Suthep vows to surrender, stop rallies by May 27 if remaining Cabinet members not resign

[mikemac]

Obviously, you don't realise that when Suthep was in government corruption was at its highest with Khun Suthep the biggest "nose in the trough" So what good do you think the Dems would ever be in government again. They are finished, bye bye to Abishit and his boss Suthep..............on the garbage heap.

Very funny to sit here reading your posts, as you are arguing with yourselves. These rabid Suthep fans you think you are arguing with are a figment of your imagination.

Just because we don't support PTP does not mean we support Suthep.

Never come across a group of people so hard to get through to.

Personally I believe Suthep should be deported to Dubai and put under house arrest with that other raving ratbag, whatever his name is.

Edited May 18, 2014 by mikemac

[LivinLOS]

He just happens to be the one "leading" the protesters. But believe me if he was not around this movement would still be protesting against this corrupt and self-centered government/family.

Maybe you havent noticed but there are very few actual 'protesters' to lead any more..

There are roving bands of thugs and guards.. There are mobs and violent law breakers.. But actual peaceful protesters taking part ?? Very very few.

A similar kind of thing that happens at the polls each time also. Lots of noise, but not much of a majority.

[shiok]

I don't believe a word he says. He is trying to get sympathy from the people who used to come out and support him. He will just say he has a million people and continue the protest. However he will need a lot more than a million to win a victor over the government. There is not great victory for him, the government or the Thai people. Have elections now is the only way you can have reforms in the laws and in the constitution. No other way. Elections, reforms and than another election.

Only crackpots believed anything Suthep ever said and I agree with your post that Suthep simply will declare a million people present and continue on in his mad way.

Still, the more Suthep and the PDRC continue, the more likely it is they will become completely isolated, which should also prevent them stopping the next election.

So I would politely modify your sequence a mite to say elections, a representative constitutional convention, referendum. So that would be

Elections

Representative Constitutional Convention

Referendum

That would about do it.

Yes I think so.

What I would like to know from you PTP/red shirt supporters.

Do you honestly think this Govt is / has been run in a democratic manner as you would know in your own countries or any others?

Do you believe this Govt is pure a driven snow, not have committed numerous and blatant acts of corruption, cronyism, and nepotism?

Do you believe this govt populous policies where well thought out and for the benefit of all Thai people or only a select (very) few, and merely unsustainable campaign promises?

Do you honestly believe this govt has acted in a unbiased way to all Thai citizens and not shown total (biased) favoritism towards their supporters (red shirts)?

The last thing.

Do you believe that the anti govt protests are actually a bad thing and these people have no gripe of the current govt?

Obviously, you don't realise that when Suthep was in government corruption was at its highest with Khun Suthep the biggest "nose in the trough" So what good do you think the Dems would ever be in government again. They are finished, bye bye to Abishit and his boss Suthep..............on the garbage heap.

you are spreading malicious rumors, so beware of that stat!ement

[oldsailor35]

1995 To present corruption scandal[edit]

As part of the Sor Por Kor 4-01 (สปก.4-01) land reform scheme, Suthep gave title deeds to 592 plots of land in Khao Sam Liam, Kamala and Nakkerd hills of Phuket province to 489 farmers. It was later found that members of 11 wealthy families in Phuket were among the recipients. Suthep addressed a huge crowd in his Surat Thani constituency a month before a no-confidence debate and called on his supporters to march on Bangkok in the hundreds of thousands to defend his reputation.^[5] The scandal led Prime Minister Chuan Leekpai of the Democrat Party to dissolve the House of Representatives in July 1995 in order to avoid the no-confidence debate.^[6] In subsequent elections, Thai Nation Party won a majority, leading to the downfall of Chuan Leekpai's Democrat Party-led government.

Wikileaks diplomatic cables from the US embassy revealed that many members of his own party have long complained of his corrupt and unethical behavior.^[7][8][9]

There it is Khun Suthep ! all in print. And still some fools are prepared to ignore this and see him as some sort of a hero. He is nothing but an outright fascist making his play for outright power.

[Lingba]

one can only hope

so sick and tired of listening to this numbskull

wonder who's the armchair numbskull. are you hoping for the Shins to stay in power? is that why you are nagging??

Making assumptions Shiok???.....at what point did I mention I am a fan of the Shins?...what post are you reading?....and since you must know..I don't root for any politician...IMO, they are all con artists, crooks and scammers..I do however feel sorry for the poor sheep that believe and follow them to never never land...

Sutthep is as much of a power hungry crook as the top Shin...the words that vomit from his mouth are as deceitful as Big Shins...he talks a lot of mularkey and is so full of himself...he is borderline fascist, although maybe there already...who is nagging Shiok?

[Estrada]

This meglamaniac idiot has cost the nation Bht 500 million . Will he be asked to pay anything back, i doubt it as his judiciary have control.

It is B500 Billion plus, The BTS alone has lost B70 Million in ridership since mid March.

[bobmac10]

That's brought 11 of you out very quick, just up your street, another thread about government blunders--no one.

IF A GOVERNMENT MAKES MISTAKES.... THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULACE GETS RID OF THEM AT THE NEXT ELECTION....

That's the way democracy works.

Not a crowd of political opponents rioting in the streets and demanding that they be given the right to govern.

It's that simple.

This was always an attempt to get the military to stage another coup.

This time however, the USA made it clear to the generals that they would not approve the military installed government.

SO ALL YOU DEM SUPPORTERS, THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE TO GET OUT THERE AND SUPPORT OLD SUTHEP!!!!

[rabas]

The Bangkok Post to which we can't link here has made a breathtaking in its audacity op-ed piece about the real game at play here ( called Thaksin's Real War) and made hints that can surely only have been approved at the highest level at what is really going on. Maybe the game is about to change.

Excellent read, thanks. That's what I hear too from Thai, when you can get their confidence. He didn't mention a couple points, but I think only because they are not central to his opinion. Certainly he hit the nail on the head. I too wonder what approval he would have.

