"Saving face"

Emster23 · June 4, 2014

Thais have morals, but order of importance is different than the west. Yes, they have "Thainess" but you also have "Westernness". As is typical across cultures, each assumes theirs is normal, natural and correct. Others are somehow inferior.

Westerners prefer honesty number one (to a point, however). Face is farther down the line. Thais think face and saying what they think others want to hear is more important (making them comfortable). One behavior to watch out for is "lying by omission", something Clinton would be proud of. Example: "I didn't sleep with him" (No, you had sex with him then went home to sleep).

ravip · June 4, 2014

I don't know why you find the concept so hard to understand

Thais are a lot more social than people in the West where one could live in a neighborhood for ten years and not know the people living four houses away

because they are more social their reputation (face) is a lot more important than people in the west.

In the west we have

"morals", principles, integrity, etc. (for the most part at least one hopes)

In East

There is face (Face is not just Thailand unique)

opposite sides of the same coin me thinks....

ravip · June 4, 2014

In the west we have

"morals", principles, integrity, etc. (for the most part at least one hopes)

The important statement is (for the most part at least one hopes)

We all know very well about those "morals" etc

Dap · June 4, 2014

Face = Pride ... simple (the world over).

Edited June 4, 2014 by Dap

hellohello123 · June 4, 2014

Best way do the same with them and ignore when they lie. You know they lie that is good enough and you don't have to make sure they understood that.

Well...thats the crux aint it. Let the liars continue doing it and take you for a fool. Your example is ok in f.i.a restaurant but if people close who you want/need to trust for whatever reason are doing it, i guess confronting them with it is the best way. They did wrong by lying so for them to learn that it is not acceptable it needs to be made clear to them. But then they loose face. Ignore doing that and you loose accountability towards yourself.

Personally i dont care about my own face. I rather be confronted/critisized by others about my wrongs so i can become a better person of it. Thats IMO what is important in life.

eeeexactly, give in to their bad behaviour and they will never learn and keep on doing it

so if its all about face, do school teachers not get upset at their students if they misbehave in case they lose face??? I doubt it

But maybe a teacher can't lose face no matter what happens

I was a witness to a recent incident, where the waitress said tonight all drinks are 2 for 1, we got the bill and it wasn't 2 for 1

We called the. Waitress over and she denied ever saying it

After us calmly telling her that there were 6 witnesses, all confirming this

She denies even talking to us once the whole night (her English was good btw)

After, one of the guys losing his temper, the manager comes along and joins in the argument, and starts talking about about us losing face, yet waiters had lot the most face for being caught out by 6 people

Said waitress is now hiding in the corner with a. menu covering her face

Absolutely ridiculous, if face wansnt involved, then waitress would have simply apologised, or gave even a remotely acceptable excuse such as a misundesrtading

A manager wouldn't have even been required, however, had the manage gotten involved, they could have sorted it out far easier!

techboy · June 4, 2014

I will not try to advance any theory or explanation as to why saving face is so important to Asians but it is a natural human trait to whish to do so. Notice that I said Asians. You say that you wish to understand, but come on! I mean like you apparently have not even figured out that this is not uniquely a Thai attribute in this part of the world and that it's core is in human nature.

benalibina · June 4, 2014

I will not try to advance any theory or explanation as to why saving face is so important to Asians but it is a natural human trait to whish to do so. Notice that I said Asians. You say that you wish to understand, but come on! I mean like you apparently have not even figured out that this is not uniquely a Thai attribute in this part of the world and that it's core is in human nature.

You correct but the issue is the reaction after somebody has lost face......keep denying....getting crazy....vindictive....or some introspection to improve oneself and become a better person out of it.....saying sorry is in many cases not the hardest word....

I Like Thai · June 4, 2014

Lose the need to be always right and lose the need to always have to show that you are right.

I've learnt not to bother with showing a person who uses face as a lame excuse for behaving like an idiot

But a lot of times its not about proving who is wrong or right, often it's about getting what you paid for or deserve

Eg go to a restaurant, ask the waitress if a particular dish is vegetarian, order it and it comes out with meat in it, if you tell the waitress she made a mistake, and she starts crapping on about face, then you need to get the correct dish!

