High speed train/dual track train project

[Mudcrab]

  On 6/4/2014 at 9:57 AM, wotamess said:

It takes >10 hours to get from Bangkok to Chiang Mai on the bus, the train is currently similar although you can lie down & sleep it off. If they built a high speed train, the journey could be reduced to two & a half hours.

It takes about an hour to get from Bangkok to Chiang Mai via aircraft, although you'll probably have to hang around in the airport for 2 hours before hand.

Bangkok property prices are currently three times that of Chiang Mai. Wages are typically 8:1 Bangkok:NE Thailand.

Bangkok is sinking into the ocean at the rate of something mental like 2" per year.

Implementation of high speed train will cause commuting, property prices in Bangkok will plummet, and it's viability as a capital city will vanish.

Who do you think owns all the property in Bangkok? Who do you think is blocking the project?

Lets get real here. Who is going to commute from Cm to BKK? Nobody. The movement of freight from CM to BKK will always be by truck in the near and foreseeable future. The whole scheme is/was a scam for someone to make a fortune from. The only big picture thing is the rapid movement of troops from China to where ever. Take a look on-line about the railway to Tibet from China. An absolute masterpiece of engineering - but why would anyone build a railway halfway across the world to Tibet. Sure as shit it ain't for tourists.

[wotamess]

  On 6/4/2014 at 10:20 AM, Mudcrab said:

  On 6/4/2014 at 9:57 AM, wotamess said:

It takes >10 hours to get from Bangkok to Chiang Mai on the bus, the train is currently similar although you can lie down & sleep it off. If they built a high speed train, the journey could be reduced to two & a half hours.

It takes about an hour to get from Bangkok to Chiang Mai via aircraft, although you'll probably have to hang around in the airport for 2 hours before hand.

Bangkok property prices are currently three times that of Chiang Mai. Wages are typically 8:1 Bangkok:NE Thailand.

Bangkok is sinking into the ocean at the rate of something mental like 2" per year.

Implementation of high speed train will cause commuting, property prices in Bangkok will plummet, and it's viability as a capital city will vanish.

Who do you think owns all the property in Bangkok? Who do you think is blocking the project?

Lets get real here. Who is going to commute from Cm to BKK? Nobody. The movement of freight from CM to BKK will always be by truck in the near and foreseeable future. The whole scheme is/was a scam for someone to make a fortune from. The only big picture thing is the rapid movement of troops from China to where ever. Take a look on-line about the railway to Tibet from China. An absolute masterpiece of engineering - but why would anyone build a railway halfway across the world to Tibet. Sure as shit it ain't for tourists.

Take your point about Chinese troops, but have to disagree about commuting. People in the UK are already doing >3Hr daily commutes, it's not that uncommon. People over here (Thailand) are already doing weekly commutes (small flat in BK, family home in Chiang Mai), but I'm not just talking about Chiang Mai - consider all the other regions that would be opened up.

[wotamess]

  On 6/4/2014 at 10:20 AM, Mudcrab said:

  On 6/4/2014 at 9:57 AM, wotamess said:

It takes >10 hours to get from Bangkok to Chiang Mai on the bus, the train is currently similar although you can lie down & sleep it off. If they built a high speed train, the journey could be reduced to two & a half hours.

It takes about an hour to get from Bangkok to Chiang Mai via aircraft, although you'll probably have to hang around in the airport for 2 hours before hand.

Bangkok property prices are currently three times that of Chiang Mai. Wages are typically 8:1 Bangkok:NE Thailand.

Bangkok is sinking into the ocean at the rate of something mental like 2" per year.

Implementation of high speed train will cause commuting, property prices in Bangkok will plummet, and it's viability as a capital city will vanish.

Who do you think owns all the property in Bangkok? Who do you think is blocking the project?

Lets get real here. Who is going to commute from Cm to BKK? Nobody. The movement of freight from CM to BKK will always be by truck in the near and foreseeable future. The whole scheme is/was a scam for someone to make a fortune from. The only big picture thing is the rapid movement of troops from China to where ever. Take a look on-line about the railway to Tibet from China. An absolute masterpiece of engineering - but why would anyone build a railway halfway across the world to Tibet. Sure as shit it ain't for tourists.