[oldsailor35]

For anyone as deep into the discussion as we are now here on TV who does not and/or cannot get past the Thaksin issue som nom na... This is a power grab by those equally and more corrupt than Thaksin ever was... Thaksin is not the issue. He is the convenient target as demonized by the real players here nothing more... If you think for one minute that any kind of reform is going to come from Suthep, Abhisit or any of the Dem/fasc group of players you are truly not up to speed on this nation or how it functions... with sin nam jai embedded into every facet of life here going back for many many decades, the lack of education, the propagation of keeping the foot planted firmly on the head of the masses... with the allies embedded in the Privy council and the mega millionaires the Constitutional Court and all Commissions...the Military...and big business...Thaksin is the least of the real threats facing the nation... None of the piling on on him or Yingluck or the remainder of the cabinet is going to change anything... The names and faces may change but the game will remain the same...and the reality is you nor I can do anything about it but.. share our opinions on it at any given time... One would think that if it really mattered.. one would do some real research, from outside sources, books, studies et al... on the way this country has operated and how it will continue to operate in the foreseeable future until people become more informed/educated and given the freedom of thought and speech we currently do not have.. instead of beating the dead horses... Suthep has taken this country backwards.. That was his function...that was his commission... and in the grand scheme of things he is merely a pawn as well... but given that information is more readily accessible and will continue to be more-so going forward... the oppression of the masses down the road is a less likely outcome, AS much as is stifled here and in the media and in this forum as well, the truth is out there if one takes the time to look for it... look beyond pro this pro that that only remains a tug of war among those who refuse to take off the blinders... it is a much bigger game....

With Suthep gone, you Pro non democratic gov posters should be crying, you lot will have no one now to use as scapegoat for your super failure to govern within it's oath it gave.

Rice---tablets---water management---amnesty--refusal to have question time on TV----Money missing--no accounts----Sutheps Fault

Election

Representative Constitutional Convention

Referendum.

Time has always been on the side of the government and time continues to be on the side of the government. Suthep, the PDRC, the judges, the advocates of a military mutiny coup d'état, the senate - they and their whole gang of feudalists - are unable to stop time or to turn back the clock.

Give up the ghost.

And keep on laughing cause it will help get you out of your doldrums.

Publicus, why are you supporting the pro government cause? Aren't you really just mad that Thaksin can not come back to his country, because of Suthep rousing the people of Bangkok to stop his movement. It seems your rants are just a cover for your real goal, giving the country back to Thaksin. Oh these Suthep people are delaying Thaksin's return. Poor Thaksin. I bet you believe it would be so nice if he could be President for life and then the country would not have to be bothered with elections again.

I can't understand if you are short sighted or just don't care. I only hear you complaining about Suthep. Please explain how you think that Thaksin will help the country. Look at what he's done over the past 3 years. Or should I say what he has messed up. It would be nice to hear and understand why you support him?

Dirt farmer, after the democratic elections 3 years ago NO power struggle interfered with the PTP/Thaksin/Yingluck episode.

They governed with their coalition with disregard for their election pledges, after scams etc the Amnesty to pardon Thaksin brought a load of hate and opened the can of worms. They abused their power and are having to pay for that like anyone would have to do.

That created the power people to enter the scene.

Thaksin created the PTP monster, He is the reason He is the issue here. I do believe had PTP governed cleanly and Thailand progressed from it, none of this turmoil would have happened.

Hence no criticism from me, and no denial from Pro posters.

Ginjag stop please... do yourself a favor and take some time off to do some reading outside of thai press and learn from it... get help to let go of Thaksin... it is not about him or the last three years it is about the last 80 years of Thai politics and the ever repeating cycles of power and loss of power with always the same ammunition used and always the same plays by the same group of people... were you ever this vocal about the failings of Abhisit. or Leekpai/Suthep era or the military juntas before that or are you just stuck on Thaksin...without the ability to learn from history much less study it you fall into the trap your puppetmasters ..... Suthep Abhisit, and their backers took a big blunder by PTP and hoisted it as the evil of all time and began their failed campaign there... and spent billions on it...and have the country in the shambles it is in today... aftyer the withfdrawal of the amnesty bill they should have used the crack in the armour to build some kind of real platform for the future... but they did not.. they chose instead to sit there pointing like spolit little children at the bad boy..and tried to build on that but they themselves are no better than their target in fact many of them much worse... and I daresay should they do this country a great dis-service and by some breach of the imagination come to power again legitimately their fallacies will be equally displayed....neither you or I will determine the outcome of it..or even be able to accurately project what it will be ...but my guess is that Suthep will not become the hero he thinks he will

Congratulations DF this is so well put, though i doubt the Dem supporters will be able to read it, let alone understand.

They might claim to be the educated ones in the country, but not to much of a level. To be able to have paid for this education and then absorb it are completely different matters as they prove to us again and again.

[city]

Suthep is like a buffalo fart....yes its bullshit

[mikemac]

That's brought 11 of you out very quick, just up your street, another thread about government blunders--no one.

IF A GOVERNMENT MAKES MISTAKES.... THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULACE GETS RID OF THEM AT THE NEXT ELECTION....

That's the way democracy works.

Not a crowd of political opponents rioting in the streets and demanding that they be given the right to govern.

It's that simple.

This was always an attempt to get the military to stage another coup.

This time however, the USA made it clear to the generals that they would not approve the military installed government.

SO ALL YOU DEM SUPPORTERS, THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE TO GET OUT THERE AND SUPPORT OLD SUTHEP!!!!

If it was that simple this thread would probably not exist.

...................................."SO ALL YOU DEM SUPPORTERS"....................................

Which ones ? Name them or admit you too are arguing with yourself, or just plain trolling.

[Bernard Flint]

Stop me if you've heard this one before...............

Bloomberg News

By Anuchit Nguyen December 08, 2013

If Yingluck isn’t ousted tomorrow, Suthep will surrender to the police, according to an e-mailed release from the People’s Democratic Reform Committee

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-12-08/yingluck-offers-to-hold-thai-referendum-on-unelected-council

Just one more lie fromthat dimwit.

DONT call him a dimwit, he does not deserve a nice word

[Alwyn]

I do not understand why people follow this guy, they suppose to be the educated ones. The education 'system' must be seriously wrong here ...

Agreed but what about the mugs here on TV who think Suthep is the answer for democracy? They must have finished school at age 12 or something?

OK Alwyn, Please post a list of all the posters (mugs as you call them) on this forum who think Suthep is the answer for democracy, or who think Suthep should be the PM, or that Suthep should play any part of a future government. Apparently you red supporters are constantly directing your jibes and insults at these "mugs" and I for one would be interested in knowing who they are.

