Thai Immigration is determined to prevent abuse of visa exceptions

[simon43]

I get fed up with the mantra 'they make it so hard for us to get work permits here'.

Now I must take issue with you Samran, because here in Phuket it is not always that easy to get a WP. I have worked in Phuket, but my 2 initial applications (many years ago) for a WP were rejected by Phuket Labour Office, without reason, (all company documents, employed Thais etc correct). Then my lawyer made a 'small' change to my application involving xx,000 baht and voila! I get my WP.

Fast-forward to this year and I am applying again for a WP (as manager of my new little resort). All paperwork is correct, but my lawyer has warned me that I will not get that WP unless I pay around 50,000 baht bribe.

(BTW, this is not my lawyer trying to rip me off - I have used 2 different lawyers (1 foreign, 1 Thai) for over a decade in Phuket, with very low fees and good service).

So in my efforts to stay legal, I am forced to break the law by paying bribes.......

I wish it were not so, but obtaining a WP in Phuket is not always straightforward at all.

Simon

Edited May 19, 2014 by simon43

[LivinLOS]

How boring is to hear this trite mantra all the time. You want to know ?

My country, as many other countries do the following:

• Recognize the opportunity and the need for everyone to search an improvement in life
• Offers a clear legal and social framework to immigrants
• Opens our free schools to child of any nationality to teach our language and what we recognize are universal values
• Gives immigrant full legal rights, the same as our citizens.
• Maintains IDCs of human and decent conditions
• Allow foreigners to hold unlimited property in form of real estate or company stock.
• Provides access to free healthcare to any legal resident, and free emergency healthcare to anyone indiscriminately
• Does not preclude foreigners from any trade or profession except few related to national security.
• Combats corruptions and does not tolerate officer's abuse.
• Does not require anyone to go for nonsense border or visa runs if residency provisions are met

Of course, not all these things work perfectly 100% all the time, but at least that's the idea, and the law.

The day that Thailand will achieve one only of the points above, that day a cop General will be in a position to speak about what other countries do for Thai's.

So based on Thailand lacking those things, you consider it acceptable for people to essentially live in Thailand by using tourist visas year after year?

Even though that is not the purpose of a tourist visa? I don't see how Thailand lacking those things you listed give people the right to abuse the visa system.

Maybe you can enlighten me.

The issue is contributors to society or cost upon society.

The westerner who comes here, for however long, and doesnt work in Thailand is purely a contributor, they must support themselves in all aspects and get nothing from the government. They are purely a contributor.

The Thai that goes to the west, will be able to take advantage of economic positives, higher paid work, free benefits and a clear and simple path to citizenship. They do contribute, if working, but very often far less than they receive.

Yes the systems should be designed for the maximum benefit of a society, to allow contributors and restrict those who are a net drain. Both should be maximized to the full extent of the visa and immigration policy.

Makes perfect sense no ??

and if the thai is contributing less than received in your country, why is your country allowing them to immigrate?

Because ultimately most developed nations are not that xenophobic in actual policy. We encourage integration and naturalization, we dont for example brand people as 'oi you.. Foreigner' when we speak to them, etc etc..

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Having been through the process of getting migrant labour permits 3 or 4 times there are built in requirements of quotas of the number of people you can hire and the requirement to pay Thai minimum wage and give them access to Thai social services before the work permit is issued. So in the thai context doing it this way isn't doing things below market rates, it is a response to the difficulty of hiring locals when the unemployment rate is effectively zero.

At a broader level I get fed up with the mantra 'they make it so hard for us to get work permits here'. I suggest one should try getting a work permit in the west where there are proper labour market tests and then come back and talk about restrictions.

As for those who are married to Thais, I've always been supportive of those being given automatic work rights.

For me, the work permit is a red herring. Even if you'd gave automatic work rights to these people, they'd still struggle to find work given they don't really bring the skills Thailand needs, language being one of them. And to maintain the living standards they are used to they basically price themselves out of the market.

So on that basis alone id be happy giving out automatic work rights as it would shut up the moaners who complain Thailand doesn't want them to work here, and lay it open for all to see they are basically unemployable...

Hey Samran,

I live in MaeJo near CM, very hard for Thais to find work at any price in this area, the Burmese workers have swamped the area at 150bht a day.

Minimum wage is worked around by supplying them with food and accommodation included in the job.

Not that many would value a stick shanty and a bit of rice that highly.

They all have permits despite the 150bht/day wage.

Can't imagine it's that different anywhere else in Thailand.

Went out to a temple party at the place near MaeJo golf club, the other day.

95% Burmese people, couldn't understand the groups playing music, all Burmese.

All dressed in Burmese costumes too. Must have been over 2,000, in a small town, that's a lot of cheap labor.

(The other two Thais I went with were totally outraged, The usual "they come to our country" blah, blah, amusing really)

Edited May 19, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[neverdie]

Having been through the process of getting migrant labour permits 3 or 4 times there are built in requirements of quotas of the number of people you can hire and the requirement to pay Thai minimum wage and give them access to Thai social services before the work permit is issued. So in the thai context doing it this way isn't doing things below market rates, it is a response to the difficulty of hiring locals when the unemployment rate is effectively zero.

At a broader level I get fed up with the mantra 'they make it so hard for us to get work permits here'. I suggest one should try getting a work permit in the west where there are proper labour market tests and then come back and talk about restrictions.

As for those who are married to Thais, I've always been supportive of those being given automatic work rights.

For me, the work permit is a red herring. Even if you'd gave automatic work rights to these people, they'd still struggle to find work given they don't really bring the skills Thailand needs, language being one of them. And to maintain the living standards they are used to they basically price themselves out of the market.

So on that basis alone id be happy giving out automatic work rights as it would shut up the moaners who complain Thailand doesn't want them to work here, and lay it open for all to see they are basically unemployable...

Hey Samran,

I live in MaeJo near CM, very hard for Thais to find work at any price in this area, the Burmese workers have swamped the area at 150bht a day.

Minimum wage is worked around by supplying them with food and accommodation included in the job.

Not that many would value a stick shanty and a bit of rice that highly.

They all have permits despite the 150bht/day wage.

Can't imagine it's that different anywhere else in Thailand.

Went out to a temple party at the place near MaeJo golf club, the other day.

95% Burmese people, couldn't understand the groups playing music, all Burmese.

All dressed in Burmese costumes too. Must have been over 2,000, in a small town, that's a lot of cheap labor.

