Suthep vows to surrender, stop rallies by May 27 if remaining Cabinet members not resign

[hands22]

@ashwell28....what a wonderful and solid 1st post! Thank you.

[Publicus]

Obviously, you don't realise that when Suthep was in government corruption was at its highest with Khun Suthep the biggest "nose in the trough" So what good do you think the Dems would ever be in government again. They are finished, bye bye to Abishit and his boss Suthep..............on the garbage heap.

you are spreading malicious rumors, so beware of that stat!ement

So now comes the censorship and the enforcement of censorship by the self appointed censors who will defend truth and justice as defined by themselves only.

Truth or even personal opinion now instead become the circulating of "malicious rumors" which means the speaker needs to "beware" of any such statement considered seditious by the self appointed censors.

Many sources have pointed out Suthep's history of corruption whether as a minister or as an MP only. Suthep resigned as an MP so he could avoid a conviction that would have removed him from both his position as an MP and also as deputy prime minister - by resigning as an MP Suthep was able to preserve his position as a deputy PM.

The endgame here is more than obvious.

All this dung talk because of a diabolical government.

You are inside out, backwards, upside down.

First and foremost is that government via its authority and power distributes the resources of the country among the population and it regulates behaviors in the utilization of resources. Government budgets and the specific programs the budget funds determine the priorities of distributing the country's resources.

Choosing up sides to advocate a particular party in government rather than another is largely determined by one's socio-economic status, situation, circumstance, in the society as a whole.

To the broad swathe of the population of the North, a democratic government is seen as their ticket to participate in the distribution of the country's resources, from agriculture, to commerce, to industry, to the service economy, to education etc.

To the Bangkok ammarts, a Thai version of Plato's elite guardians is the only form of government that is acceptable. Rule by the elites guarantees preservation of the Thai historical feudal order of elite rule and control by the elites over the nation's resources, natural, physical infrastructure, human, and of the institutions that administer the distribution of resources and which regulate behaviors in specific terms.

I reiterate to you specifically that people who violently attack innocent voters at the polls and that campaign militantly and forcefully to stop democracy absolutely cannot be believed or trusted when they say they are democratic and promise to respect, hold, conduct elections. No one has ever improved democracy by forcefully or violently stopping it.

After 1000 years of absolute rule in Russia we see what Russian democracy looks like and it ain't pretty, but it does have a long term future as Putin's vote totals continue to decrease, in Moscow and in other urban areas especially. After 5000 years of dictatorship in China we see what Chinese government, society, culture look like - in a word, miserable. Thailand has had less than a century of a tenuous and limited democracy which is unstable not because the Thai people cannot ever self-govern, but instead because of the mess the ammart have made of Thailand since early in the 20th century.

[ginjag]

So now comes the censorship and the enforcement of censorship by the self appointed censors who will defend truth and justice as defined by themselves only.

Truth or even personal opinion now instead become the circulating of "malicious rumors" which means the speaker needs to "beware" of any such statement considered seditious by the self appointed censors.

Many sources have pointed out Suthep's history of corruption whether as a minister or as an MP only. Suthep resigned as an MP so he could avoid a conviction that would have removed him from both his position as an MP and also as deputy prime minister - by resigning as an MP Suthep was able to preserve his position as a deputy PM.

The endgame here is more than obvious.

All this dung talk because of a diabolical government.

You are inside out, backwards, upside down.

First and foremost is that government via its authority and power distributes the resources of the country among the population and it regulates behaviors in the utilization of resources. Government budgets and the specific programs the budget funds determine the priorities of distributing the country's resources.

Choosing up sides to advocate a particular party in government rather than another is largely determined by one's socio-economic status, situation, circumstance, in the society as a whole.

To the broad swathe of the population of the North, a democratic government is seen as their ticket to participate in the distribution of the country's resources, from agriculture, to commerce, to industry, to the service economy, to education etc.

To the Bangkok ammarts, a Thai version of Plato's elite guardians is the only form of government that is acceptable. Rule by the elites guarantees preservation of the Thai historical feudal order of elite rule and control by the elites over the nation's resources, natural, physical infrastructure, human, and of the institutions that administer the distribution of resources and which regulate behaviors in specific terms.

I reiterate to you specifically that people who violently attack innocent voters at the polls and that campaign militantly and forcefully to stop democracy absolutely cannot be believed or trusted when they say they are democratic and promise to respect, hold, conduct elections. No one has ever improved democracy by forcefully or violently stopping it.

After 1000 years of absolute rule in Russia we see what Russian democracy looks like and it ain't pretty, but it does have a long term future as Putin's vote totals continue to decrease, in Moscow and in other urban areas especially. After 5000 years of dictatorship in China we see what Chinese government, society, culture look like - in a word, miserable. Thailand has had less than a century of a tenuous and limited democracy which is unstable not because the Thai people cannot ever self-govern, but instead because of the mess the ammart have made of Thailand since early in the 20th century.

Just a pity the government did not near deliver what it promised, the election/poll chaos is not what I condone, but it should never have taken place, it was warned.

Governing is all I criticize, so from now on just post about it in a reply, I do not want a saga from you on history or Suthep or a.n.other.

Please post and tell me of all the government have achieved in 3 years, if you cannot I have my answer regarding the regime. Nothing more--post a list.

If it not forth coming you will have also answered other posters. THIS aftermath is not in my interest, only the cause.

[Baerboxer]

I do not understand why people follow this guy, they suppose to be the educated ones. The education 'system' must be seriously wrong here ...

Or there again, maybe you need to address why you can't understand.

Most Thais I know, across all social and educational levels, believe the Shins to be the most corrupt and untrustworthy administration they've ever experienced. They do not want Thaksin to be absolved of his crimes, allowed home free and elevated to some sort of venerated role whilst continuing his own brand of politics and idea of democracy. They want change. But they don't know how to effect that change and have no real choices of leaders to drive it. Suthep, for many, plugs that gap. They tolerate his extremes and shady past because he was the only one seemingly who was prepared to actually take action. They use him as a focal point, rather than follow him, using the Western concept of following a leader. He's a means to an end. That end is to remove the Thaksin controlled PTP pretence that has so damaged this country. The problem is, they haven't got anyone to replace them. They don't see the dangers of allowing someone like Suthep and is hard core supporters to take full control and think he'll just make some reforms before handing power back to the people through elections. It's more a political naievity rather than ardent support of another undemocratic leader. They see Suthep as being a less onerous choice than Thaksin and his clan.

Yesterday a took a taxi from Dong Meuang. The taxi driver spoke very good English and spent several minutes complaining how PTP was ruining Thailand. This is the second driver in several days to really slate the Shins. Ordinary people have simply had enough with an administration that has repeatedly lied, cheated, proved incapable, took turns at jobs based on nepotism and cronyism and enriched themselves - in a very open and arrogant way. It is this arrogance and flaunting that has turned so many away from them, not the attractiveness of the alternatives.