I will be surprised if you find enough people to fill a Soi Nana noodle stand, ie. people who have any time whatsoever for Suthep.

He just happens to be the one "leading" the protesters. But believe me if he was not around this movement would still be protesting against this corrupt and self-centered government/family.

Most of the posters on this forum are not for Suthep at all, they just don't like the way the Shins are destroying this country while they feather their own nests.

Seriously, is that so hard to understand ?

I would have to say the number of his fans has probably dwindled; when he first started crippling the country with his demands (which were met and he then said he didn't accept etc) it seemed everybody thought he was some kind of saviour and not the anarchist/terrorist he really is. I have to say I don't agree that if he wasn't around the movement would still be around and protesting - if he was arrested for the murder charges etc tomorrow the whole thing would collapse even further.

As for me being a red shirt or red shirt supporter, that's nonsense. I'm not supporting either side as they are all as corrupt as each other. Fact. But I do oppose the tyranny you seem to be enjoying. I've not been in Thailand as long as some people here - just 13 short years - so I don't claim to have inside tracks to what's going on in the upper echelons of government or military and I don't claim to be an expert of Thailand or it's politics. But since I've been here I've seen enough to form my own opinions. Having worked and travelled in quite a few countries over the years I've seen how other countries operate. The one thing most countries share (but not all obviously) is governments that are full of people empire building (just like Thaksin) and that will do almost anything to protect their "empire" (or income stream if you prefer). This country is no different and whoever is in the driving seat will be no different to Thaksin in the corruption stakes and probably not as good in other areas.

[city]

Most supporters of Suthep on tv are 'educated Thais' trying to force their doctrine on Farangs. Least they forget..we are taught to question

[Bernard Flint]

This meglamaniac idiot has cost the nation Bht 500 million . Will he be asked to pay anything back, i doubt it as his judiciary have control.

It is B500 Billion plus, The BTS alone has lost B70 Million in ridership since mid March.

Where are the billions of baht that was consficated from Thaksin?????

[ShannonT]

I don't believe a word he says. He is trying to get sympathy from the people who used to come out and support him. He will just say he has a million people and continue the protest. However he will need a lot more than a million to win a victor over the government. There is not great victory for him, the government or the Thai people. Have elections now is the only way you can have reforms in the laws and in the constitution. No other way. Elections, reforms and than another election.

Only crackpots believed anything Suthep ever said and I agree with your post that Suthep simply will declare a million people present and continue on in his mad way.

Still, the more Suthep and the PDRC continue, the more likely it is they will become completely isolated, which should also prevent them stopping the next election.

So I would politely modify your sequence a mite to say elections, a representative constitutional convention, referendum. So that would be

Elections

Representative Constitutional Convention

Referendum

That would about do it.

Yes I think so.

What I would like to know from you PTP/red shirt supporters.

Do you honestly think this Govt is / has been run in a democratic manner as you would know in your own countries or any others?

Do you believe this Govt is pure a driven snow, not have committed numerous and blatant acts of corruption, cronyism, and nepotism?

Do you believe this govt populous policies where well thought out and for the benefit of all Thai people or only a select (very) few, and merely unsustainable campaign promises?

Do you honestly believe this govt has acted in a unbiased way to all Thai citizens and not shown total (biased) favoritism towards their supporters (red shirts)?

The last thing.

Do you believe that the anti govt protests are actually a bad thing and these people have no gripe of the current govt?

Obviously, you don't realise that when Suthep was in government corruption was at its highest with Khun Suthep the biggest "nose in the trough" So what good do you think the Dems would ever be in government again. They are finished, bye bye to Abishit and his boss Suthep..............on the garbage heap.

you are spreading malicious rumors, so beware of that stat!ement

Go read the Wikileaks about Thailand. The Democrats themselves said that Suthep is one of the most corrupt politicians in Thai history. He was the reason why the Leekpai government had to resign and in the next election Thaksin won by a landslide. Suthep himself even had to resign as an MP while he was deputy PM because he would have had to answer for his actions at a corruption trial and go to prison. He saved his bum by resigning.

Go look it up. No rumours ...just the truth.

[Bernard Flint]

Most supporters of Suthep on tv are 'educated Thais' trying to force their doctrine on Farangs. Least they forget..we are taught to question

He has many cronies/thugs and body guards from South Thailand. Noticed how dark their faces are, no way are they chinese/ thais, unless the white creams changed colour

[bobmac10]

That's brought 11 of you out very quick, just up your street, another thread about government blunders--no one.

IF A GOVERNMENT MAKES MISTAKES.... THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULACE GETS RID OF THEM AT THE NEXT ELECTION....

That's the way democracy works.

Not a crowd of political opponents rioting in the streets and demanding that they be given the right to govern.

It's that simple.

This was always an attempt to get the military to stage another coup.

This time however, the USA made it clear to the generals that they would not approve the military installed government.

SO ALL YOU DEM SUPPORTERS, THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE TO GET OUT THERE AND SUPPORT OLD SUTHEP!!!!

If it was that simple this thread would probably not exist.

...................................."SO ALL YOU DEM SUPPORTERS"....................................

Which ones ? Name them or admit you too are arguing with yourself, or just plain trolling.

Tsk Tsk Mike, it looks like I touched a raw nerve there, could I assume you are a Dem supporter?

I'll be looking for you in the crowd of adoring fans clapping old red face .

[oldsailor35]

What I find totally amazing is that so many farang on here get so worked up over a government and politics of which we have no say. What we say on here, collectively, good and bad, pro or con, doesn't mean crap to the Thai. Yes, we can discuss the topics, we can be pro or con, but for crying out loud, too many of you seem to feel that what you think is actually going to matter, when the reality is: IT DOESN'T. We're not Thai, and unless you have PR status, so our opinions mean diddly squat, no matter how good or bad thy might be. You attack posters who disagree with you, or have a different view, like a starving pit bull going after a fresh t-bone. It's a forum for DISCUSSION, people, and should be civilized, seeing as how most of us claim to be from more "civilized" countries. It's not a battlefield where we can see who can do the most damage with a winner-take-all attitude. If you disagree with someone, show your intelligence and do it in a civilized manner, instead of the 10yr old school yard bullying and name calling.

