

they go,to,the gym to tone their flabby old bodies thinking they are sexy. Preening to,other men and then,you have the f...n hide to say or think,people are gay for doing so?

Get a bloody life.

There is absolutely no need to be impolite or rude to,your fellows at the gym.

Even if the guy is gay, I bet 100% he wont want YOU. we have taste.

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

[SoiBiker]

I didn't say hello to every random I bumped into before I lived here. Why would I start now?

[thailiketoo]

I used to be pretty out going towards most farangs I came across when I first came here, these days I try and stay away from "random" farangs as typically they want something off you or are mentally unhinged in some respect, I can could the number of farangs I associate with on one hand and its going to stay that way.

I agree with you. Can you imagine a bloke walking into a pub and saying, "I find a lot of immigrants here to be somewhat from the lower spectrum of success in their home country while I'm driven and motivated to work hard. Is there any of you that are worthy enough for me to speak to?"

[marcusd]

In my culture whenever one enters a lift one looks at everyone in the eye and says hello and everyone says hello back.

The same when we enter a room in a public place. The rules of politeness are very strict and almost everyone respects them.

When I first arrived in Thailand I did the same as I would in my culture and this caused me years of misery.

I know someone will insult me for saying this but I will say it all the same:

There are so many farrang pedophiles, cheap whore chasers, drunks, fakes, perverts and the mentally ill I avoid contact with any foreigner until i know who/what they are.

My ex wife and I knew a very nice, cultured British gentleman. He seemed to be the best of people so we wondered why he would take such a pay cut to work in Thailand when he had such a successful life in Britain.

One night we stopped for a late dinner at an all night restaurant in Siam Square and in the corner, in the dark was this man and he was being intimate with a 16 year old boy. We then understood why he was here.

There have been so many disappointments, so many times stabbed in the back, so much pain that I finally accepted to do what most other Europeans do here and not make contact until I know enough about the other farrang.

All those who like to pretend that all is perfect here may now feel free to throw their insults.

My god that would freak me out. What culture says hello to everyone in the elevator?

friendly Australians.

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

[marcusd]

In my culture whenever one enters a lift one looks at everyone in the eye and says hello and everyone says hello back.

The same when we enter a room in a public place. The rules of politeness are very strict and almost everyone respects them.

When I first arrived in Thailand I did the same as I would in my culture and this caused me years of misery.

I know someone will insult me for saying this but I will say it all the same:

There are so many farrang pedophiles, cheap whore chasers, drunks, fakes, perverts and the mentally ill I avoid contact with any foreigner until i know who/what they are.

My ex wife and I knew a very nice, cultured British gentleman. He seemed to be the best of people so we wondered why he would take such a pay cut to work in Thailand when he had such a successful life in Britain.

One night we stopped for a late dinner at an all night restaurant in Siam Square and in the corner, in the dark was this man and he was being intimate with a 16 year old boy. We then understood why he was here.

There have been so many disappointments, so many times stabbed in the back, so much pain that I finally accepted to do what most other Europeans do here and not make contact until I know enough about the other farrang.

All those who like to pretend that all is perfect here may now feel free to throw their insults.

My god that would freak me out. What culture says hello to everyone in the elevator?

In my culture it would seen more as a bit rude to speak to unknown people without reason.....I would also like to know which friendly culture is greeting everyone? Maybe a friendly place for holidays....

stay where you are. Better for us all.

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

[thailiketoo]

Ah ! The Miserable Git Brigade. Seems to be rather large numbers of them here. Karma gets 'em in the end though; we had one in our village who would never speak a word to anyone and suddenly he got very ill and went into Hospital....nobody except his wife visited him. He then died and his wife had to go around begging the neighbours to go to his funeral because there were no mourners.

Ya, I bet he was really upset no one showed up at his funeral.

[Soutpeel]

I used to be pretty out going towards most farangs I came across when I first came here, these days I try and stay away from "random" farangs as typically they want something off you or are mentally unhinged in some respect, I can could the number of farangs I associate with on one hand and its going to stay that way.