The "educated" as you call them, at least the ones I know, are anti-Thaksin regimes. The amount against these regimes has grown as each successive regime has continued to act like the previous one. Unfortunately they don't have the serious alternatives nor the adequate justice systems that most Western democracies posses to avoid the malaise that Thailand currently suffers from.

[Just1Voice]

As a new member it's a bit disappointing to see so many posters slagging each other off, Clearly, members are as polarised as the Thai public, and I can understand each side having entrenched views on which they are not prepared to budge. Also, I note one particular poster getting his oar in every time anyone challenges his viewpoint. My goodness, 7,000+ posts - is that how you get to be an Advanced Member? My own view - and I hope I don't get banned for saying this - is that the moderators should intervene more often a) to cut drown on the pointless repeat rants and to turn this whole forum discussion into something more resembling a civilised debate

Let me make my non-political contribution to this new, more rational debate by introducing a few topics which I believe are worthy of further thought and discussion:-

- Thailand was an absolute monarchy until 1932 - compare and contrast with Western countries, eg. the UK, France, Russia. Bear in mind that Thailand was never colonised, whereas most other countries in Asia were or were under Western financial control (viz the Shanghai banking system de-camping to Hong Kong in 1949 when Mao Tse Dung took over China)

- Since 1932, Thailand has had 18 coup d'etats - why?

- each time, the main reason for overthrowing Thai governments was that they were CORRUPT

- interesting quote: "Corruption and bribery in all sectors have been on the rise. Most politicians were elected because of vote-buying and achieved a return on their investments by selling themselves to pass biased resolutions or corrupt budget bills. To win an election, an MP would pay around five hundred baht (10-20 USD) per person, totalling 10 to 30 million baht for a single election"

- Is this aimed at the recent Thaksin-led regimes? No, it refers to MOST Thai governments post-1988, so let's look at them:

- Chatichai government 1988-1991: On 23 February 1991, the military deposed Chatichai's government in a coup d'état. They accused the elected government of massive corruption and abuse of power for its own advantage. They charged several cabinet members, including Chatichai, with "unusual wealth"

- Chuan Leekpai (Democrat-led) 1st administration 1992-95: this was probably the most corrupt government in recent Thai political history by the number of cabinet members involved in corruption scandals and by amount of money embezzled. Interestingly, most commentators agree that the government was brought down by corrupt practices of the then Minister of Transport who brokered illegal land deals and used government funds to set up private co-operative ventures. This guy's name was - wait for it - Suthep Thaugsuban. So it seems he has experience in bringing down governments, including one he served in! Let's remind ourselves, too, that Suthep was forced to resign as an MP in 2009 when it was found that he held equity in a media firm which received concessions from the government

- Banharn (Chart Thai) government (1995-96): this PM was called Mr ATM by Thais for his habit of doling out money (usually under the table) for political favours.

- Chavalit (New Aspiration Party) government (1996-1997): the general and former head of the army patched together a coalition representing the interests of business elites, provincial bosses and local godfathers. And, I assume, the military. Say no more!

- Chuan Leekpai 2nd administration (1997-2001): this government was under the supervision of the IMF following the 1997 Asian Economic Crisis. Not surprisingly, it lost credibility when the country plunged into recession and 1 million Thais (guess where?) fell under the poverty line. This is the context under which we need to understand the rise of the populist Thaksin

- Thaksin 1st administration (2001-2005): TS won the election on an anti-IMF (i.e.. anti-austerity) program with three major spending pledges which contradicted the IMF edicts: moratorium on farmers' debts plus new credit lines; medical treatment for all at 30 baht; one million baht for each district to spend as it wished. This is the administration which cemented Thaksin's huge popularity amongst the rural and urban poor and has helped keep his various parties & coalitions in power ever since

- Thaksin 2nd administration (2005-2006): this is where TS overreached himself and things started to go wrong: using government to to favour his own businesses; subverting the press; buying allies and buying off opponents; the war on drugs, the Shin Corporation tax scandal etc etc.

- From 2006 onwards, events are fairly fresh in our minds. The rise of the opposition PAD, formation of UDD, the beginning of polarisation leading to the 2006 coup. It is worth reminding ourselves what the military junta actually did: They cancelled the upcoming elections, abrogated the Constitution, dissolved Parliament and Constitutional Court, banned protests and all political activities, suppressed and censored the media, declared martial law nationwide, and arrested Cabinet members. The new rulers appointed retired General Surayud Chulanont Premier. Martial law was lifted in 41 of Thailand's 76 provinces on 26 January 2007 but remained in place in another 35 provinces. Elections were held on 23 December 2007, after a military-appointed tribunal outlawed the Thai Rak Thai Party and banned TRT executives from contesting in elections for 5 years.

- My emphasis here is to highlight the fact that the first really popularly-approved 2007 Constitution was torn up and replaced by the army's (elite's) own constitution. It is also worth noting that they disbanded the then Constitutional Court and brought in their own Charter Court with a different composition. Part of the aim, of course, was to find something which they could stick on Thaksin to get him out of the way, a perfectly understandable tactic from their point of view, but a major factor in the current divisions of opinion, with one side saying he was set up by the elites and the others saying he was a crook who deserved his prison sentence. I will leave it to you to compare Thaksin's treatment by the courts and the treatment of the other Thai Rak Thai-associated PM's with the way other corrupt PM's have been treated (see below)

- General Surayud government (206-2008): This is the general who wanted the military out of politics. One of the reasons then-Prime Minister Chuan Leekpai picked Gen Surayud as Army Chief was because of the general's outspoken opinion - after the 1991 coup d’etat - that the army should never again get involved in government! After becoming Premier in 2006, he was accused of illegally owning forest land in Khao Yai Mountain. In February 2010 - after demonstrations by the "Red Shirts" at Khao Yai Mountain - Surayud, who by then had already left politics, returned the land to the Royal Forestry Department when it was found that the land was indeed located within forest reserve land. The plot of land is now under the Royal Forestry Department's care. However, up until now, no legal action has been taken by Thai authorities against him, This - together with Thaksin's case and the case against PM Samak (see below) - has been interpreted by the Red Shirts as an example of double standards by the judiciary. Worth mentioning here also the fate of the armed thugs who stormed the control tower at Suvarnabhumi airport (I'm not referring to the protesters who occupied the terminals). In what other country in the world would the perpetrators of such an attack get off scot-free? There are plenty of images and reports testifying to this in the press of the time.

- Samak government People's Power (2008): this is the PM who was removed from office for getting paid to appear on a TV cooking show. What a criminal!

