Hosni Mubarak jailed for three years for embezzlement

[webfact]

Hosni Mubarak jailed for three years for embezzlement

A court in Egypt has sentenced former President Hosni Mubarak to three years in prison after finding him guilty of embezzling public funds.

His two sons, Alaa and Gamal, were also convicted and given four-year terms.

Prosecutors had accused them of stealing $17.6m (£10.4m) earmarked for the renovation of presidential palaces.

The 86 year old is also on trial for abuse of power and conspiring in the killing of protesters during the 2011 uprising that forced him to resign.

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27499325

-- BBC 2014-05-21

[shirtless]

Typical politicians i wish this would happen to the crooks we have running Australia.

[rethaier]

I wish it would happen to the crooks running every country on the planet.

[ScotBkk]

I wish it would happen to the crooks running every country on the planet.

Wish I had the chance to get me dirty paws on the cash LOL!!

[Chicog]

So what's that, a billion or so per year?

[arjunadawn]

Not unlike Thailand, Mubarak was finally undone by the radical NGOs working the streets under the guise of human rights, democracy, feed the children, tides foundation, etc. There is a reason this was the first thing Russia (Syria) recently shut down and kicked out of the country. It is the reason the "Arab Spring" sprung and the color revolutions began! Nothing spontaneous. Not the evolution of a people's yearning for liberty.

Whether Mubarak should have remained in power or not is for historians but one thing is clear, he was finally toppled by the US and European allies working through "plausible deniability"-- NGOs on the ground. Mubarak was a strong man in a region where only the strong may lead. He was ruthless in a world where anything less was destroyed. I don't defend him, only that he was a reliable ally. Some scream this was over "Liberty" and "democracy," yet the puppeteers never had any inclination to allow real representative voting in Egypt (they cannot afford it); the Muslim Brotherhood was effectively bankrolled by the US Gov, much to the shock and outrage of those who deposed Mubarak. Indeed, only one year would pass before the MB was banned, rounded up, and even Obama's 1/2 brother indicted for financing terrorism. So, whats the moral of the story?

Democratic voting is a viable and productive way to have people elect for themselves the representatives to lead, govern, and represent their country to the world. Effectively realizing the weak spots in this process, the power of media to influence, and money littering the election battlefield to motivate, there are those who hijacked the entire Typical Election Apparatus and pretty much made an exportable "kit" our of it, but what is produced is hardly representative at all. Invariably what is produced is a handpicked patsy doing the bidding of masters across an ocean. The ability to package and export ready-made revolutions has been highly refined and we can now witness it being exported from Ukraine to Egypt, to Thailand! Ready-made= just add grievances, create bogyman to engender emotive content, then hijack this power to elect either false choice.

Mubarak was a dictator for life but he was a trusted western ally, the first line of defense against Wahhabi extremism, yet also despised locally. Like Qaddafi, artificial resistance groups sprang up with western money, agitation, and ready made democracy kits= puppet state! Mubarak was a recent "old schooler" who succumbed to this new subtle weapon- it is a weapon.

[peterb17]

I can sort of see where you are coming from- but can you give us examples/ links to reports of the activities of NGOs that are operating within the Kingdom- you do start you post " not unlike Thailand"

Can you also explain how these NGOs impact on the politics of the Kingdom

Which NGOs are actually present here?

Regards

[Ulic]

Tens of billions stolen but a conviction on embezzling a few million. I am left scratching my head. There must be

a number of charges pending in the pipeline.

[ezzra]

He's in jail anyway, been there for number of years already, so what different dose this sentence makes?

[simple1]

He's in jail anyway, been there for number of years already, so what different dose this sentence makes?

He has been under house arrest whilst awaiting completion of trail for other charges. I believe this is his first actual jail sentence as his previous life sentence was overturned

[wabothai]

We will never know the real truth !!

[Morch]

Not unlike Thailand, Mubarak was finally undone by the radical NGOs working the streets under the guise of human rights, democracy, feed the children, tides foundation, etc. There is a reason this was the first thing Russia (Syria) recently shut down and kicked out of the country. It is the reason the "Arab Spring" sprung and the color revolutions began! Nothing spontaneous. Not the evolution of a people's yearning for liberty.

Whether Mubarak should have remained in power or not is for historians but one thing is clear, he was finally toppled by the US and European allies working through "plausible deniability"-- NGOs on the ground. Mubarak was a strong man in a region where only the strong may lead. He was ruthless in a world where anything less was destroyed. I don't defend him, only that he was a reliable ally. Some scream this was over "Liberty" and "democracy," yet the puppeteers never had any inclination to allow real representative voting in Egypt (they cannot afford it); the Muslim Brotherhood was effectively bankrolled by the US Gov, much to the shock and outrage of those who deposed Mubarak. Indeed, only one year would pass before the MB was banned, rounded up, and even Obama's 1/2 brother indicted for financing terrorism. So, whats the moral of the story?

Democratic voting is a viable and productive way to have people elect for themselves the representatives to lead, govern, and represent their country to the world. Effectively realizing the weak spots in this process, the power of media to influence, and money littering the election battlefield to motivate, there are those who hijacked the entire Typical Election Apparatus and pretty much made an exportable "kit" our of it, but what is produced is hardly representative at all. Invariably what is produced is a handpicked patsy doing the bidding of masters across an ocean. The ability to package and export ready-made revolutions has been highly refined and we can now witness it being exported from Ukraine to Egypt, to Thailand! Ready-made= just add grievances, create bogyman to engender emotive content, then hijack this power to elect either false choice.

Mubarak was a dictator for life but he was a trusted western ally, the first line of defense against Wahhabi extremism, yet also despised locally. Like Qaddafi, artificial resistance groups sprang up with western money, agitation, and ready made democracy kits= puppet state! Mubarak was a recent "old schooler" who succumbed to this new subtle weapon- it is a weapon.