Musing over my Chang here, so forgive me if I appear somewhat naive; but thinking about troop movements - really? Surely a single hit from a smart-bomb, or a drone attack would immediately scupper the idea? It's a little like a "dalek" invasion - ok in theory until you get to some steps...

[movsrus]

The high speed train is a boondoggle and will provide the average Thai with no benefit. The cost of a ticket will be out of the price range many Thais can afford and the amount of money that will fall off the table during the construction of the railway will make the graft and corruption of the rice pledging scheme pale in comparison.

[peterquixote]

  On 6/4/2014 at 8:16 AM, yimlitnoy said:

A megalomaniac project conceived to please the Chinese, as said before for the 30% for Thaksin, cronies and the assurance for the former Phua Thai party to stay in power for 100 years with the out of budget money.

[David48]

Actually, on a completely different note, I'd like to welcome back bluesofa, the OP.

He's one of the original members of the Forum here.

[bluesofa]

  On 6/4/2014 at 1:28 PM, David48 said:

Actually, on a completely different note, I'd like to welcome back bluesofa, the OP.

He's one of the original members of the Forum here.

Thank you for that David48!

My original post was a straight-forward question about the proposal and how it was envisaged the tracks would run. However the conversation seems to have gone off at a bit of a tangent, but ne'er mind, eh!

Still interesting.

I was hoping there might be a decent railway system that could work. Most replies here seem to think a lot of the budget will be syphoned off elsewhere - never seen that before...

[kieran2698]

  On 6/4/2014 at 10:20 AM, Mudcrab said:

  On 6/4/2014 at 9:57 AM, wotamess said:

It takes >10 hours to get from Bangkok to Chiang Mai on the bus, the train is currently similar although you can lie down & sleep it off. If they built a high speed train, the journey could be reduced to two & a half hours.

It takes about an hour to get from Bangkok to Chiang Mai via aircraft, although you'll probably have to hang around in the airport for 2 hours before hand.

Bangkok property prices are currently three times that of Chiang Mai. Wages are typically 8:1 Bangkok:NE Thailand.

Bangkok is sinking into the ocean at the rate of something mental like 2" per year.

Implementation of high speed train will cause commuting, property prices in Bangkok will plummet, and it's viability as a capital city will vanish.

Who do you think owns all the property in Bangkok? Who do you think is blocking the project?

Lets get real here. Who is going to commute from Cm to BKK? Nobody. The movement of freight from CM to BKK will always be by truck in the near and foreseeable future. The whole scheme is/was a scam for someone to make a fortune from. The only big picture thing is the rapid movement of troops from China to where ever. Take a look on-line about the railway to Tibet from China. An absolute masterpiece of engineering - but why would anyone build a railway halfway across the world to Tibet. Sure as shit it ain't for tourists.

No it wasn't for tourists. It was to develop a country that had been trapped in medieval slavery by a religious dictator who claimed to be the reincarnation of Buddha and who had anyone who spoke against him boiled alive. I think the feeling that China has on the matter is that the more links to the rest of China and the more diverse the demographics, the less likely it will fall back into the hands of a religious dictator.

I suppose you have been listening to those aristocrats in exile?

[David48]

  On 6/4/2014 at 1:58 PM, bluesofa said:

  On 6/4/2014 at 1:28 PM, David48 said:

Actually, on a completely different note, I'd like to welcome back bluesofa, the OP.

He's one of the original members of the Forum here.

Thank you for that David48!

My original post was a straight-forward question about the proposal and how it was envisaged the tracks would run. However the conversation seems to have gone off at a bit of a tangent, but ne'er mind, eh!

Still interesting.

I was hoping there might be a decent railway system that could work. Most replies here seem to think a lot of the budget will be syphoned off elsewhere - never seen that before...

Welcome mate ...

Have a search of the member Lakegeneve.

He's hot on all the metro stuff, has a few threads running.