My home is in a completely different area to you, just south of Bkk and I believe we have the highest concentration of workers from Burma than anywhere else in Thailand. In actual fact, we've got so many people from Burma that recently Aung San Suu Kyi came to our province to speak to her people. I've got absolutely no idea how many of them actually are legal but it's reaching a point where some sections of the province have more of them than Thais.. They are here working In the factories in their thousands. There are apartment buildings of 60-70 rooms with 6-10 people living in each room. And there's dozens of apartment buildings full of them. In their marketplace I can no longer hear Thai language being spoken. I call the area mini Myanmar. Same thing you reporting, shows, music, parties......not a Thai insight.

In the villages near my home I have noticed it's all the people from Burma working in the gardens and digging at the roadside and building sites.

I mean this isn't a new thing but over the last decade the numbers have increased significantly.

just saying.

[mariner16]

"what is the definition of a resident, what is the definition of a tourist"

And this is clearly the nut of the problem.

There is no problem whatsoever with Thailand making it rules. But rules must be clear, must be understood, must not have large grey areas and too much discretion placed in the hands of (often corrupt) and unprofessional people.

What exactly is the difference between a long stay tourist and a short term resident ?? It must be defined.

Is it money source ??

Is it time incountry ??

Is it tickets out ??

Is it having a home ?? What if you maintain 2 ?? Or more ??

Is it travelling around to visit sites and attractions ??

It cannot be 'you have too many stamps' based on a 30 second scan of the pages, it must have a decent and clear metric.. That is applied equally to all.. Airlines will have to manage this issue at check in. It needs to be precise not one persons 'feeling'..

Having spent the morning digging around on this site and others I can define resident from

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

"Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand."

So if you are an offshore oil and gas worker on equal time on/off employed by an overseas employer you should not be classed as a "Resident" of Thailand, but if you have a home available to you here are you taken to be "residing in Thailand", even if you are physically not present whilst at work. If you get a 30 day stamp at the airport each time you arrive and leave before it expires can you be a frequent tourist who happens to like visiting Thailand for 28 days six or seven times a year or are you "residing in Thailand" because your wife happens to own a house which you stay in when you are in Thailand, and does getting an "extension of stay based on marriage" change any of this.

Oh well, hopefully somebody will enlighten us

[stevenl]

I get fed up with the mantra 'they make it so hard for us to get work permits here'.

Now I must take issue with you Samran, because here in Phuket it is not always that easy to get a WP. I have worked in Phuket, but my 2 initial applications (many years ago) for a WP were rejected by Phuket Labour Office, without reason, (all company documents, employed Thais etc correct). Then my lawyer made a 'small' change to my application involving xx,000 baht and voila! I get my WP.

Fast-forward to this year and I am applying again for a WP (as manager of my new little resort). All paperwork is correct, but my lawyer has warned me that I will not get that WP unless I pay around 50,000 baht bribe.

(BTW, this is not my lawyer trying to rip me off - I have used 2 different lawyers (1 foreign, 1 Thai) for over a decade in Phuket, with very low fees and good service).

So in my efforts to stay legal, I am forced to break the law by paying bribes.......

I wish it were not so, but obtaining a WP in Phuket is not always straightforward at all.

Simon

My experiences are totally different. Sounds to me like there is something wrong with the information/paperwork.

[brewsterbudgen]

Because ultimately most developed nations are not that xenophobic in actual policy. We encourage integration and naturalization, we dont for example brand people as 'oi you.. Foreigner' when we speak to them, etc etc..

Hmmm where do you live? Utopia? How to explain the rise of UKIP in the UK and other extreme right, xenophobic parties in Europe?

[Tomtomtom69]

But so, they don't give choice for a person who have money allowance / income from abroad, to live in Thailand, if they're under 50 years.

- So the foreigner are forcing to marry a thai girl / or to have a kid with them to pretend a non O-Visa, or

- So the foreigner to learn Thai language, and apply a ED-Visa, or

- So the foreigner finding a job in Thailand wish is very difficult to get B-Visa & WP, or may invest 10,000,000 baht or

- So the foreigner, will need to invest in a Thailand Elite Card,

or so, going to Philippines / Cambodia, where is too easy to stay, even for 20 years, and make extensions & give only the extensions fees.

Yes live in crap countries with bad food, and corrupt governments who could change there laws as well, then what are you going to do

Laws can change anywhere but at this point in time, countries that are much poorer than Thailand and much more desperately need the income from foreign investors and tourists like Cambodia and the Philippines will continue to be attractive places to enter and live based on their visa laws, which have no indication of changing any time soon. So, if you want an easy and relatively cheap visa option try one of those two countries. For now it's possible to live in Cambodia continuously for life on 1-year visa extensions with no proof of anything required and you get your extension done via an agent for less than US$300 a year (usually about $280-293 depending on the agent), never in person by yourself where it would actually be more complicated. Another option is making a donation to the government to buy citizenship, but that's much more expensive than a lifetime's worth of 1-year extensions. However, the Cambodian government has made it more difficult for foreigners from poorer nations, mostly in South Asia (such as Sri Lanka and Pakistan) and west Africa to enter it's country, with VOA no longer an option for some of these nationals.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Tomtomtom69

[Tomtomtom69]

No they don't but we don't allow Thais to do that in my country either so why should they allow us to?

Because they are a poorer country anyone who makes more than the average Thai person should be allowed to live in Thailand?

Come on how are you guys even complaining about this.

Why should Thailand change their immigration laws to suit YOUR specific needs and wants?

No country in the world is doing that for Thai people.

How boring is to hear this trite mantra all the time. You want to know ?

My country, as many other countries do the following, among other things:

• Recognize the opportunity and the need for everyone to search an improvement in life
• Offers a clear legal and social framework to immigrants
• Opens our free schools to child of any nationality to teach our language and what we recognize are universal values
• Gives immigrant full legal rights, the same as our citizens.
• Maintains IDCs of human and decent conditions
• Allow foreigners to hold unlimited property in form of real estate or company stock.
• Provides access to free healthcare to any legal resident, and free emergency healthcare to anyone indiscriminately
• Does not preclude foreigners from any trade or profession except few related to national security.
• Combats corruptions and does not tolerate officer's abuse.
• Does not require anyone to go for nonsense border or visa runs if residency provisions are met

Of course, not all these things work perfectly 100% of the time, but at least that's the idea, and the law.

The day that Thailand will achieve one only of the points above, that day a cop General will be in a position to speak about what other countries do for Thais.

Maybe you should send a protest letter to your government to stop foreigners from being freeloaders and receiving these benefits. Where do you live, some Scandinavian country with like 68% personal income tax?

Whilst I recognize the need to combat corruption, visa runs should not necessarily be a fact of life for living in a country etc. but free schools, full legal rights, unlimited property rights for non-citizens?! That doesn't sound like a good policy at all and allows for possible exploitation of your citizens and country. Why then even bother being a citizen if you are being spoon fed and given access to all these benefits as foreigners? I would vote a government like that out of office very quickly, why should our tax dollars be spent on giving handouts to non-citizens?