Try to bear in mind, that the waitress probably has very limited English or your Thai is non existent or very limited also.

Her job is to take an order that's on the menu and deliver this order to the kitchen.

When the kitchen completes the order, she then delivers this to your table. That's it, end of story.

If you get an incorrect order, rather than blaming the waitress or the restaurant, try putting the onus on yourself.

It is your fault because you don't speak Thai well and it is your fault because you don't know what ingredients are in the dish you ordered.

As a previous poster said, smile, pay for your meal, eat what you like from it and leave the rest. Then you have the option of not returning and also not ordering this meal again at any restaurant.

Maybe it would be better if you utilised this forum to get a list of vegetarian meals, then you will be able to order in comfort and not blame others for your own short comings.

benalibina · June 4, 2014

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Lose the need to be always right and lose the need to always have to show that you are right.
I've learnt not to bother with showing a person who uses face as a lame excuse for behaving like an idiot
But a lot of times its not about proving who is wrong or right, often it's about getting what you paid for or deserve

Eg go to a restaurant, ask the waitress if a particular dish is vegetarian, order it and it comes out with meat in it, if you tell the waitress she made a mistake, and she starts crapping on about face, then you need to get the correct dish!

Try to bear in mind, that the waitress probably has very limited English or your Thai is non existent or very limited also.

Her job is to take an order that's on the menu and deliver this order to the kitchen.

When the kitchen completes the order, she then delivers this to your table. That's it, end of story.

If you get an incorrect order, rather than blaming the waitress or the restaurant, try putting the onus on yourself.

It is your fault because you don't speak Thai well and it is your fault because you don't know what ingredients are in the dish you ordered.

As a previous poster said, smile, pay for your meal, eat what you like from it and leave the rest. Then you have the option of not returning and also not ordering this meal again at any restaurant.

Maybe it would be better if you utilised this forum to get a list of vegetarian meals, then you will be able to order in comfort and not blame others for your own short comings.

You are a funny guy....turning it whole the way around.....i like you i like thai...its almost as funny as blaming the passenger when a taxidriver causes an accident......

BudRight · June 4, 2014

I guess i need to learn how to handle it.

Any suggestions?

Is that a toss pot in your pic?

Oh! Good advice! And while you're there, find some Thai people, kick the shit out of them, all why saying 'if you don't like it, go home!' That will teach people to travel! Why were they thinking anyway...

Edited June 4, 2014 by BudRight

tifino · June 4, 2014

I'm still waiting for a news 'flash' of mok99 losing his face in a fireball wow!!

Otis · June 4, 2014

Read the little TV Poster's witicisms at bottom of posts. One in particular jumps out for this question.

"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference."

I apologize to the author for not giving credit but, I searched and couldn't find a post. oc

Balance · June 4, 2014

I don't know why you find the concept so hard to understand

Thais are a lot more social than people in the West where one could live in a neighborhood for ten years and not know the people living four houses away

because they are more social their reputation (face) is a lot more important than people in the west.

It has very little to do with "reputation" as defined in western countries. Thais feel loss of face when it is just between two people and no one else is involved or would ever know anything about it. It has much more to do with perceived loss of control combined with a narcissistic attitude of all things revolving around them. It is a very personalized version of the "not invented here" attitude that you find in some American companies. It also seems to be generalized and projected into purely anonymous activities like driving.

GOLDBUGGY · June 4, 2014

With the Liars you described they both sound like my 2 X-wives and neither one of them were Thai.

To deal with "Saving Face" the first thing you have to deal with is yourself, which you know. Ask yourself, "How important is it to me to prove I am right?". "To prove he was wrong?". I would guess this is high on your personality list. But really, how important is that when you already know the answer? Is it worth arguing over? Is it worth fighting over? Is it worth getting upset about?