Maybe a PM might reveal a bit more info for you.

[Lakegeneve]

Cheers David but I'm usually cool on a metro as long as the aircon is working...

For the OP, I'll just link a bunch of threads which should have sufficient info to answer your queries along with some other info that you may be interested in (as with this one much dribble to ignore as well...),

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/654977-state-railway-of-thailand-bidding-for-dual-tracking-project-soon/page-2, post #33 onwards and links to other previous threads

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/556919-bangkok-chiang-mai-high-speed-rail-ready-by-2018-transport-ministry/page-10#entry5495113

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/650637-srt-kicks-off-bangkok-rayong-high-speed-train-study/#entry6579649

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/697746-fast-train-bkk-pattaya-how-much-can-you-pay-maximum-to-use-it/page-2#entry7357416

[Greg Nixon]

I believe China may want a rail link between Kunming and Bangkok. China has the greatest length of high speed rail in the world, it is quite likely that this link could be high speed. If the Chinese are partners in this rail link, they could build and operate it efficiently.

[khunPer]

  On 6/3/2014 at 1:52 AM, harrry said:

The dual track project is one to upgrade the present lines to double track and make it a little stronger and possibly enable the trains to go a little faster than the speed they can now which is an average of about 30 mph. It has been an ongoing project.

The high speed rail is a totally seperate project. There have been several different proposals but all involve completely seperate rail lines probably elevated.

"...about 30mph." The rails are not in the best condition and need a lot of maintenance – furthermore I read that Thailand use so-called “meter gauge”, which is more narrow than the US and European standard gauge (1.435m). I’m not an expert, but presume the narrow gauge also limits the speed…

(Please correct me, if I'm wrong.)

[harrry]

  On 6/4/2014 at 8:27 PM, khunPer said:

  On 6/3/2014 at 1:52 AM, harrry said:

The dual track project is one to upgrade the present lines to double track and make it a little stronger and possibly enable the trains to go a little faster than the speed they can now which is an average of about 30 mph. It has been an ongoing project.

The high speed rail is a totally seperate project. There have been several different proposals but all involve completely seperate rail lines probably elevated.

"...about 30mph." The rails are not in the best condition and need a lot of maintenance – furthermore I read that Thailand use so-called “meter gauge”, which is more narrow than the US and European standard gauge (1.435m). I’m not an expert, but presume the narrow gauge also limits the speed…

(Please correct me, if I'm wrong.)

from WIlipaedia. This is the tilt train used in Queensland,

Diesel Tilt Train in April 2008 In service 1997 to Present (electric)

2003 to Present (diesel) Manufacturer Walkers (electric)

EDi Rail (diesel) Built at Maryborough Constructed 1997

2003 Number built 2 (electric)

2 (diesel) Number in service 2 (electric)

2 (diesel) Formation 6 cars (electric)

2 power + 7 cars (diesel) Operator Queensland Rail Depot(s) Mayne Line(s) served North Coast Specifications Maximum speed 160 km/h (99 mph) Power supply Overhead lines or

Push-pull diesel locomotive Track gauge 1,067 mm (3 ft 6 in)

[harrry]

  On 6/5/2014 at 12:42 AM, harrry said:

  On 6/4/2014 at 8:27 PM, khunPer said:

  On 6/3/2014 at 1:52 AM, harrry said:

The dual track project is one to upgrade the present lines to double track and make it a little stronger and possibly enable the trains to go a little faster than the speed they can now which is an average of about 30 mph. It has been an ongoing project.

The high speed rail is a totally seperate project. There have been several different proposals but all involve completely seperate rail lines probably elevated.

