"Saving face"

[kaldoverde]

In my opinion the face issue comes from the way people are educated, either at home or in school. In Asian countries people are taught not to question and to always respect their elders.

This translates into entire societies of people that are not used to critical thinking and because they can't think critically no one criticizes, and because no one criticizes, no one can take criticism. Of course it's more complex than that as it is layered into social hierarchy, age, gender, race, etc, but overal that's how I interpret it.

Then again these are very closely knit societies and in Asian culture your success is usually determined by your ability to conform. In the West, success is determined by your ability to think critically.

I guess each has its negatives and positives and each works well in its own environment so my suggestion to you is: learn how to adapt.

[InTransit]

I guess i need to learn how to handle it.

Any suggestions?

Stay in your own country ?

Very original......

[Mudcrab]

Also the 'have to care for the parents,because they gave me life" regardless of wether they were good parents,after the act ,really annoys me,my wife's father treated her like shit,from what she tells me yet now he lives in our family compound[outside the house itself] and has been given a new motorbike,is waited on hand and foot,with no thank you i have ever heard,he looks at me like i am some alien from another planet,never rarely replies to my greetings,i would like to kick the old C#$@ up the backside,but of course i don't,but some days i get angry,and think what would these peasants do if i walk,of course it would make no difference,sometimes i hate them.

Marko, I think you are in the situation where you live in their family compound - whatever a family compound is!

[Runamile]

Seriously, the way to handle it is not notice in the first place. In China and, to a lesser extent, Thailand, people just don't notice. To some extent, that is cultivated, for example China during the Cultural Revolution. However, it's mostly just how it is, particularly at this point in time in the history of East and South-East Asia. People are habituated to not noticing. Poor eye-sight and zero peripheral vision help a lot!

[Mudcrab]

...was teaching Radar concepts to a group of fellow military technicians on deployment. There were Thai and Malaysian Air Force techs in the group.

You teach and you reinforce by querying their understanding.....

...alll I got from those (particular) troops were blank nods, and I knew not to direct questions TO THEM at this time

You were teaching not educating. Learn to ask open questions not closed questions. Force an answer, you were dealing with adults not children..

[kleelof]

Could you imagine some Thais on a forum in America, Australia or England talking about this concept of getting all bent out of shape because a bus is 10 minutes late or because nobody told you classes were cancelled and wondering how to understand and deal with it?

[Runamile]

@ Marko

It simply goes with the territory, if you marry a Thai. It's what you bought into.

If you don't find it acceptable (and I, assuredly don't) then you shouldn't have bought into the rest.

[Mudcrab]

But thais have such a big boiling point. You can scream at them and they will always smile back and be polite. But when you come in Thai only part of BKK, you better watch out, but havent experienced this anyways. The boiling point of Thais is really really high, so you can really really make them angry till they explode. I remember only one Thai was angry at me, fitness instructor in the BKK, where not many falangs were around. He said to take my clothes off in the jacuzzi and I did not want to . Then he wanted to boot me out of the fitness but I started to scream at him, so we exchanged some words. But nothing more....

But you have to be carefull if you get into altercation with Thai, another Thai or several of them might step in, I have heard such stories in safest place on earth Pattaya.

Good to read that you were not tempted to loose your virginity in the jacuzzi.

But can you imagine my blood boiling that he almost banned me from fitness in my hotel because I did not want to share jacuzzin naked with other fags there? WHo know if they weere fags or not, but still, and male, female section was separated!!!!!

If there would be chicks in jacuzzi I would be up for it. But I gave up, took my shorts off after that......

<deleted>

I did not want to share jacuzzin naked with other fags there?

Why? are you a shy fag?

[HerbalEd]

I saved my face on a photo a few years ago...

Still use it

Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Well, you just lost it.

[Gringogazzer]

Fortunately im british. We dont play the face game so much, but we do skirt around the flower garden a little. Just learn to be indirect or 'diplomatic' and voila, you understand 'face'. If you still dont understand, spend a month with copies of yes minister/prime minister and watch Sir Humphrey until you get the general gist.

im a brit too,

but im not sure i agree with this,

you live in a street, go buy a new car, i bet there would bo some down that street go and get a new car even if it skint them or on tick, just to show face, like we can afford one too,

i used to call it keeping up with the johnes,

ive seen it mant times, new conservetory,,, next door get one,,,

its all face

That's called jealousy and is a little different to face but jealousy is alive and veritably thriving in Thailand as well.

Face is rife in British people and the thought of losing status with those around you can and does lead to out of character behaviour and violence.

It's in my make up that if I haven't received what I asked for to take the responsibility on myself by "maybe I wasn't clear and didn't explain myself too well" taking the "face" issue on myself to start dealing with what I want.

People will not complain to someone's face to make them loose face, but the moment they are out of earshot bitch, whine and moan for days.

The funny thing is, if you do complain it is you who is loosing face for making an issue and a show for people.

[kleelof]

Face is rife in British people and the thought of losing status with those around you can and does lead to out of character behaviour and violence.