As long as you know the truth the rest doesn't matter. Sure! A friendly argument about Football with Friends over a few beers is fun. Thais do that to! But you wouldn't joke with a friend about his wife being unfaithful behind his back when he doesn't know, even if you do know the truth, just to prove you are right. Would You? Or even if he does know or suspects. Which is Saving Face!

Saving Face is supposed to be a 2-Way Street. Saves you the embarrassment of being wrong to. I guess it goes back to that old joke that "If you ask me no questions I will not tell you no lies." I don't have to deal with that much so not a big deal with me. But if I had a Thai Staff of say 25 or more, it would be quite different I am sure. So best I wait for there comments.

I am still breaking in My Thai Wife, and away from this, with some success.

GOLDBUGGY · June 4, 2014

But thais have such a big boiling point. You can scream at them and they will always smile back and be polite. But when you come in Thai only part of BKK, you better watch out, but havent experienced this anyways. The boiling point of Thais is really really high, so you can really really make them angry till they explode. I remember only one Thai was angry at me, fitness instructor in the BKK, where not many falangs were around. He said to take my clothes off in the jacuzzi and I did not want to . Then he wanted to boot me out of the fitness but I started to scream at him, so we exchanged some words. But nothing more....

But you have to be carefull if you get into altercation with Thai, another Thai or several of them might step in, I have heard such stories in safest place on earth Pattaya.

Good to read that you were not tempted to loose your virginity in the jacuzzi.

Or at least lose your Virginity in the Jacuzzi without a fight first.

GOLDBUGGY · June 4, 2014

One way of looking at it, to use very broad brushstrokes, is that western European societies enforce morality through guilt while east Asian societies enforce morality through shame. Guilt means that you feel bad for doing something wrong because it goes against your principles, values, and beliefs; shame is more about feeling bad over wrongdoing because others will think poorly of you. This very much ties into the notion of face. Western culture (however you might define that) was very much influenced by the Bible, with its Ten Commandments... principles/rules that everyone was expected to follow. Eastern societies were very much influenced by Confucianism, which placed more emphasis on one's network of social relations and obligations. [Of course, it's a little chicken-and-egg in terms of which way the influence actually went, and Buddhism was sometimes regarded as the 'enemy' of Confucianism because it disregarded relational obligations]. But there you have it... Rules versus relational obligations. Focus on principles versus focus on relationships. Different frameworks for defining right and wrong...

Interesting Theory!

sirchai · June 4, 2014

To answer your question with a question. Why do some countries need Metal Detectors At Their Schools?-

AfterLOS · June 4, 2014

I guess i need to learn how to handle it.

Any suggestions?

Stay in your own country ?

Stay in your own country?

LOL, its the same in at least the BULLY countries, USA and UK = worse than LOS. The only difference is that the

the first 2 lie about the big stuff ALL the time and smile and even when cotttt nobody goes to jail. Examples? Just

2 for starters, Iraq, The massive financial bailout in 2008 that screwed us all.

Compared to these FIRST RUNG liars, LOS is a sweetheart in the kindergarten level.

Furthermore those of you who still date American and UK women know quite well that these women make Thai

women look like saints in the LIES department.

GOLDBUGGY · June 4, 2014

I don't know why you find the concept so hard to understand

Thais are a lot more social than people in the West where one could live in a neighborhood for ten years and not know the people living four houses away

because they are more social their reputation (face) is a lot more important than people in the west.

It's the same in Thailand, in fact, I would say in Thailand you generally DON'T know your neighbors unless you happen to live in a rural part of the country and everyone living in your neighborhood have been living in the same place for decades, perhaps even generations. What I have stated is especially true in Bangkok. I have never seen very much interaction between my neighbors (I live in a moo baan btw) and Thais generally care about their family, friends and business partners/other people they have become acquainted with (in that order) rather than strangers, including neighbors they haven't been introduced to.