[Thai at Heart]

....

As detailed above, I have filed a P85 in UK and have been accepted as an overseas resident for income tax purposes, prior to this as a seafarer I enjoyed 100% refund on all income generated by employment, but now am in the situation of having pension and rental income in UK which if I was resident would be taxable.

Since you have rental income in the UK, you already have a clear UK tax obligation regardless of where you hang your hat. You can google The Non-resident Landlord Scheme. Then have a chat with your UK tax consultant who will also clarify the status on your UK pension taxation and other income liabilities.

I have an APEC business travel card based on my NZ passport, sponsored by my employer in Singapore, which I use when I travel on business, are we saying that I should not use this to enter Thailand and get a 90 day entry stamp as I am not strictly entering for business reasons ?

I have never been employed in Thailand, although it is quite possible my Singapore employer might require me to undertake duties in Thailand on their behalf connected with offshore oil and gas vessels

Please take this as me thinking aloud, I am genuinely interested in what the definition of resident is in Thailand and at what point one becomes liable to taxation. Right now I consider myself as living in Thailand but am not totally convinced that I am a resident in the legal sense of the word.

You may want to ask your kiwi accountant about the NZ dual taxation agreements since in Thailand taxpayers are classified into resident and non-resident. Resident means a person who resides in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating 180 days or more in any tax (i.e., the calendar) year.

Your Thai tax consultant can probably clarify the following for you.

Any taxpayer, whether or not Thai tax-resident, is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand on a cash basis, regardless of where the money is actually paid.

A Thai tax-resident may also be subject to tax on income from sources overseas, if that income is brought into Thailand. In contrast, a tax non-resident will not be subject to tax on income sourced from overseas.

Hello NanLaew,

If you are more familiar with Thai classifications, could you please clarify where we can find a reliable (preferably government publication) and have a look at this info in English?

...

Plenty of information on the internet. I am not an expert, just someone living here, there and everywhere for several years. The following from this website. Note the reference to the English-language Thai government website at the end so you can follow up.

Everybody who has an income and is living in Thailand must have their own tax ID number. This can be issued by the tax office but you need to present ID such as your passport or ID card. You will also need to show why you need the number. The Revenue Office does have English speaking staff who can help with any queries.

Those who live in Thailand for more than half the year are considered to be resident in the country for the purposes of tax. If you are resident then you are expected to pay taxes on all income that you earn worldwide. If you are not a resident and are in the country for less than 180 days each year then you are only expected to pay tax on the income that you get from within Thailand. Those who do not have a work permit are not exempt from paying taxes.

All income that is considered to be assessable comes under the heading of Personal Income Tax. This includes non-cash payments such as accommodation or the use of a car. There are several different categories of personal income including income from employment, income from a position held, income from royalties or dividends, income from rental agreements, income from construction work or income from any business.

There are a series of deductions that can be made from assessable income and this needs to be done in a specific order. A person completing a tax return will start with the assessable income amount, then take away deductions such as expenses, then take away any personal allowances. The amount that is left is the amount that can be taxed. There are different percentages of deductions depending upon the type. These are reviewed regularly so the best course of action is to check the website of the Revenue office for the latest information.

An individual taxpayer has a personal allowance of 30,000 Thai Baht. If you are married and your spouse does not work then there is a similar allowance for them. You are also able to claim an allowance of 15,000 Thai Baht for each child under the age of 25 (a maximum of 3 children) if they are studying in full time education. If your parents are over the age of 60 and their income is less than 30,000 Thai Baht you can claim 30,000 Thai Baht each.

If you are over the age of 65 then your own personal allowance becomes 190,000 Thai Baht. In addition to these there are allowances for education and life insurance as well as mortgage interest and contributions made to the social security system.

Those who earn less than 150,000 Thai Baht are exempt from income tax. Anything over this amount and less than THB 500,000 is taxed at 10%. Between this amount and 1 million THB the tax rate is 20%. Over this amount and below 4 million THB is taxed at 30%. Anything above this amount is taxed at 37%.

An individual is able to file their own tax return but all returns need to be in Thai, so non-Thai speakers should seek the help of an accountant. The Thai tax year runs from 1st January to the 31st December and the tax return should be with the tax office by the 31st March, to cover the previous tax year. Payments should be made promptly at the same time as there are penalties for late filing and payment. It may be the case that you need to submit a return every six months if your income is from your own business or for the hiring out of equipment.

Employers will withhold a certain amount of tax at source and this amount is then offset against the tax bill when you file a tax return. This reduces the possibility of getting a large bill. This can be as much as the top rate 37% but will depend on the type of work that you do and your earnings.

There are a number of double taxation agreements in place with other countries which ensure that you are not taxed twice on any income earned in another country. Thailand currently has 51 such agreements in place and a complete list can be found on the website of the revenue office.

Useful Resources

Thailand Inland Revenue Department

www.rd.go.th (website in English)

Tel: +66 2247 2748

I think we may have found the possible reason for the crack down.

Maybe the times of being an offshore worker coming and going but declaring no income are changing.

[Tomtomtom69]

Having been through the process of getting migrant labour permits 3 or 4 times there are built in requirements of quotas of the number of people you can hire and the requirement to pay Thai minimum wage and give them access to Thai social services before the work permit is issued. So in the thai context doing it this way isn't doing things below market rates, it is a response to the difficulty of hiring locals when the unemployment rate is effectively zero.

At a broader level I get fed up with the mantra 'they make it so hard for us to get work permits here'. I suggest one should try getting a work permit in the west where there are proper labour market tests and then come back and talk about restrictions.

As for those who are married to Thais, I've always been supportive of those being given automatic work rights.

For me, the work permit is a red herring. Even if you'd gave automatic work rights to these people, they'd still struggle to find work given they don't really bring the skills Thailand needs, language being one of them. And to maintain the living standards they are used to they basically price themselves out of the market.

So on that basis alone id be happy giving out automatic work rights as it would shut up the moaners who complain Thailand doesn't want them to work here, and lay it open for all to see they are basically unemployable...

Hey Samran,

I live in MaeJo near CM, very hard for Thais to find work at any price in this area, the Burmese workers have swamped the area at 150bht a day.

Minimum wage is worked around by supplying them with food and accommodation included in the job.

Not that many would value a stick shanty and a bit of rice that highly.

They all have permits despite the 150bht/day wage.

Can't imagine it's that different anywhere else in Thailand.

Went out to a temple party at the place near MaeJo golf club, the other day.

