Immigration boss confirms the Out-In visa run is dead

[neverdie]

When exactly are you leaving ?

Not soon enough!

Hopefully a moderator expedites his departure !

[LivinLOS]

I disagree 100%.. These guys go through passports every year or two because they fill with Thai stamps.

If you think immigration are going to see 50x visa exempt entries, ask them about their hotel and they say no they have a house.. His response is "your not a tourist"

Plain as day these guys will be caught up in it.

Let me know if this is ever the case.

What you really think guys with houses here, cars here, lives here.. and passports full of visa exempt stamps are not going to be told 'your not a tourist' they exactly fit the profile.

And these guys simply do not have the time to go to a 3rd country to beg for tourist visas, and they amount they spend here is big.

[Aspic]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I've news for this guy - he can't throw me out the country unless I commit a criminal act. Going in and out Thailand is not a criminal offence. This is because there are Thai citizens that I support.

Seems the rules have changed. Best have the correct visa next time an entry to Thailand is required!

[neverdie]

When exactly are you leaving ?

Not soon enough!

Hopefully a moderator expedites his departure !

[Tomtomtom69]

Exactly.. The bangkok post article listed a Korean man who was denied entry as a tourist simply for being married.. The logic being if your married you cant be a tourist ???

--------

I'll put my flak-jacket on, because I haven't actually read that article, but there is usually some combination of factors that gets someone into that kind of a pickle

That guy had done 7 visa runs, each one giving him 90 days so 7 x 90 days = 630 days, i.e. almost 2 years worth of visa runs. Given that, he should really be able to get himself a proper visa, rather than trying to exist on 90 day visa free waivers and abuse the system, which for Koreans is 3 times more generous than most other nationalities, 6 times if you consider that he gets 90 days compared to the 15 days that many other nationalities get when arriving back in Thailand overland.

Where did it state he had been doing it over 2 years.. How are you so sure he hadnt done eg 7 visa runs in the last few weeks..

This comes back to my professionals hopping in and out.

If he had done 7 trips in the last few weeks he wouldn't be a visa runner, but probably a legitimate businessman or perhaps a tourist. In such a case, each entry would only have been for a few days, hardly someone who could be called a "visa runner".

Although the article didn't specify his exact movements, it was implied that he had done 7 trips to renew his stay and was living in Thailand on 90 day visa exempt entries, thus being in Thailand almost 2 years. That's what this crackdown is aimed at - to stop people like him from living Thailand without an appropriate visa.

If business people or tourists that use Thailand as a pivot point weren't allowed to travel here more than once in say 3 months or 6 months, the entire Thai airline industry and tourism industry would collapse and Suvarnabhum airport could kiss it's hub status goodbye. As is clear from the article, this is NOT the intention of the crackdown, but rather to stop people living in Thailand on visa exempt entries.

[ovenman]

Exactly.. The bangkok post article listed a Korean man who was denied entry as a tourist simply for being married.. The logic being if your married you cant be a tourist ???

--------

I'll put my flak-jacket on, because I haven't actually read that article, but there is usually some combination of factors that gets someone into that kind of a pickle

That guy had done 7 visa runs, each one giving him 90 days so 7 x 90 days = 630 days, i.e. almost 2 years worth of visa runs. Given that, he should really be able to get himself a proper visa, rather than trying to exist on 90 day visa free waivers and abuse the system, which for Koreans is 3 times more generous than most other nationalities, 6 times if you consider that he gets 90 days compared to the 15 days that many other nationalities get when arriving back in Thailand overland.

Where did it state he had been doing it over 2 years.. How are you so sure he hadnt done eg 7 visa runs in the last few weeks..

This comes back to my professionals hopping in and out.

There does seems to be this assumption on the part of many that if one gets say, a thirty-day stamp, they need to stay for twenty-nine days, twenty-three hour and fifty-nine minutes or else they're losing value or something.

[geckolady]

A lot of innocent teachers could get messed around. Schools don't always sort papers.