Therefore I don't think Thais are more social at all. On the contrary if anything. People in the west value their privacy, but so do Thais (in a different sort of way though - they will open up about certain things but not others). The main difference is Thais are open and social with their families and people they already know. They are much more comfortable living in multi-generational households than most westerners. But to suggest they are more likely to talk to neighbors etc. I have to completely disagree with. Either you are living out in the sticks, or your neighbors are exceptionally friendly or it's because you're a westerner.

Thai people I've been introduced to have always been quite friendly, even very friendly (in a way I would expect that) but as for neighbors really bonding and becoming family with each other, I strongly doubt that occurs much at all in Thailand. Most neighbors living in moo baans get along just fine, by not talking to each other unless necessary. They guard their belongings and privacy. That's what I've noticed.

I used to make similar assumptions to you when I first came to Thailand too, sirieneou, but after years spent living in various accommodation, vague smiles are about the most I can expect from neighbors.

Get a Thai Wife like Mine!

In a week she would have made many Thai Friends already, tell you who the good and bad ones are and why, where everyone works and which Thai Wives stay at home, which Farang gets drunk a lot and yells at his Thai Wife, who lived in your place before you, who's kids are who's, and even who's dog and cat they all belong to. I am not surprised to see her come home the first week we are their with some ones kid under her arm.

Never had a problem getting to know who lived near me and all their personal problems. I just have a problem trying to figure out what my Thai Wife said about me to get all this information?

benalibina · June 4, 2014

With the Liars you described they both sound like my 2 X-wives and neither one of them were Thai.

To deal with "Saving Face" the first thing you have to deal with is yourself, which you know. Ask yourself, "How important is it to me to prove I am right?". "To prove he was wrong?". I would guess this is high on your personality list. But really, how important is that when you already know the answer? Is it worth arguing over? Is it worth fighting over? Is it worth getting upset about?

As long as you know the truth the rest doesn't matter. Sure! A friendly argument about Football with Friends over a few beers is fun. Thais do that to! But you wouldn't joke with a friend about his wife being unfaithful behind his back when he doesn't know, even if you do know the truth, just to prove you are right. Would You? Or even if he does know or suspects. Which is Saving Face!

Saving Face is supposed to be a 2-Way Street. Saves you the embarrassment of being wrong to. I guess it goes back to that old joke that "If you ask me no questions I will not tell you no lies." I don't have to deal with that much so not a big deal with me. But if I had a Thai Staff of say 25 or more, it would be quite different I am sure. So best I wait for there comments.

I am still breaking in My Thai Wife, and away from this, with some success.

How important is it to prove that i am right ?

Depends on the issue and person. If somebody knows/should know, by normal acceptable behaviour, that one has done seriously wrong (i.e.hurt) consciously or subconsciously, and said person, upon confrontation, does not show any reciprocity by admitting their wrongdoing because of FACE, yes, then it is important to let him/her to understand their wrong. Moreover, if it is a close relationship it is vital to have mutual understanding and respect. Not adressing it can mean a loss of one's own dignity and respect.

GOLDBUGGY · June 4, 2014

Thanks for the posts all.
Im non the wiser really.
Just have to accept it as there way of avoiding conflict.
The white lies are not malicous just silly IMO.
Budhism allows a lie apparently if it means the party does not get hurt.
If we were all like this, having no backbone to tell things as they are, where would we be?!

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app
Ever tell a girl she doesn't look fat in that dress? Ever tell your host the dinner was delicious?

Westerners have a version of saving face too.

doesn't explain why Asian people will always tell you about the pimple on your chin though. 5555
With respect, I've heard heaps of people use that example, it's not correct, and I think it's a convenient excuse of behaving badly

A lot of people say by lying about how good their cooking was, it saves their face!

No it doesn't

In the west you may lie about someone's cooking because you don't want to hurt their feelings
feelings, it has nothing to so with how you are going good lose/maintain/gain face

A lot.of.people will.say its about.minting face of.the chef in front of other people, so what happens if it's just you and the.chef eating dinner!?!?!!??

See how.face.is highly.hypocritical
In the western society which I'm not saying is perfect either, it's about being nice an snot hurting their feelings.