I agree with you. Can you imagine a bloke walking into a pub and saying, "I find a lot of immigrants here to be somewhat from the lower spectrum of success in their home country while I'm driven and motivated to work hard. Is there any of you that are worthy enough for me to speak to?"

One suspects the person concerned will be sitting in the corner on his own sipping his baby cham

I think the issue is a "whitey" comes to Thailand and expects all the other "whities" they come acrosd to treat them like long lost relatives

Edited May 4, 2014 by Soutpeel

[healthbkkbkk]

In my culture whenever one enters a lift one looks at everyone in the eye and says hello and everyone says hello back.

The same when we enter a room in a public place. The rules of politeness are very strict and almost everyone respects them.

When I first arrived in Thailand I did the same as I would in my culture and this caused me years of misery.

I know someone will insult me for saying this but I will say it all the same:

There are so many farrang pedophiles, cheap whore chasers, drunks, fakes, perverts and the mentally ill I avoid contact with any foreigner until i know who/what they are.

My ex wife and I knew a very nice, cultured British gentleman. He seemed to be the best of people so we wondered why he would take such a pay cut to work in Thailand when he had such a successful life in Britain.

One night we stopped for a late dinner at an all night restaurant in Siam Square and in the corner, in the dark was this man and he was being intimate with a 16 year old boy. We then understood why he was here.

There have been so many disappointments, so many times stabbed in the back, so much pain that I finally accepted to do what most other Europeans do here and not make contact until I know enough about the other farrang.

All those who like to pretend that all is perfect here may now feel free to throw their insults.

.

Jus curious. How on earth did you and or your wife know the boy was 16?

Simply amazing.

But good for you and the ex wife!

What's amazing is someone like you making ridiculous comments without realizing it.

16 was a polite way to say a young boy, under aged, illegal, unacceptable and impossible to get away with in London.

Maybe he was 13? You happy?

Simply amazing but I knew someone like you would come up with an insult which begs to wonder about your attitudes towards "boys". Would you like to explain your “norms”?

I personally think that Men and Boys should not be intimate with each other. I know that this somehow makes me an intolerant fascist but hey, that's the way I am.

As such conduct is illegal in Thailand I don't feel the need to apologize to anyone for my condemnation of his behavior.

Now please explain your tolerant views on the subject.

[watcharacters]

.

Somehow I question the replies I read so far on this thread.

What is it?

Unfriendliness or general uneasiness about one's self? Who knows?

A simple greeting is just that. HELLO is international.

[thailiketoo]

What's amazing is someone like you making ridiculous comments without realizing it.

16 was a polite way to say a young boy, under aged, illegal, unacceptable and impossible to get away with in London.

Maybe he was 13? You happy?

Simply amazing but I knew someone like you would come up with an insult which begs to wonder about your attitudes towards "boys". Would you like to explain your “norms”?

I personally think that Men and Boys should not be intimate with each other. I know that this somehow makes me an intolerant fascist but hey, that's the way I am.

As such conduct is illegal in Thailand I don't feel the need to apologize to anyone for my condemnation of his behavior.

Now please explain your tolerant views on the subject.

Right you are. Never happen in London.

BBC Scandal Exposes Cover-Up of Host Jimmy Savile’s Pedophilia, Fueling Public Broadcaster’s Foes

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/13/bbc_scandal_exposes_cover_up_of

You wrote, "As such conduct is illegal in Thailand I don't feel the need to apologize to anyone for my condemnation of his behavior." No offense but isn't also illegal to watch such conduct in Thailand?

Edited May 4, 2014 by thailiketoo

[culicine]

I don't get this. Would you also expect random Thais to greet you in the gym too? They are just seeing you as another person. I see enough farangs at my work each day; don't need to meet and greet any more:) This isn't the 1950's either. people are too caught up in their own little worlds to see what's going on around them.