- Somchai government People's Power (2008): Thaksin's brother-in-law didn't fare much better; he was removed and the party banned for election fraud

- Abhisit government (2008-2011): at last the Democrats got back into power with a little help from the army and the defection of the Friends of Newin faction from the disbanded PPP. In three years, you would have thought that they could have introduced at least some the urgent reforms they are now saying must be implemented before another election is held!

- Yingluk government (2011-2013): this re-incarnation of the ousted PPP was elected on a landslide majority and proved that TS was still calling the shots from behind the scenes. Obviously, this was more than the elites could stomach; before, every party/coalition got its turn at the "feeding trough"; now TS and his cronies were running off with every election due to the fact that they bribed the ignorant "buffaloes" in the North and North East. This raises another important issue which needs debating: all of Suthep's "campaign" has been Bangkok-based; he tried to close down Bangkok without much success. But Bangkok is not Thailand. The greatest fear of the elites is that someone like Thaksin will use democratic processes to undermine their power base. Many of Suthep's supporters have thrown out the line that the rural poor are not educated enough to be given a vote; that is why he is proposing that only he and his elitist friends be permitted to "choose" an interim PM and government

​- Yingluk caretaker government: (2013-?): so here we are pretty well up-to-date. The caretaker government limps on, and the elites are trying to figure out how to force it out. Watch this space!

All this is to make the important point that this is a class struggle in the traditional sense - a play for power with the old order trying to cling to its privileged position against a nascent democracy (with all its faults). And dominating the whole chaotic political scene in Thailand is the fear of the greater chaos which might ensue on the inevitable royal succession.

I have lived here now for 17 years and am hunkering down for more of the same. As the Chinese curse says: "May you live in interesting times"

Excellent Post clearly pointing out actual facts, though there are those will undoubtedly "refute" them. Good job.

[55Jay]

I do not understand why people follow this guy, they suppose to be the educated ones. The education 'system' must be seriously wrong here ...

Or there again, maybe you need to address why you can't understand.

Most Thais I know, across all social and educational levels, believe the Shins to be the most corrupt and untrustworthy administration they've ever experienced. They do not want Thaksin to be absolved of his crimes, allowed home free and elevated to some sort of venerated role whilst continuing his own brand of politics and idea of democracy. They want change. But they don't know how to effect that change and have no real choices of leaders to drive it. Suthep, for many, plugs that gap. They tolerate his extremes and shady past because he was the only one seemingly who was prepared to actually take action. They use him as a focal point, rather than follow him, using the Western concept of following a leader. He's a means to an end. That end is to remove the Thaksin controlled PTP pretence that has so damaged this country. The problem is, they haven't got anyone to replace them. They don't see the dangers of allowing someone like Suthep and is hard core supporters to take full control and think he'll just make some reforms before handing power back to the people through elections. It's more a political naievity rather than ardent support of another undemocratic leader. They see Suthep as being a less onerous choice than Thaksin and his clan.

Yesterday a took a taxi from Dong Meuang. The taxi driver spoke very good English and spent several minutes complaining how PTP was ruining Thailand. This is the second driver in several days to really slate the Shins. Ordinary people have simply had enough with an administration that has repeatedly lied, cheated, proved incapable, took turns at jobs based on nepotism and cronyism and enriched themselves - in a very open and arrogant way. It is this arrogance and flaunting that has turned so many away from them, not the attractiveness of the alternatives.

The "educated" as you call them, at least the ones I know, are anti-Thaksin regimes. The amount against these regimes has grown as each successive regime has continued to act like the previous one. Unfortunately they don't have the serious alternatives nor the adequate justice systems that most Western democracies posses to avoid the malaise that Thailand currently suffers from.

Nice one, thanks.

[robblok]

I do not understand why people follow this guy, they suppose to be the educated ones. The education 'system' must be seriously wrong here ...

Or there again, maybe you need to address why you can't understand.

Most Thais I know, across all social and educational levels, believe the Shins to be the most corrupt and untrustworthy administration they've ever experienced. They do not want Thaksin to be absolved of his crimes, allowed home free and elevated to some sort of venerated role whilst continuing his own brand of politics and idea of democracy. They want change. But they don't know how to effect that change and have no real choices of leaders to drive it. Suthep, for many, plugs that gap. They tolerate his extremes and shady past because he was the only one seemingly who was prepared to actually take action. They use him as a focal point, rather than follow him, using the Western concept of following a leader. He's a means to an end. That end is to remove the Thaksin controlled PTP pretence that has so damaged this country. The problem is, they haven't got anyone to replace them. They don't see the dangers of allowing someone like Suthep and is hard core supporters to take full control and think he'll just make some reforms before handing power back to the people through elections. It's more a political naievity rather than ardent support of another undemocratic leader. They see Suthep as being a less onerous choice than Thaksin and his clan.

Yesterday a took a taxi from Dong Meuang. The taxi driver spoke very good English and spent several minutes complaining how PTP was ruining Thailand. This is the second driver in several days to really slate the Shins. Ordinary people have simply had enough with an administration that has repeatedly lied, cheated, proved incapable, took turns at jobs based on nepotism and cronyism and enriched themselves - in a very open and arrogant way. It is this arrogance and flaunting that has turned so many away from them, not the attractiveness of the alternatives.

The "educated" as you call them, at least the ones I know, are anti-Thaksin regimes. The amount against these regimes has grown as each successive regime has continued to act like the previous one. Unfortunately they don't have the serious alternatives nor the adequate justice systems that most Western democracies posses to avoid the malaise that Thailand currently suffers from.

Yes i see Suthep as less bad as Taksin... but I rather not have either of them.

I have actually no problem if the reds were not so corrupt. If there are real checks and ballances that kill corruption I would not get worked up about the political situation here. But now seeing how incompetent they are I am totally anti government.

I just see Suthep as someone who will make changes.. if he does not hand over power he will be ousted too.. But change is what is needed.

[Baerboxer]

As a new member it's a bit disappointing to see so many posters slagging each other off, Clearly, members are as polarised as the Thai public, and I can understand each side having entrenched views on which they are not prepared to budge. Also, I note one particular poster getting his oar in every time anyone challenges his viewpoint. My goodness, 7,000+ posts - is that how you get to be an Advanced Member? My own view - and I hope I don't get banned for saying this - is that the moderators should intervene more often a) to cut drown on the pointless repeat rants and to turn this whole forum discussion into something more resembling a civilised debate

Let me make my non-political contribution to this new, more rational debate by introducing a few topics which I believe are worthy of further thought and discussion:-

- Thailand was an absolute monarchy until 1932 - compare and contrast with Western countries, eg. the UK, France, Russia. Bear in mind that Thailand was never colonised, whereas most other countries in Asia were or were under Western financial control (viz the Shanghai banking system de-camping to Hong Kong in 1949 when Mao Tse Dung took over China)

- Since 1932, Thailand has had 18 coup d'etats - why?