95% Burmese people, couldn't understand the groups playing music, all Burmese.

All dressed in Burmese costumes too. Must have been over 2,000, in a small town, that's a lot of cheap labor.

My home is in a completely different area to you, just south of Bkk and I believe we have the highest concentration of workers from Burma than anywhere else in Thailand. In actual fact, we've got so many people from Burma that recently Aung San Suu Kyi came to our province to speak to her people. I've got absolutely no idea how many of them actually are legal but it's reaching a point where some sections of the province have more of them than Thais.. They are here working In the factories in their thousands. There are apartment buildings of 60-70 rooms with 6-10 people living in each room. And there's dozens of apartment buildings full of them. In their marketplace I can no longer hear Thai language being spoken. I call the area mini Myanmar. Same thing you reporting, shows, music, parties......not a Thai insight.

In the villages near my home I have noticed it's all the people from Burma working in the gardens and digging at the roadside and building sites.

I mean this isn't a new thing but over the last decade the numbers have increased significantly.

just saying.

So you're in Mahachai, Samut Sakorn province? Every Thai knows that area is predominantly Burmese, with many of the seafood process workers and fishermen Burmese, unfortunately a lot exploited and forced to work under almost slave like conditions.

The only other even more Burmese area is Mae Sot, which conveniently is located next to the Myanmar border town of Myawady. There are signs and billboards in Burmese, in some instances instead of Thai. It's also funny how there are billboards for the new Home Mart or whatever it's called in Mae Sot, placed ONLY in BURMESE at the Tak-Mae Sot intersection, some 80km from Mae Sot. Umm...first of all, how many Thais can read Burmese? Secondly, how many Burmese have cars, drive around Thailand and expect to read Burmese signs (not to mention the fact that Burmese cars aren't allowed to travel further than Mae Sot)? Burmese signs make sense in Mae Sot, but not in Tak, especially if they are not also accompanied by Thai and/or Thai/English.

[Thai at Heart]

Having been through the process of getting migrant labour permits 3 or 4 times there are built in requirements of quotas of the number of people you can hire and the requirement to pay Thai minimum wage and give them access to Thai social services before the work permit is issued. So in the thai context doing it this way isn't doing things below market rates, it is a response to the difficulty of hiring locals when the unemployment rate is effectively zero.

At a broader level I get fed up with the mantra 'they make it so hard for us to get work permits here'. I suggest one should try getting a work permit in the west where there are proper labour market tests and then come back and talk about restrictions.

As for those who are married to Thais, I've always been supportive of those being given automatic work rights.

For me, the work permit is a red herring. Even if you'd gave automatic work rights to these people, they'd still struggle to find work given they don't really bring the skills Thailand needs, language being one of them. And to maintain the living standards they are used to they basically price themselves out of the market.

So on that basis alone id be happy giving out automatic work rights as it would shut up the moaners who complain Thailand doesn't want them to work here, and lay it open for all to see they are basically unemployable...

Hey Samran,

I live in MaeJo near CM, very hard for Thais to find work at any price in this area, the Burmese workers have swamped the area at 150bht a day.

Minimum wage is worked around by supplying them with food and accommodation included in the job.

Not that many would value a stick shanty and a bit of rice that highly.

They all have permits despite the 150bht/day wage.

Can't imagine it's that different anywhere else in Thailand.

Went out to a temple party at the place near MaeJo golf club, the other day.

95% Burmese people, couldn't understand the groups playing music, all Burmese.

All dressed in Burmese costumes too. Must have been over 2,000, in a small town, that's a lot of cheap labor.

(The other two Thais I went with were totally outraged, The usual "they come to our country" blah, blah, amusing really)

Eventually the people here will realise it is the companies that are screwing the Thai people.

Well we in the UK are still working it out. This statement "they are doing jobs the natives won't do" is utter <deleted>. At those wages, most won't.

[Tomtomtom69]

Myanmar loas and Cambodian citizens get migrant labour permits which are fairly straight forward to get and don't require the 4 to 1 ratio for work permits.

Which I take it to mean that such workers are exempt from being in competition with Thai workers. Which would mean that the stated position of preventing foreigners from competing with Thai citizens for jobs applies to every foreigner but those from these three countries. Which to me makes the stated statutory position a load of bunk as the ordinary everyday Thai Citizen is not protected much at all - easily replaced by a neighbor at low wages. Sounds like the USA.

Having been through the process of getting migrant labour permits 3 or 4 times there are built in requirements of quotas of the number of people you can hire and the requirement to pay Thai minimum wage and give them access to Thai social services before the work permit is issued. So in the thai context doing it this way isn't doing things below market rates, it is a response to the difficulty of hiring locals when the unemployment rate is effectively zero.

At a broader level I get fed up with the mantra 'they make it so hard for us to get work permits here'. I suggest one should try getting a work permit in the west where there are proper labour market tests and then come back and talk about restrictions.

As for those who are married to Thais, I've always been supportive of those being given automatic work rights.

For me, the work permit is a red herring. Even if you'd gave automatic work rights to these people, they'd still struggle to find work given they don't really bring the skills Thailand needs, language being one of them. And to maintain the living standards they are used to they basically price themselves out of the market.

So on that basis alone id be happy giving out automatic work rights as it would shut up the moaners who complain Thailand doesn't want them to work here, and lay it open for all to see they are basically unemployable...

I don't have any experience regarding trying to get a WP for a non-standard job in Thailand. Basically any company that is eligible to hire me is able to easily procure a WP for me, has been the case every time and I have worked in 3 different lines of work here in Thailand.

The difficult part is getting a job offer in the first place, i.e. an employer to hire you. If you were to rely on standard job adverts posted online, the vast majority are only for Thai nationals and that unfortunately rules out foreigners under most circumstances - this means that foreigners can be unemployed in Thailand for many months at a time because there are simply not enough jobs open to foreigners here in Thailand. Basically you need to do some networking to find someone to hire you. The rest is a piece of cake - WP for foreigners in Thailand are easy.

Try China - you need to pay bribe after bribe because at every turn they will complain about how you are taking away a job from a local but in a country with an increasingly large unemployment problem with many graduates not able to find work after graduation, the situation over there is quite different from Thailand.

[The Kiltmaker]

Well, UK Immigration is pretty tough on Thai's so this is probably not a bad thing.

[neverdie]

So you're in Mahachai, Samut Sakorn province? Every Thai knows that area is predominantly Burmese, with many of the seafood process workers and fishermen Burmese, unfortunately a lot exploited and forced to work under almost slave like conditions.