[healthbkkbkk]

In my culture whenever one enters a lift one looks at everyone in the eye and says hello and everyone says hello back.

The same when we enter a room in a public place. The rules of politeness are very strict and almost everyone respects them.

When I first arrived in Thailand I did the same as I would in my culture and this caused me years of misery.

I know someone will insult me for saying this but I will say it all the same:

There are so many farrang pedophiles, cheap whore chasers, drunks, fakes, perverts and the mentally ill I avoid contact with any foreigner until i know who/what they are.

My ex wife and I knew a very nice, cultured British gentleman. He seemed to be the best of people so we wondered why he would take such a pay cut to work in Thailand when he had such a successful life in Britain.

One night we stopped for a late dinner at an all night restaurant in Siam Square and in the corner, in the dark was this man and he was being intimate with a 16 year old boy. We then understood why he was here.

There have been so many disappointments, so many times stabbed in the back, so much pain that I finally accepted to do what most other Europeans do here and not make contact until I know enough about the other farrang.

All those who like to pretend that all is perfect here may now feel free to throw their insults.

My god that would freak me out. What culture says hello to everyone in the elevator?

In my culture it would seen more as a bit rude to speak to unknown people without reason.....I would also like to know which friendly culture is greeting everyone? Maybe a friendly place for holidays....

Maybe it's my poor writing skills or someone's poor reading skills, I don't know. I said we say hello to, I didn't say we speak to them.

"monsieur, mesdames" is what one is expected to say when one enters a lift or a public room. Those in the lift or room will respond with "monsieur" or "madame" depending on the greeter's gender. It is the general rule for public politeness just as we shake hands each morning with everyone in the office and will often shake hands with everyone when we leave for the evening. That isn't the Anglo way but not everyone on Earth is an Anglo. I have been told countless times by Brits that I am too polite yet in my culture I wouldn't be considered so. I have also noticed that Australians are very friendly and open people and tend to say Hi to just about anyone in earshot. They are so friendly I tend to feel inadequate around them.

The point of my mentioning it wasn't to say how one should behave in public but to explain my continuing the habit when I arrived in Thailand.

The point being that I honestly explained why I, and many Europeans I know, avoid contact with unknown farrangs and I believe that anyone who has lived here for a time knows this and pretending not to is disingenuous.

[watcharacters]

In my culture whenever one enters a lift one looks at everyone in the eye and says hello and everyone says hello back.

The same when we enter a room in a public place. The rules of politeness are very strict and almost everyone respects them.

When I first arrived in Thailand I did the same as I would in my culture and this caused me years of misery.

I know someone will insult me for saying this but I will say it all the same:

There are so many farrang pedophiles, cheap whore chasers, drunks, fakes, perverts and the mentally ill I avoid contact with any foreigner until i know who/what they are.

My ex wife and I knew a very nice, cultured British gentleman. He seemed to be the best of people so we wondered why he would take such a pay cut to work in Thailand when he had such a successful life in Britain.

One night we stopped for a late dinner at an all night restaurant in Siam Square and in the corner, in the dark was this man and he was being intimate with a 16 year old boy. We then understood why he was here.

There have been so many disappointments, so many times stabbed in the back, so much pain that I finally accepted to do what most other Europeans do here and not make contact until I know enough about the other farrang.

All those who like to pretend that all is perfect here may now feel free to throw their insults.

.

Jus curious. How on earth did you and or your wife know the boy was 16?

Simply amazing.

But good for you and the ex wife!

What's amazing is someone like you making ridiculous comments without realizing it.

16 was a polite way to say a young boy, under aged, illegal, unacceptable and impossible to get away with in London.

Maybe he was 13? You happy?

Simply amazing but I knew someone like you would come up with an insult which begs to wonder about your attitudes towards "boys". Would you like to explain your “norms”?

I personally think that Men and Boys should not be intimate with each other. I know that this somehow makes me an intolerant fascist but hey, that's the way I am.

