NCPO cites three reasons to explain to need for coup making: Winthai

[wolf5370]

So coups are ok if a minority, Suthep's thugs, might obstruct an election? I can think of a plan B; don't let the minority obstruct the election. If the police can't do it on their own, let the military assist. Of course that requires a military committed to defending democracy,

I didn't say right or wrong at all - that's you take on it - I simply disagreed with your premise that a July election would give us an elected democratic government and an end to protest. Still do - if you believe I am wrong in what I said, not in the morality of it, but in the likelihood of it, then say so - I am interested to see how that would be.

How's this, I believe that people that defend "traditional institutions" are allowed to push the limits of legality way beyond reasonable limits, as Suthep did many times, most notably in obstructing the February elections, while people who are perceived as being less protective of these institutions are dealt with unreasonably harshly, as Yingluck was when she was removed from office for re-assigning a cabinet minister that had been appointed by Abhisist.

Had institutions such as the military been committed to defending a democratic government, Suthep would have been kept on a much shorter leash and the February elections would have been successfully conducted. I know, the military, as per their 2007 constitution, is not subject to the rule of the elected government. I'm tempted to go further, but once again there are limits.

I don't disagree with you take on Suthep and his contempt for the election process in Feb - I was against this too by the way. The ends do not justify the means, and all that. I also will concede the potential of bias in "institutions" and agencies here (in both directions by the way - depending on which you chose - and other big problem, that being the separation of state etc - a question for another post though I believe). It does not address my postulation though that July was unlikely to seed a democratically elected government nor an end to hostilities - surely you see that (whether desired or not - reality is what it is).

I also realise, in other posts we have conversed in, that something can not be discussed here - but if it could, then it is not open and shut either. In some ways, it is unfortunate that a defence can not be mounted and belief is left to fester in such areas. However, enough said on that particular thin ice

PS: Nice to be able to discuss and debate without accusations and hyperbole often so apparent with some here (in either camp) - it's hard to be neutral over all, and wanting to debate specific events with a specific bias to said event, without automatically being labelled the enemy.

[MaxYakov]

The only real argument presented is #3, that "Democracy has costs lives".

If they mean the lives lost during the recent protests I would like the blame the police.

The recent protests lead by Suthep were ruled illegal by court, yet police never acted on stopping them,

They allowed the "peaceful" protesters to block government buildings and stuff. A real democratic protest should not enter buildings, block people from going to work. That is illegal, Why? Because if it would be allowed for anyone to "peacefully" stop the government offices from doing their jobs, it would mean that TINY MINORITY groups can disrupt the government anytime they want,, And that is not democracy, that is childish "I WANT I WANT I WANT"-behavior ..

Just because Suthep gathered some 50k or 100k people does not allow him to disrupt the government, He can make their voice heard by marching the streets without blocking stuff.

In real democracies around the world police would have protected the government buildings. But in Thailand a minority group was allowed to bring the country to such a state that the military finally had to come in.

Unless they start giving incentive for police to uphold the law, this will be repeated again. Someone at police HQ must be fired and giving punishment for not arresting protest leaders and dispersing illegal protests.

I hope the reforms done by military now put in place something that gives police accountability and incentives to act and do their jobs, instead of being lazy money grabbers that almost everyone hates.

This begs the question of why General Chan-ocha did not act to suppress the protestors if the police were derelict in their duties to protect the government and the election sites. Could he have acted with impunity in place of the police or was there an agenda? It appears to me that he has a good supply of "impunity" on hand now, at least.

It appears to me that General Chan-ocha has a real dilemma w/r to the election issue. If he's hand-picking senate members now what will he do when (or if) the elections bring in representatives that do not meet his personal standards? Will he try to control the set of candidates (rig the elections) or simply postpone the elections based on some fabricated scenarios in a similar vein as these three justifications for the coup?

[wolf5370]

The only real argument presented is #3, that "Democracy has costs lives".

If they mean the lives lost during the recent protests I would like the blame the police.

The recent protests lead by Suthep were ruled illegal by court, yet police never acted on stopping them,

They allowed the "peaceful" protesters to block government buildings and stuff. A real democratic protest should not enter buildings, block people from going to work. That is illegal, Why? Because if it would be allowed for anyone to "peacefully" stop the government offices from doing their jobs, it would mean that TINY MINORITY groups can disrupt the government anytime they want,, And that is not democracy, that is childish "I WANT I WANT I WANT"-behavior ..