[LivinLOS]

A 'backpacker' will not likely make repeated visa runs after almost exactly 30 days. Their trips will likely be more random and from different borders. Someone crossing a border after only twelve days will be less suspect than someone doing so close to thirty days since their previous entry.

But you cannot have vague discretionary rules.. Not when air travel is concerned.

Say they are in cambodia and have a flight out of the 'hub airport' of swampy.. What happens when they rock up from siem reap and get told no ?? They need to be sure for a flight..

The system cannot operate on the whims of the guy on the desk, there has to be a system of precise rules.

They aren't vague.

Would you like it if the stopped every single person at Customs in order to check their luggage?

There aren't trying to inconvenience everyone. But the amount of people working there with neither WP or suitable visa has clearly become an issue.

Ohh but they are vague..

This at the officers discretion.. If he feels they are a tourist.. If he is happy they are not resident.. maybe he might..

That cant operate.. Not when people have planes to catch, transfers to make, and timing to stick to.

Either the rule is one and done.. Or its not.. But 'based on the mood of the guard on the day' is not a system that can be applied successfully.

Sure the only people who are going to miss planes and have huge financial costs to this are non Thai, so they can do it.. But it will be a disaster.

[Cnxforever]

Personally im an offshore worker I work 28days on/off rotation. On my off time I live with my gf & child(Thai) in a rented property. I have always been coming in on the 30 non visa entry. As I don't see what I do as a "visa run" because im out of the country every 2nd month. I'm wondering how this will effect me & the many more like me who have been doing this for years... as i dont work in the country ok i dont pay tax but I spend a considerable amount of money in the country(again like many in my situation) thus building the economy. Will I need to get a visa & if so what kind of visa does some1 get in my current situation?? Any help is much appreciated. Thanks

I am also in the same boat and would be interested to know the outcome. I fly back tomorrow and hoping they let me in

Will look into getting the family visa this time around too.

Same here and my company pays for the airfare to Bangkok from wherever I am in the world the day I leave - no chance to get a visa because there are no consulates if there are any then there is no time to do it.

Just been to the Caribbean a few month - no Thaj Consulate anywhere.

Sick and tired of being looked at like criminal because have so many stamps in my passport we are too young for retirement and still work abroad have family/ partners here and have to listen to this crab from some corrupt official who has payed his way to the top like most of them.

I have never committed a crime in my life and gave supported a large family here for many years.

I have spent at least 20 million Baht in this country over the years - and now I might be turned away at the border if J try to return from work?

I have had enough of this!

[LivinLOS]

If he had done 7 trips in the last few weeks he wouldn't be a visa runner, but probably a legitimate businessman or perhaps a tourist. In such a case, each entry would only have been for a few days, hardly someone who could be called a "visa runner".

Although the article didn't specify his exact movements, it was implied that he had done 7 trips to renew his stay and was living in Thailand on 90 day visa exempt entries, thus being in Thailand almost 2 years. That's what this crackdown is aimed at - to stop people like him from living Thailand without an appropriate visa.

If business people or tourists that use Thailand as a pivot point weren't allowed to travel here more than once in say 3 months or 6 months, the entire Thai airline industry and tourism industry would collapse and Suvarnabhum airport could kiss it's hub status goodbye. As is clear from the article, this is NOT the intention of the crackdown, but rather to stop people living in Thailand on visa exempt entries.

and this is my point.. Read what the immigration guy has stated.. After August 12 its one and done, anything more is purely at the officers discretion. If they think your living here (even as a businessman working around asia) and you arrive on something for tourists, you can be blacklisted for life !!! This is their statements !!

You cant plan on some immigration's guards discretion. You cant plan on the 'intention' of the rule being accurately determined.. There has to be exact rules.

[metisdead]

Some more posts have been removed, please read the following again:

A post using all caps has been removed, turn off your Caps Lock key when posting:

Posting in all capitals or in all bold, and using large or unusual fonts and colors is bad netiquette.

