ISIS: The first terror group to build an Islamic State?

[Steely Dan]

there's a pattern here:

>>> atrocities occur

>>> there's a resounding outcry for US response (what other country has the might?)

>>> US military responds

>>> time goes by

>>> more time goes by

>>> there are demonstrations against the US, for being self-appointed policeman of the world.

>>> public outcry of over-stepping by some US forces. One or more isolated stories of excesses.

>>> the same people who were campaigning for US intervention weeks earlier, are now demonstrating for US withdrawal.

>>> The US reputation as a 'war monger' nation is reinforced.

addendum: Uncle Sam is: "damned if he does, damned if he don't."

But this is 100% the mess created by Bush et al. You make a mess, you clean it up!

We have already covered the mistakes surrounding U.S foreign policy, going in without an exit plan, however Europe is just as culpable, allowing mass immigration from hotbeds of totalitarian ideology coupled with a complete failure to stop said ideology spreading within Europe, fast forward to today with thousands of ISIS recruits holding European passports.

So before we simplistically blame it on Bush lets remember there were two head lopping, stone throwing, slave taking utterly evil Caliphates before Christopher Columbus even set sail. We now have the makings of a third Caliphate brought about mainly due to the West refusing to fight it with as much (necessary) zeal as it fights us with. The horrific actions of ISIS are indeed goading the world to fight them, and that is exactly what needs to happen, too bad they have a potential recruitment base of millions already living within.

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[Credo]

But it is so much more fun to blame "Bush et al" because before he showed up on the scene it was the land of milk and honey and everyone held hands and sang Kumbaya.

[Steely Dan]

This was all going to happen one day.

As Churchill once said as he held the Quran aloft there will never be peace in the world as long as this acursed book exists.

Just let all Muslim hell holes destroy themselves and each other. And close the borders to those countries.

Actually it was Gladstone.

As an aside you have to be careful quoting Winston Churchill in modern culturally enriched Britain, you can get arrested for it.

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[Ulysses G.]

I love Winston Churchill quotes, especially the ones that he did not actually say.

"Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains."

Edited August 10, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[GentlemanJim]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

there's a pattern here:

>>> atrocities occur
>>> there's a resounding outcry for US response (what other country has the might?)
>>> US military responds
>>> time goes by
>>> more time goes by
>>> there are demonstrations against the US, for being self-appointed policeman of the world.
>>> public outcry of over-stepping by some US forces. One or more isolated stories of excesses.
>>> the same people who were campaigning for US intervention weeks earlier, are now demonstrating for US withdrawal.
>>> The US reputation as a 'war monger' nation is reinforced.

addendum: Uncle Sam is: "damned if he does, damned if he don't."

But this is 100% the mess created by Bush et al. You make a mess, you clean it up!

ISIS is a spin-off from the Syrian civil war.

But, blame Bush if it makes you feel better.

The Syrian war is a spin off from Iraq, ISIS are a spin off from Iraq, who has funded the 'rebels' in Syria? Who has by default armed and financed ISIS? My reply was to the line "Uncle Sam is: "damned if he does, damned if he don't.""

But it is so much more fun to blame "Bush et al" because before he showed up on the scene it was the land of milk and honey and everyone held hands and sang Kumbaya.

As I said Bush et al I am not sure it was the land of milk and honey, but would you like to do a head count of how many families are now missing loved ones since the start of the war in Iraq till now and the 12 years previous to the start of the war. I think post war till now could be quite a few more - and there were no WMD's.

You all seem quite blase' even flippant about the deaths of so many innocent people. I guess it's all ok as long as it's not in your back yard.

[Deacon Bell]

News reports of them burying women and children alive today as they executed 500.

Nasty bunch of

I'm not one for war and military force being used, especially US led war and military force, but these pieces of human trash need sorting out.

[metisdead]

A nonsense post has been removed

[chuckd]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

there's a pattern here:

>>> atrocities occur

>>> there's a resounding outcry for US response (what other country has the might?)

>>> US military responds

>>> time goes by

>>> more time goes by

>>> there are demonstrations against the US, for being self-appointed policeman of the world.

>>> public outcry of over-stepping by some US forces. One or more isolated stories of excesses.

>>> the same people who were campaigning for US intervention weeks earlier, are now demonstrating for US withdrawal.

>>> The US reputation as a 'war monger' nation is reinforced.

addendum: Uncle Sam is: "damned if he does, damned if he don't."

But this is 100% the mess created by Bush et al. You make a mess, you clean it up!

ISIS is a spin-off from the Syrian civil war.

But, blame Bush if it makes you feel better.

The Syrian war is a spin off from Iraq, ISIS are a spin off from Iraq, who has funded the 'rebels' in Syria? Who has by default armed and financed ISIS? My reply was to the line "Uncle Sam is: "damned if he does, damned if he don't.""