I can believe it. Thais are often passive-aggressive and quite often aggressive-aggressive(with a gun).

[abhaya]

In the East they call it Face in the West we call it Respect. The trick is when dealing with folks is not to paint them into a corner with no escape route unless of course you don't care about the outcome..

[HerbalEd]

Thanks for the posts all.

Im non the wiser really.

Just have to accept it as there way of avoiding conflict.

The white lies are not malicous just silly IMO.

Budhism allows a lie apparently if it means the party does not get hurt.

If we were all like this, having no backbone to tell things as they are, where would we be?!

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I too am sometimes frustrated by the face-saving thing and think it is way over done in Thailand. And yet, I think there's a valuable lesson there for most westerners. Westerners can often come off as rudely honest and too frank. As usual, the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

[JLCrab]

There are Thai person who, if they feel you have insulted them, will never speak to you again -- and in some cases I wish I had figured that out sooner.

[duanebigsby]

Thanks for the posts all.

Im non the wiser really.

Just have to accept it as there way of avoiding conflict.

The white lies are not malicous just silly IMO.

Budhism allows a lie apparently if it means the party does not get hurt.

If we were all like this, having no backbone to tell things as they are, where would we be?!

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Ever tell a girl she doesn't look fat in that dress? Ever tell your host the dinner was delicious?

Westerners have a version of saving face too.

doesn't explain why Asian people will always tell you about the pimple on your chin though. 5555

Edited June 4, 2014 by duanebigsby

[ggt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I guess i need to learn how to handle it.
Any suggestions?

Stay in your own country ?

Besides having to learn how to best handle "saving face"...there is something called "Thainess" which defies logic and reason...which you have just been exposed to by this post...

[ggt]

There will be many things which will frustrate the "newbie" in Thailand...best advice I can give...forget your country's norms...this is Thailand...either learn to go with the flow...or find a more suitable culture...elsewhere...precisely as I did...

[MonkeyLoo]

Another example.........

Intrrviewing for Thai staff the offer is made to the Thai and we agree everything including start date and time.

of the 5 staff given the job 2 send me s text saying they have changed there mind. 2 just dont show up.

Losing face? or simple courtesy?

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[hellohello123]

Thanks for the posts all.

Im non the wiser really.

Just have to accept it as there way of avoiding conflict.

The white lies are not malicous just silly IMO.

Budhism allows a lie apparently if it means the party does not get hurt.

If we were all like this, having no backbone to tell things as they are, where would we be?!

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Ever tell a girl she doesn't look fat in that dress? Ever tell your host the dinner was delicious?

Westerners have a version of saving face too.

doesn't explain why Asian people will always tell you about the pimple on your chin though. 5555

With respect, I've heard heaps of people use that example, it's not correct, and I think it's a convenient excuse of behaving badly

A lot of people say by lying about how good their cooking was, it saves their face!

No it doesn't

In the west you may lie about someone's cooking because you don't want to hurt their feelings

feelings, it has nothing to so with how you are going good lose/maintain/gain face

A lot.of.people will.say its about.minting face of.the chef in front of other people, so what happens if it's just you and the.chef eating dinner!?!?!!??

See how.face.is highly.hypocritical

In the western society which I'm not saying is perfect either, it's about being nice an snot hurting their feelings.

If it was all about face, when your five year old shows you a picture they have drawn, you'd have no.hesitation in saying "that's a terrible.picture, even for a five year old" it's about being considerate and not hurting their.feelings

Edited June 4, 2014 by hellohello123

[maderaroja]

I don't know why you find the concept so hard to understand

Thais are a lot more social than people in the West where one could live in a neighborhood for ten years and not know the people living four houses away

because they are more social their reputation (face) is a lot more important than people in the west.

In the west we have

"morals", principles, integrity, etc. (for the most part at least one hopes)

In East

There is face (Face is not just Thailand unique)

opposite sides of the same coin me thinks....

I disagree completely. I find that Thais, Burmese, Loatians lack morals, principles, integrity, honesty, fealty, affection and many more manners that were common in my "home" country.

[1FinickyOne]

A friend told me that there is an enormous volume of a book on lying - and how each society defines it differently as to what is acceptable. Here, most of what i have seen amongst generally decent people is that if it protects someone from getting hurt then it is ok - lying to help your family is also ok - - I have seen enough much more malicious lying in the West too and saving face… mostly in the realm of people not admitting that they were wrong or screwed-up. That is saving face and is done much with the same motivation of not wanting to be blamed…

[Acharn]

It's not clear to me what you're talking about. I sometimes see the, "It wan't me, it was the other guy." I think that's pretty universal, though. I've seen, "Well, of course, that's what I meant to say." I've seen the boss who just refuses to admit/believe he made a mistake. All of that's pretty normal where I come from (midwestern U.S.). I live among Thais, but I don't get around much any more. I don't see the kind of thing you describe -- or, really, don't describe. I remember baguely when I first came to Thailand I felt like I didn't understand anything, but I long ago reached the poont where it just seemed, well, this is the way people everywhere are. Maybe you should just figure, "Everybody has a reason for what they do, even if I don't know what the reason is."