The only other even more Burmese area is Mae Sot, which conveniently is located next to the Myanmar border town of Myawady. There are signs and billboards in Burmese, in some instances instead of Thai. It's also funny how there are billboards for the new Home Mart or whatever it's called in Mae Sot, placed ONLY in BURMESE at the Tak-Mae Sot intersection, some 80km from Mae Sot. Umm...first of all, how many Thais can read Burmese? Secondly, how many Burmese have cars, drive around Thailand and expect to read Burmese signs (not to mention the fact that Burmese cars aren't allowed to travel further than Mae Sot)? Burmese signs make sense in Mae Sot, but not in Tak, especially if they are not also accompanied by Thai and/or Thai/English.

Correct.

You are also correct that many of them work in the Seafood factories and I am aware of the absolutely abhorrent conditions that some of them are forced to work under inboard fishing vessels etc. But they also work in a lot of other types of factories as well. There are also a lot of them working on construction sites, factories as well as housing. I've had them approach our property asking to work in their spare time, they want to garden and the like. I've seen them working as gardners in many of the housing estates in the area.

Several years ago they moved into shanties on some vacant land near our place and I use to track through there in the early mornings on my daily jog and that's about the time I started finding dog skulls everywhere.....the soi dog population was steadily reducing. That land has since been turned into factories and they've moved on elsewhere.

From memory they first appeared about 15 odd years ago and steadily increased in number, however about 5-6 years ago their numbers exploded, as has the number of factories. I'm really not sure how many are legal and how many arnt, anyone's guess really. HOWEVER, I will say this in our area the ATM's have the language option for Thai, English & Burmese. There's heaps of signs in their text. There are children born to them that attend Thai public schools. So,having said that, there absolutely must be a fair percentage of them that are 'legal' but really I've got no idea.

[samran]

How boring is to hear this trite mantra all the time. You want to know ?

My country, as many other countries do the following:

• Recognize the opportunity and the need for everyone to search an improvement in life
• Offers a clear legal and social framework to immigrants
• Opens our free schools to child of any nationality to teach our language and what we recognize are universal values
• Gives immigrant full legal rights, the same as our citizens.
• Maintains IDCs of human and decent conditions
• Allow foreigners to hold unlimited property in form of real estate or company stock.
• Provides access to free healthcare to any legal resident, and free emergency healthcare to anyone indiscriminately
• Does not preclude foreigners from any trade or profession except few related to national security.
• Combats corruptions and does not tolerate officer's abuse.
• Does not require anyone to go for nonsense border or visa runs if residency provisions are met

Of course, not all these things work perfectly 100% all the time, but at least that's the idea, and the law.

The day that Thailand will achieve one only of the points above, that day a cop General will be in a position to speak about what other countries do for Thai's.

So based on Thailand lacking those things, you consider it acceptable for people to essentially live in Thailand by using tourist visas year after year?

Even though that is not the purpose of a tourist visa? I don't see how Thailand lacking those things you listed give people the right to abuse the visa system.

Maybe you can enlighten me.

The issue is contributors to society or cost upon society.

The westerner who comes here, for however long, and doesnt work in Thailand is purely a contributor, they must support themselves in all aspects and get nothing from the government. They are purely a contributor.

The Thai that goes to the west, will be able to take advantage of economic positives, higher paid work, free benefits and a clear and simple path to citizenship. They do contribute, if working, but very often far less than they receive.

Yes the systems should be designed for the maximum benefit of a society, to allow contributors and restrict those who are a net drain. Both should be maximized to the full extent of the visa and immigration policy.

Makes perfect sense no ??

People focus on the 'benefits' migrants get 'back home' as if they are all lazy sods sitting on the dole.

People think 'Thailand doesn't have these things, therefore I can be nothing less that gods gift to the country'

What they haven't, or are too self interested to mention is that all the infrastructure they see around them is tax payer funded. The doctor they visit was trained at the tax payers expense. The diesel fuel they buy is subsidised, so is the first 150 units of electricity. If they are buying a locally made car they are buying into an industry which is hidden behind huge tariff walls and is the beneficiary of huge government tax breaks.

And people have the gaul to say 'Thailand gives me nothing' when the most they pay is VAT on their shopping but get all of the above and more? No income tax. No corporate tax.

So I don't quite buy the 'I am a net benefit contributor/my sh!t doesn't stink' argument. There is plenty of take, just not in what you chose to disclose.

Am I anti immigrant? No. Far from. Id like Thailand to be able to attract business and entrepreneurs. But at least have an honest argument here and who gets what and how much people contribute.

[samran]

So you're in Mahachai, Samut Sakorn province? Every Thai knows that area is predominantly Burmese, with many of the seafood process workers and fishermen Burmese, unfortunately a lot exploited and forced to work under almost slave like conditions.

The only other even more Burmese area is Mae Sot, which conveniently is located next to the Myanmar border town of Myawady. There are signs and billboards in Burmese, in some instances instead of Thai. It's also funny how there are billboards for the new Home Mart or whatever it's called in Mae Sot, placed ONLY in BURMESE at the Tak-Mae Sot intersection, some 80km from Mae Sot. Umm...first of all, how many Thais can read Burmese? Secondly, how many Burmese have cars, drive around Thailand and expect to read Burmese signs (not to mention the fact that Burmese cars aren't allowed to travel further than Mae Sot)? Burmese signs make sense in Mae Sot, but not in Tak, especially if they are not also accompanied by Thai and/or Thai/English.

Correct.

You are also correct that many of them work in the Seafood factories and I am aware of the absolutely abhorrent conditions that some of them are forced to work under inboard fishing vessels etc. But they also work in a lot of other types of factories as well. There are also a lot of them working on construction sites, factories as well as housing. I've had them approach our property asking to work in their spare time, they want to garden and the like. I've seen them working as gardners in many of the housing estates in the area.

Several years ago they moved into shanties on some vacant land near our place and I use to track through there in the early mornings on my daily jog and that's about the time I started finding dog skulls everywhere.....the soi dog population was steadily reducing. That land has since been turned into factories and they've moved on elsewhere.

From memory they first appeared about 15 odd years ago and steadily increased in number, however about 5-6 years ago their numbers exploded, as has the number of factories. I'm really not sure how many are legal and how many arnt, anyone's guess really. HOWEVER, I will say this in our area the ATM's have the language option for Thai, English & Burmese. There's heaps of signs in their text. There are children born to them that attend Thai public schools. So,having said that, there absolutely must be a fair percentage of them that are 'legal' but really I've got no idea.

I suspect most of them are legal. 5 or 6 years ago was when they instituted this current migrant labour scheme, which coincides with the boom of numbers you've seen.

If they dare come out of the factories it probably means they are mostly legal, otherwise they would be the target for police shakedowns.