Just my opinion.

Many of us have Thai families who were denied their right to vote in an election because of the bully boy tactics of Suthep and the Dems. We all come from democratic countries where this kind of thuggery would not be tolerated. So despite the fact that we have no say in internal Thai politics, this does not deny us the right to display our out right frustration at the behaviour towards our loved ones.

[Bernard Flint]

one can only hope

so sick and tired of listening to this numbskull

wonder who's the armchair numbskull. are you hoping for the Shins to stay in power? is that why you are nagging??

Making assumptions Shiok???.....at what point did I mention I am a fan of the Shins?...what post are you reading?....and since you must know..I don't root for any politician...IMO, they are all con artists, crooks and scammers..I do however feel sorry for the poor sheep that believe and follow them to never never land...

Sutthep is as much of a power hungry crook as the top Shin...the words that vomit from his mouth are as deceitful as Big Shins...he talks a lot of mularkey and is so full of himself...he is borderline fascist, although maybe there already...who is nagging Shiok?

Many thais i speak with say they hate his artificial smile, i said dont be so silly he has got wind and letting a silent one out

[Bernard Flint]

What I find totally amazing is that so many farang on here get so worked up over a government and politics of which we have no say. What we say on here, collectively, good and bad, pro or con, doesn't mean crap to the Thai. Yes, we can discuss the topics, we can be pro or con, but for crying out loud, too many of you seem to feel that what you think is actually going to matter, when the reality is: IT DOESN'T. We're not Thai, and unless you have PR status, so our opinions mean diddly squat, no matter how good or bad thy might be. You attack posters who disagree with you, or have a different view, like a starving pit bull going after a fresh t-bone. It's a forum for DISCUSSION, people, and should be civilized, seeing as how most of us claim to be from more "civilized" countries. It's not a battlefield where we can see who can do the most damage with a winner-take-all attitude. If you disagree with someone, show your intelligence and do it in a civilized manner, instead of the 10yr old school yard bullying and name calling.

Just my opinion.

Many of us have Thai families who were denied their right to vote in an election because of the bully boy tactics of Suthep and the Dems. We all come from democratic countries where this kind of thuggery would not be tolerated. So despite the fact that we have no say in internal Thai politics, this does not deny us the right to display our out right frustration at the behaviour towards our loved ones.

Sir, i give you top marks for the post, well done

[shiok]

one can only hope

so sick and tired of listening to this numbskull

wonder who's the armchair numbskull. are you hoping for the Shins to stay in power? is that why you are nagging??

Making assumptions Shiok???.....at what point did I mention I am a fan of the Shins?...what post are you reading?....and since you must know..I don't root for any politician...IMO, they are all con artists, crooks and scammers..I do however feel sorry for the poor sheep that believe and follow them to never never land...

Sutthep is as much of a power hungry crook as the top Shin...the words that vomit from his mouth are as deceitful as Big Shins...he talks a lot of mularkey and is so full of himself...he is borderline fascist, although maybe there already...who is nagging Shiok?

you are. ..nagging ! by the way that's not an assumption, that was a question! so why are you so red faced if you are neutral? ?

[BigMountain]

The Bangkok Post to which we can't link here has made a breathtaking in its audacity op-ed piece about the real game at play here ( called Thaksin's Real War) and made hints that can surely only have been approved at the highest level at what is really going on. Maybe the game is about to change.

Excellent read, thanks. That's what I hear too from Thai, when you can get their confidence. He didn't mention a couple points, but I think only because they are not central to his opinion. Certainly he hit the nail on the head. I too wonder what approval he would have.

good read, thanks for the heads up

[ashwell28]

As a new member it's a bit disappointing to see so many posters slagging each other off, Clearly, members are as polarised as the Thai public, and I can understand each side having entrenched views on which they are not prepared to budge. Also, I note one particular poster getting his oar in every time anyone challenges his viewpoint. My goodness, 7,000+ posts - is that how you get to be an Advanced Member? My own view - and I hope I don't get banned for saying this - is that the moderators should intervene more often a) to cut drown on the pointless repeat rants and to turn this whole forum discussion into something more resembling a civilised debate

Let me make my non-political contribution to this new, more rational debate by introducing a few topics which I believe are worthy of further thought and discussion:-

- Thailand was an absolute monarchy until 1932 - compare and contrast with Western countries, eg. the UK, France, Russia. Bear in mind that Thailand was never colonised, whereas most other countries in Asia were or were under Western financial control (viz the Shanghai banking system de-camping to Hong Kong in 1949 when Mao Tse Dung took over China)

- Since 1932, Thailand has had 18 coup d'etats - why?

- each time, the main reason for overthrowing Thai governments was that they were CORRUPT

- interesting quote: "Corruption and bribery in all sectors have been on the rise. Most politicians were elected because of vote-buying and achieved a return on their investments by selling themselves to pass biased resolutions or corrupt budget bills. To win an election, an MP would pay around five hundred baht (10-20 USD) per person, totalling 10 to 30 million baht for a single election"

- Is this aimed at the recent Thaksin-led regimes? No, it refers to MOST Thai governments post-1988, so let's look at them:

- Chatichai government 1988-1991: On 23 February 1991, the military deposed Chatichai's government in a coup d'état. They accused the elected government of massive corruption and abuse of power for its own advantage. They charged several cabinet members, including Chatichai, with "unusual wealth"

- Chuan Leekpai (Democrat-led) 1st administration 1992-95: this was probably the most corrupt government in recent Thai political history by the number of cabinet members involved in corruption scandals and by amount of money embezzled. Interestingly, most commentators agree that the government was brought down by corrupt practices of the then Minister of Transport who brokered illegal land deals and used government funds to set up private co-operative ventures. This guy's name was - wait for it - Suthep Thaugsuban. So it seems he has experience in bringing down governments, including one he served in! Let's remind ourselves, too, that Suthep was forced to resign as an MP in 2009 when it was found that he held equity in a media firm which received concessions from the government

- Banharn (Chart Thai) government (1995-96): this PM was called Mr ATM by Thais for his habit of doling out money (usually under the table) for political favours.

- Chavalit (New Aspiration Party) government (1996-1997): the general and former head of the army patched together a coalition representing the interests of business elites, provincial bosses and local godfathers. And, I assume, the military. Say no more!