- each time, the main reason for overthrowing Thai governments was that they were CORRUPT

- interesting quote: "Corruption and bribery in all sectors have been on the rise. Most politicians were elected because of vote-buying and achieved a return on their investments by selling themselves to pass biased resolutions or corrupt budget bills. To win an election, an MP would pay around five hundred baht (10-20 USD) per person, totalling 10 to 30 million baht for a single election"

- Is this aimed at the recent Thaksin-led regimes? No, it refers to MOST Thai governments post-1988, so let's look at them:

- Chatichai government 1988-1991: On 23 February 1991, the military deposed Chatichai's government in a coup d'état. They accused the elected government of massive corruption and abuse of power for its own advantage. They charged several cabinet members, including Chatichai, with "unusual wealth"

- Chuan Leekpai (Democrat-led) 1st administration 1992-95: this was probably the most corrupt government in recent Thai political history by the number of cabinet members involved in corruption scandals and by amount of money embezzled. Interestingly, most commentators agree that the government was brought down by corrupt practices of the then Minister of Transport who brokered illegal land deals and used government funds to set up private co-operative ventures. This guy's name was - wait for it - Suthep Thaugsuban. So it seems he has experience in bringing down governments, including one he served in! Let's remind ourselves, too, that Suthep was forced to resign as an MP in 2009 when it was found that he held equity in a media firm which received concessions from the government

- Banharn (Chart Thai) government (1995-96): this PM was called Mr ATM by Thais for his habit of doling out money (usually under the table) for political favours.

- Chavalit (New Aspiration Party) government (1996-1997): the general and former head of the army patched together a coalition representing the interests of business elites, provincial bosses and local godfathers. And, I assume, the military. Say no more!

- Chuan Leekpai 2nd administration (1997-2001): this government was under the supervision of the IMF following the 1997 Asian Economic Crisis. Not surprisingly, it lost credibility when the country plunged into recession and 1 million Thais (guess where?) fell under the poverty line. This is the context under which we need to understand the rise of the populist Thaksin

- Thaksin 1st administration (2001-2005): TS won the election on an anti-IMF (i.e.. anti-austerity) program with three major spending pledges which contradicted the IMF edicts: moratorium on farmers' debts plus new credit lines; medical treatment for all at 30 baht; one million baht for each district to spend as it wished. This is the administration which cemented Thaksin's huge popularity amongst the rural and urban poor and has helped keep his various parties & coalitions in power ever since

- Thaksin 2nd administration (2005-2006): this is where TS overreached himself and things started to go wrong: using government to to favour his own businesses; subverting the press; buying allies and buying off opponents; the war on drugs, the Shin Corporation tax scandal etc etc.

- From 2006 onwards, events are fairly fresh in our minds. The rise of the opposition PAD, formation of UDD, the beginning of polarisation leading to the 2006 coup. It is worth reminding ourselves what the military junta actually did: They cancelled the upcoming elections, abrogated the Constitution, dissolved Parliament and Constitutional Court, banned protests and all political activities, suppressed and censored the media, declared martial law nationwide, and arrested Cabinet members. The new rulers appointed retired General Surayud Chulanont Premier. Martial law was lifted in 41 of Thailand's 76 provinces on 26 January 2007 but remained in place in another 35 provinces. Elections were held on 23 December 2007, after a military-appointed tribunal outlawed the Thai Rak Thai Party and banned TRT executives from contesting in elections for 5 years.

- My emphasis here is to highlight the fact that the first really popularly-approved 2007 Constitution was torn up and replaced by the army's (elite's) own constitution. It is also worth noting that they disbanded the then Constitutional Court and brought in their own Charter Court with a different composition. Part of the aim, of course, was to find something which they could stick on Thaksin to get him out of the way, a perfectly understandable tactic from their point of view, but a major factor in the current divisions of opinion, with one side saying he was set up by the elites and the others saying he was a crook who deserved his prison sentence. I will leave it to you to compare Thaksin's treatment by the courts and the treatment of the other Thai Rak Thai-associated PM's with the way other corrupt PM's have been treated (see below)

- General Surayud government (206-2008): This is the general who wanted the military out of politics. One of the reasons then-Prime Minister Chuan Leekpai picked Gen Surayud as Army Chief was because of the general's outspoken opinion - after the 1991 coup d’etat - that the army should never again get involved in government! After becoming Premier in 2006, he was accused of illegally owning forest land in Khao Yai Mountain. In February 2010 - after demonstrations by the "Red Shirts" at Khao Yai Mountain - Surayud, who by then had already left politics, returned the land to the Royal Forestry Department when it was found that the land was indeed located within forest reserve land. The plot of land is now under the Royal Forestry Department's care. However, up until now, no legal action has been taken by Thai authorities against him, This - together with Thaksin's case and the case against PM Samak (see below) - has been interpreted by the Red Shirts as an example of double standards by the judiciary. Worth mentioning here also the fate of the armed thugs who stormed the control tower at Suvarnabhumi airport (I'm not referring to the protesters who occupied the terminals). In what other country in the world would the perpetrators of such an attack get off scot-free? There are plenty of images and reports testifying to this in the press of the time.

- Samak government People's Power (2008): this is the PM who was removed from office for getting paid to appear on a TV cooking show. What a criminal!

- Somchai government People's Power (2008): Thaksin's brother-in-law didn't fare much better; he was removed and the party banned for election fraud

- Abhisit government (2008-2011): at last the Democrats got back into power with a little help from the army and the defection of the Friends of Newin faction from the disbanded PPP. In three years, you would have thought that they could have introduced at least some the urgent reforms they are now saying must be implemented before another election is held!

- Yingluk government (2011-2013): this re-incarnation of the ousted PPP was elected on a landslide majority and proved that TS was still calling the shots from behind the scenes. Obviously, this was more than the elites could stomach; before, every party/coalition got its turn at the "feeding trough"; now TS and his cronies were running off with every election due to the fact that they bribed the ignorant "buffaloes" in the North and North East. This raises another important issue which needs debating: all of Suthep's "campaign" has been Bangkok-based; he tried to close down Bangkok without much success. But Bangkok is not Thailand. The greatest fear of the elites is that someone like Thaksin will use democratic processes to undermine their power base. Many of Suthep's supporters have thrown out the line that the rural poor are not educated enough to be given a vote; that is why he is proposing that only he and his elitist friends be permitted to "choose" an interim PM and government

​- Yingluk caretaker government: (2013-?): so here we are pretty well up-to-date. The caretaker government limps on, and the elites are trying to figure out how to force it out. Watch this space!