Another post using overly large all caps has been removed. From Thai Visa Forum Netiquette:

1. Please do not post in all capital letters, bold, unusual fonts, sizes or colors. It can be difficult to read.

Simply turn off your All Caps button when posting and post like everybody else, then your posts won't be removed.

[max72]

Yes, they are vague.

Do you remember the post of that guy who was refused entry at the airport because he had too many stamps, than He made another queue and the other imm. officier didn t' say a word and let him entry smoothly ?

These things shouldn't happen, this is what scares people away, rather than strict but clear rules.

Everything in Thailand depends on the mood of somebody, if they look for a way to scare people away, this is the perfect receipt.

[ukrules]

For example: on May 9, I returned (via Moscow, via Warsaw) to Bangkok, after being away from Thailand for SEVEN MONTHS. That's 7 months out, to make it clear again To my surprise, the official at border control grilled me in an extremely rude manner, as if I were surely up to no good, and apparently almost didn't let me in. I could have easily explained to her what my work is (well outside of Thailand), that I never (ever) try to work in Thailand, that I have a long history of paying rent and bills in a community that loves me. I don't even drink, for heavens sake. But she had no interest in hearing about that. Only kept asking 'what are you doing in Thailand!'. I could have explained easily about my work outside of Thailand, and if she had looked carefully could see that I'd been gone for a good while. An explanation and actual time outside of Thailand (and each year, for that matter), she had no interest in hearing about. It was as if suddenly I'd been purposely trying to do something wrong, simply because the political mood has changed, and that simply isn't the case.

When you entered on May 9th were you using a visa of any kind or the regular 30 day visa exemption ?

[JohnThailandJohn]

I don't see how this has anything to do with stolen passports or a missing airplane. Passports can be stolen by and from anyone. What I do find coincidental is an article that appeared in The Post days before this came an issue titled: Senior cops busted for visa misconduct


See: http://udon-news.com/en/news/senior-cops-busted-for-visa-misconduct Two senior immigration police officers, one of whom is a former aide to the national police chief, have been moved to inactive posts after being tied to irregularities in a visa run service advertised online.

Edited May 13, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[skorchio]

Just curious as to what are the visa running tourists doing in Thailand? Are they just living here on a foreign income or working illegally?

I am one of these persons. I work offshore in Africa Europe and Asia. I work 5 or 6 weeks on, 5 or 6 weeks off, and I fly in and out on VOA (visa on arrival). I have been doing this for years. Usually I need to do a visa run, but then a week after the visa run I am off to work, for example in Africa, for 6 weeks. I have never worked here, and I never will. I own a condo and all the other things one would expect a guy on a good salary to own. And I am feeling very very vulnerable ..... I am not married, no kids, but she might get popped a question tonight. What the &lt;deleted&gt; I am gonna do now? If we had 6 months warning on this I could have made an exit strategy ..... even 6 weeks would have been better

[kjhbigv]

The black list threat seems pretty horrible if it's just based on their "opinion" about a person. I can see that in case of an arrest and evidence proven. Imagine if it happened to you and it wasn't true especially if you are settled with lots of property here. This kind of hard core tactic should be really troubling to ALL foreigners here, no matter how totally legit you think you are. You might think this isn't about you, but to immigration you're just another SUSPECT, and don't forget that.

Good point. If you are "settled with lots of property here" then you are clearly not a tourist. You should not be in the country on a tourist visa. Seems to me these are exactly the sort of people who will end up being blacklisted if they do not get themselves onto the right kind of visa.

So, what if someone is under 50, plenty of cash in a Thai bank and in their home country (as well as property in their own country), single and not married to a Thai and say owns one apartment here?

They are exactly the people who should be blacklisted? Really? Cash rich with money to spend!

Exactly what type of visa would be suitable?

[GinBoy2]

Just to be a bit contrarian here; as much as we all complain about Thai immigration, 90 day reporting, visa runs etc, compared to many of our home countries Thailand is pretty lenient. I'm American, can't see a Mexican being allowed to essentially live in the US by going back and forward over the border. Kinda think the same would apply to a North African trying to do the same into the EU. Now I know both of these examples are economic migrants, but you get my drift

[jjablonsky]

Wonder if we'll see an exodus from Thailand. If so would they do an about face?