"...about 30mph." The rails are not in the best condition and need a lot of maintenance – furthermore I read that Thailand use so-called “meter gauge”, which is more narrow than the US and European standard gauge (1.435m). I’m not an expert, but presume the narrow gauge also limits the speed…

(Please correct me, if I'm wrong.)

from Wikipaedia. This is the tilt train used in Queensland,

Diesel Tilt Train in April 2008 In service 1997 to Present (electric)

2003 to Present (diesel) Manufacturer Walkers (electric)

EDi Rail (diesel) Built at Maryborough Constructed 1997

2003 Number built 2 (electric)

2 (diesel) Number in service 2 (electric)

2 (diesel) Formation 6 cars (electric)

2 power + 7 cars (diesel) Operator Queensland Rail Depot(s) Mayne Line(s) served North Coast Specifications Maximum speed 160 km/h (99 mph) Power supply Overhead lines or

Push-pull diesel locomotive Track gauge 1,067 mm (3 ft 6 in)

also a more normal train the Western Australian suburban service which is 3 foot 6 inches.

The B-series trains were first introduced into service in 2004.

A B-series train consists of three connected carriages which can be coupled as three or six-car sets.

31 three-car B-series trains were introduced to the Transperth fleet as part of the New MetroRail project between 2004 and 2006. An additional 15 trains are currently being progressively commissioned for service.

The top speed of the B-series is 130kmh.

[StreetCowboy]

  On 6/4/2014 at 2:43 PM, David48 said:

  On 6/4/2014 at 1:58 PM, bluesofa said:

  On 6/4/2014 at 1:28 PM, David48 said:

Actually, on a completely different note, I'd like to welcome back bluesofa, the OP.

He's one of the original members of the Forum here.

Thank you for that David48!

My original post was a straight-forward question about the proposal and how it was envisaged the tracks would run. However the conversation seems to have gone off at a bit of a tangent, but ne'er mind, eh!

Still interesting.

I was hoping there might be a decent railway system that could work. Most replies here seem to think a lot of the budget will be syphoned off elsewhere - never seen that before...

Welcome mate ...

Have a search of the member Lakegeneve.

He's hot on all the metro stuff, has a few threads running.

Maybe a PM might reveal a bit more info for you.

The "high speed lines" and the "double tracking" are two quite different projects.

The first is a very ambitious, high profile project which personally I think would be a waste of resource in Thailand at this time, and beyond the government's ability to deliver in the near future. Such a line would be appropriate where you have two large urban centres 250 - 600 km apart, with a couple of smaller centres in need of development in between - Kiaohsiung - Taipei, San Francisco - Los Angeles, Singapore - Kuala Lumpur... with an existing demand.

The double tracking will increase freight capacity, improve reliability, improve journey times for freight and passengers and improve safety, and it;s an incremental project using existing technology which is already ongoing, I believe.

SC

[socksy01]

Bring on the derailments and multiple casualties.

[sandyf]

  On 6/5/2014 at 1:24 AM, StreetCowboy said:

  On 6/4/2014 at 2:43 PM, David48 said:

  On 6/4/2014 at 1:58 PM, bluesofa said:

  On 6/4/2014 at 1:28 PM, David48 said:

Actually, on a completely different note, I'd like to welcome back bluesofa, the OP.

He's one of the original members of the Forum here.

Thank you for that David48!

My original post was a straight-forward question about the proposal and how it was envisaged the tracks would run. However the conversation seems to have gone off at a bit of a tangent, but ne'er mind, eh!

Still interesting.

I was hoping there might be a decent railway system that could work. Most replies here seem to think a lot of the budget will be syphoned off elsewhere - never seen that before...

Welcome mate ...

Have a search of the member Lakegeneve.

He's hot on all the metro stuff, has a few threads running.

Maybe a PM might reveal a bit more info for you.

The "high speed lines" and the "double tracking" are two quite different projects.

The first is a very ambitious, high profile project which personally I think would be a waste of resource in Thailand at this time, and beyond the government's ability to deliver in the near future. Such a line would be appropriate where you have two large urban centres 250 - 600 km apart, with a couple of smaller centres in need of development in between - Kiaohsiung - Taipei, San Francisco - Los Angeles, Singapore - Kuala Lumpur... with an existing demand.

The double tracking will increase freight capacity, improve reliability, improve journey times for freight and passengers and improve safety, and it;s an incremental project using existing technology which is already ongoing, I believe.