All this is to make the important point that this is a class struggle in the traditional sense - a play for power with the old order trying to cling to its privileged position against a nascent democracy (with all its faults). And dominating the whole chaotic political scene in Thailand is the fear of the greater chaos which might ensue on the inevitable royal succession.

I have lived here now for 17 years and am hunkering down for more of the same. As the Chinese curse says: "May you live in interesting times"

And you consider this non political! Nice try at the selective history write up so often seen from those who support the Shin clan e.g Samak removed as he was paid for being on TV. Do you not think the fact he lied about it, i.e. committed perjury, was perhaps more why he resigned? Committing perjury is considered serious in most countries.

Try reading post 208. This presents facts without ignoring the bits that are not liked or trying to put a spin on them.

[Publicus]

So now comes the censorship and the enforcement of censorship by the self appointed censors who will defend truth and justice as defined by themselves only.

Truth or even personal opinion now instead become the circulating of "malicious rumors" which means the speaker needs to "beware" of any such statement considered seditious by the self appointed censors.

Many sources have pointed out Suthep's history of corruption whether as a minister or as an MP only. Suthep resigned as an MP so he could avoid a conviction that would have removed him from both his position as an MP and also as deputy prime minister - by resigning as an MP Suthep was able to preserve his position as a deputy PM.

The endgame here is more than obvious.

All this dung talk because of a diabolical government.

You are inside out, backwards, upside down.

First and foremost is that government via its authority and power distributes the resources of the country among the population and it regulates behaviors in the utilization of resources. Government budgets and the specific programs the budget funds determine the priorities of distributing the country's resources.

Choosing up sides to advocate a particular party in government rather than another is largely determined by one's socio-economic status, situation, circumstance, in the society as a whole.

To the broad swathe of the population of the North, a democratic government is seen as their ticket to participate in the distribution of the country's resources, from agriculture, to commerce, to industry, to the service economy, to education etc.

To the Bangkok ammarts, a Thai version of Plato's elite guardians is the only form of government that is acceptable. Rule by the elites guarantees preservation of the Thai historical feudal order of elite rule and control by the elites over the nation's resources, natural, physical infrastructure, human, and of the institutions that administer the distribution of resources and which regulate behaviors in specific terms.

I reiterate to you specifically that people who violently attack innocent voters at the polls and that campaign militantly and forcefully to stop democracy absolutely cannot be believed or trusted when they say they are democratic and promise to respect, hold, conduct elections. No one has ever improved democracy by forcefully or violently stopping it.

After 1000 years of absolute rule in Russia we see what Russian democracy looks like and it ain't pretty, but it does have a long term future as Putin's vote totals continue to decrease, in Moscow and in other urban areas especially. After 5000 years of dictatorship in China we see what Chinese government, society, culture look like - in a word, miserable. Thailand has had less than a century of a tenuous and limited democracy which is unstable not because the Thai people cannot ever self-govern, but instead because of the mess the ammart have made of Thailand since early in the 20th century.

Just a pity the government did not near deliver what it promised, the election/poll chaos is not what I condone, but it should never have taken place, it was warned.

Governing is all I criticize, so from now on just post about it in a reply, I do not want a saga from you on history or Suthep or a.n.other.

Please post and tell me of all the government have achieved in 3 years, if you cannot I have my answer regarding the regime. Nothing more--post a list.

If it not forth coming you will have also answered other posters. THIS aftermath is not in my interest, only the cause.

THIS aftermath?!?

You don't know cause-effect.

You call the cause the effect, i.e., the aftermath.

I reiterate you are inside out, backwards, upside down.

People who point to segments of the Thai population and still cite antiquated measurements such as IQ demonstrate that a little education from back home does not go a long way.

[Jack Mountain]

This guy is one of the biggest Wan#$rs I have ever seen. Clearly the blind leading the blind. Is this guy even educated, cause everything he has done and the way he goes about things is something you would expect from an uneducated person. Maybe he is just a retarded gimp and needs a good punch in the face to wake him up.

It does that say something about his followers aswell!!!!

Edited May 18, 2014 by Jack Mountain

[kowpot]

He is not as stupid as he looks. By then the Monsoon rains will be coming and he won't have the crowds anyway. The streets will be flooded and people are not going to want to camp out on the sidewalks. But, he may have plans for when the rains clear out!

[JAG]

Is civil war formerly whoopy doo?

Can't be. His profile says he has not had any other user names!

I guess if someone gets banned then their username and IPaddress get banned also? Always proxy servers though of course.

If he is we will know soon enough, he will lose the plot and start calling for the first borne of all red voters to be slaughtered or something equally bizarre!

Key words to look out for are "crush"," kill", and "bull crap" if I recall correctly.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Publicus]

Is civil war formerly whoopy doo?

Can't be. His profile says he has not had any other user names!

I guess if someone gets banned then their username and IPaddress get banned also? Always proxy servers though of course.

If he is we will know soon enough, he will lose the plot and start calling for the first borne of all red voters to be slaughtered or something equally bizarre!

Key words to look out for are "crush"," kill", and "bull crap" if I recall correctly.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Well said.

You may have noticed his first two posts to this thread were excised for what I'd have to say was rumor mongering. Two of his posts are gone, invalidated. The quoting of them by others in our own posts remain, but his original two posts to the thread are expunged, whatever the reason.

[chotthee]

He is not as stupid as he looks. By then the Monsoon rains will be coming and he won't have the crowds anyway. The streets will be flooded and people are not going to want to camp out on the sidewalks. But, he may have plans for when the rains clear out!

Can always move to protest at the airport.

No worry on rain or shine, plenty of parking for the Merc, and good toilet facilities.

[55Jay]

He is not as stupid as he looks. By then the Monsoon rains will be coming and he won't have the crowds anyway. The streets will be flooded and people are not going to want to camp out on the sidewalks. But, he may have plans for when the rains clear out!

Can always move to protest at the airport.

No worry on rain or shine, plenty of parking for the Merc, and good toilet facilities.

Food court and plenty of ATMs to withdraw cash for donations too.

[anteater]

Whenever you see the words "Suthep" and "vows" in near proximity in a sentence you can guarantee that, whatever it is, it ain't going to happen.

[Publicus]

It's a shame Suthep is the frontman for the anti-government movement, he attracts so many negative comments and deservedly so. But then does it really matter who is leading the movement ? The fact that so many people are sick and tired of the Shinawatra style of government says enough.

It would not matter who led them, the raving reds fans would run them down.