[max72]

If he had done 7 trips in the last few weeks he wouldn't be a visa runner, but probably a legitimate businessman or perhaps a tourist. In such a case, each entry would only have been for a few days, hardly someone who could be called a "visa runner".

Although the article didn't specify his exact movements, it was implied that he had done 7 trips to renew his stay and was living in Thailand on 90 day visa exempt entries, thus being in Thailand almost 2 years. That's what this crackdown is aimed at - to stop people like him from living Thailand without an appropriate visa.

If business people or tourists that use Thailand as a pivot point weren't allowed to travel here more than once in say 3 months or 6 months, the entire Thai airline industry and tourism industry would collapse and Suvarnabhum airport could kiss it's hub status goodbye. As is clear from the article, this is NOT the intention of the crackdown, but rather to stop people living in Thailand on visa exempt entries.

and this is my point.. Read what the immigration guy has stated.. After August 12 its one and done, anything more is purely at the officers discretion. If they think your living here (even as a businessman working around asia) and you arrive on something for tourists, you can be blacklisted for life !!! This is their statements !!

You cant plan on some immigration's guards discretion. You cant plan on the 'intention' of the rule being accurately determined.. There has to be exact rules.

What about if I entry with a tourist visa for 60 days, I go out for 1 week holiday by air and come back for 30 days ?

Can I be refused the entry ?

If i have my return ticket. Would be a good idea to show the bank book ? Because If i show a Thai bank book the officier, if he is in a bad mood, might think this is the proof I am living in Thailand.

This is the problem in Thailand: you never know what is correct and what is not. I have perfectly clean records here and outside Thailand but every time I have to fear to be kicked out and blacklisted for life like the worst criminal....

no, I correct myself, UNLIKE the worst criminals, they always find a way out....

[Tomtomtom69]

Its their own business really.

The whole situation surrounding border run shows are created by thai and Thai only.

Bending rules are a daily routine in thailand and I sincerely hope that this time the rules are clear and without loopholes.

Why now?

The Frankfurt Airport refusel of entry ,is my opinion!

Nah, I don't think so. At the end of the day, Thailand still wants to encourage tourism, but the abuse of the visa exemption system has gone on for years and has been exploited by many foreign criminals, including the ones involved in the stolen passport trade such as the 2 passports that were reported as lost or stolen in Thailand and used by illegal immigrants from iran to board MH 370. As has already been stated, this is partly the reason for this crackdown right now.

I think that Thailand may also want to take a hard look at whether any tourist visas should be granted at all, or only with the toughest of requirements (such as a minimum bank balance, proof of outbound/return tickets, proof of job or student status at school/university, letter of leave being granted from job, proof of accommodation bookings or an invitation letter from a Thai national or foreigner living in Thailand etc. from nationals of certain countries that they consider "problematic", including most West African nations, Bangladesh, Pakistan, some middle eastern nations and a few others). These are the same sort of requirements that Thais have to go through in order to be granted visas for western countries, so it doesn't seem unreasonable for Thai authorities to apply the same requirements to foreigners, but as I said the most stringent requirements should be for nationals of countries whose nationals are involved in criminal activity, work illegally, overstay etc. regularly.

As a tourism dependent economy, most western nationals, ASEAN nationals, South Koreans, Japanese etc. should still be let in to Thailand without a visa but more scrutiny can be applied i.e. enforcing the funds requirement (albeit, like in western countries some discretion is advised so rather than asking every foreigner, they should decide to check out visa runners as the new rules seem to imply and not wealthy looking occasional or first time visitors that are likely to complain to their embassies/consulates and newspapers back home etc. about "discrimination".)

Edited May 13, 2014 by Tomtomtom69

[yourauntbob]

not going to be many teachers left in the kindom if they enforce this as stated. with a lack of supply, and growing demand, the schools and language centers would need to start upping the wages instead of letting them fall lower and lower like over the last decade. when that starts hitting some pocket books they will need to find some type of exemption or institute and follow through with better non-o rules and processing.