So basically, you're saying that people (other than you and others who believe in what you posted) are mindless drones, easily controlled and manipulated by a small global group at the top. This cabal, can apparently, not only control any political event

and development around the world, but can also anticipate any future developments and incorporate these into their plans.

The beauty of this theory is that nothing can ever be accepted as plausible proof that it is wrong. Every apparent mishap, every perceived hiccup is really a well calculated step in the unfolding of an intricate master plan. There is no room in it for random

choices, events and results. It's all figured out.

It would seem we're all doomed to live in thralldom, except for a handful of bright individuals who see things for what they really are and through them hope survives. Sounds like either a b-grade comic book or a wannabe cult (not going all the way to religion, these at least have some moral values attached).

Those evil men controlling global events don't seem to care much about websites and individuals spouting these theories. They

do not go after them, take them off the net, off the air (yes, I'm sure one can find a few examples, on the whole it doesn't happen). Seemed like they could squash the rumors and reports about their dastardly deeds quite easily, and yet they don't.

I'm sure the grand theory got an explanation, but anyway here are a few - "they" don't care, "they" don't work in concert on the

level supposed, "they" let the information flow as part of their design....which means everyone plays a part in their game.

Back to Egypt - USA bankrolls the Muslim Brothers? Really? Any chance of a non-totally-of-the-wall source for this?

There was no real discontent in the Arab world? The people out in the streets were all manipulated by the likes of Soros and Blair? Religious and social tensions do not come into it? Radical NGOs in Egypt bringing down the regime? Like....which ones? And did they really have that much clout to unseat Mubarak?

[arjunadawn]

Not unlike Thailand, Mubarak was finally undone by the radical NGOs working the streets under the guise of human rights, democracy, feed the children, tides foundation, etc. There is a reason this was the first thing Russia (Syria) recently shut down and kicked out of the country. It is the reason the "Arab Spring" sprung and the color revolutions began! Nothing spontaneous. Not the evolution of a people's yearning for liberty.

Whether Mubarak should have remained in power or not is for historians but one thing is clear, he was finally toppled by the US and European allies working through "plausible deniability"-- NGOs on the ground. Mubarak was a strong man in a region where only the strong may lead. He was ruthless in a world where anything less was destroyed. I don't defend him, only that he was a reliable ally. Some scream this was over "Liberty" and "democracy," yet the puppeteers never had any inclination to allow real representative voting in Egypt (they cannot afford it); the Muslim Brotherhood was effectively bankrolled by the US Gov, much to the shock and outrage of those who deposed Mubarak. Indeed, only one year would pass before the MB was banned, rounded up, and even Obama's 1/2 brother indicted for financing terrorism. So, whats the moral of the story?

Democratic voting is a viable and productive way to have people elect for themselves the representatives to lead, govern, and represent their country to the world. Effectively realizing the weak spots in this process, the power of media to influence, and money littering the election battlefield to motivate, there are those who hijacked the entire Typical Election Apparatus and pretty much made an exportable "kit" our of it, but what is produced is hardly representative at all. Invariably what is produced is a handpicked patsy doing the bidding of masters across an ocean. The ability to package and export ready-made revolutions has been highly refined and we can now witness it being exported from Ukraine to Egypt, to Thailand! Ready-made= just add grievances, create bogyman to engender emotive content, then hijack this power to elect either false choice.

Mubarak was a dictator for life but he was a trusted western ally, the first line of defense against Wahhabi extremism, yet also despised locally. Like Qaddafi, artificial resistance groups sprang up with western money, agitation, and ready made democracy kits= puppet state! Mubarak was a recent "old schooler" who succumbed to this new subtle weapon- it is a weapon.

So basically, you're saying that people (other than you and others who believe in what you posted) are mindless drones, easily controlled and manipulated by a small global group at the top. This cabal, can apparently, not only control any political event

and development around the world, but can also anticipate any future developments and incorporate these into their plans.

The beauty of this theory is that nothing can ever be accepted as plausible proof that it is wrong. Every apparent mishap, every perceived hiccup is really a well calculated step in the unfolding of an intricate master plan. There is no room in it for random

choices, events and results. It's all figured out.

It would seem we're all doomed to live in thralldom, except for a handful of bright individuals who see things for what they really are and through them hope survives. Sounds like either a b-grade comic book or a wannabe cult (not going all the way to religion, these at least have some moral values attached).

Those evil men controlling global events don't seem to care much about websites and individuals spouting these theories. They

do not go after them, take them off the net, off the air (yes, I'm sure one can find a few examples, on the whole it doesn't happen). Seemed like they could squash the rumors and reports about their dastardly deeds quite easily, and yet they don't.

I'm sure the grand theory got an explanation, but anyway here are a few - "they" don't care, "they" don't work in concert on the

level supposed, "they" let the information flow as part of their design....which means everyone plays a part in their game.

Back to Egypt - USA bankrolls the Muslim Brothers? Really? Any chance of a non-totally-of-the-wall source for this?

There was no real discontent in the Arab world? The people out in the streets were all manipulated by the likes of Soros and Blair? Religious and social tensions do not come into it? Radical NGOs in Egypt bringing down the regime? Like....which ones? And did they really have that much clout to unseat Mubarak?

Wow, Men are from Mars Women are from Venus. Clearly this is the place from which your adding values and words to my post that just don't otherwise exist. Not content with creating a strawman that hardly represents my post, you then proceed to eviscerate the point you've created for me; well done. You do realize others see how utterly devoid of value this is.

Of course I could hardly be expected to wade through your post when first you set out to ascribe to me positions I'd not inferred. But I will note this: it's utter rubbish that because people have a democratic package/apparatus insinuated on them they're somehow stupid or drones. What nonsense? These processes have all the components and adjuncts of modern societal infrastructure- everything from programs for women and kids, media setup, municipal organization, tribunals, to incorporation of former fighters into the workforce or army. The idea that this is a 3 card Monty street scam could only be envisioned in the narrow framework of a mind that would also post the drivel with a straight face.