Just because Suthep gathered some 50k or 100k people does not allow him to disrupt the government, He can make their voice heard by marching the streets without blocking stuff.

In real democracies around the world police would have protected the government buildings. But in Thailand a minority group was allowed to bring the country to such a state that the military finally had to come in.

Unless they start giving incentive for police to uphold the law, this will be repeated again. Someone at police HQ must be fired and giving punishment for not arresting protest leaders and dispersing illegal protests.

I hope the reforms done by military now put in place something that gives police accountability and incentives to act and do their jobs, instead of being lazy money grabbers that almost everyone hates.

This begs the question of why General Chan-ocha did not act to suppress the protestors if the police were derelict in their duties to protect the government and the election sites. Could he have acted with impunity in place of the police or was there an agenda? It appears to me that he has a good supply of "impunity" on hand now, at least.

It appears to me that General Chan-ocha has a real dilemma w/r to the election issue. If he's hand-picking senate members now what will he do when (or if) the elections bring in representatives that do not meet his personal standards? Will he try to control the set of candidates (rig the elections) or simply postpone the elections based on some fabricated scenarios in a similar vein as these three justifications for the coup?

Actually it is the EC that are to blame here - under the constitution the police can only assist at elections on the request of the EC - and it was not requested as far as was visible. The army would have been on even shakier ground I would think, if they intervened in elections. We should put blame where it belongs - and in this case it was neither the police not the army.

The General has planned everything quite well so far - you think he would leave the important stuff to chance?

[wolf5370]

The international community will never understand as long you are blocking BBC and CNN, plus some other ninternational channels. Forget the wish about understanding . Now US cut a little in the aid to the Thai armed forces, but next will be more severe actions. Open the TV for god/buddah sake.

This is interesting - how many Thais do they imagine would be watching BBC News 24 or CNN (where's that bloody plane now?) Most never get of the blooming soapies.

[noitom]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Only in Thailand can kleptocracy and oligarchy equal democracy.

How about adding ineptocracy to the list.

[AntiWinter]

1) Thailand has different situation and political environment to other countries. This is true. Thailand's corruption is too deep and thick from millions of corrupt police even in traffic boxes all the way up the ladder through Immigration continuing right up the to Government and Military. It is like a cesspool of corruption (the hub of corruption) and can NOT be controlled because the ones who are supposed to control it are the most corrupt of them all.

2) The military has clear evidences and reasons to seize power. The evidences and reasons will later be shown to the international community. Yes, they are all tired of being "pooled" into the military and earn next to nothing from young "Buddhist" children right up to the Generals. They make what, 8000 THB per month? Now they want THEIR slice of the pie. That is a good reason to "seize" power. What will be shown to the "International community" LATER will be a smoke screen. Any other reason to "seize" all Media stations?

3) Democratic ruling in Thailand has caused a lot of lives. Now this one I have no words for. I mean has anyone seen the Television series "Are you smarter then a fifth grader"? Well whoever released this statement sure isn't.

[MaxYakov]

The only real argument presented is #3, that "Democracy has costs lives".

If they mean the lives lost during the recent protests I would like the blame the police.

The recent protests lead by Suthep were ruled illegal by court, yet police never acted on stopping them,

They allowed the "peaceful" protesters to block government buildings and stuff. A real democratic protest should not enter buildings, block people from going to work. That is illegal, Why? Because if it would be allowed for anyone to "peacefully" stop the government offices from doing their jobs, it would mean that TINY MINORITY groups can disrupt the government anytime they want,, And that is not democracy, that is childish "I WANT I WANT I WANT"-behavior ..

Just because Suthep gathered some 50k or 100k people does not allow him to disrupt the government, He can make their voice heard by marching the streets without blocking stuff.

In real democracies around the world police would have protected the government buildings. But in Thailand a minority group was allowed to bring the country to such a state that the military finally had to come in.

Unless they start giving incentive for police to uphold the law, this will be repeated again. Someone at police HQ must be fired and giving punishment for not arresting protest leaders and dispersing illegal protests.

I hope the reforms done by military now put in place something that gives police accountability and incentives to act and do their jobs, instead of being lazy money grabbers that almost everyone hates.

This begs the question of why General Chan-ocha did not act to suppress the protestors if the police were derelict in their duties to protect the government and the election sites. Could he have acted with impunity in place of the police or was there an agenda? It appears to me that he has a good supply of "impunity" on hand now, at least.