Publicus, why are you supporting the pro government cause? Aren't you really just mad that Thaksin can not come back to his country, because of Suthep rousing the people of Bangkok to stop his movement. It seems your rants are just a cover for your real goal, giving the country back to Thaksin. Oh these Suthep people are delaying Thaksin's return. Poor Thaksin. I bet you believe it would be so nice if he could be President for life and then the country would not have to be bothered with elections again.

I can't understand if you are short sighted or just don't care. I only hear you complaining about Suthep. Please explain how you think that Thaksin will help the country. Look at what he's done over the past 3 years. Or should I say what he has messed up. It would be nice to hear and understand why you support him?

You want me to "explain" myself. This is the very wrong approach whether or not you say "please." My father used to demand I explain myself and I myself required my son and also my daughter to explain themselves, if you follow my drift. My ex used to demand it from up on her high horse.

I said I am anti-fascist but that seems invalid to some posters, which is their shortcoming and their cultural deficiency.

Show me the post in which I said I supported Thaksin, or advocated Thaksin be accepted back in to the country, or that I wanted to "give the country back to Thaksin," or said "poor Thaksin," or indicated I wanted, supported or advocated a "President for life" in Thailand for/by any person ever at all, or that I ever said the country should never be "bothered by elections again."

I reiterate I needn't "explain" anything in response to such editorialized and gross misrepresentations or because of wrongheaded rejections of my explicitly stated thoughts, motives, reasons.

BTW, how old are you?

@ Publicus, do you really think that talking to people in an arrogant and condescending manner on this forum makes you look good ? Or does it just make you feel good ? If you speak to people like in Thailand, if in fact you do live in the country, you would not be very popular or attract many friends.

.............................."I said I am anti-fascist but that seems invalid to some posters, which is their shortcoming and their cultural deficiency."..............................

.........................."I reiterate I needn't "explain" anything in response to such editorialized and gross misrepresentations or because of wrongheaded rejections of my explicitly stated thoughts, motives, reasons.

BTW, how old are you?"......................................................

Gee mate, I can understand Fab4 talking like that because he is just a desperate troll and being crass and arrogant is his modus operandi, but I did not expect you to go that way.

I felt bad about you insulting me in an earlier post but not any more, apparently you do it to anyone who dares to disagree with you.

Good luck with your future posts.

No matter how you try to slice it or dice it, you're still peddling baloney.

The guy loaded his post to me with wildly biased editorializing that grossly misrepresentated me and my views. He's not legit.

This is one more of my future posts.....see you around.

[northernjohn]

It's a shame Suthep is the frontman for the anti-government movement, he attracts so many negative comments and deservedly so. But then does it really matter who is leading the movement ? The fact that so many people are sick and tired of the Shinawatra style of government says enough.

It would not matter who led them, the raving reds fans would run them down.

Publicus, why are you supporting the pro government cause? Aren't you really just mad that Thaksin can not come back to his country, because of Suthep rousing the people of Bangkok to stop his movement. It seems your rants are just a cover for your real goal, giving the country back to Thaksin. Oh these Suthep people are delaying Thaksin's return. Poor Thaksin. I bet you believe it would be so nice if he could be President for life and then the country would not have to be bothered with elections again.

I can't understand if you are short sighted or just don't care. I only hear you complaining about Suthep. Please explain how you think that Thaksin will help the country. Look at what he's done over the past 3 years. Or should I say what he has messed up. It would be nice to hear and understand why you support him?

You want me to "explain" myself. This is the very wrong approach whether or not you say "please." My father used to demand I explain myself and I myself required my son and also my daughter to explain themselves, if you follow my drift. My ex used to demand it from up on her high horse.

I said I am anti-fascist but that seems invalid to some posters, which is their shortcoming and their cultural deficiency.

Show me the post in which I said I supported Thaksin, or advocated Thaksin be accepted back in to the country, or that I wanted to "give the country back to Thaksin," or said "poor Thaksin," or indicated I wanted, supported or advocated a "President for life" in Thailand for/by any person ever at all, or that I ever said the country should never be "bothered by elections again."

I reiterate I needn't "explain" anything in response to such editorialized and gross misrepresentations or because of wrongheaded rejections of my explicitly stated thoughts, motives, reasons.

BTW, how old are you?

@ Publicus, do you really think that talking to people in an arrogant and condescending manner on this forum makes you look good ? Or does it just make you feel good ? If you speak to people like in Thailand, if in fact you do live in the country, you would not be very popular or attract many friends.

.............................."I said I am anti-fascist but that seems invalid to some posters, which is their shortcoming and their cultural deficiency."..............................

.........................."I reiterate I needn't "explain" anything in response to such editorialized and gross misrepresentations or because of wrongheaded rejections of my explicitly stated thoughts, motives, reasons.

BTW, how old are you?"......................................................

Gee mate, I can understand Fab4 talking like that because he is just a desperate troll and being crass and arrogant is his modus operandi, but I did not expect you to go that way.

I felt bad about you insulting me in an earlier post but not any more, apparently you do it to anyone who dares to disagree with you.

Good luck with your future posts.

No matter how you try to slice it or dice it, you're still peddling baloney.

The guy loaded his post to me with wildly biased editorializing that grossly misrepresentated me and my views. He's not legit.

This is one more of my future posts.....see you around.

It is easy to see why you are as you are. I to would be a rebel if I had to explain all my actions as a youth.

[chotthee]

Does he dare to tattoo "27-May or Jail" on his forehead?

Yes. Our supreme secretary general dare.

He will also be nominated and appointed as Thailand next Prime Minister and DSI chief.

It is not Suthep ambition. It is the wish of the people; the real Thai people.

Edited May 19, 2014 by chotthee

[Bernard Flint]

This guy is one of the biggest Wan#$rs I have ever seen. Clearly the blind leading the blind. Is this guy even educated, cause everything he has done and the way he goes about things is something you would expect from an uneducated person. Maybe he is just a retarded gimp and needs a good punch in the face to wake him up.

It does that say something about his followers aswell!!!!

How come some are following him like sheep, he has a dark face, unless South Thailand Gentry are different than Issan or Chiang Mai gentry.It is well know that the yellows are very racist to skin colour, so explain please.

[Just1Voice]

This guy is one of the biggest Wan#$rs I have ever seen. Clearly the blind leading the blind. Is this guy even educated, cause everything he has done and the way he goes about things is something you would expect from an uneducated person. Maybe he is just a retarded gimp and needs a good punch in the face to wake him up.

It does that say something about his followers aswell!!!!

How come some are following him like sheep, he has a dark face, unless South Thailand Gentry are different than Issan or Chiang Mai gentry.It is well know that the yellows are very racist to skin colour, so explain please.

Ever see his "bodyguards"? Dark skinned, thug looking, every one of them. Don't even try to tell me they are "BKK elite".