This is not conspiracy. This is not diabolical. People who become involved in this imported democracy are not imbeciles. How one could muse into life such a notion such as you've posted might, ironically, suggest why this evolution of targeted foreign policy with NGOs is effective

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.

This topic is not about Thailand and discussion of subversive activities are not going to be tolerated, at least not at this point in time.

Stick to Egypt for now.

Your cooperation is appreciated.

[Morch]

Not unlike Thailand, Mubarak was finally undone by the radical NGOs working the streets under the guise of human rights, democracy, feed the children, tides foundation, etc. There is a reason this was the first thing Russia (Syria) recently shut down and kicked out of the country. It is the reason the "Arab Spring" sprung and the color revolutions began! Nothing spontaneous. Not the evolution of a people's yearning for liberty.

Whether Mubarak should have remained in power or not is for historians but one thing is clear, he was finally toppled by the US and European allies working through "plausible deniability"-- NGOs on the ground. Mubarak was a strong man in a region where only the strong may lead. He was ruthless in a world where anything less was destroyed. I don't defend him, only that he was a reliable ally. Some scream this was over "Liberty" and "democracy," yet the puppeteers never had any inclination to allow real representative voting in Egypt (they cannot afford it); the Muslim Brotherhood was effectively bankrolled by the US Gov, much to the shock and outrage of those who deposed Mubarak. Indeed, only one year would pass before the MB was banned, rounded up, and even Obama's 1/2 brother indicted for financing terrorism. So, whats the moral of the story?

Democratic voting is a viable and productive way to have people elect for themselves the representatives to lead, govern, and represent their country to the world. Effectively realizing the weak spots in this process, the power of media to influence, and money littering the election battlefield to motivate, there are those who hijacked the entire Typical Election Apparatus and pretty much made an exportable "kit" our of it, but what is produced is hardly representative at all. Invariably what is produced is a handpicked patsy doing the bidding of masters across an ocean. The ability to package and export ready-made revolutions has been highly refined and we can now witness it being exported from Ukraine to Egypt, to Thailand! Ready-made= just add grievances, create bogyman to engender emotive content, then hijack this power to elect either false choice.

Mubarak was a dictator for life but he was a trusted western ally, the first line of defense against Wahhabi extremism, yet also despised locally. Like Qaddafi, artificial resistance groups sprang up with western money, agitation, and ready made democracy kits= puppet state! Mubarak was a recent "old schooler" who succumbed to this new subtle weapon- it is a weapon.

So basically, you're saying that people (other than you and others who believe in what you posted) are mindless drones, easily controlled and manipulated by a small global group at the top. This cabal, can apparently, not only control any political event

and development around the world, but can also anticipate any future developments and incorporate these into their plans.

The beauty of this theory is that nothing can ever be accepted as plausible proof that it is wrong. Every apparent mishap, every perceived hiccup is really a well calculated step in the unfolding of an intricate master plan. There is no room in it for random

choices, events and results. It's all figured out.

It would seem we're all doomed to live in thralldom, except for a handful of bright individuals who see things for what they really are and through them hope survives. Sounds like either a b-grade comic book or a wannabe cult (not going all the way to religion, these at least have some moral values attached).

Those evil men controlling global events don't seem to care much about websites and individuals spouting these theories. They

do not go after them, take them off the net, off the air (yes, I'm sure one can find a few examples, on the whole it doesn't happen). Seemed like they could squash the rumors and reports about their dastardly deeds quite easily, and yet they don't.

I'm sure the grand theory got an explanation, but anyway here are a few - "they" don't care, "they" don't work in concert on the

level supposed, "they" let the information flow as part of their design....which means everyone plays a part in their game.

Back to Egypt - USA bankrolls the Muslim Brothers? Really? Any chance of a non-totally-of-the-wall source for this?

There was no real discontent in the Arab world? The people out in the streets were all manipulated by the likes of Soros and Blair? Religious and social tensions do not come into it? Radical NGOs in Egypt bringing down the regime? Like....which ones? And did they really have that much clout to unseat Mubarak?

Wow, Men are from Mars Women are from Venus. Clearly this is the place from which your adding values and words to my post that just don't otherwise exist. Not content with creating a strawman that hardly represents my post, you then proceed to eviscerate the point you've created for me; well done. You do realize others see how utterly devoid of value this is.

Of course I could hardly be expected to wade through your post when first you set out to ascribe to me positions I'd not inferred. But I will note this: it's utter rubbish that because people have a democratic package/apparatus insinuated on them they're somehow stupid or drones. What nonsense? These processes have all the components and adjuncts of modern societal infrastructure- everything from programs for women and kids, media setup, municipal organization, tribunals, to incorporation of former fighters into the workforce or army. The idea that this is a 3 card Monty street scam could only be envisioned in the narrow framework of a mind that would also post the drivel with a straight face.

This is not conspiracy. This is not diabolical. People who become involved in this imported democracy are not imbeciles. How one could muse into life such a notion such as you've posted might, ironically, suggest why this evolution of targeted foreign policy with NGOs is effective

My post was, in part, also directed at your other post which got deleted.

Back to Egypt - I note that there is still no mention of which NGOs supposedly brought Mubarak's downfall, nor any explanation to how they reached such level of clout without being noticed. Same goes for the claim that the Muslim Brotherhood is bankrolled by the USA.

[arjunadawn]

Morsh- intermittently engaging in rudeness and valid inquiry does not make you an enjoyable partner or opponent. Insofar as nothing I note is unusually hard to discern with an hour of honest online work, a fool, if curious, could simply look at the searches for English translation for Egypt's recent court cases, indictments, etc., and marry the search parameters with 'Obama, brother, US State Department, Bribes to Muslim Brotherhood members from US Attaches, Al Sisi- NGOs, GCC countries fund Egypt in place of US funds to MB...' Etc. In fact, only a clown would suppose their point of view remains wholly intact by virtue of sitting behind a keyboard and declaring "feed me sufficient facts that will convince me," or your wrong, or similar nonsense. This is the intellectual virtue of a dolt!