One factory owner I spoke to years ago got all his workers signed up for the LA visas and work permits, as it was cheaper than the 10,000 per illegal worker shakedown the police wanted from him.

[AYJAYDEE]

How boring is to hear this trite mantra all the time. You want to know ?

My country, as many other countries do the following:

• Recognize the opportunity and the need for everyone to search an improvement in life
• Offers a clear legal and social framework to immigrants
• Opens our free schools to child of any nationality to teach our language and what we recognize are universal values
• Gives immigrant full legal rights, the same as our citizens.
• Maintains IDCs of human and decent conditions
• Allow foreigners to hold unlimited property in form of real estate or company stock.
• Provides access to free healthcare to any legal resident, and free emergency healthcare to anyone indiscriminately
• Does not preclude foreigners from any trade or profession except few related to national security.
• Combats corruptions and does not tolerate officer's abuse.
• Does not require anyone to go for nonsense border or visa runs if residency provisions are met

Of course, not all these things work perfectly 100% all the time, but at least that's the idea, and the law.

The day that Thailand will achieve one only of the points above, that day a cop General will be in a position to speak about what other countries do for Thai's.

So based on Thailand lacking those things, you consider it acceptable for people to essentially live in Thailand by using tourist visas year after year?

Even though that is not the purpose of a tourist visa? I don't see how Thailand lacking those things you listed give people the right to abuse the visa system.

Maybe you can enlighten me.

The issue is contributors to society or cost upon society.

The westerner who comes here, for however long, and doesnt work in Thailand is purely a contributor, they must support themselves in all aspects and get nothing from the government. They are purely a contributor.

The Thai that goes to the west, will be able to take advantage of economic positives, higher paid work, free benefits and a clear and simple path to citizenship. They do contribute, if working, but very often far less than they receive.

Yes the systems should be designed for the maximum benefit of a society, to allow contributors and restrict those who are a net drain. Both should be maximized to the full extent of the visa and immigration policy.

Makes perfect sense no ??

People focus on the 'benefits' migrants get 'back home' as if they are all lazy sods sitting on the dole.

People think 'Thailand doesn't have these things, therefore I can be nothing less that gods gift to the country'

What they haven't, or are too self interested to mention is that all the infrastructure they see around them is tax payer funded. The doctor they visit was trained at the tax payers expense. The diesel fuel they buy is subsidised, so is the first 150 units of electricity. If they are buying a locally made car they are buying into an industry which is hidden behind huge tariff walls and is the beneficiary of huge government tax breaks.

And people have the gaul to say 'Thailand gives me nothing' when the most they pay is VAT on their shopping but get all of the above and more? No income tax. No corporate tax.

So I don't quite buy the 'I am a net benefit contributor/my sh!t doesn't stink' argument. There is plenty of take, just not in what you chose to disclose.

Am I anti immigrant? No. Far from. Id like Thailand to be able to attract business and entrepreneurs. But at least have an honest argument here and who gets what and how much people contribute.

well said. they drive on roads built with tax dollars and send their kids to schoool built with tax dollars etc etc and yet they pay no tax themselves

[samran]

I get fed up with the mantra 'they make it so hard for us to get work permits here'.

Now I must take issue with you Samran, because here in Phuket it is not always that easy to get a WP. I have worked in Phuket, but my 2 initial applications (many years ago) for a WP were rejected by Phuket Labour Office, without reason, (all company documents, employed Thais etc correct). Then my lawyer made a 'small' change to my application involving xx,000 baht and voila! I get my WP.

Fast-forward to this year and I am applying again for a WP (as manager of my new little resort). All paperwork is correct, but my lawyer has warned me that I will not get that WP unless I pay around 50,000 baht bribe.

(BTW, this is not my lawyer trying to rip me off - I have used 2 different lawyers (1 foreign, 1 Thai) for over a decade in Phuket, with very low fees and good service).

So in my efforts to stay legal, I am forced to break the law by paying bribes.......

I wish it were not so, but obtaining a WP in Phuket is not always straightforward at all.

Simon

My experiences are totally different. Sounds to me like there is something wrong with the information/paperwork.

I've got a lot of time for simon43. He's a doer and Thailand should be more supportive of people like him. I'm not naive to think that bribery doesn't occur here.

At the same time any time a Thai immigrant lawyer talks about bribes being needed it makes me suspicious. I think in many cases they are just lining their own pockets.

[stevenl]

I get fed up with the mantra 'they make it so hard for us to get work permits here'.

Now I must take issue with you Samran, because here in Phuket it is not always that easy to get a WP. I have worked in Phuket, but my 2 initial applications (many years ago) for a WP were rejected by Phuket Labour Office, without reason, (all company documents, employed Thais etc correct). Then my lawyer made a 'small' change to my application involving xx,000 baht and voila! I get my WP.

Fast-forward to this year and I am applying again for a WP (as manager of my new little resort). All paperwork is correct, but my lawyer has warned me that I will not get that WP unless I pay around 50,000 baht bribe.

(BTW, this is not my lawyer trying to rip me off - I have used 2 different lawyers (1 foreign, 1 Thai) for over a decade in Phuket, with very low fees and good service).

So in my efforts to stay legal, I am forced to break the law by paying bribes.......

I wish it were not so, but obtaining a WP in Phuket is not always straightforward at all.

Simon

My experiences are totally different. Sounds to me like there is something wrong with the information/paperwork.

I've got a lot of time for simon43. He's a doer and Thailand should be more supportive of people like him. I'm not naive to think that bribery doesn't occur here.

At the same time any time a Thai immigrant lawyer talks about bribes being needed it makes me suspicious. I think in many cases they are just lining their own pockets.

The main thing for me is: there is no way that an application is refused without explanation. There is something else going on there, no idea what though.

Edited May 19, 2014 by stevenl

[LivinLOS]

"what is the definition of a resident, what is the definition of a tourist"

And this is clearly the nut of the problem.

There is no problem whatsoever with Thailand making it rules. But rules must be clear, must be understood, must not have large grey areas and too much discretion placed in the hands of (often corrupt) and unprofessional people.

What exactly is the difference between a long stay tourist and a short term resident ?? It must be defined.

Is it money source ??

Is it time incountry ??

Is it tickets out ??

Is it having a home ?? What if you maintain 2 ?? Or more ??

Is it travelling around to visit sites and attractions ??

It cannot be 'you have too many stamps' based on a 30 second scan of the pages, it must have a decent and clear metric.. That is applied equally to all.. Airlines will have to manage this issue at check in. It needs to be precise not one persons 'feeling'..

Having spent the morning digging around on this site and others I can define resident from

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

"Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand."