As such conduct is illegal in Thailand I don't feel the need to apologize to anyone for my condemnation of his behavior.

Now please explain your tolerant views on the subject.

.

I'm going to politely answer you friend.

I merely asked you a question and I get something incredible back.

Your comment about age already implied someone did something inappropriate. I suspect you are not an expert on age verification in Southeast Asia. Is that true?

Please refrain from assertions which are unfounded as you just made toward me regarding age tolerance. Completely amazing!

You know nothing about me and we'll keep it like that. I'm finished with anything further you have to say. Remember if you speak loudly everybody knows how truly ignorant you really are. 555

[uptheos]

I've met a few nice guys in the gym, can't really say I've met anyone who bored the tits off me. Most people seem to just want to get on with what they're there for and as for being paranoid about gays.......if anyone fancies me I'll take that as a compliment.

In supermarkets most foreigners I see have wives/gf in tow or the other way around. As there is often a massive age gap, I think they prefer not to make eye contact as they are a little embarrassed, but hey that's their choice it's their life and it's not going to affect mine.

I had a quite attractive 22 year old with me last week in Tesco, but she was my step daughter visiting from Chula. I didn't even give it a thought what others might be thinking I was too busy enjoying my time with her as she has a great sense of humour. I'm quite sure when we were laughing and joking there was some miserable old git saying "look at that dirty old sod".......it's a funny old game.

[PDavies]

I don't really want anything to do with any westerner, and I would much prefer I were the only one here.

I'm polite and mumble something back, then I look the other way.

[larsjohnsson]

Maybe they don't speak or understand English. People from English speaking countries often assume everyone speak their language.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

In my culture whenever one enters a lift one looks at everyone in the eye and says hello and everyone says hello back.

The same when we enter a room in a public place. The rules of politeness are very strict and almost everyone respects them.

When I first arrived in Thailand I did the same as I would in my culture and this caused me years of misery.

I know someone will insult me for saying this but I will say it all the same:

There are so many farrang pedophiles, cheap whore chasers, drunks, fakes, perverts and the mentally ill I avoid contact with any foreigner until i know who/what they are.

My ex wife and I knew a very nice, cultured British gentleman. He seemed to be the best of people so we wondered why he would take such a pay cut to work in Thailand when he had such a successful life in Britain.

One night we stopped for a late dinner at an all night restaurant in Siam Square and in the corner, in the dark was this man and he was being intimate with a 16 year old boy. We then understood why he was here.

There have been so many disappointments, so many times stabbed in the back, so much pain that I finally accepted to do what most other Europeans do here and not make contact until I know enough about the other farrang.

All those who like to pretend that all is perfect here may now feel free to throw their insults.

.

Jus curious. How on earth did you and or your wife know the boy was 16?

Simply amazing.

But good for you and the ex wife!

Or son or stepson or wife's younger brother, etc.

[Unwisemonkey]

Like a lot of the other posters have said already... It's about the quality of foreigners here. Too many fakes. I've run into boiler room cons, Teachers that teach carnal knowledge, just downright scummery all around. I've been very selective about who I associate with in Thailand and it's paid off well for the most part. If you lie with dogs, you get fleas.

Plus the Gym is kind of a mans personal space. We work out for ourselves, If we have a spotter it's someone that we already trust and are on an intimate level with to some degree. You should respect that. IF you want to make foreign friends there are venues to do that. Some of the best foreigner I know have a church that I attend even though religion is not my cup of tea, and I've even volunteered with them when they are out doing charitable things.

[star kicker]

back home some people are friendly some people not.

some people are having a good day, some people are not

some people feel like chatting and shooting the breeze, some dont

same all over the world

nothing to do with thailand.

chill and appreciate it when someone does say HI

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Like a lot of the other posters have said already... It's about the quality of foreigners here. Too many fakes. I've run into boiler room cons, Teachers that teach carnal knowledge, just downright scummery all around. I've been very selective about who I associate with in Thailand and it's paid off well for the most part. If you lie with dogs, you get fleas.