I'll help you: I've submitted statements I maintain are facts. You oppose them in your own way. I add nothing further to elaborate my point. You win... I don't know... A door prize. Yes, ok, a door prize. Congratulations. This concludes our talk. You win. It's all assertions without base.

(If your point regarding "deleted" pertains to a conversation I had with another poster (was that you?), on a different thread, by which I provided too much information about an NGO (the type of info you are again seeking) that the mod thought should be removed, and you have not done any research in the meantime, and yet you are trying to provoke some... well, this says more about you than I could ever surmise. Good luck with the trauma).

[simple1]

i guess it all boils down to differing POV. I personally do not subscribe to the view that US funded the Muslim Brotherhood as any funding provided to Egypt was a component of US negotiated AID prior to the Brotherhood coming to power. There are a number of conspiracy theories regarding this issue that are summarised at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood_conspiracy_theories

An example analysis of the structure & funding of the Muslim Brotherhood is below. I assume much of funding from outside of Egypt would be by diversion of funds from charities, in the same manner funding is illegally diverted from Islamic charities for extremist activities.

http://www.crethiplethi.com/the-structure-and-funding-sources-of-the-muslim-brotherhood/global-islam/2011/

[arjunadawn]

i guess it all boils down to differing POV. I personally do not subscribe to the view that US funded the Muslim Brotherhood as any funding provided to Egypt was a component of US negotiated AID prior to the Brotherhood coming to power. There are a number of conspiracy theories regarding this issue that are summarised at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood_conspiracy_theories

An example analysis of the structure & funding of the Muslim Brotherhood is below. I assume much of funding from outside of Egypt would be by diversion of funds from charities, in the same manner funding is illegally diverted from Islamic charities for extremist activities.

http://www.crethiplethi.com/the-structure-and-funding-sources-of-the-muslim-brotherhood/global-islam/2011/

Your post is thoughtful, concise, yet I find it unconvincing. An idiot intern could set up a Wikipedia site to malign those with valid observations, or concerns of violation of law. Indeed, this Wikipedia site was such an ad hoc catch all they threw some very different items in with the kitchen sink. Moreover, knowing the vast, vast size of US government's aggressive social network mitigation, false persona reporting, commenting, etc., by bots and real people using fake avatars, I would hardly consider this entry intellectually sustainable; it just can't muster past all the widely distributed evidence throughout the Middle East that the US gov under Obama, through State and OGA (Other government agency), were moving significant sums of money into the personal accounts of many Muslim brotherhood personnel before and after their US encouraged rise to power in Egypt. Indeed, the entire populAtion of Egypt is aware of this. Must middle eastern men and women do not find this information novel or conspiratorial. Even those who oppose Al Sisi acknowledge the judicially submitted documents about the US and MB pass the stink test. That's why they protested last year with signs stating US funds Al Queda: google image search- "Egyptian protest us funds terrorism."

This is why there were huge anti US protests in Egypt following Morisis deposing; the Egyptian military, the one significant carrot the US had, was threatened with withholding funds (how they would have done this escapes me because it is tied to Camp David Accord). But made no difference, contrary to the US GCC countries wanted MB gone so bad they had reps fly in with Billions in promissory notes the same day they overthrew the MB just to make up for any possible US funds withholding.

The money in question is not related to Camp David Funds. These were paid out under the table from US ppl directly to MB people. If a Wikipedia entry suggesting conspiracy is enough to dissuade someone from probing further than no amount of entries would prove useful; however, I have included a few. I assert all of US involvement in ME is imperial and duplicitous. Libya, Egypt, Syria, Africa, etc., it's suggested quite intelligently serve to create al queda patsies to depose Shia friendly despots and encircle Iran - See Persia, Path to Peace- String of Pearls theory. But I maintain it is more ideological for Obama. (Please don't ask where Fox News and CNN stories are, AP, etc) I just pulled on iPad:

http://almesryoon.com/ملفات/200837-اتهامات-تلاحق-الإخوان

http://www.elwatannews.com/news/details/273605

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/obama-accused-of-crimes-against-humanity/

http://www.westernjournalism.com/watch-egyptian-lawyers-charge-obama-with-crimes-against-humanity/

http://adinakutnicki.com/2012/09/25/the-ties-that-bind-the-islamist-in-chief-to-sunni-islam-making-sense-out-of-a-potus-bowing-to-a-saudi-monarch-commentary-by-adina-kutnicki/

http://www.inquisitr.com/1009405/the-muslim-brotherhoods-quest-for-global-dominance-an-interview-with-adina-kutnicki/

http://www.youm7.com/News.asp?NewsID=1223934

http://www.emannabih.com/mohamed-morsis-trial-will-reveal-documents-could-put-barack-obama-in-prison/

http://www.examiner.com/article/did-the-obama-administration-pay-bribes-to-muslim-brotherhood-leaders

http://www.examiner.com/article/egyptian-lawyers-file-criminal-terrorism-charges-against-obama-the-icc

http://article.wn.com/view/2013/12/11/Uproar_in_Egyptian_Court_Halts_Trial_of_Muslim_Brotherhood_L/

http://sreaves32.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/trial-evidence-u-s-favored-muslim-brotherhood/

http://shoebat.com/2013/08/23/evidence-u-s-bribed-egypts-muslim-brotherhood/

[boomerangutang]

Tens of billions stolen but a conviction on embezzling a few million. I am left scratching my head. There must be a number of charges pending in the pipeline.

Like busting Al Capone or trying to bust Thaksin. It's not easy getting credible evidence together for big rip-offs, as the conspirators are so adept at hiding their transaction trails. However, you just might get enough evidence together to bust 'em on a relatively small charge. Anything's better than nothing.

He's in jail anyway, been there for number of years already, so what different dose this sentence makes?