So if you are an offshore oil and gas worker on equal time on/off employed by an overseas employer you should not be classed as a "Resident" of Thailand, but if you have a home available to you here are you taken to be "residing in Thailand", even if you are physically not present whilst at work. If you get a 30 day stamp at the airport each time you arrive and leave before it expires can you be a frequent tourist who happens to like visiting Thailand for 28 days six or seven times a year or are you "residing in Thailand" because your wife happens to own a house which you stay in when you are in Thailand, and does getting an "extension of stay based on marriage" change any of this.

Oh well, hopefully somebody will enlighten us

Well you can dig all you like.. Thai would say your allowed 180 days in any one tax year.. Yet the boss of immigration has clearly stated, even someone doing their first visa run, if they are suspected of not being a tourist they will be denied entry.

First visa run does not equal 180 days does it ?? So kind of makes that theory look a little weak.

[LivinLOS]

Because ultimately most developed nations are not that xenophobic in actual policy. We encourage integration and naturalization, we dont for example brand people as 'oi you.. Foreigner' when we speak to them, etc etc..

Hmmm where do you live? Utopia? How to explain the rise of UKIP in the UK and other extreme right, xenophobic parties in Europe?

And why the rise of the UKIP ?? Because by joining the EU project theres no control of the borders !!

Theres nothing wrong with defining who contributes to society and who takes from it, the UKIPs position as far as I have seen it is they want contributor not takers.

[LivinLOS]

Well, UK Immigration is pretty tough on Thai's so this is probably not a bad thing.

I havent found this at all.. And I have taken multiple Thais there and my brothers just got his wife citizenship.

Put a million baht in their bank account, or show a healthy balance in your own and vouch for them, and I have never had any questions raised or visas refused.

Sure of they cant support themselves without resorting to illegal work or sex work, sure they are going to get a tough time. Its all about showing they have some wealth to not be a burden.

[LivinLOS]

How boring is to hear this trite mantra all the time. You want to know ?

My country, as many other countries do the following:

• Recognize the opportunity and the need for everyone to search an improvement in life
• Offers a clear legal and social framework to immigrants
• Opens our free schools to child of any nationality to teach our language and what we recognize are universal values
• Gives immigrant full legal rights, the same as our citizens.
• Maintains IDCs of human and decent conditions
• Allow foreigners to hold unlimited property in form of real estate or company stock.
• Provides access to free healthcare to any legal resident, and free emergency healthcare to anyone indiscriminately
• Does not preclude foreigners from any trade or profession except few related to national security.
• Combats corruptions and does not tolerate officer's abuse.
• Does not require anyone to go for nonsense border or visa runs if residency provisions are met

Of course, not all these things work perfectly 100% all the time, but at least that's the idea, and the law.

The day that Thailand will achieve one only of the points above, that day a cop General will be in a position to speak about what other countries do for Thai's.

So based on Thailand lacking those things, you consider it acceptable for people to essentially live in Thailand by using tourist visas year after year?

Even though that is not the purpose of a tourist visa? I don't see how Thailand lacking those things you listed give people the right to abuse the visa system.

Maybe you can enlighten me.

The issue is contributors to society or cost upon society.

The westerner who comes here, for however long, and doesnt work in Thailand is purely a contributor, they must support themselves in all aspects and get nothing from the government. They are purely a contributor.

The Thai that goes to the west, will be able to take advantage of economic positives, higher paid work, free benefits and a clear and simple path to citizenship. They do contribute, if working, but very often far less than they receive.

Yes the systems should be designed for the maximum benefit of a society, to allow contributors and restrict those who are a net drain. Both should be maximized to the full extent of the visa and immigration policy.

Makes perfect sense no ??

People focus on the 'benefits' migrants get 'back home' as if they are all lazy sods sitting on the dole.

People think 'Thailand doesn't have these things, therefore I can be nothing less that gods gift to the country'

What they haven't, or are too self interested to mention is that all the infrastructure they see around them is tax payer funded. The doctor they visit was trained at the tax payers expense. The diesel fuel they buy is subsidised, so is the first 150 units of electricity. If they are buying a locally made car they are buying into an industry which is hidden behind huge tariff walls and is the beneficiary of huge government tax breaks.

And people have the gaul to say 'Thailand gives me nothing' when the most they pay is VAT on their shopping but get all of the above and more? No income tax. No corporate tax.

So I don't quite buy the 'I am a net benefit contributor/my sh!t doesn't stink' argument. There is plenty of take, just not in what you chose to disclose.

Am I anti immigrant? No. Far from. Id like Thailand to be able to attract business and entrepreneurs. But at least have an honest argument here and who gets what and how much people contribute.

However Thailand is a country that has quite weak income tax collection and corporate tax collection and relies heavily on consumption taxes, import taxes etc.. Which we do pay and in far higher amounts than the average Thai. Farangs are far more likely to be consuming expensive wines at massive tax over domestic whisky at no tax, we consume far more imported goods. Items very often with 30% + 7% luxury goods tax.

Go buy a nice beemer, or a KTM, and tell me we are not paying taxes..

We still pay road taxes, we still pay for education or hospitals, as a high energy user you pay for where the low user people get the subsidy..

I dont think you have thought this through.

[Boo]

off topic post & reply to it removed.

[Chivas]

“From August 13, if we suspect any foreigner of working illegally in Thailand on a tourist visa, that person will be detained and deported, even if the foreigner has not previously completed even a single visa run,” he said.

“People who are deported will be banned from re-entering Thailand for five years, not forever. After that, the foreigner may appeal to re-enter the country.

Hmmm... so say someone has a bunch of VISA exempt stamps / tourist VISAs in their passport and/or an overstay, then leaves Thailand via BKK airport. If the immigration officer decides you've been here too long, they're now going to officially detain and deport you, meaning a few days in the IDC while it goes through a judge and gets processed?

Or are they just going to blacklist you for 5 years on the stop then & there, and still let you get on your flight?

You're spot on........Can see multiple issues across the board with this one !

[samran]

How boring is to hear this trite mantra all the time. You want to know ?

My country, as many other countries do the following:

• Recognize the opportunity and the need for everyone to search an improvement in life
• Offers a clear legal and social framework to immigrants
• Opens our free schools to child of any nationality to teach our language and what we recognize are universal values
• Gives immigrant full legal rights, the same as our citizens.
• Maintains IDCs of human and decent conditions
• Allow foreigners to hold unlimited property in form of real estate or company stock.
• Provides access to free healthcare to any legal resident, and free emergency healthcare to anyone indiscriminately
• Does not preclude foreigners from any trade or profession except few related to national security.
• Combats corruptions and does not tolerate officer's abuse.
• Does not require anyone to go for nonsense border or visa runs if residency provisions are met

Of course, not all these things work perfectly 100% all the time, but at least that's the idea, and the law.