- Chuan Leekpai 2nd administration (1997-2001): this government was under the supervision of the IMF following the 1997 Asian Economic Crisis. Not surprisingly, it lost credibility when the country plunged into recession and 1 million Thais (guess where?) fell under the poverty line. This is the context under which we need to understand the rise of the populist Thaksin

- Thaksin 1st administration (2001-2005): TS won the election on an anti-IMF (i.e.. anti-austerity) program with three major spending pledges which contradicted the IMF edicts: moratorium on farmers' debts plus new credit lines; medical treatment for all at 30 baht; one million baht for each district to spend as it wished. This is the administration which cemented Thaksin's huge popularity amongst the rural and urban poor and has helped keep his various parties & coalitions in power ever since

- Thaksin 2nd administration (2005-2006): this is where TS overreached himself and things started to go wrong: using government to to favour his own businesses; subverting the press; buying allies and buying off opponents; the war on drugs, the Shin Corporation tax scandal etc etc.

- From 2006 onwards, events are fairly fresh in our minds. The rise of the opposition PAD, formation of UDD, the beginning of polarisation leading to the 2006 coup. It is worth reminding ourselves what the military junta actually did: They cancelled the upcoming elections, abrogated the Constitution, dissolved Parliament and Constitutional Court, banned protests and all political activities, suppressed and censored the media, declared martial law nationwide, and arrested Cabinet members. The new rulers appointed retired General Surayud Chulanont Premier. Martial law was lifted in 41 of Thailand's 76 provinces on 26 January 2007 but remained in place in another 35 provinces. Elections were held on 23 December 2007, after a military-appointed tribunal outlawed the Thai Rak Thai Party and banned TRT executives from contesting in elections for 5 years.

- My emphasis here is to highlight the fact that the first really popularly-approved 2007 Constitution was torn up and replaced by the army's (elite's) own constitution. It is also worth noting that they disbanded the then Constitutional Court and brought in their own Charter Court with a different composition. Part of the aim, of course, was to find something which they could stick on Thaksin to get him out of the way, a perfectly understandable tactic from their point of view, but a major factor in the current divisions of opinion, with one side saying he was set up by the elites and the others saying he was a crook who deserved his prison sentence. I will leave it to you to compare Thaksin's treatment by the courts and the treatment of the other Thai Rak Thai-associated PM's with the way other corrupt PM's have been treated (see below)

- General Surayud government (206-2008): This is the general who wanted the military out of politics. One of the reasons then-Prime Minister Chuan Leekpai picked Gen Surayud as Army Chief was because of the general's outspoken opinion - after the 1991 coup d’etat - that the army should never again get involved in government! After becoming Premier in 2006, he was accused of illegally owning forest land in Khao Yai Mountain. In February 2010 - after demonstrations by the "Red Shirts" at Khao Yai Mountain - Surayud, who by then had already left politics, returned the land to the Royal Forestry Department when it was found that the land was indeed located within forest reserve land. The plot of land is now under the Royal Forestry Department's care. However, up until now, no legal action has been taken by Thai authorities against him, This - together with Thaksin's case and the case against PM Samak (see below) - has been interpreted by the Red Shirts as an example of double standards by the judiciary. Worth mentioning here also the fate of the armed thugs who stormed the control tower at Suvarnabhumi airport (I'm not referring to the protesters who occupied the terminals). In what other country in the world would the perpetrators of such an attack get off scot-free? There are plenty of images and reports testifying to this in the press of the time.

- Samak government People's Power (2008): this is the PM who was removed from office for getting paid to appear on a TV cooking show. What a criminal!

- Somchai government People's Power (2008): Thaksin's brother-in-law didn't fare much better; he was removed and the party banned for election fraud

- Abhisit government (2008-2011): at last the Democrats got back into power with a little help from the army and the defection of the Friends of Newin faction from the disbanded PPP. In three years, you would have thought that they could have introduced at least some the urgent reforms they are now saying must be implemented before another election is held!

- Yingluk government (2011-2013): this re-incarnation of the ousted PPP was elected on a landslide majority and proved that TS was still calling the shots from behind the scenes. Obviously, this was more than the elites could stomach; before, every party/coalition got its turn at the "feeding trough"; now TS and his cronies were running off with every election due to the fact that they bribed the ignorant "buffaloes" in the North and North East. This raises another important issue which needs debating: all of Suthep's "campaign" has been Bangkok-based; he tried to close down Bangkok without much success. But Bangkok is not Thailand. The greatest fear of the elites is that someone like Thaksin will use democratic processes to undermine their power base. Many of Suthep's supporters have thrown out the line that the rural poor are not educated enough to be given a vote; that is why he is proposing that only he and his elitist friends be permitted to "choose" an interim PM and government

​- Yingluk caretaker government: (2013-?): so here we are pretty well up-to-date. The caretaker government limps on, and the elites are trying to figure out how to force it out. Watch this space!

All this is to make the important point that this is a class struggle in the traditional sense - a play for power with the old order trying to cling to its privileged position against a nascent democracy (with all its faults). And dominating the whole chaotic political scene in Thailand is the fear of the greater chaos which might ensue on the inevitable royal succession.

I have lived here now for 17 years and am hunkering down for more of the same. As the Chinese curse says: "May you live in interesting times"

[Publicus]

Only crackpots believed anything Suthep ever said and I agree with your post that Suthep simply will declare a million people present and continue on in his mad way.

Still, the more Suthep and the PDRC continue, the more likely it is they will become completely isolated, which should also prevent them stopping the next election.

So I would politely modify your sequence a mite to say elections, a representative constitutional convention, referendum. So that would be

Elections

Representative Constitutional Convention

Referendum

That would about do it.

Yes I think so.

What I would like to know from you PTP/red shirt supporters.

Do you honestly think this Govt is / has been run in a democratic manner as you would know in your own countries or any others?

Do you believe this Govt is pure a driven snow, not have committed numerous and blatant acts of corruption, cronyism, and nepotism?

Do you believe this govt populous policies where well thought out and for the benefit of all Thai people or only a select (very) few, and merely unsustainable campaign promises?

Do you honestly believe this govt has acted in a unbiased way to all Thai citizens and not shown total (biased) favoritism towards their supporters (red shirts)?

The last thing.