He has been under house arrest whilst awaiting completion of trail for other charges. I believe this is his first actual jail sentence as his previous life sentence was overturned

I very much doubt he'll ever see the inside of an Egyptian prison, certainly not the type with 7 guys sharing a room built for 2, with perhaps one little electric fan which has to be re-positioned by hand every twenty seconds, to be fairly useful for all the guys in the room. Where the only reading material is a tattered ear-doctor report from 32 years prior.

[Morch]

Morsh- intermittently engaging in rudeness and valid inquiry does not make you an enjoyable partner or opponent. Insofar as nothing I note is unusually hard to discern with an hour of honest online work, a fool, if curious, could simply look at the searches for English translation for Egypt's recent court cases, indictments, etc., and marry the search parameters with 'Obama, brother, US State Department, Bribes to Muslim Brotherhood members from US Attaches, Al Sisi- NGOs, GCC countries fund Egypt in place of US funds to MB...' Etc. In fact, only a clown would suppose their point of view remains wholly intact by virtue of sitting behind a keyboard and declaring "feed me sufficient facts that will convince me," or your wrong, or similar nonsense. This is the intellectual virtue of a dolt!

I'll help you: I've submitted statements I maintain are facts. You oppose them in your own way. I add nothing further to elaborate my point. You win... I don't know... A door prize. Yes, ok, a door prize. Congratulations. This concludes our talk. You win. It's all assertions without base.

(If your point regarding "deleted" pertains to a conversation I had with another poster (was that you?), on a different thread, by which I provided too much information about an NGO (the type of info you are again seeking) that the mod thought should be removed, and you have not done any research in the meantime, and yet you are trying to provoke some... well, this says more about you than I could ever surmise. Good luck with the trauma).

I am not posting in order to be an "enjoyable partner" nor do I see you as an opponent.

As for rudeness, here's a selection from your own posts on this topic - "rubbish", "utterly devoid of value", "drivel", "fool",

"clown", "nonsense", "dolt". Quite entertaining.

A generally accepted convention is that when one makes a claim challenging a perceived normal state of affairs, the onus

of proof lies with him, not with the audience.

Saying you cannot be expected to "wade", though a post seems, and at the same time expecting the very same from people

reading yours is rich. May I suggest the normal way of discussing news items on this forum (and others) is not by raising a host of outlandish claims, some not directly related to topic, knitting them all together to fit a preconceived agenda - all without bothering to provide any support as such, and directing inquiries to search the net and do their own research. Unless we live in

different internet cultures, expecting people to either accept assertions or spend their time to verify each and every claim you

make is neither reasonable, nor polite. It is, plainly speaking, rude. Again, more entertainment.

The proposed search, will without doubt produce links and articles which supposedly corroborate the point of view presented.

Taking the time to actually read the contents will reveal that most citations are either blogs, conspiracy theory websites, radical

news agencies and organizations with vested political interest. Hardly an objective bunch, all things considered.

Furthermore, a lot of the search results will be instances of the same story, replicated over and over again, thereby landing

it a certain faux credibility by merit of quantity.

Pointing this out, however, is bound to be countered by claims the reputable media outlets are controlled, manipulated, bought, compromised and for all intents and purposes, irrelevant.

If one insists on treating these sort of sources as the sole credible ones, it leaves very little room for discussion, and we move

into the realm of theological debate - either one is a believer, or he is not. As my point of view on matters discussed is formed by years of living and working in the Middle East, and not by accepting loon websites as gospel, we are indeed at an impasse.

(Regarding your deleted post - No. The eluded to was made on this topic, expanding your views in response to a favorable

comment by another poster. It was not in reference to anything to do with Thailand, nor did I have a previous exchange with you on this matters in other topics, as far as I recall. On the whole, this makes the last part of your post quite uncalled for).

[arjunadawn]

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/01/07/us-ngo-uncovered-in-ukraine-protests/

As recently as NOW they are finding the fingerprints of the Cairo revolution through NGOs in Ukraine. This is the most in the open insidious form of revolution imaginable. Countries should manage their NGOs as very possible national security threats.

[Morch]

i guess it all boils down to differing POV. I personally do not subscribe to the view that US funded the Muslim Brotherhood as any funding provided to Egypt was a component of US negotiated AID prior to the Brotherhood coming to power. There are a number of conspiracy theories regarding this issue that are summarised at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood_conspiracy_theories

An example analysis of the structure & funding of the Muslim Brotherhood is below. I assume much of funding from outside of Egypt would be by diversion of funds from charities, in the same manner funding is illegally diverted from Islamic charities for extremist activities.

http://www.crethiplethi.com/the-structure-and-funding-sources-of-the-muslim-brotherhood/global-islam/2011/

Your post is thoughtful, concise, yet I find it unconvincing. An idiot intern could set up a Wikipedia site to malign those with valid observations, or concerns of violation of law. Indeed, this Wikipedia site was such an ad hoc catch all they threw some very different items in with the kitchen sink. Moreover, knowing the vast, vast size of US government's aggressive social network mitigation, false persona reporting, commenting, etc., by bots and real people using fake avatars, I would hardly consider this entry intellectually sustainable; it just can't muster past all the widely distributed evidence throughout the Middle East that the US gov under Obama, through State and OGA (Other government agency), were moving significant sums of money into the personal accounts of many Muslim brotherhood personnel before and after their US encouraged rise to power in Egypt. Indeed, the entire populAtion of Egypt is aware of this. Must middle eastern men and women do not find this information novel or conspiratorial. Even those who oppose Al Sisi acknowledge the judicially submitted documents about the US and MB pass the stink test. That's why they protested last year with signs stating US funds Al Queda: google image search- "Egyptian protest us funds terrorism."

This is why there were huge anti US protests in Egypt following Morisis deposing; the Egyptian military, the one significant carrot the US had, was threatened with withholding funds (how they would have done this escapes me because it is tied to Camp David Accord). But made no difference, contrary to the US GCC countries wanted MB gone so bad they had reps fly in with Billions in promissory notes the same day they overthrew the MB just to make up for any possible US funds withholding.