If it was all about face, when your five year old shows you a picture they have drawn, you'd have no.hesitation in saying "that's a terrible.picture, even for a five year old" it's about being considerate and not hurting their.feelings

So then when you ask a Thai if you are Old, Fat, and Ugly, and they say:

You are not that Old!

You are not that Fat!

You are not Ugly!

You look good for your age!

You look younger than your age!

There are many more Farangs out their much younger than you and much fatter!

That they are only saying this to lie to you and they don't care about not hurting your feelings???

marko kok prong · June 4, 2014

Do sweating,hi so thai chinese teachers lose face when they soak the bed, lose face,com'n on whereustay,let us know.

silent · June 4, 2014

Thanks for the posts all.

Im non the wiser really.

Just have to accept it as there way of avoiding conflict.

The white lies are not malicous just silly IMO.

Budhism allows a lie apparently if it means the party does not get hurt.

If we were all like this, having no backbone to tell things as they are, where would we be?!

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I hope this helps. You need to learn to hide behind your shadow in front of people, toast the differences between vertebrates and invertebrates and pray for the strength to know what can and can't be changed in a hundred lifetimes, or die trying to make sense out of nonsense.

GOLDBUGGY · June 4, 2014

With the Liars you described they both sound like my 2 X-wives and neither one of them were Thai.

To deal with "Saving Face" the first thing you have to deal with is yourself, which you know. Ask yourself, "How important is it to me to prove I am right?". "To prove he was wrong?". I would guess this is high on your personality list. But really, how important is that when you already know the answer? Is it worth arguing over? Is it worth fighting over? Is it worth getting upset about?

As long as you know the truth the rest doesn't matter. Sure! A friendly argument about Football with Friends over a few beers is fun. Thais do that to! But you wouldn't joke with a friend about his wife being unfaithful behind his back when he doesn't know, even if you do know the truth, just to prove you are right. Would You? Or even if he does know or suspects. Which is Saving Face!

Saving Face is supposed to be a 2-Way Street. Saves you the embarrassment of being wrong to. I guess it goes back to that old joke that "If you ask me no questions I will not tell you no lies." I don't have to deal with that much so not a big deal with me. But if I had a Thai Staff of say 25 or more, it would be quite different I am sure. So best I wait for there comments.

I am still breaking in My Thai Wife, and away from this, with some success.

How important is it to prove that i am right ?

Depends on the issue and person. If somebody knows/should know, by normal acceptable behaviour, that one has done seriously wrong (i.e.hurt) consciously or subconsciously, and said person, upon confrontation, does not show any reciprocity by admitting their wrongdoing because of FACE, yes, then it is important to let him/her to understand their wrong. Moreover, if it is a close relationship it is vital to have mutual understanding and respect. Not adressing it can mean a loss of one's own dignity and respect.

You make very valid points and I agree. But haven't you ever come across someone who has hurt you badly but yet would never admit they did any wrong? That you argued the point until you were blue in the face and yet they still refuse to admit it? If not, then I gather you have never been divorced and had a wife cheating on you while you who were supporting her and away working to do that.

Adultery is a Sin in nearly every religion. Including Christian, Muslim, Buddhists, Hinduism, Judaism, and Confucianism and Hell knows what else I missed, and yet you will hear endless stories of people justifying this action. There is no justification for that! If you did it you broke this law and you are wrong! Yet you will seldom get anyone to fully admit that without some excuse.

But yes, I very much agree with you. It would be nice if they all did.

NowImEasy · June 4, 2014

But Thailand is the very best place to live in the whole world.

MonkeyLoo · June 4, 2014

But Thailand is the very best place to live in the whole world.

Thanks again for all the advice and ideas.

I love it here in Thailand. We just need to accept the saving face episodes, take a deep breath and try to have a laugh.

As you guys say, it aint going to change.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Stuart21 · June 4, 2014

Bit ridiculous when students are shit scared to ask questions of a teacher for fear of causing the teacher to lose face in case teach could not answer the question.