It appears to me that General Chan-ocha has a real dilemma w/r to the election issue. If he's hand-picking senate members now what will he do when (or if) the elections bring in representatives that do not meet his personal standards? Will he try to control the set of candidates (rig the elections) or simply postpone the elections based on some fabricated scenarios in a similar vein as these three justifications for the coup?

Actually it is the EC that are to blame here - under the constitution the police can only assist at elections on the request of the EC - and it was not requested as far as was visible. The army would have been on even shakier ground I would think, if they intervened in elections. We should put blame where it belongs - and in this case it was neither the police not the army.

The General has planned everything quite well so far - you think he would leave the important stuff to chance?

The General would have been on shakier ground if he had intervened? And this much more radical action of the coup is not on shaky ground? Give us a break. Look at the lame and untenable reasons for it that they're trying to foist off. I say there are a few other plausible reasons such as timing problems, passive-aggression behavior and/or, hoping for violence from the election protests in order to justify a future coup. I tend to prefer the latter

You didn't comment on my hypothesis about his future election dilemma where he might want to retain power and/or keep the government corruption-free - if that is even remotely possible in Thailand.

As far as your view on his planning abilities go ... I'll let Robert Burns say it (again):

But Mousie, thou are no thy-lane,

In proving foresight may be vain:

The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men,

Gang aft agley,

An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,

For promis'd joy!

Edited May 25, 2014 by MaxYakov

[MaxYakov]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Only in Thailand can kleptocracy and oligarchy equal democracy.

How about adding ineptocracy to the list.

And corruptocracy.

Edited May 25, 2014 by MaxYakov

[Chris Lawrence]

Only in Thailand can kleptocracy and oligarchy equal democracy.

Great description and succinct

[Strangebrew]

Ok I see now says the blind man I think I would have said is as follows Thailand is rife with corruption , human traffiking, We have been a haven for crimminals, we want to purge this human waste and start fresh. By staging a coup and the military taking over we can try people easier suspend there rights make exiting and entring harder, Our country was being used as a crossroads for smuggling of animals ivory drugs. But due to ramoant corruption in our police force we had to take over. we have vendors on our streets openly selling pirated movies, music computer software fake brand named watches and clothes it is time to end this and join the world as equals. We need to mend our laws so all are treated equal.

[northernjohn]

As one might see from earlier posts, Prayuth has shot himself in the foot with this press release. To say words to the effect that "we have our reasons, but we're not telling you now." is tantamount to a red rag to a bull (if you'll excuse the analogous pun). The end result can only be to inflame and invigorate anyone against the coup, including redshirts, Joe Public and trolls. Now, I can accept that something might have been lost in translation, but it it is nevertheless more than unfortunate. He'll have to do better in future!

Nothing personal but see my post 16.

He is not a politician he is here to do the job the politicians should have done and doesn't have time to play politics. His hands are full. He apparently wrongly assumed that people already knew of the situation here in Thailand and the head strong will on all sides to demand their way even though nothing was working.

Ask the farmers if they think this is better than letting the PTP draw paychecks while they starved due to the money the government owed them.

That is action no talk. So you see there is some thing to be gained out of action instead of talk. Allow the man to work.

I'm not disagreeing with you... I was trying to say he needs to get his message across more clearly, or he'll upset more people.

Apparently I induldged in some inadvertent hypocrisy! Nest time maybe I will heed my own advice more

You make a good point that he needs to get his message out more clearly. The average Thai does not have the education to see the problem and the General does not have the time to explain it to them and hold their hand. It is a sad thing when foreign educated people have no more grasp of the problem than the Thais. Apparently Thailand is not the only country that needs a big boost in it's education system.

What is needed now is a person to handle all the public relations and let the new Prime Minister get on with doing his job. That is his strong point. Baby sitting is not even in his plan of action.

There are of course going to be protestors. He has cut off their supply of money from the corruption that was rampant. That is in no way to say he has or will be able to completely stop it. Corruption is a world wide event no matter how hard countries try to stop it. Their will always be the Shinawatra's to find away around it.

[chotthee]

You make a good point that he needs to get his message out more clearly. The average Thai does not have the education to see the problem and the General does not have the time to explain it to them and hold their hand. It is a sad thing when foreign educated people have no more grasp of the problem than the Thais. Apparently Thailand is not the only country that needs a big boost in it's education system.