But it is so much more fun to blame "Bush et al" because before he showed up on the scene it was the land of milk and honey and everyone held hands and sang Kumbaya.

As I said Bush et al I am not sure it was the land of milk and honey, but would you like to do a head count of how many families are now missing loved ones since the start of the war in Iraq till now and the 12 years previous to the start of the war. I think post war till now could be quite a few more - and there were no WMD's.

You all seem quite blase' even flippant about the deaths of so many innocent people. I guess it's all ok as long as it's not in your back yard.

You claim:

"The Syrian war is a spin off from Iraq, ISIS are a spin off from Iraq, who has funded the 'rebels' in Syria? Who has by default armed and financed ISIS? My reply was to the line "Uncle Sam is: "damned if he does, damned if he don't.""

Just for the record, the Syrian civil war is a spin off from the Arab Spring. Remember that?

ISIS is a spin off from Al Qaeda in the Syrian civil war.

Qatar, Saudi Arabia and other Arab states fund the Syrian rebels. Obama has been foot dragging on this.

If you consider that the confiscation of military hardware the US left for the Iraqi Army as arming ISIS by default, then you might be guilty of taking history to new depths of the truth. Hardly a problem created by the US, now, is it.

ISIS had a history in Syria of kidnapping for ransom, captured producing oil fields in Syria and selling the oil and robbing a bank in Mosul, as I recall, of something like half a billion US dollars. I can't see any US involvement in all that.

Now I must admit you made a decent post on this thread earlier.

You suggested readers look up the atrocities being committed by ISIS to become fully informed on what animals they really are. I took that advice and now am much more aware of what these creatures are capable of.

For once, I nearly agree with what Obama has done. But he doesn't go far enough. He has claimed the mission of the US is to protect US citizens and assets and to relieve the suffering of the civilian population.

In my opinion, he should unleash the drones, FA-18s and Diego Garcia's B-52s for a few bombing runs. Drop MOABs here and there to get their attention. Take the war to the savages.

[GentlemanJim]

You suggested readers look up the atrocities being committed by ISIS to become fully informed on what animals they really are. I took that advice and now am much more aware of what these creatures are capable of.

For once, I nearly agree with what Obama has done. But he doesn't go far enough. He has claimed the mission of the US is to protect US citizens and assets and to relieve the suffering of the civilian population.

In my opinion, he should unleash the drones, FA-18s and Diego Garcia's B-52s for a few bombing runs. Drop MOABs here and there to get their attention. Take the war to the savages.

Well chukd, I am sure will forgive me, I have cut out a bit as almost everything we are arguing about here is irrelevant isn't it? What really matters is your last few lines and this:

The video and photo evidence on the internet is just too much. These bastards need stopping, whatever the cost. So if anybody wants to drop a gazillion tons of bombs onto anyone, please feel free to drop them on these ISIS animals....and be quick about it.

[MJP]

Throw everything at ISIS and don't stop. Even a few buckets of sunshine if needs be.

[Steely Dan]

Throw everything at ISIS and don't stop. Even a few buckets of sunshine if needs be.

I read that ISIS are using 150 Yasidi families as human shields, I wonder where they learned that trick from? I do hope we can bomb them back into the Stone Age with precision strikes or the press and protest marchers in Western cities will have a field day.

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[Credo]

I have been around when air strikes were called in. It's difficult to know who are the targets and who is going to end up as collateral damage. That was in the days before drones were prevalent.

It will require boots on the ground, I don't know whose boots, but it will require boots. I would suggest arming the Kurds and letting them take care of them. Of course, the Baghdad gov't won't like that and neither will Turkey or Iran because it may foreshadow an independent Kurdistan.

I will be thinking carefully about this. I didn't think it was possible for Gentleman Jim and Chuckd to have common ground and the idea of Chuckd almost agreeing with Obama is of great concern!

[chuckd]

Credo:

Please don't think my agreeing with an Obama decision is setting a precedent.

[ABCer]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

there's a pattern here:

>>> atrocities occur

>>> there's a resounding outcry for US response (what other country has the might?)

>>> US military responds

>>> time goes by

>>> more time goes by

>>> there are demonstrations against the US, for being self-appointed policeman of the world.

>>> public outcry of over-stepping by some US forces. One or more isolated stories of excesses.

>>> the same people who were campaigning for US intervention weeks earlier, are now demonstrating for US withdrawal.

>>> The US reputation as a 'war monger' nation is reinforced.

addendum: Uncle Sam is: "damned if he does, damned if he don't."

The Syrian war is a spin off from Iraq, ISIS are a spin off from Iraq, who has funded the 'rebels' in Syria? Who has by default armed and financed ISIS? My reply was to the line "Uncle Sam is: "damned if he does, damned if he don't.""