[notmyself]

You cant plan on some immigration's guards discretion. You cant plan on the 'intention' of the rule being accurately determined.. There has to be exact rules.

Yep

[cyborgx]

The black list threat seems pretty horrible if it's just based on their "opinion" about a person. I can see that in case of an arrest and evidence proven. Imagine if it happened to you and it wasn't true especially if you are settled with lots of property here. This kind of hard core tactic should be really troubling to ALL foreigners here, no matter how totally legit you think you are. You might think this isn't about you, but to immigration you're just another SUSPECT, and don't forget that.

---------------

Blacklisting and forever banning some of the out-and-out criminals can only be a good thing.

I see several people bleating about being "respectable", owning property, etc -- If they are such pillars of society they will have no problem in getting a triple-entry tourist visa from their home country, which can be made valid for over a year using the immigration office in Thailand to get the extensions, etc.

Sounds to me as if these are some of the people they are telling to get the right visa, and should also be careful. Owning property here is hardly the action of a "Tourist". Better to get an Investment Visa or something more appropriate to what you are actually doing in Thailand.

[Time Traveller]

By accusing foreigners of "perceived" wrongdoing, this is 100% a smokescreen to divert attention from Thailand's own problem of institutionalized human trafficking.

[John1thru10]

I've seen many posts here now,.......

Your incredibly long rant about Thai rules is duly noted. The posters assuming criminal behavior, probably off base.

Are you circumnavigating the rules? Absolutely. Whether you agree with them or not, they are the rules. The back to back border runs, multiple tourist visas etc. you may think that they were legal but they were always like a tax loophole. Take advantage until someone sees the problem. The Thai officials are just clamping down on people looking for loopholes like yourself.

And you missed the relevant information, which proves my point. It's not about 'back to back' - unless you consider 7 months in between visits to be 'back to back', which it logically doesn't at all.

Edited May 13, 2014 by John1thru10

[Cnxforever]

Just curious as to what are the visa running tourists doing in Thailand? Are they just living here on a foreign income or working illegally?

I am one of these persons. I work offshore in Africa Europe and Asia. I work 5 or 6 weeks on, 5 or 6 weeks off, and I fly in and out on VOA (visa on arrival). I have been doing this for years. Usually I need to do a visa run, but then a week after the visa run I am off to work, for example in Africa, for 6 weeks. I have never worked here, and I never will. I own a condo and all the other things one would expect a guy on a good salary to own. And I am feeling very very vulnerable ..... I am not married, no kids, but she might get popped a question tonight. What the <deleted> I am gonna do now? If we had 6 months warning on this I could have made an exit strategy ..... even 6 weeks would have been better

Same for me usually needed one visa run after arriving and getting the :0 day stamp but after they changed from 30 to 14 days sometimes needed two visa runs as sometimes I am off for two month before leaving for work again.

Then my company flies me to wherever I need to go next - anywhere in the world they usually arrange the ticket about two weeks before leaving.

which is the next headache because we fly on one way tickets sometimes the airlines / immigration ask for a return ticket which we can't have because we fly all over the world sometimes in short notice and the ticket is purchased just before the next assignment!

[Cnxforever]

Just curious as to what are the visa running tourists doing in Thailand? Are they just living here on a foreign income or working illegally?

I am one of these persons. I work offshore in Africa Europe and Asia. I work 5 or 6 weeks on, 5 or 6 weeks off, and I fly in and out on VOA (visa on arrival). I have been doing this for years. Usually I need to do a visa run, but then a week after the visa run I am off to work, for example in Africa, for 6 weeks. I have never worked here, and I never will. I own a condo and all the other things one would expect a guy on a good salary to own. And I am feeling very very vulnerable ..... I am not married, no kids, but she might get popped a question tonight. What the <deleted> I am gonna do now? If we had 6 months warning on this I could have made an exit strategy ..... even 6 weeks would have been better

Same for me usually needed one visa run after arriving and getting the 30 day stamp but after they changed from 30 to 14 days sometimes needed two visa runs as sometimes I am off for two month before leaving for work again.