The money in question is not related to Camp David Funds. These were paid out under the table from US ppl directly to MB people. If a Wikipedia entry suggesting conspiracy is enough to dissuade someone from probing further than no amount of entries would prove useful; however, I have included a few. I assert all of US involvement in ME is imperial and duplicitous. Libya, Egypt, Syria, Africa, etc., it's suggested quite intelligently serve to create al queda patsies to depose Shia friendly despots and encircle Iran - See Persia, Path to Peace- String of Pearls theory. But I maintain it is more ideological for Obama. (Please don't ask where Fox News and CNN stories are, AP, etc) I just pulled on iPad:

http://almesryoon.com/ملفات/200837-اتهامات-تلاحق-الإخوان

http://www.elwatannews.com/news/details/273605

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/obama-accused-of-crimes-against-humanity/

http://www.westernjournalism.com/watch-egyptian-lawyers-charge-obama-with-crimes-against-humanity/

http://adinakutnicki.com/2012/09/25/the-ties-that-bind-the-islamist-in-chief-to-sunni-islam-making-sense-out-of-a-potus-bowing-to-a-saudi-monarch-commentary-by-adina-kutnicki/

http://www.inquisitr.com/1009405/the-muslim-brotherhoods-quest-for-global-dominance-an-interview-with-adina-kutnicki/

http://www.youm7.com/News.asp?NewsID=1223934

http://www.emannabih.com/mohamed-morsis-trial-will-reveal-documents-could-put-barack-obama-in-prison/

http://www.examiner.com/article/did-the-obama-administration-pay-bribes-to-muslim-brotherhood-leaders

http://www.examiner.com/article/egyptian-lawyers-file-criminal-terrorism-charges-against-obama-the-icc

http://article.wn.com/view/2013/12/11/Uproar_in_Egyptian_Court_Halts_Trial_of_Muslim_Brotherhood_L/

http://sreaves32.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/trial-evidence-u-s-favored-muslim-brotherhood/

http://shoebat.com/2013/08/23/evidence-u-s-bribed-egypts-muslim-brotherhood/

Seems like the Straw man mentioned earlier just came to life.

I don't know how other folks read this, but to me it sounds like conspiracy theory 101.

The notion that it is possible to freely edit Wikipedia articles pertaining to ongoing news stories and/or controversial

issues, and get away with it without anyone noticing is unfounded. If you (or anyone else) believe otherwise, just

give it a shot and see what happens. Simply doesn't work this way - either a vigilant contributor from the opposing

side will raise hell, or one of the resident pedantics would. As a rule, the arguments regarding changes are public,

and are easily accessible. There are also a bunch of guidelines, someone is bound to comment if an edit strays too

far or does not conform.

If the USA government is so effective in controlling social media and flow of information on the net, it does raise an

interesting question regarding the credibility and validity of many a website, including those that propagate the same

line of thinking evident in your posts. Going down this road means one sees most of the available information as

potentially compromised, and to adopting a Trust No One! stance ,which again leaves very little room for discussion.

If, on the other hand, one does not wish to uphold the hidden assumption of USA government's omnipotence, then

it seems like this massive cover up operation, aimed at manipulating information, somehow routinely fails to do a

very good job. After all, there are loads of websites telling it how it is, messy loose ends and evidence left all over

the place. So maybe there is nothing to worry about seeing they are so sloppy.

Not claiming they do not engage in such activities. The USA government most definitely meddles, manipulates and

plots (as do other countries and organizations). I do, however, think that some overestimate the effectiveness of such

interventions and their scope of influence.

Back to Egypt, then.

There is a story doing the rounds that evidence surfaced during the trial to the effect that payments were made by

the USA to the Muslim Brotherhood, and a supposedly related story (this time with alleged evidence) of a greater

scandal.

Both stories, in one version or another are not new. The current one has been around since last year. One would

have thought that if there was more to it, Obama would be behind bars right now. As is stands, it does not look like

anything leading to this eventuality is currently taking place. One could see this as a coverup (but how so if it is on

the net?) or as not having quite enough beef for the his political rivals to sink their teeth in (and I'm no Obama fan,

just to get this out of the way). Furthermore, the Egyptian press, on the whole, is not a bastion of quality reporting.

Media is rife with bizarre stories - animals in service of Israel is an old favorite, accounts of lurid Coptic offenses

directed at Muslims in another.

As for the proof cited, well...since when is the Egyptian judiciary considered a paragon of justice? As a reminder,

they just dished out mass death penalty sentences, and did some quite amazing legal maneuvering with all the

regime and constitutions changes. I would not place blind faith in any evidence produced domestically, without

proper external verification. Worth to bear in mind that both the judiciary and the press are not well known for

taking a head-on approach when dealing with the Army - as opposed to the USA, the Egyptian regime applies a

somewhat more forceful hand when dealing with information.

The entire population of Egypt is aware that USA bankrolls the Muslim Brotherhood. No less.

Does that include about half the population which supports the Muslim Brotherhood? As mentioned above,

rumors and conspiracy theories are somewhat of a national hobby in Egypt. Not a rarity to find such a story,

with pretty much the same details, just making the final villain to be either of the sides (this, by the way, applies

nicely to the so-called bigger scandal). There were also stories that the USA bankrolled the demonstrations

against Morsi's regime, and inevitably, both sides were portrayed at one point or another as colluding with Israel.

The quality of reporting being what it is, and education being in a sorry state - Egypt is a fertile ground for basically

anything. It does not necessarily make this rumors true. It could also be assumed that certain players would have

an interest in propagating such stories, as part of a competition with the USA.

Wading through the links provided - some are Egyptian press, and some are blogs. Not exactly what I have in mind

when I think about credible reporting or journalistic standards. Was about to add that neither Joseph Farah, nor

Adina Kutnicki may be considered objective and impartial, but seeing as Walid Shoebat is included the point is moot.