But best example of 'face saving' was the Chinese High Speed train crash - they BURIED IT within hours -

Then there is the painting out of logos on 'distressed' planes. As if -

I Like Thai · June 4, 2014

Read the little TV Poster's witicisms at bottom of posts. One in particular jumps out for this question.

"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference."

I apologize to the author for not giving credit but, I searched and couldn't find a post. oc

The Serenity Prayer is the common name for an originally untitled prayer authored by the American theologian Reinhold Niebuhr^[1]^[2] (1892–1971). It has been adopted byAlcoholics Anonymous and other twelve-step programs.

I Like Thai · June 4, 2014

With the Liars you described they both sound like my 2 X-wives and neither one of them were Thai.

To deal with "Saving Face" the first thing you have to deal with is yourself, which you know. Ask yourself, "How important is it to me to prove I am right?". "To prove he was wrong?". I would guess this is high on your personality list. But really, how important is that when you already know the answer? Is it worth arguing over? Is it worth fighting over? Is it worth getting upset about?

As long as you know the truth the rest doesn't matter. Sure! A friendly argument about Football with Friends over a few beers is fun. Thais do that to! But you wouldn't joke with a friend about his wife being unfaithful behind his back when he doesn't know, even if you do know the truth, just to prove you are right. Would You? Or even if he does know or suspects. Which is Saving Face!

Saving Face is supposed to be a 2-Way Street. Saves you the embarrassment of being wrong to. I guess it goes back to that old joke that "If you ask me no questions I will not tell you no lies." I don't have to deal with that much so not a big deal with me. But if I had a Thai Staff of say 25 or more, it would be quite different I am sure. So best I wait for there comments.

I am still breaking in My Thai Wife, and away from this, with some success.

How important is it to prove that i am right ?

Depends on the issue and person. If somebody knows/should know, by normal acceptable behaviour, that one has done seriously wrong (i.e.hurt) consciously or subconsciously, and said person, upon confrontation, does not show any reciprocity by admitting their wrongdoing because of FACE, yes, then it is important to let him/her to understand their wrong. Moreover, if it is a close relationship it is vital to have mutual understanding and respect. Not adressing it can mean a loss of one's own dignity and respect.

On the first bold point: From whose point of view are you looking at "normal acceptable behaviour" ? A Thai viewpoint or a Farang viewpoint ?

On the second bold point: That is where the dreaded silent treatment comes in

I Like Thai · June 4, 2014

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Thanks for the posts all.

Im non the wiser really.

Just have to accept it as there way of avoiding conflict.

The white lies are not malicous just silly IMO.

Budhism allows a lie apparently if it means the party does not get hurt.

If we were all like this, having no backbone to tell things as they are, where would we be?!

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Ever tell a girl she doesn't look fat in that dress? Ever tell your host the dinner was delicious?
Westerners have a version of saving face too.

doesn't explain why Asian people will always tell you about the pimple on your chin though. 5555

With respect, I've heard heaps of people use that example, it's not correct, and I think it's a convenient excuse of behaving badly
A lot of people say by lying about how good their cooking was, it saves their face!

No it doesn't

In the west you may lie about someone's cooking because you don't want to hurt their feelings

feelings, it has nothing to so with how you are going good lose/maintain/gain face

A lot.of.people will.say its about.minting face of.the chef in front of other people, so what happens if it's just you and the.chef eating dinner!?!?!!??

See how.face.is highly.hypocritical

In the western society which I'm not saying is perfect either, it's about being nice an snot hurting their feelings.

If it was all about face, when your five year old shows you a picture they have drawn, you'd have no.hesitation in saying "that's a terrible.picture, even for a five year old" it's about being considerate and not hurting their.feelings

So then when you ask a Thai if you are Old, Fat, and Ugly, and they say:

You are not that Old!

You are not that Fat!

You are not Ugly!

You look good for your age!

You look younger than your age!

There are many more Farangs out their much younger than you and much fatter!

That they are only saying this to lie to you and they don't care about not hurting your feelings???

Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies.

If you ask a question that a Thai would not rather answer, then it is OK to tell you a lie.

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