Do you believe that the anti govt protests are actually a bad thing and these people have no gripe of the current govt?

Obviously, you don't realise that when Suthep was in government corruption was at its highest with Khun Suthep the biggest "nose in the trough" So what good do you think the Dems would ever be in government again. They are finished, bye bye to Abishit and his boss Suthep..............on the garbage heap.

you are spreading malicious rumors, so beware of that stat!ement

So now comes the censorship and the enforcement of censorship by the self appointed censors who will defend truth and justice as defined by themselves only.

Truth or even personal opinion now instead become the circulating of "malicious rumors" which means the speaker needs to "beware" of any such statement considered seditious by the self appointed censors.

Many sources have pointed out Suthep's history of corruption whether as a minister or as an MP only. Suthep resigned as an MP so he could avoid a conviction that would have removed him from both his position as an MP and also as deputy prime minister - by resigning as an MP Suthep was able to preserve his position as a deputy PM.

The endgame here is more than obvious.

[Mackie]

All Thai politicians are corrupt except for Yingluck. However when Thaksin was PM., Thailand was going ahead and becoming a respected and prosperous nation. Abishit and his boss Suthep ended all that and eventually Suthep and the PRDC have managed to cost the nation Bht 500 mill and put the country backwards by many many years. ASEAN will have no respect for what Suthep has done to Thailand, regarding them to be the weak fools of Asia , to be used and manipulated. All this has been brought on by one person Suthep, in his push for outright personal power. His use of the name Thaksin was just the 'tool' he used.

Do we really have to go in circles? I'll just have to post for you some facts of life once again for the sake everyone involved in the latest Thai soap opera. So instead of trolling would you please kindly respond to the facts, facts only? Crimes are numerous...

More Dishonesty About Thailand's Upheaval From the International New York Times Sunday, 15 December 2013 00:00 By Michael Pirsch, Truthout | Op-Ed

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/20601-more-dishonesty-about-thailands-upheaval-from-the-international-new-york-times

International New York Times reporter Thomas Fuller downplays the seriousness of the corruption and brutality of former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his allies in the present government and dismisses the democratic character of the protests against them, says Michael Pirsch.

I have been reading accounts of the demonstrations in Thailand by Thomas Fuller of the International New York Times (INYT). I do not have a television, so I cannot comment on the nature of its coverage. The INYT coverage minimizes the cause of the protests. Consequently, readers in America receive a dishonest version that pits the democracy-loving Thaksin proxy government as the victim of an undemocratic mass protest that seeks to undermine democratic elections. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In truth, the demonstrators are sick of the corrupt nature of Thaksin Shinawatra, the fugitive former prime minister, who is defined by his corrupt behavior as a minister in government beginning in the mid '90s to the years of his official running of the country from 2000-2006. He has used his position in government first and foremost to enrich himself and his family. Even though he now lives in Dubai, he micro-manages the Thai government through his youngest sister Yingluck, the current Thai minister. In addition, Thais have not forgotten Thaksin's excesses, including murder, suppression of the media and his violent policies toward the southern Malay-Muslim provinces.

Thaksin was removed from office in 2006 as a result of a military coup conducted while Thaksin was in New York City preparing to give a speech at the opening session of the United Nations. The night before, Thaksin paid tribute to the makers of United States foreign policy, the Council on Foreign Relations. He was there in his capacity as a vital cog in the neoliberal policies of bringing corporate control to all (formerly) sovereign countries. The coup was conducted following large-scale protests against Thaksin's autocratic rule during which he executed many policies solely to benefit corporations in which he was the major shareholder. The last straw came when he sold his telecommunications firm to a Singaporean entity for several billion dollars. Two days before the deal was finalized, the Thai laws limiting foreign ownership of a Thai corporation were changed to increase that limit to 49 percent. Furthermore, Thaksin also arranged to have a capital gains tax precedent case removed so the deal would not be subject to any Thai taxes. Yes, Prime Minister Thaksin arranged not to pay more than 400 million dollars in taxes. This "last straw" followed a long string of abuses while he was prime minister.

He ordered a "War on Drugs" in early 2003. Within 3 months, more than 2,500 people were murdered, many of whom had no connections to drugs at all. It cannot be said with any certainty that none of those who were killed had any involvement with drugs since they were never arrested, charged or brought to trial. They were murdered so that Thaksin could maintain his popularity with poor people in villages that were suffering because of the meth epidemic.

The southernmost provinces of Thailand were ceded to Thailand by the British in the Anglo-Siamese Treaty of 1909. The population is overwhelmingly Malay-Muslim, and the first language of most residents is still Malay. This region has never become accustomed to being colonized, and Bangkok's efforts to administer the area have not been successful. At the time Thaksin became prime minister, the Thai army was conducting a campaign to involve the residents more in administering their affairs through the Southern Border Provinces Administrative Center (SBPAC). It was a period of very little violence. Thaksin dissolved the SBPAC and placed the Royal Thai Police in charge - which resulted in increased violence. The policy went from one that was progressively inclusive to one that was authoritarian and violent toward the southerners. A protest against Thaksin's policies took place in Tak Bae village. The army attacked the demonstration, resulting in the deaths of 89 people. Most of the dead were tortured to death by stacking bodies on top of each other until those at the bottom were crushed or suffocated. Thaksin blamed the victims for their deaths, stating that they died because they were observing the spiritual practice of fasting during the month of Ramadan. An incident at the Khrue Mosque resulted in the deaths of 11 people following a day of fighting between southerners and Thai authorities. The attack on the mosque involved tanks and heavy artillery.

When elected to parliament or appointed a deputy prime minister, a Thai politician must sign a declaration of assets. When he was appointed a deputy prime minister in the mid 90's, Thaksin did not list most of his shares in his various companies. Instead, he claimed he had transferred most of his shares to his housekeeper, cook, gardener, driver and security. Had this truly happened, those minimum-wage workers would have been among the richest people in Thailand. After his election and before he was sworn in as prime minister, this case came to trial. The court was truly afraid of convicting Thaksin, who had just won by a landslide of those voting. He even reminded them in testimony of his victory - leaving no doubt of the consequences of overturning his election. Thus, the court voted narrowly to clear him, paving the way for him to pursue even more wealth at the expense of the nation.