Mention of the latter in any post having a go at Obama is always quite funny. Well done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeBTyhN2Bu4&feature=kp

[simple1]

There is a great deal of nonsense being propagated by the US right wing & others regarding the Obama Administration relations with the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaeda. It would be fair to say the Administration was naïve regards the end goals of the Brotherhood in Egypt, but they were fairly elected. Morsi rescinded on his promises not to implement Islamist policies, for which he paid the price.

We have US right wing making statements (refer URL below) such as “the al-Qaida and Muslim Brotherhood-dominated revolutions that many call the ‘Arab Spring,’ but which in fact are more accurately termed an ‘Islamic Awakening”. You have to argue that the supression of the Arab Spring by a number of dictatorships was the root cause for the consolidation of Islamic extremist organisations, not the popular Arab Spring movement.

http://www.wnd.com/2014/01/general-muslim-brotherhood-inside-obama-administration/#H4gUbBcqxu9LGv46.99

There is an article from the Foreign Policy Magazine that in my opinion is accurate.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/08/the_gift_al_qaeda_arab_spring

[arjunadawn]

i guess it all boils down to differing POV. I personally do not subscribe to the view that US funded the Muslim Brotherhood as any funding provided to Egypt was a component of US negotiated AID prior to the Brotherhood coming to power. There are a number of conspiracy theories regarding this issue that are summarised at:

An example analysis of the structure & funding of the Muslim Brotherhood is below. I assume much of funding from outside of Egypt would be by diversion of funds from charities, in the same manner funding is illegally diverted from Islamic charities for extremist activities.

Your post is thoughtful, concise, yet I find it unconvincing. An idiot intern could set up a Wikipedia site to malign those with valid observations, or concerns of violation of law. Indeed, this Wikipedia site was such an ad hoc catch all they threw some very different items in with the kitchen sink. Moreover, knowing the vast, vast size of US government's aggressive social network mitigation, false persona reporting, commenting, etc., by bots and real people using fake avatars, I would hardly consider this entry intellectually sustainable; it just can't muster past all the widely distributed evidence throughout the Middle East that the US gov under Obama, through State and OGA (Other government agency), were moving significant sums of money into the personal accounts of many Muslim brotherhood personnel before and after their US encouraged rise to power in Egypt. Indeed, the entire populAtion of Egypt is aware of this. Must middle eastern men and women do not find this information novel or conspiratorial. Even those who oppose Al Sisi acknowledge the judicially submitted documents about the US and MB pass the stink test. That's why they protested last year with signs stating US funds Al Queda: google image search- "Egyptian protest us funds terrorism."

This is why there were huge anti US protests in Egypt following Morisis deposing; the Egyptian military, the one significant carrot the US had, was threatened with withholding funds (how they would have done this escapes me because it is tied to Camp David Accord). But made no difference, contrary to the US GCC countries wanted MB gone so bad they had reps fly in with Billions in promissory notes the same day they overthrew the MB just to make up for any possible US funds withholding.

The money in question is not related to Camp David Funds. These were paid out under the table from US ppl directly to MB people. If a Wikipedia entry suggesting conspiracy is enough to dissuade someone from probing further than no amount of entries would prove useful; however, I have included a few. I assert all of US involvement in ME is imperial and duplicitous. Libya, Egypt, Syria, Africa, etc., it's suggested quite intelligently serve to create al queda patsies to depose Shia friendly despots and encircle Iran - See Persia, Path to Peace- String of Pearls theory. But I maintain it is more ideological for Obama. (Please don't ask where Fox News and CNN stories are, AP, etc) I just pulled on iPad:

http://almesryoon.com/ملفات/200837-اتهامات-تلاحق-الإخوان

http://www.elwatannews.com/news/details/273605

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/obama-accused-of-crimes-against-humanity/

http://www.westernjournalism.com/watch-egyptian-lawyers-charge-obama-with-crimes-against-humanity/

http://adinakutnicki.com/2012/09/25/the-ties-that-bind-the-islamist-in-chief-to-sunni-islam-making-sense-out-of-a-potus-bowing-to-a-saudi-monarch-commentary-by-adina-kutnicki/

http://www.inquisitr.com/1009405/the-muslim-brotherhoods-quest-for-global-dominance-an-interview-with-adina-kutnicki/

http://www.youm7.com/News.asp?NewsID=1223934

http://www.emannabih.com/mohamed-morsis-trial-will-reveal-documents-could-put-barack-obama-in-prison/

http://www.examiner.com/article/did-the-obama-administration-pay-bribes-to-muslim-brotherhood-leaders

http://www.examiner.com/article/egyptian-lawyers-file-criminal-terrorism-charges-against-obama-the-icc

http://article.wn.com/view/2013/12/11/Uproar_in_Egyptian_Court_Halts_Trial_of_Muslim_Brotherhood_L/

http://sreaves32.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/trial-evidence-u-s-favored-muslim-brotherhood/

http://shoebat.com/2013/08/23/evidence-u-s-bribed-egypts-muslim-brotherhood/

Seems like the Straw man mentioned earlier just came to life.

I don't know how other folks read this, but to me it sounds like conspiracy theory 101.

The notion that it is possible to freely edit Wikipedia articles pertaining to ongoing news stories and/or controversial

issues, and get away with it without anyone noticing is unfounded. If you (or anyone else) believe otherwise, just

give it a shot and see what happens. Simply doesn't work this way - either a vigilant contributor from the opposing

side will raise hell, or one of the resident pedantics would. As a rule, the arguments regarding changes are public,

and are easily accessible. There are also a bunch of guidelines, someone is bound to comment if an edit strays too

far or does not conform.

If the USA government is so effective in controlling social media and flow of information on the net, it does raise an

interesting question regarding the credibility and validity of many a website, including those that propagate the same

line of thinking evident in your posts. Going down this road means one sees most of the available information as

potentially compromised, and to adopting a Trust No One! stance ,which again leaves very little room for discussion.