As I said Bush et al I am not sure it was the land of milk and honey, but would you like to do a head count of how many families are now missing loved ones since the start of the war in Iraq till now and the 12 years previous to the start of the war. I think post war till now could be quite a few more - and there were no WMD's.

You all seem quite blase' even flippant about the deaths of so many innocent people. I guess it's all ok as long as it's not in your back yard.

If you are interested in doing head counts in Iraq, why not look at Iran as well.

I still remember that 900 dead per annum by Shah were incriminating till he was ousted by revolutionary 'students'.

Resa Pahlavi - the staunchest ally of US in the region was dropped by his friends like a hot potato.

Then the 'head count' went to about 900 per day. Including the US Embassy staff. It hurts to have memories going back so far.

[boomerangutang]

Another Bosnia and Rwanda on the way. all because the west caused the break up of Iraq. Shameful

The best case possible scenario in the M.East is a screwed up mess with lots of suffering people (other flora and fauna got banished centuries ago). Worse is the 1,000 other scenarios, some of which we're witnessing now. Even if the US didn't exist, the M.East would be seriously screwed up. They've got a lot going against them;

>>> a religion steeped in fear, vindictiveness and cruelty.

>>> nearly no natural resources,

>>> too many people.

>>> inability to discuss things in order to find a solution,

>>> lust for conflict, particularly by young men

....the list goes on and on.

....In my opinion, he should unleash the drones, FA-18s and Diego Garcia's B-52s for a few bombing runs. Drop MOABs here and there to get their attention. Take the war to the savages.

Interesting and passionate response. However, rife with further pitfalls. Civilian casualties (ISIS hide among civilians). I agree though, if there's a target that is clearly militant/military, take it out, and hope it doesn't turn out to be a 'friendly fire' incident. There could well be Iraqi and Kurds on the battlefield, and telling them apart from the bad guys is not easy.

[CBR250]

Hopefully one day ISIS will all grouped together singing kumbaya in their nice Islamic state........then we should follow Nike's advice and.....

....Just do it!

Mmmm. That makes sense. We hate these people because they murder others. So let's murder them!

[Ulysses G.]

Hopefully one day ISIS will all grouped together singing kumbaya in their nice Islamic state........then we should follow Nike's advice and.....

....Just do it!

Mmmm. That makes sense. We hate these people because they murder others. So let's murder them!

The problem with evil is that it forces you to be evil back.

[simple1]

Hopefully one day ISIS will all grouped together singing kumbaya in their nice Islamic state........then we should follow Nike's advice and.....

....Just do it!

Mmmm. That makes sense. We hate these people because they murder others. So let's murder them!

The problem with evil is that it forces you to be evil back.

You are joking? Don't believe you support, unlike some others, the use of nuclear weapons on IS / Islamic extremist held territory.

[Ulysses G.]

No one said anything about nukes. Conventional weapons are a different story. ISIS are evil personified.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[simple1]

No one said anything about nukes. Conventional weapons are a different story. ISIS are evil personified.

Sorry, but you posted in the thread that included a comment by uptheos that clearly infers the use of nuclear weapons, on 10 Aug 2014 - 18:15, who said:

Hopefully one day ISIS will all grouped together singing kumbaya in their nice Islamic state........then we should follow Nike's advice and.....

....Just do it!

Good to hear you disassociate your self from this view...

[Jip99]

Hopefully one day ISIS will all grouped together singing kumbaya in their nice Islamic state........then we should follow Nike's advice and.....

....Just do it!

Mmmm. That makes sense. We hate these people because they murder others. So let's murder them!

So what would YOU do? Hand out goodie bags and leaflets on how to integrate into the civilised world ?

[simple1]

Hopefully one day ISIS will all grouped together singing kumbaya in their nice Islamic state........then we should follow Nike's advice and.....

....Just do it!

Mmmm. That makes sense. We hate these people because they murder others. So let's murder them!

So what would YOU do? Hand out goodie bags and leaflets on how to integrate into the civilised world ?

No, but personally I would not support the use of nuclear weapons that maybe kill hundreds of thousands of civilians to kill at best 10k+ plus Islamic extremists in IS held territory. Together with a strong possibility with a follow on nuclear arms race by the regional state actors such as KSR; plus global ramifications etc etc etc

[Steely Dan]

Hopefully one day ISIS will all grouped together singing kumbaya in their nice Islamic state........then we should follow Nike's advice and.....

....Just do it!

Mmmm. That makes sense. We hate these people because they murder others. So let's murder them!

So what would YOU do? Hand out goodie bags and leaflets on how to integrate into the civilised world ?