Thaksin held a 50 percent share in the low-cost airline Air Asia when he decided as prime minister to promote more low-cost airlines to service the increasing number of airports in Thailand. He arranged to charge Air Asia a substantially lower service charge for all fees paid by airlines for service at airports. This increased Air Asia's market share and greatly increased its profits. Thaksin's telecommunications company Advance Info Services (AIS) was the beneficiary of a special tax treatment on its corporate tax. When Thaksin traveled to meet other foreign leaders, at least one of his companies benefited through deals arranged between Thaksin and the foreign leader.

His corruption was truly legend. To adequately list each transgression would require writing a book. That is precisely what Chris Baker and Pasuk Phongpaichit did in their book titled Thaksin. It is an excellent reference to the excesses of Thaksin during his corporate and political career.

He has previously called himself the CEO of Thailand. In doing so, he naturally distances himself from any responsibility of governing for the benefit of the Thai people. Should he become successful in keeping his power over the Phuea Thai Party (his current proxy), the country of Thailand will become Thailand Inc. Thailand Inc. is responsible to its shareholders, not its citizens. Thailand Inc. must produce more, more and more wealth to its shareholders.

While prime minister, Thaksin arranged the sale of a stake in the national gas company, PTT. The public sale ended 2 minutes after it began and sold out the entire offering. Relatives of Thaksin and relatives of some of his government's ministers purchased the entire offering. This follows the neoliberal mandate of selling off each nation's public assets to the private sector.

Again, I have not referenced all the possible corruption charges he could face, but the INYT and others only mention his single corruption conviction involving the sale of prime downtown Bangkok real estate owned by the Thai government. This land was sold to Thaksin's wife at well below market price. His trial took place after the 2006 coup, but during the reign of one of his two proxy governments, which served him after the coup. The current government, led by his youngest sister, Yingluck, is his third proxy government. Between the end of the trial and the verdict, he petitioned the court for permission to travel to the 2008 Beijing Olympics. The court allowed his request while requiring his assurance he would return. He has never returned. He was convicted and sentenced to two years in prison. In spite of his conviction and his fugitive status, the Obama-Clinton State Department granted Thaksin a visa to enter the United States. At present, he runs Thailand from Dubai in the United Arab Emirates. No important decision is made by the government without his assent. His sister Yingluck remains the definition of a puppet prime minister...

[ginjag]

What I would like to know from you PTP/red shirt supporters.

Do you honestly think this Govt is / has been run in a democratic manner as you would know in your own countries or any others?

Do you believe this Govt is pure a driven snow, not have committed numerous and blatant acts of corruption, cronyism, and nepotism?

Do you believe this govt populous policies where well thought out and for the benefit of all Thai people or only a select (very) few, and merely unsustainable campaign promises?

Do you honestly believe this govt has acted in a unbiased way to all Thai citizens and not shown total (biased) favoritism towards their supporters (red shirts)?

The last thing.

Do you believe that the anti govt protests are actually a bad thing and these people have no gripe of the current govt?

Obviously, you don't realise that when Suthep was in government corruption was at its highest with Khun Suthep the biggest "nose in the trough" So what good do you think the Dems would ever be in government again. They are finished, bye bye to Abishit and his boss Suthep..............on the garbage heap.

you are spreading malicious rumors, so beware of that stat!ement

So now comes the censorship and the enforcement of censorship by the self appointed censors who will defend truth and justice as defined by themselves only.

Truth or even personal opinion now instead become the circulating of "malicious rumors" which means the speaker needs to "beware" of any such statement considered seditious by the self appointed censors.

Many sources have pointed out Suthep's history of corruption whether as a minister or as an MP only. Suthep resigned as an MP so he could avoid a conviction that would have removed him from both his position as an MP and also as deputy prime minister - by resigning as an MP Suthep was able to preserve his position as a deputy PM.

The endgame here is more than obvious.

All this dung talk because of a diabolical government.

[Bernard Flint]

As a new member it's a bit disappointing to see so many posters slagging each other off, Clearly, members are as polarised as the Thai public, and I can understand each side having entrenched views on which they are not prepared to budge. Also, I note one particular poster getting his oar in every time anyone challenges his viewpoint. My goodness, 7,000+ posts - is that how you get to be an Advanced Member? My own view - and I hope I don't get banned for saying this - is that the moderators should intervene more often a) to cut drown on the pointless repeat rants and to turn this whole forum discussion into something more resembling a civilised debate

Let me make my non-political contribution to this new, more rational debate by introducing a few topics which I believe are worthy of further thought and discussion:-

- Thailand was an absolute monarchy until 1932 - compare and contrast with Western countries, eg. the UK, France, Russia. Bear in mind that Thailand was never colonised, whereas most other countries in Asia were or were under Western financial control (viz the Shanghai banking system de-camping to Hong Kong in 1949 when Mao Tse Dung took over China)

- Since 1932, Thailand has had 18 coup d'etats - why?

- each time, the main reason for overthrowing Thai governments was that they were CORRUPT

- interesting quote: "Corruption and bribery in all sectors have been on the rise. Most politicians were elected because of vote-buying and achieved a return on their investments by selling themselves to pass biased resolutions or corrupt budget bills. To win an election, an MP would pay around five hundred baht (10-20 USD) per person, totalling 10 to 30 million baht for a single election"

- Is this aimed at the recent Thaksin-led regimes? No, it refers to MOST Thai governments post-1988, so let's look at them:

- Chatichai government 1988-1991: On 23 February 1991, the military deposed Chatichai's government in a coup d'état. They accused the elected government of massive corruption and abuse of power for its own advantage. They charged several cabinet members, including Chatichai, with "unusual wealth"

- Chuan Leekpai (Democrat-led) 1st administration 1992-95: this was probably the most corrupt government in recent Thai political history by the number of cabinet members involved in corruption scandals and by amount of money embezzled. Interestingly, most commentators agree that the government was brought down by corrupt practices of the then Minister of Transport who brokered illegal land deals and used government funds to set up private co-operative ventures. This guy's name was - wait for it - Suthep Thaugsuban. So it seems he has experience in bringing down governments, including one he served in! Let's remind ourselves, too, that Suthep was forced to resign as an MP in 2009 when it was found that he held equity in a media firm which received concessions from the government

- Banharn (Chart Thai) government (1995-96): this PM was called Mr ATM by Thais for his habit of doling out money (usually under the table) for political favours.