Then my company flies me to wherever I need to go next - anywhere in the world they usually arrange the ticket about two weeks before leaving.

which is the next headache because we fly on one way tickets sometimes the airlines / immigration ask for a return ticket which we can't have because we fly all over the world sometimes in short notice and the ticket is purchased just before the next assignment!

Edited May 13, 2014 by Cnxforever

[notmyself]

The black list threat seems pretty horrible if it's just based on their "opinion" about a person. I can see that in case of an arrest and evidence proven. Imagine if it happened to you and it wasn't true especially if you are settled with lots of property here. This kind of hard core tactic should be really troubling to ALL foreigners here, no matter how totally legit you think you are. You might think this isn't about you, but to immigration you're just another SUSPECT, and don't forget that.

Good point. If you are "settled with lots of property here" then you are clearly not a tourist. You should not be in the country on a tourist visa. Seems to me these are exactly the sort of people who will end up being blacklisted if they do not get themselves onto the right kind of visa.

So, what if someone is under 50, plenty of cash in a Thai bank and in their home country (as well as property in their own country), single and not married to a Thai and say owns one apartment here?

They are exactly the people who should be blacklisted? Really? Cash rich with money to spend!

Exactly what type of visa would be suitable?

The 10 million investment visa presumably but after Thailand shafted so many people in the mid 2000s when it was 2-3 million people are understandably reluctant.

[max72]

The black list threat seems pretty horrible if it's just based on their "opinion" about a person. I can see that in case of an arrest and evidence proven. Imagine if it happened to you and it wasn't true especially if you are settled with lots of property here. This kind of hard core tactic should be really troubling to ALL foreigners here, no matter how totally legit you think you are. You might think this isn't about you, but to immigration you're just another SUSPECT, and don't forget that.

---------------

Blacklisting and forever banning some of the out-and-out criminals can only be a good thing.

I see several people bleating about being "respectable", owning property, etc -- If they are such pillars of society they will have no problem in getting a triple-entry tourist visa from their home country, which can be made valid for over a year using the immigration office in Thailand to get the extensions, etc.

Sounds to me as if these are some of the people they are telling to get the right visa, and should also be careful. Owning property here is hardly the action of a "Tourist". Better to get an Investment Visa or something more appropriate to what you are actually doing in Thailand.

It's not forbidden and it has never been forbidden to buy a piece of property for a tourist in Thailand.

I did it with my tourist visa and I was surprised how easy, fast and smooth is to acquire a property in Thailand.

I like to have my condo in Bangkok with all facilities (pool, sauna, gym) and I would like to have another one on the beach.

It's safe to let the condo locked for few months when I am outside. There are guards and cameras.

What kind of visa should I have ? Business visa ? I am not doing a business, I have just bought a condo to spend my winter holidays, coz I hate cold weather. What is wrong with that ?

It is not against Thai law. Why should be viewed with suspicioun now ?

It's because these vague rules that I haven't bought a second property on the beach. I have instead bought a property in another country.

It is not for business. For leisure. No business visa is require for it. But now I feel unsafe.I don't think this is fair. I have only spent money in Thailand and never done anything bad. And the great majority of people are in my same situation. I am well under 50 but I am more wealthy than most over 50 here, I can't get a retirement visa. So, the best thing is move to another country ? Ok, up to Thais.

[ukrules]

If he wants to do the right thing then start punishing the businesses that hire foreignets w/o work permits

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

That's what they do in the UK and the fines are big, tens of thousands of pounds.

They even made a tv program about it of which I watched a few episodes. I was disgusted to see the way they hunt down foreigners in the UK. They may be working illegally in Chinese restaurants, etc but lets face it - who else would work there.

Every week this tv program showed this 'border force' raiding Indian, Chinese and probably Thai (can't remember for sure) restaurants and arresting the waiters and chefs.

Coming to Thailand soon...