To paraphrase the late great Christopher Hitchens, if someone is actively trying to murder you and your loved ones it is your duty to take at least as much Interest in killing them. On a practical level this is best done away from your own civilian populations, the trouble is this is no longer possible.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4590/germany-jihad#

Here we have violent attacks in Germany on the long suffering Yazidis because they had the temerity to complain about the genocide being carried out on them. So what do you do? On a domestic level I see the west capitulating entirely or reaching a realization that liberal niceties are a dead weight that will drag democracies down with them unless radical solutions are entertained. For a start I would revoke citizenship or cancel residence permits to all those spreading Islamic extemism and deport them. Secondly stop religion being conferred protection or any special status deporting any who use it in a manner deemed unacceptable to it's host society. As for nuking IS, it would only be considerations of collateral damage which would stop me, I make no bones about that whatsoever.

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[CBR250]

Hopefully one day ISIS will all grouped together singing kumbaya in their nice Islamic state........then we should follow Nike's advice and.....

....Just do it!

Mmmm. That makes sense. We hate these people because they murder others. So let's murder them!

The problem with evil is that it forces you to be evil back.

You are joking? Don't believe you support, unlike some others, the use of nuclear weapons on IS / Islamic extremist held territory.

Sorry, Simple1. My tongue was so firmly in my cheek that it wasn't apparent. No, I have not signed up to the nuke 'em all brigade. I hate what is happening to innocent people in the ME - whether from ISIS or the IDF - and detest those who engage in depraved and cowardly acts. But I have not yet become so morally bereft that I think it is best to meet murder with murder.

[ttthailand]

I think they should give Isis a big piece of land and let them all move there. Then nuke the dogs ! Problem solved !

[chuckd]

No one said anything about nukes. Conventional weapons are a different story. ISIS are evil personified.

Sorry, but you posted in the thread that included a comment by uptheos that clearly infers the use of nuclear weapons, on 10 Aug 2014 - 18:15, who said:

Hopefully one day ISIS will all grouped together singing kumbaya in their nice Islamic state........then we should follow Nike's advice and.....

....Just do it!

Good to hear you disassociate your self from this view...

Perhaps uptheos was thinking about dropping a few MOABs.

That could do damage to an ISIS all "grouped together singing Kumbaya". Under his scenario, nukes wouldn't even be needed.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/afweapons/l/blmoab.htm

[chuckd]

Hopefully one day ISIS will all grouped together singing kumbaya in their nice Islamic state........then we should follow Nike's advice and.....

....Just do it!

Mmmm. That makes sense. We hate these people because they murder others. So let's murder them!

Despite your tongue being firmly in your cheek, you have hit on the answer to getting rid of ISIS and, perhaps, saving thousands of innocent lives.

You kill them before they kill everybody else.

Rather elementary.

[Jip99]

Hopefully one day ISIS will all grouped together singing kumbaya in their nice Islamic state........then we should follow Nike's advice and.....

....Just do it!

Mmmm. That makes sense. We hate these people because they murder others. So let's murder them!

So what would YOU do? Hand out goodie bags and leaflets on how to integrate into the civilised world ?

No, but personally I would not support the use of nuclear weapons that maybe kill hundreds of thousands of civilians to kill at best 10k+ plus Islamic extremists in IS held territory. Together with a strong possibility with a follow on nuclear arms race by the regional state actors such as KSR; plus global ramifications etc etc etc

Nor me - I share the comments about collateral damage being the only reason against. Conventional weapons are OK but I believe in attacking a cancer before it becomes terminal.

Arguably, Hiroshima was not a proportionate response - but it sorted the job out.

[simple1]

Sorry, Simple1. My tongue was so firmly in my cheek that it wasn't apparent. No, I have not signed up to the nuke 'em all brigade. I hate what is happening to innocent people in the ME - whether from ISIS or the IDF - and detest those who engage in depraved and cowardly acts. But I have not yet become so morally bereft that I think it is best to meet murder with murder.

Posts removed for response.

No problem, I was not associating you with the thoughts of uptheos

[CBR250]

I think they should give Isis a big piece of land and let them all move there. Then nuke the dogs ! Problem solved !

Well, there are those of us who also have issues with:

• Russia in Ukraine.
• China in Tibet & Xingjiang.
• The IDF in Gaza.
• Indonesia in West Papua.

And then, of course, there are those "others" who have problems with more "others".

• The Kurds and Iraqis.
• The Fijians and the Indians.
• Burmese and Rohingas.
• Maoris and pakehas.
• Spain and the Basques.

Can we send 'em all? Or just those of whom you personally disapprove? Maybe you could throw in a few freebies. I don't like the NY Yankees all that much. Or women tennis players who squeal on each hit. Luckily, the Catholics and Protestants have settled hostilities at present.

So, are you offering to arrange transport for everyone who someone finds offensive, lunatic or dangerous? Is your bomb really big enough? And do you want to videotape them as the flesh is melted off their bones?