- Chavalit (New Aspiration Party) government (1996-1997): the general and former head of the army patched together a coalition representing the interests of business elites, provincial bosses and local godfathers. And, I assume, the military. Say no more!

- Chuan Leekpai 2nd administration (1997-2001): this government was under the supervision of the IMF following the 1997 Asian Economic Crisis. Not surprisingly, it lost credibility when the country plunged into recession and 1 million Thais (guess where?) fell under the poverty line. This is the context under which we need to understand the rise of the populist Thaksin

- Thaksin 1st administration (2001-2005): TS won the election on an anti-IMF (i.e.. anti-austerity) program with three major spending pledges which contradicted the IMF edicts: moratorium on farmers' debts plus new credit lines; medical treatment for all at 30 baht; one million baht for each district to spend as it wished. This is the administration which cemented Thaksin's huge popularity amongst the rural and urban poor and has helped keep his various parties & coalitions in power ever since

- Thaksin 2nd administration (2005-2006): this is where TS overreached himself and things started to go wrong: using government to to favour his own businesses; subverting the press; buying allies and buying off opponents; the war on drugs, the Shin Corporation tax scandal etc etc.

- From 2006 onwards, events are fairly fresh in our minds. The rise of the opposition PAD, formation of UDD, the beginning of polarisation leading to the 2006 coup. It is worth reminding ourselves what the military junta actually did: They cancelled the upcoming elections, abrogated the Constitution, dissolved Parliament and Constitutional Court, banned protests and all political activities, suppressed and censored the media, declared martial law nationwide, and arrested Cabinet members. The new rulers appointed retired General Surayud Chulanont Premier. Martial law was lifted in 41 of Thailand's 76 provinces on 26 January 2007 but remained in place in another 35 provinces. Elections were held on 23 December 2007, after a military-appointed tribunal outlawed the Thai Rak Thai Party and banned TRT executives from contesting in elections for 5 years.

- My emphasis here is to highlight the fact that the first really popularly-approved 2007 Constitution was torn up and replaced by the army's (elite's) own constitution. It is also worth noting that they disbanded the then Constitutional Court and brought in their own Charter Court with a different composition. Part of the aim, of course, was to find something which they could stick on Thaksin to get him out of the way, a perfectly understandable tactic from their point of view, but a major factor in the current divisions of opinion, with one side saying he was set up by the elites and the others saying he was a crook who deserved his prison sentence. I will leave it to you to compare Thaksin's treatment by the courts and the treatment of the other Thai Rak Thai-associated PM's with the way other corrupt PM's have been treated (see below)

- General Surayud government (206-2008): This is the general who wanted the military out of politics. One of the reasons then-Prime Minister Chuan Leekpai picked Gen Surayud as Army Chief was because of the general's outspoken opinion - after the 1991 coup d’etat - that the army should never again get involved in government! After becoming Premier in 2006, he was accused of illegally owning forest land in Khao Yai Mountain. In February 2010 - after demonstrations by the "Red Shirts" at Khao Yai Mountain - Surayud, who by then had already left politics, returned the land to the Royal Forestry Department when it was found that the land was indeed located within forest reserve land. The plot of land is now under the Royal Forestry Department's care. However, up until now, no legal action has been taken by Thai authorities against him, This - together with Thaksin's case and the case against PM Samak (see below) - has been interpreted by the Red Shirts as an example of double standards by the judiciary. Worth mentioning here also the fate of the armed thugs who stormed the control tower at Suvarnabhumi airport (I'm not referring to the protesters who occupied the terminals). In what other country in the world would the perpetrators of such an attack get off scot-free? There are plenty of images and reports testifying to this in the press of the time.

- Samak government People's Power (2008): this is the PM who was removed from office for getting paid to appear on a TV cooking show. What a criminal!

- Somchai government People's Power (2008): Thaksin's brother-in-law didn't fare much better; he was removed and the party banned for election fraud

- Abhisit government (2008-2011): at last the Democrats got back into power with a little help from the army and the defection of the Friends of Newin faction from the disbanded PPP. In three years, you would have thought that they could have introduced at least some the urgent reforms they are now saying must be implemented before another election is held!

- Yingluk government (2011-2013): this re-incarnation of the ousted PPP was elected on a landslide majority and proved that TS was still calling the shots from behind the scenes. Obviously, this was more than the elites could stomach; before, every party/coalition got its turn at the "feeding trough"; now TS and his cronies were running off with every election due to the fact that they bribed the ignorant "buffaloes" in the North and North East. This raises another important issue which needs debating: all of Suthep's "campaign" has been Bangkok-based; he tried to close down Bangkok without much success. But Bangkok is not Thailand. The greatest fear of the elites is that someone like Thaksin will use democratic processes to undermine their power base. Many of Suthep's supporters have thrown out the line that the rural poor are not educated enough to be given a vote; that is why he is proposing that only he and his elitist friends be permitted to "choose" an interim PM and government

​- Yingluk caretaker government: (2013-?): so here we are pretty well up-to-date. The caretaker government limps on, and the elites are trying to figure out how to force it out. Watch this space!

All this is to make the important point that this is a class struggle in the traditional sense - a play for power with the old order trying to cling to its privileged position against a nascent democracy (with all its faults). And dominating the whole chaotic political scene in Thailand is the fear of the greater chaos which might ensue on the inevitable royal succession.

I have lived here now for 17 years and am hunkering down for more of the same. As the Chinese curse says: "May you live in interesting times"

There was also a quote where Smiling Suthep stated that one yellow vote is worth 10 red votes. How can he gain extra votes with disgusting behaviour like that. You are right the Bangkok elite want the money now the bad dark boys of Issan. The farang posts can be guesed where they live, Bangkok or anywhere else

[Phuketboy]

This guy is one of the biggest Wan#$rs I have ever seen. Clearly the blind leading the blind. Is this guy even educated, cause everything he has done and the way he goes about things is something you would expect from an uneducated person. Maybe he is just a retarded gimp and needs a good punch in the face to wake him up.

[orpheus454]

I do not understand why people follow this guy, they suppose to be the educated ones. The education 'system' must be seriously wrong here ...

Perhaps your lack of understanding indicates a shortfall in your own education.