If, on the other hand, one does not wish to uphold the hidden assumption of USA government's omnipotence, then

it seems like this massive cover up operation, aimed at manipulating information, somehow routinely fails to do a

very good job. After all, there are loads of websites telling it how it is, messy loose ends and evidence left all over

the place. So maybe there is nothing to worry about seeing they are so sloppy.

Not claiming they do not engage in such activities. The USA government most definitely meddles, manipulates and

plots (as do other countries and organizations). I do, however, think that some overestimate the effectiveness of such

interventions and their scope of influence.

Back to Egypt, then.

There is a story doing the rounds that evidence surfaced during the trial to the effect that payments were made by

the USA to the Muslim Brotherhood, and a supposedly related story (this time with alleged evidence) of a greater

scandal.

Both stories, in one version or another are not new. The current one has been around since last year. One would

have thought that if there was more to it, Obama would be behind bars right now. As is stands, it does not look like

anything leading to this eventuality is currently taking place. One could see this as a coverup (but how so if it is on

the net?) or as not having quite enough beef for the his political rivals to sink their teeth in (and I'm no Obama fan,

just to get this out of the way). Furthermore, the Egyptian press, on the whole, is not a bastion of quality reporting.

Media is rife with bizarre stories - animals in service of Israel is an old favorite, accounts of lurid Coptic offenses

directed at Muslims in another.

As for the proof cited, well...since when is the Egyptian judiciary considered a paragon of justice? As a reminder,

they just dished out mass death penalty sentences, and did some quite amazing legal maneuvering with all the

regime and constitutions changes. I would not place blind faith in any evidence produced domestically, without

proper external verification. Worth to bear in mind that both the judiciary and the press are not well known for

taking a head-on approach when dealing with the Army - as opposed to the USA, the Egyptian regime applies a

somewhat more forceful hand when dealing with information.

The entire population of Egypt is aware that USA bankrolls the Muslim Brotherhood. No less.

Does that include about half the population which supports the Muslim Brotherhood? As mentioned above,

rumors and conspiracy theories are somewhat of a national hobby in Egypt. Not a rarity to find such a story,

with pretty much the same details, just making the final villain to be either of the sides (this, by the way, applies

nicely to the so-called bigger scandal). There were also stories that the USA bankrolled the demonstrations

against Morsi's regime, and inevitably, both sides were portrayed at one point or another as colluding with Israel.

The quality of reporting being what it is, and education being in a sorry state - Egypt is a fertile ground for basically

anything. It does not necessarily make this rumors true. It could also be assumed that certain players would have

an interest in propagating such stories, as part of a competition with the USA.

Wading through the links provided - some are Egyptian press, and some are blogs. Not exactly what I have in mind

when I think about credible reporting or journalistic standards. Was about to add that neither Joseph Farah, nor

Adina Kutnicki may be considered objective and impartial, but seeing as Walid Shoebat is included the point is moot.

Mention of the latter in any post having a go at Obama is always quite funny. Well done.

Great response. You've line itemed addressed as seemingly disarmed so many points; yet you've accomplished nothing. Some points are super valid: I get it, Shobat, and a few others detracts from my point. Yet throughout the Muslim world many see this. I am not Muslim nor Egyptian but I have considerable experience with both. When a person authoritatively demonstrates sources of other information or not credible, but then cite and support references with no more credibility, it comes out. Your assertion that Wikipedia is a valid source for information is laughable. Indeed, you'd be expelled Fromm school if you asserted that nonsense. But there is a component of information collection that must rely on alternative sources; Wikipedia hardly being one of them.

I conclude only by saying you make good points, you wind up at the wrong location. You've spent so much effort simply proving me wrong you've hardly proved you right. Time will show that I am correct. Indeed, this very mechanism is one of two reasons relations have soured with former US allies in the Mideast- the other being Syria, which incidentally tied directly to Obama admin MB push in Egypt. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. When you later have your epiphany you can take pride we covered this earlier.

[Morch]

Great response. You've line itemed addressed as seemingly disarmed so many points; yet you've accomplished nothing. Some points are super valid: I get it, Shobat, and a few others detracts from my point. Yet throughout the Muslim world many see this. I am not Muslim nor Egyptian but I have considerable experience with both. When a person authoritatively demonstrates sources of other information or not credible, but then cite and support references with no more credibility, it comes out. Your assertion that Wikipedia is a valid source for information is laughable. Indeed, you'd be expelled Fromm school if you asserted that nonsense. But there is a component of information collection that must rely on alternative sources; Wikipedia hardly being one of them.

I conclude only by saying you make good points, you wind up at the wrong location. You've spent so much effort simply proving me wrong you've hardly proved you right. Time will show that I am correct. Indeed, this very mechanism is one of two reasons relations have soured with former US allies in the Mideast- the other being Syria, which incidentally tied directly to Obama admin MB push in Egypt. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. When you later have your epiphany you can take pride we covered this earlier.

I do not argue that many in the Muslim world believe that the USA is the root of all that is evil. This is true. I do argue that this common belief in the Muslim world is not necessarily very objective, and is susceptible to manipulation. That is not to say that the USA have not done a lot to enhance this point of view, it did.

Wikipedia, in itself, is not a source. This was never claimed. Instead, it presents articles which are based on acceptable sources, usually details and vetted. I'm aware that the distinction is difficult for some. Another way of putting it would be to say that there are no opinion columns on Wikipedia. Contrary to your assertion, one would not be expelled from any school for citing Wikipedia, at most it would be pointed out he should cite the actual source provided in the article.

The claim that "there is a component of information collection that must rely on alternative sources" is simply not true. There is no obligation to use alternative sources. There isn't even a definition of what "alternative" means in this context. If anything, there is an obligation to rely on sources which are generally acceptable as credible.

Not quite sure that I had something to prove "right" here. The claim of foul play was yours, I just demonstrated flaws in the claim that the accepted state of affairs is a sham.