Very true, I only have contact with foreigners who are fully funded, and here with legit VISAs.

The number of guys scraping a living, illegal or no VISA, bogus Ed VISAs, working without a work permit, drunks and minor criminals, 90%+. Go back to your home countries, you aren't my friends, nobody wants you here.

I didn't speak to strangers back in the USA, I certainly don't want to speak to strangers here.

Luckily I'm not white, so strange white guys trying to talk to me generally isn't a problem.

Edited May 4, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[healthbkkbkk]

In my culture whenever one enters a lift one looks at everyone in the eye and says hello and everyone says hello back.

The same when we enter a room in a public place. The rules of politeness are very strict and almost everyone respects them.

When I first arrived in Thailand I did the same as I would in my culture and this caused me years of misery.

I know someone will insult me for saying this but I will say it all the same:

There are so many farrang pedophiles, cheap whore chasers, drunks, fakes, perverts and the mentally ill I avoid contact with any foreigner until i know who/what they are.

My ex wife and I knew a very nice, cultured British gentleman. He seemed to be the best of people so we wondered why he would take such a pay cut to work in Thailand when he had such a successful life in Britain.

One night we stopped for a late dinner at an all night restaurant in Siam Square and in the corner, in the dark was this man and he was being intimate with a 16 year old boy. We then understood why he was here.

There have been so many disappointments, so many times stabbed in the back, so much pain that I finally accepted to do what most other Europeans do here and not make contact until I know enough about the other farrang.

All those who like to pretend that all is perfect here may now feel free to throw their insults.

.

Jus curious. How on earth did you and or your wife know the boy was 16?

Simply amazing.

But good for you and the ex wife!

What's amazing is someone like you making ridiculous comments without realizing it.

16 was a polite way to say a young boy, under aged, illegal, unacceptable and impossible to get away with in London.

Maybe he was 13? You happy?

Simply amazing but I knew someone like you would come up with an insult which begs to wonder about your attitudes towards "boys". Would you like to explain your “norms”?

I personally think that Men and Boys should not be intimate with each other. I know that this somehow makes me an intolerant fascist but hey, that's the way I am.

As such conduct is illegal in Thailand I don't feel the need to apologize to anyone for my condemnation of his behavior.

Now please explain your tolerant views on the subject.

.

I'm going to politely answer you friend.

I merely asked you a question and I get something incredible back.

Your comment about age already implied someone did something inappropriate. I suspect you are not an expert on age verification in Southeast Asia. Is that true?

Please refrain from assertions which are unfounded as you just made toward me regarding age tolerance. Completely amazing!

You know nothing about me and we'll keep it like that. I'm finished with anything further you have to say. Remember if you speak loudly everybody knows how truly ignorant you really are. 555

You kidding, right?

Do you really think making this last post somehow erases what you said to mine?

Your comments are there for anyone to see.

I don't accept apologists for pedophiles and I don't care what anyone has to say about that.

If you don't want your position to be questioned then don't make rude replies to posts made by other members and then pretend to be the victim.

It's the farrangs like you that make me cautious about other farrangs here. I do not want to enter a conversation with someone and then hear them give an apologist's view on pedophilia. That has happened to me too many times for me to ever want to hear it again. I'm not saying you're a bad man but I don't want to spend my time discussing pedophiles or the rights and wrongs of the subject.

If you really think that a 60 year old top tier executive could “make out” with an under aged boy in a restaurant in London and get away with it what can I possibly say to change your mind?

[PDavies]

You kidding, right?

Do you really think making this last post somehow erases what you said to mine?

Your comments are there for anyone to see.

I don't accept apologists for pedophiles and I don't care what anyone has to say about that.

If you don't want your position to be questioned then don't make rude replies to posts made by other members and then pretend to be the victim.