SC

Agreed. My house is about 2 hundred yards from the Bangkok to Rayong line. It used to be single track and a couple of years ago they started laying a second track. At the time reports indicated that this was to facilitate freight from Rayong to the new industrial estate in Burma. It was also hoped to improve passenger services. I do not know how much they have completed but I know it is now twin track between Chonburi and Pattaya.

I have been to China and seen the high speed trains, they use seamless rail. I have also seen the rail yards, they are about 5 miles from one side to the other. The track appears to pass to pass through two sheds, I suspect the first is welding and the second is NDT. The rail is conveyed through and on to bogies, seemed to be about 1 Km lengths. The yard feeds straight on to the rail network.

The track on the Bangkok Rayong line is not seamless so it is very unlikely it will ever be used for high speed trains.

[bluesofa]

  On 6/4/2014 at 5:09 PM, Lakegeneve said:

Cheers David but I'm usually cool on a metro as long as the aircon is working...

For the OP, I'll just link a bunch of threads which should have sufficient info to answer your queries along with some other info that you may be interested in (as with this one much dribble to ignore as well...),

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/654977-state-railway-of-thailand-bidding-for-dual-tracking-project-soon/page-2, post #33 onwards and links to other previous threads

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/556919-bangkok-chiang-mai-high-speed-rail-ready-by-2018-transport-ministry/page-10#entry5495113

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/650637-srt-kicks-off-bangkok-rayong-high-speed-train-study/#entry6579649

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/697746-fast-train-bkk-pattaya-how-much-can-you-pay-maximum-to-use-it/page-2#entry7357416

Thank you very much for taking the time to post all those links.

I really do hope the SRT manages to pull itself into the 21st century and get it's house in order. Sure, it seems to have been woefully under-funded for decades now.

I have no professional interest in any of the railway project.

When I sometimes use public transport, I do enjoy railway travel more than the bus. The only part of the Thai rail network I haven't used is the Ubon section.

The train is a so much more relaxed way to travel and (assuming it's not the overnight train), you get to see a lot more of the countryside - not to mention it's easy to sit and have a few beers on the train.

Thanks again Lakegeneve for your effort.

[Lakegeneve]

  On 6/5/2014 at 3:05 AM, sandyf said:

  On 6/5/2014 at 1:24 AM, StreetCowboy said:

The "high speed lines" and the "double tracking" are two quite different projects.

The first is a very ambitious, high profile project which personally I think would be a waste of resource in Thailand at this time, and beyond the government's ability to deliver in the near future. Such a line would be appropriate where you have two large urban centres 250 - 600 km apart, with a couple of smaller centres in need of development in between - Kiaohsiung - Taipei, San Francisco - Los Angeles, Singapore - Kuala Lumpur... with an existing demand.

The double tracking will increase freight capacity, improve reliability, improve journey times for freight and passengers and improve safety, and it;s an incremental project using existing technology which is already ongoing, I believe.

SC

Agreed. My house is about 2 hundred yards from the Bangkok to Rayong line. It used to be single track and a couple of years ago they started laying a second track. At the time reports indicated that this was to facilitate freight from Rayong to the new industrial estate in Burma. It was also hoped to improve passenger services. I do not know how much they have completed but I know it is now twin track between Chonburi and Pattaya.

I have been to China and seen the high speed trains, they use seamless rail. I have also seen the rail yards, they are about 5 miles from one side to the other. The track appears to pass to pass through two sheds, I suspect the first is welding and the second is NDT. The rail is conveyed through and on to bogies, seemed to be about 1 Km lengths. The yard feeds straight on to the rail network.

The track on the Bangkok Rayong line is not seamless so it is very unlikely it will ever be used for high speed trains.

The double tracking of this line was prioritised due to the Laem Chabang port and freight, nothing to do with passenger services. It will eventually allow max 120km operations.

NO current lines will be used for HSR trains, if you read SC's post or the links to other threads posted above, that should have been very clear. All HSR lines will be completely new lines separate from the rest of the network. This is exactly the same as in China.

Take the time to read the two threads linked specifically about the Rayong HSR line.......