[Bernard Flint]

This guy is one of the biggest Wan#$rs I have ever seen. Clearly the blind leading the blind. Is this guy even educated, cause everything he has done and the way he goes about things is something you would expect from an uneducated person. Maybe he is just a retarded gimp and needs a good punch in the face to wake him up.

It does that say something about his followers aswell!!!!

How come some are following him like sheep, he has a dark face, unless South Thailand Gentry are different than Issan or Chiang Mai gentry.It is well know that the yellows are very racist to skin colour, so explain please.

Ever see his "bodyguards"? Dark skinned, thug looking, every one of them. Don't even try to tell me they are "BKK elite".

All from South Thailand mate, get paid very well from the unofficial collecting bags. These are the ones who TRY to PERSUADE, many yellows to stay, they want to leave realy.I believe they are selling face whitener at 20% discount too.

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed.

[Thailand]

Does he dare to tattoo "27-May or Jail" on his forehead?

Yes. Our supreme secretary general dare.

He will also be nominated and appointed as Thailand next Prime Minister and DSI chief.

It is not Suthep ambition. It is the wish of the people; the real Thai people.

I don't think so!

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[jpeg]

I read this morning that CAPO is on high alert as state enterprise unions will strike in support of Suthep's putsch on 22nd May. They added they will not cut water or electricity supplies. Anyone know what will be cut then?

[Crushdepth]

The stink of desperation is palpable.

Personally I don't give a flying <deleted> what pig is at the trough. But surely this whole tragic, sorry episode has got to end. Maybe K. Prayuth can put them all out of their misery.....start by telling all (both sides) of them to get off the streets.

Already has.

[55Jay]

This guy is one of the biggest Wan#$rs I have ever seen. Clearly the blind leading the blind. Is this guy even educated, cause everything he has done and the way he goes about things is something you would expect from an uneducated person. Maybe he is just a retarded gimp and needs a good punch in the face to wake him up.

It does that say something about his followers aswell!!!!

How come some are following him like sheep, he has a dark face, unless South Thailand Gentry are different than Issan or Chiang Mai gentry.It is well know that the yellows are very racist to skin colour, so explain please.

Most Thais will get dark very quickly when exposed to the sun, which is why many (especially women) avoid it if when they can. Suthep's gotten blacker than the toothpaste guy, but it could be viewed as a badge of honor in this case. He's willing to forego the skin color stigma because he's so dedicated to The Thai People and making this a better country, etc, - something like that.

[toybits]

Thai wai roon (teenagers and yuppies) have a term for this move by Mr. Suthep. It is called "Check Rating". He is unsure about how popular he is or his is worried that his popularity is waning. So he has to drum up support that he will "surrender". Mr. Suthep expressing a bit of feeling "Pachot" or petulance...

[bobmac10]

That's brought 11 of you out very quick, just up your street, another thread about government blunders--no one.

Spot on ginjag, 11 of them led by #1 resident troll "phiphidon" himself.

So obvious the cowards trawl through the forum looking for easy pickings. And their silence is deafening on the many topics focusing on Chalerm, redshirt atrocities like children being killed by the red scumbags, rice farmers being ripped off etc.

What a pack of gutless trolls !

Another keyboard tough guy. Pathetic. Atrocities indeed, total BS.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 2 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It figures that you wouldn't consider children being killed by indiscriminate gunfire in a family oriented market. Despicable!

I think I know where the rod has been rammed!

[bobmac10]

As a new member it's a bit disappointing to see so many posters slagging each other off, Clearly, members are as polarised as the Thai public, and I can understand each side having entrenched views on which they are not prepared to budge. Also, I note one particular poster getting his oar in every time anyone challenges his viewpoint. My goodness, 7,000+ posts - is that how you get to be an Advanced Member? My own view - and I hope I don't get banned for saying this - is that the moderators should intervene more often a) to cut drown on the pointless repeat rants and to turn this whole forum discussion into something more resembling a civilised debate

Let me make my non-political contribution to this new, more rational debate by introducing a few topics which I believe are worthy of further thought and discussion:-

- Thailand was an absolute monarchy until 1932 - compare and contrast with Western countries, eg. the UK, France, Russia. Bear in mind that Thailand was never colonised, whereas most other countries in Asia were or were under Western financial control (viz the Shanghai banking system de-camping to Hong Kong in 1949 when Mao Tse Dung took over China)

- Since 1932, Thailand has had 18 coup d'etats - why?

- each time, the main reason for overthrowing Thai governments was that they were CORRUPT

- interesting quote: "Corruption and bribery in all sectors have been on the rise. Most politicians were elected because of vote-buying and achieved a return on their investments by selling themselves to pass biased resolutions or corrupt budget bills. To win an election, an MP would pay around five hundred baht (10-20 USD) per person, totalling 10 to 30 million baht for a single election"

- Is this aimed at the recent Thaksin-led regimes? No, it refers to MOST Thai governments post-1988, so let's look at them:

- Chatichai government 1988-1991: On 23 February 1991, the military deposed Chatichai's government in a coup d'état. They accused the elected government of massive corruption and abuse of power for its own advantage. They charged several cabinet members, including Chatichai, with "unusual wealth"

- Chuan Leekpai (Democrat-led) 1st administration 1992-95: this was probably the most corrupt government in recent Thai political history by the number of cabinet members involved in corruption scandals and by amount of money embezzled. Interestingly, most commentators agree that the government was brought down by corrupt practices of the then Minister of Transport who brokered illegal land deals and used government funds to set up private co-operative ventures. This guy's name was - wait for it - Suthep Thaugsuban. So it seems he has experience in bringing down governments, including one he served in! Let's remind ourselves, too, that Suthep was forced to resign as an MP in 2009 when it was found that he held equity in a media firm which received concessions from the government

- Banharn (Chart Thai) government (1995-96): this PM was called Mr ATM by Thais for his habit of doling out money (usually under the table) for political favours.

- Chavalit (New Aspiration Party) government (1996-1997): the general and former head of the army patched together a coalition representing the interests of business elites, provincial bosses and local godfathers. And, I assume, the military. Say no more!

- Chuan Leekpai 2nd administration (1997-2001): this government was under the supervision of the IMF following the 1997 Asian Economic Crisis. Not surprisingly, it lost credibility when the country plunged into recession and 1 million Thais (guess where?) fell under the poverty line. This is the context under which we need to understand the rise of the populist Thaksin

- Thaksin 1st administration (2001-2005): TS won the election on an anti-IMF (i.e.. anti-austerity) program with three major spending pledges which contradicted the IMF edicts: moratorium on farmers' debts plus new credit lines; medical treatment for all at 30 baht; one million baht for each district to spend as it wished. This is the administration which cemented Thaksin's huge popularity amongst the rural and urban poor and has helped keep his various parties & coalitions in power ever since

- Thaksin 2nd administration (2005-2006): this is where TS overreached himself and things started to go wrong: using government to to favour his own businesses; subverting the press; buying allies and buying off opponents; the war on drugs, the Shin Corporation tax scandal etc etc.