It's the farrangs like you that make me cautious about other farrangs here. I do not want to enter a conversation with someone and then hear them give an apologist's view on pedophilia. That has happened to me too many times for me to ever want to hear it again. I'm not saying you're a bad man but I don't want to spend my time discussing pedophiles or the rights and wrongs of the subject.

If you really think that a 60 year old top tier executive could “make out” with an under aged boy in a restaurant in London and get away with it what can I possibly say to change your mind?

What on earth are you on about?

[thailiketoo]

If you really think that a 60 year old top tier executive could “make out” with an under aged boy in a restaurant in London and get away with it what can I possibly say to change your mind?

Savile later received an OBE for his charity work, and in 1990 he was knighted. His sordid sexual exploits however, only emerged following his death in October 2011, just two days short of his 85th birthday.

Over the past few years hundreds of victims have since come forward to highlight horrific stories of sexual abuse.

[apiwan]

To be honest. I hardly meet fallang s when here.

Don't go to the places they hang out. See 1 or 2 maybe passing near me.

But has an example when I was in big C rama 4 .

In the Hong Kong restaurant. With my missus and daughter 1 fallang sitting on the table behind me heard we we re speaking thai.

Then kindly introduced himself then before I knew it asked me what the going rate was to rent the lady to go to hua hin . <deleted> .

Told him 5000 a day. He said that's good cos I got her to agree to 2000 a day +++.

By meeting the wrong falllangs it's the same old same old.

That's why I try to keep myself to myself .

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[healthbkkbkk]

In my culture whenever one enters a lift one looks at everyone in the eye and says hello and everyone says hello back.

The same when we enter a room in a public place. The rules of politeness are very strict and almost everyone respects them.

When I first arrived in Thailand I did the same as I would in my culture and this caused me years of misery.

I know someone will insult me for saying this but I will say it all the same:

There are so many farrang pedophiles, cheap whore chasers, drunks, fakes, perverts and the mentally ill I avoid contact with any foreigner until i know who/what they are.

My ex wife and I knew a very nice, cultured British gentleman. He seemed to be the best of people so we wondered why he would take such a pay cut to work in Thailand when he had such a successful life in Britain.

One night we stopped for a late dinner at an all night restaurant in Siam Square and in the corner, in the dark was this man and he was being intimate with a 16 year old boy. We then understood why he was here.

There have been so many disappointments, so many times stabbed in the back, so much pain that I finally accepted to do what most other Europeans do here and not make contact until I know enough about the other farrang.

All those who like to pretend that all is perfect here may now feel free to throw their insults.

.

Jus curious. How on earth did you and or your wife know the boy was 16?

Simply amazing.

But good for you and the ex wife!

Or son or stepson or wife's younger brother, etc.

I give up. My English must be so bad I can't convey even the simplest of thoughts. What does "being intimate" mean to you? I'm serious because maybe I don't get it. One is not "being intimate" with a son or stepson or wife's younger brother. In my English "being intimate" is a polite way to say some type of sexual contact.

[healthbkkbkk]

If you really think that a 60 year old top tier executive could “make out” with an under aged boy in a restaurant in London and get away with it what can I possibly say to change your mind?

Savile later received an OBE for his charity work, and in 1990 he was knighted. His sordid sexual exploits however, only emerged following his death in October 2011, just two days short of his 85th birthday.

Over the past few years hundreds of victims have since come forward to highlight horrific stories of sexual abuse.

Did he make out with any of his victims in a public restaurant? I'm surprised the Londeners let him walk away with his health.

[healthbkkbkk]

If you really think that a 60 year old top tier executive could “make out” with an under aged boy in a restaurant in London and get away with it what can I possibly say to change your mind?

Savile later received an OBE for his charity work, and in 1990 he was knighted. His sordid sexual exploits however, only emerged following his death in October 2011, just two days short of his 85th birthday.

Over the past few years hundreds of victims have since come forward to highlight horrific stories of sexual abuse.

Did he make out with any of his victims in public? If not then that would have nothing to do with the example I gave.