The day that Thailand will achieve one only of the points above, that day a cop General will be in a position to speak about what other countries do for Thai's.

So based on Thailand lacking those things, you consider it acceptable for people to essentially live in Thailand by using tourist visas year after year?

Even though that is not the purpose of a tourist visa? I don't see how Thailand lacking those things you listed give people the right to abuse the visa system.

Maybe you can enlighten me.

The issue is contributors to society or cost upon society.

The westerner who comes here, for however long, and doesnt work in Thailand is purely a contributor, they must support themselves in all aspects and get nothing from the government. They are purely a contributor.

The Thai that goes to the west, will be able to take advantage of economic positives, higher paid work, free benefits and a clear and simple path to citizenship. They do contribute, if working, but very often far less than they receive.

Yes the systems should be designed for the maximum benefit of a society, to allow contributors and restrict those who are a net drain. Both should be maximized to the full extent of the visa and immigration policy.

Makes perfect sense no ??

People focus on the 'benefits' migrants get 'back home' as if they are all lazy sods sitting on the dole.

People think 'Thailand doesn't have these things, therefore I can be nothing less that gods gift to the country'

What they haven't, or are too self interested to mention is that all the infrastructure they see around them is tax payer funded. The doctor they visit was trained at the tax payers expense. The diesel fuel they buy is subsidised, so is the first 150 units of electricity. If they are buying a locally made car they are buying into an industry which is hidden behind huge tariff walls and is the beneficiary of huge government tax breaks.

And people have the gaul to say 'Thailand gives me nothing' when the most they pay is VAT on their shopping but get all of the above and more? No income tax. No corporate tax.

So I don't quite buy the 'I am a net benefit contributor/my sh!t doesn't stink' argument. There is plenty of take, just not in what you chose to disclose.

Am I anti immigrant? No. Far from. Id like Thailand to be able to attract business and entrepreneurs. But at least have an honest argument here and who gets what and how much people contribute.

However Thailand is a country that has quite weak income tax collection and corporate tax collection and relies heavily on consumption taxes, import taxes etc.. Which we do pay and in far higher amounts than the average Thai. Farangs are far more likely to be consuming expensive wines at massive tax over domestic whisky at no tax, we consume far more imported goods. Items very often with 30% + 7% luxury goods tax.

Go buy a nice beemer, or a KTM, and tell me we are not paying taxes..

We still pay road taxes, we still pay for education or hospitals, as a high energy user you pay for where the low user people get the subsidy..

I dont think you have thought this through.

I've actually thought about this a bit. The point of my post was to ask for an honest debate about all the costs and benfits.

Many people blithely claim that they take nothing from Thailand and overestimate their contribution. That was my point.

[neverdie]

So you're in Mahachai, Samut Sakorn province? Every Thai knows that area is predominantly Burmese, with many of the seafood process workers and fishermen Burmese, unfortunately a lot exploited and forced to work under almost slave like conditions.

The only other even more Burmese area is Mae Sot, which conveniently is located next to the Myanmar border town of Myawady. There are signs and billboards in Burmese, in some instances instead of Thai. It's also funny how there are billboards for the new Home Mart or whatever it's called in Mae Sot, placed ONLY in BURMESE at the Tak-Mae Sot intersection, some 80km from Mae Sot. Umm...first of all, how many Thais can read Burmese? Secondly, how many Burmese have cars, drive around Thailand and expect to read Burmese signs (not to mention the fact that Burmese cars aren't allowed to travel further than Mae Sot)? Burmese signs make sense in Mae Sot, but not in Tak, especially if they are not also accompanied by Thai and/or Thai/English.

Correct.

You are also correct that many of them work in the Seafood factories and I am aware of the absolutely abhorrent conditions that some of them are forced to work under inboard fishing vessels etc. But they also work in a lot of other types of factories as well. There are also a lot of them working on construction sites, factories as well as housing. I've had them approach our property asking to work in their spare time, they want to garden and the like. I've seen them working as gardners in many of the housing estates in the area.

Several years ago they moved into shanties on some vacant land near our place and I use to track through there in the early mornings on my daily jog and that's about the time I started finding dog skulls everywhere.....the soi dog population was steadily reducing. That land has since been turned into factories and they've moved on elsewhere.

From memory they first appeared about 15 odd years ago and steadily increased in number, however about 5-6 years ago their numbers exploded, as has the number of factories. I'm really not sure how many are legal and how many arnt, anyone's guess really. HOWEVER, I will say this in our area the ATM's have the language option for Thai, English & Burmese. There's heaps of signs in their text. There are children born to them that attend Thai public schools. So,having said that, there absolutely must be a fair percentage of them that are 'legal' but really I've got no idea.

I suspect most of them are legal. 5 or 6 years ago was when they instituted this current migrant labour scheme, which coincides with the boom of numbers you've seen.

If they dare come out of the factories it probably means they are mostly legal, otherwise they would be the target for police shakedowns.

One factory owner I spoke to years ago got all his workers signed up for the LA visas and work permits, as it was cheaper than the 10,000 per illegal worker shakedown the police wanted from him.

No worries mate. Thanks for the info. I've got no issues with them and have even learnt a few words as some of them I've been seeing for years, your info all adds up. Every now and then I see the police with a pick up load of them, which I assumed were perhaps illegals hiding amongst the others.

Overall, for me, it's just the sheer numbers that's surprising.

[DrTuner]

Shouldn't be that difficult to figure out the amount that makes you a net contributor. For retirement extensions its 800k. I think the rationale was at 800k/y brought to the country, you're paying enough taxes for the privilege to stay here. That's around 70k/month.

If I had to guess, I think Thailand would be at +-0 when a foreigner brings in around 10t baht per month. Most who have any money use private hospitals, schools, pay large taxes for automobiles, so while subsidized by government, the sum they get back isn't huge.

[LivinLOS]

I've actually thought about this a bit. The point of my post was to ask for an honest debate about all the costs and benfits.

Many people blithely claim that they take nothing from Thailand and overestimate their contribution. That was my point.

Ok have a think then..

What do we get subsidized here ?? Electricity, my 10k a month electric bill I am pretty sure outweighs the subsidy on the first 150 units for poor people. And good, let the really poor have a subsidy from me, I dont mind, but dont say Iam not paying.

Then compare to what we get taxed in consumption taxes ?? The luxury goods taxes, on wines, products, German cars and Austrian motorbikes, the kind of person spending 200k a month is paying those far in excess of any subsidies I may be getting.