- From 2006 onwards, events are fairly fresh in our minds. The rise of the opposition PAD, formation of UDD, the beginning of polarisation leading to the 2006 coup. It is worth reminding ourselves what the military junta actually did: They cancelled the upcoming elections, abrogated the Constitution, dissolved Parliament and Constitutional Court, banned protests and all political activities, suppressed and censored the media, declared martial law nationwide, and arrested Cabinet members. The new rulers appointed retired General Surayud Chulanont Premier. Martial law was lifted in 41 of Thailand's 76 provinces on 26 January 2007 but remained in place in another 35 provinces. Elections were held on 23 December 2007, after a military-appointed tribunal outlawed the Thai Rak Thai Party and banned TRT executives from contesting in elections for 5 years.

- My emphasis here is to highlight the fact that the first really popularly-approved 2007 Constitution was torn up and replaced by the army's (elite's) own constitution. It is also worth noting that they disbanded the then Constitutional Court and brought in their own Charter Court with a different composition. Part of the aim, of course, was to find something which they could stick on Thaksin to get him out of the way, a perfectly understandable tactic from their point of view, but a major factor in the current divisions of opinion, with one side saying he was set up by the elites and the others saying he was a crook who deserved his prison sentence. I will leave it to you to compare Thaksin's treatment by the courts and the treatment of the other Thai Rak Thai-associated PM's with the way other corrupt PM's have been treated (see below)

- General Surayud government (206-2008): This is the general who wanted the military out of politics. One of the reasons then-Prime Minister Chuan Leekpai picked Gen Surayud as Army Chief was because of the general's outspoken opinion - after the 1991 coup d’etat - that the army should never again get involved in government! After becoming Premier in 2006, he was accused of illegally owning forest land in Khao Yai Mountain. In February 2010 - after demonstrations by the "Red Shirts" at Khao Yai Mountain - Surayud, who by then had already left politics, returned the land to the Royal Forestry Department when it was found that the land was indeed located within forest reserve land. The plot of land is now under the Royal Forestry Department's care. However, up until now, no legal action has been taken by Thai authorities against him, This - together with Thaksin's case and the case against PM Samak (see below) - has been interpreted by the Red Shirts as an example of double standards by the judiciary. Worth mentioning here also the fate of the armed thugs who stormed the control tower at Suvarnabhumi airport (I'm not referring to the protesters who occupied the terminals). In what other country in the world would the perpetrators of such an attack get off scot-free? There are plenty of images and reports testifying to this in the press of the time.

- Samak government People's Power (2008): this is the PM who was removed from office for getting paid to appear on a TV cooking show. What a criminal!

- Somchai government People's Power (2008): Thaksin's brother-in-law didn't fare much better; he was removed and the party banned for election fraud

- Abhisit government (2008-2011): at last the Democrats got back into power with a little help from the army and the defection of the Friends of Newin faction from the disbanded PPP. In three years, you would have thought that they could have introduced at least some the urgent reforms they are now saying must be implemented before another election is held!

- Yingluk government (2011-2013): this re-incarnation of the ousted PPP was elected on a landslide majority and proved that TS was still calling the shots from behind the scenes. Obviously, this was more than the elites could stomach; before, every party/coalition got its turn at the "feeding trough"; now TS and his cronies were running off with every election due to the fact that they bribed the ignorant "buffaloes" in the North and North East. This raises another important issue which needs debating: all of Suthep's "campaign" has been Bangkok-based; he tried to close down Bangkok without much success. But Bangkok is not Thailand. The greatest fear of the elites is that someone like Thaksin will use democratic processes to undermine their power base. Many of Suthep's supporters have thrown out the line that the rural poor are not educated enough to be given a vote; that is why he is proposing that only he and his elitist friends be permitted to "choose" an interim PM and government

​- Yingluk caretaker government: (2013-?): so here we are pretty well up-to-date. The caretaker government limps on, and the elites are trying to figure out how to force it out. Watch this space!

All this is to make the important point that this is a class struggle in the traditional sense - a play for power with the old order trying to cling to its privileged position against a nascent democracy (with all its faults). And dominating the whole chaotic political scene in Thailand is the fear of the greater chaos which might ensue on the inevitable royal succession.

I have lived here now for 17 years and am hunkering down for more of the same. As the Chinese curse says: "May you live in interesting times"

Thank you for your enlightened and informative post.

I've been married to a Thai and been living here on and off for almost 40 years.

i feel the country is stumbling towards a democracy, feeling their way so to speak.

However, they have a very recent history af feudalism and even today, many poor Thais, especially the older Thais, wai up to the so called elite.

But they are learning and the Thaksin era gave them something they have never had before, politicians who actually needed their vote and were prepared to woo them with policies which would have a beneficial effect on their lives.

Such as the 30 baht charge for hospital treatment, low interest loans for rural students to attend university, low interest loans for farmers to buy essential tools and machinery, a small pension for elderly people. The effect of this was not only a monetery one, it let the Thai rural poor know that they mattered and they could have a say in the future of their country. For a country emerging from feudalism, this was ground breaking stuff.

The many people who harp on about Thaksin's corruption fail to recognise this. The genie can never be put back in the bottle.

Now we have millions of Thai rural poor who now take an interest in politics and want to see the nation develop in a democratic way, no more suffering in silence while the Bangkok elite run the country to line their own pockets.

The military have gone hand in glove with this cosy arrangement. Many generals take up politics once they have finished their time in the army.

During their time in the army they sit on the board of companies, use the resources at their disposal to enrich themselves.

The wholesale clearing of the teak forests from the early 50's to the late 70's was done with the direct involvement and resources of the military.

The fact that the military has not got involved this time is interesting. I believe the USA under Obama has let them know that they want them to stay out of politics.

Which they should of course.

From my perspective, the so called yelow shirts, (the ones I know) are mostly public servants, university educated and have a superior attitude towards the lower educated

Thais, which is a fairly normal attitude for an educated elite in a feudal society.

They believe they know better and they are somehow connected to the ruling class no matter how distant that may be. Hence the flag waving and the significance of their choice of the colour yellow. I have to say many of the yellows I know are lazy and resent having to work.

This will change quickly when the rural students graduate and join the workforce.

The government is no longer the best place to work, industry and private enterprise are paying better wages and giving them the ability to rise quickly in society unlike the years of low pay in junior government paid positions.

We need to remember it took us hundreds of years to graduate from an absolute monarchy to a modern democracy and we had many stumbles along the way.

No doubt Thailand will too.