What is needed now is a person to handle all the public relations and let the new Prime Minister get on with doing his job. That is his strong point. Baby sitting is not even in his plan of action.

There are of course going to be protestors. He has cut off their supply of money from the corruption that was rampant. That is in no way to say he has or will be able to completely stop it. Corruption is a world wide event no matter how hard countries try to stop it. Their will always be the Shinawatra's to find away around it.

The Minister of Education (until a few days ago), is not in running and hiding.

That tell a lot about the education here in Thailand, especially with the army in control.

I just hope that all Thai school here is forced to convert to military school, and all children spend half day learn and half day on army discipline training, march, polishing booth, say praise to army commander, arms practice, etc, so that the next generation will get their mind off corruption (which have been practiced to a wide degree by their parents).

[northernjohn]

A 90 year old democracy is not a new democracy! Nearly all the voters alive here grew up with democracy, they were born into it. What learning curve? The last 2 coups were not pushing up democracy, but stopping it falling out the window - this is no Uganda, this is not about the military grabbing power for a mad General to crown himself, it is a man of integrity that is fed up with the bickering and violence and abstinence of those who's job it is to negotiate and bridge divides!

The General's job is to protect the people, not the government; to the crown and the people his vows is given. He was forced to step in to stop an escalation to civil war and acts or guerrilla terrorism. He gave so many warnings for a long time - he pushed for talks and negotiation - he reigned in cessation and other such talk - he was ignored all the way. Enough is enough - and there has been enough violence and death in the last 7 months. Give him time - if he fails to do what he say, fails to push through valid reforms (and each can be debated at the time) and fails to step down after - then have protests and berate him, for now, there is no valid justification for doing so.

Well said.

The people have been raised with the idea that Democracy is just the fact that they can vote.

They have no idea of the importance in a Democracy of voting your own conscience. Many of them think it is just another way to make money and fall short in their part of participating in Democracy.

On the other hand we have the politicians who think Democracy is get into office any way you can buy votes, intimidate voters, buy the headmen, lie, make false promises and tinker with the ballot boxes. Just what ever you have to do so you can get into office and start stealing money from the electorate.

Along comes an honest man who does his best to put an end to this series of non government just rape the nation system. He does the best he can and puts an end to as many of the abusers as he can. He will sort them out and get rid of the bad ones imprison those who deserve it. Not give them a seat in the government.

He has a history of coups that failed in instilling an honest Democracy into the country to learn from. As has been shown he is a doer not a politician. He sees a job that needs doing and goes after it. He does not have the luxury of taking the time to explain all his moves to the people like a politician does. He has to really do it not just talk about it. Hopefully he will find a press secretary to hold the hand of the people who know nothing and have to be walked through it. A luxury he has no time for.

[dwcrist]

1) Thailand has different situation and political environment to other countries.
I agree. But everywhere is different, that does not justify dismantling democracy and people's rights when it serves you.

2) The military has clear evidences and reasons to seize power. The evidences and reasons will later be shown to the international community.

This is not a reason. Based on the line of thinking here, even if/when the evidence is given, the interpretation would also boil down to an excuse based on a self serving opinion.

3) Democratic ruling in Thailand has caused a lot of lives.
I hope they don't actually mean they're opposed to the creation of new life. Assuming they meant "cost" instead of "caused", undemocratic ruling and military intervention in Thailand has cost even more than democratic ruling.

Winthai said the foreign countries would be reminded of what has been happening in the country and reminded that the Thai military always supported the democratic ruling.
...when it served them. Otherwise they just took over.

He said those, who claimed their democratic rights, resorted to use war weapons and they attacked the communities in the capital.
So people claiming their democratic rights are the problem? People wouldn't be compelled to fight for their rights if they were granted and protected.

He said the expression of democratic rights in Thailand was different from those in foreign countries.

Oh ok, that clears everything up. Democracy means something completely different here. In Thai, the word "democracy" actually means dictatorship, at least to those who matter, aka the military and the elite. Such a silly misunderstanding, we forgive you, rest of the world.

Edited May 26, 2014 by dwcrist

[Baerboxer]

Yes I hope yingy does read me a bedtime story!

I like the fairy tales mostly.

Like the one where the thai military always supports democracy !

or the really good one in which the Shins are honest law abiding respecters of justice and democracy and don't crave power funded by corruption.

That's a cracker! It's the way she tells'em

[Sheryl]

Due to the volatile nature of the current situation political threads are being locked for the safety of our members and the forum