[samran]

Another example.........

Intrrviewing for Thai staff the offer is made to the Thai and we agree everything including start date and time.

of the 5 staff given the job 2 send me s text saying they have changed there mind. 2 just dont show up.

Losing face? or simple courtesy?

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Called a better job off elsewhere....?

Perhaps they said yes to you as they didn't want say no.

[duanebigsby]

Thanks for the posts all.

Im non the wiser really.

Just have to accept it as there way of avoiding conflict.

The white lies are not malicous just silly IMO.

Budhism allows a lie apparently if it means the party does not get hurt.

If we were all like this, having no backbone to tell things as they are, where would we be?!

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Ever tell a girl she doesn't look fat in that dress? Ever tell your host the dinner was delicious?

Westerners have a version of saving face too.

doesn't explain why Asian people will always tell you about the pimple on your chin though. 5555

With respect, I've heard heaps of people use that example, it's not correct, and I think it's a convenient excuse of behaving badly

A lot of people say by lying about how good their cooking was, it saves their face!

No it doesn't

In the west you may lie about someone's cooking because you don't want to hurt their feelings

feelings, it has nothing to so with how you are going good lose/maintain/gain face

A lot.of.people will.say its about.minting face of.the chef in front of other people, so what happens if it's just you and the.chef eating dinner!?!?!!??

See how.face.is highly.hypocritical

In the western society which I'm not saying is perfect either, it's about being nice an snot hurting their feelings.

If it was all about face, when your five year old shows you a picture they have drawn, you'd have no.hesitation in saying "that's a terrible.picture, even for a five year old" it's about being considerate and not hurting their.feelings

"convenient excuse for behaving badly" Sorry that's not anywhere near my point. Not wanting to hurt someone's feelings is very close to face saving.

You don't tell a five year old it's a terrible picture in either culture. I'm not following your logic suggesting mine is out of touch.

[MoTheo]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

You'll never undestand it, so dont waste time and effort trying.

I think CharlieH...just give you the best advice in your life

[duanebigsby]

I don't know why you find the concept so hard to understand

Thais are a lot more social than people in the West where one could live in a neighborhood for ten years and not know the people living four houses away

because they are more social their reputation (face) is a lot more important than people in the west.

In the west we have

"morals", principles, integrity, etc. (for the most part at least one hopes)

In East

There is face (Face is not just Thailand unique)

opposite sides of the same coin me thinks....

I disagree completely. I find that Thais, Burmese, Loatians lack morals, principles, integrity, honesty, fealty, affection and many more manners that were common in my "home" country.

So basically they are subhuman, lowest scum of the earth, perhaps not much better than monkeys. What you've said is quite racist in its' implications.

[lucjoker]

i live here only 11 years,and i see it as :

the only thing a thai has is "face",rich or poor ,it is their highest good.

It is a free protection,a hiding mask, to anything that invades their personal life ,feelings ,knowledge....

Thais dont like to say "no" to others.example: dai=yes mai dai =not yes (meaning "no")

Thais dont admit their weaknesses ,they will hide it behind "face"

Make them loose face and you could loose your life !(ex:if you fancy a thai's girlfriend(wife) and he sees it ,he will not hesitate

to attack you.)

Also look out when you joke to them ,make sure they understand the joke .

Best is to be friendly ,smile ,dont corner them .

[MrJohnson]

The longer I live here (+17 yrs) the more I realize what I do not know. If I get to a point when I start to think I really comprehend, then I'll really be in trouble.

[benalibina]

Best way do the same with them and ignore when they lie. You know they lie that is good enough and you don't have to make sure they understood that.

Well...thats the crux aint it. Let the liars continue doing it and take you for a fool. Your example is ok in f.i.a restaurant but if people close who you want/need to trust for whatever reason are doing it, i guess confronting them with it is the best way. They did wrong by lying so for them to learn that it is not acceptable it needs to be made clear to them. But then they loose face. Ignore doing that and you loose accountability towards yourself.

Personally i dont care about my own face. I rather be confronted/critisized by others about my wrongs so i can become a better person of it. Thats IMO what is important in life.

[mok199]

its more about ''being right'',thais hate to be wrong esp with a forienger...in the thier bubble,thias invented the ''jet ski,the scooter, whiskey and the wheel'',they are jack of all trades and lord of none...but '''humour them''..they are so cute..its a daily thing here,like yesterday my suzuki caribian braks down on second road,just stops...i am on the side of the road,i pop the hood,and start checking..ok no spark ,must be fuel,i take off the fule line and smell and look and then i start to suck,and along comes the ''scooter taxi boys''they are going to help...my mouth is full of 95,and they are wiggling the battery cables,and saying''battery battery''....thanks boys ''but i have it under control''...anyhow it was the....''fuel pump realy''.....in thailand, you will never win,but if you smile and say yes dear'' you make break even.....

Edited June 4, 2014 by mok199