Being Muslim and Gay in Thailand

[Jingthing]

As I am against conversion efforts from the religious, it would be hypocritical of me to support conversion efforts of the non-religious. Tolerance is best.

[OMGImInPattaya]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

As an atheist, I am with you on this although one shouldn't each too much bacon. Focus on healthy fats instead like avocado, almonds, and olive oil. However, I don't think religious people welcome being confronted and insulted any more than atheists welcome rude evangelists. Freedom of religion should OF COURSE include freedom of NO RELIGION!

I certainly understand those brights, like yourself, who take this position; and I'm sure it's true that we could attract more of these religious flies to non-belief with sweet words of honey rather than mocking words of vinegar but it's not my nature. I kinda take Sam Harris' position that it is necessary to confront religious people with the logical fallacies and contradictions in both their beliefs and religious texts. The squishy "moderates" of these religious cults have little influence within their communities and it's the extremes that make and pressure governments and politicians to enact their religious dogmas as public policy. This can no longer be tolerated in silence and needs to be actively confronted, opposed, and if necessary repressed.

[OMGImInPattaya]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

As an atheist, I am with you on this although one shouldn't each too much bacon. Focus on healthy fats instead like avocado, almonds, and olive oil. However, I don't think religious people welcome being confronted and insulted any more than atheists welcome rude evangelists. Freedom of religion should OF COURSE include freedom of NO RELIGION!

slightly off topic... quite often i have read postings in which TV-members claim to be "atheists". not once the expression agnostic was used. that's why my specific question to you JT "are you an atheist or agnostic?"

I consider myself non-dogmatic atheist.

I think religion is part of human nature to make death more acceptable and as a powerful tool of social control, but the more intellectually advanced of us modern people can overcome that weakness. I have no personal problem with TOLERANT religious people and also agnostics. Agnostics are similar to bisexuals in a way, don't you think?

From 4:00

I think part of the problem is definitional; I would like to say I'm an atheist but I can't prove a negative so technically I'm an agnostic. However, I have no problem telling people I'm an atheist. If there actually is some creative force active in the universe that would be cool...but if there is, why should it only be apparent after death?

I'm not sure I'm really getting your bisexual analogy? Are you saying there aren't real bisexuals and that they are really confused or too embarrassed to come out as completely gay? So you're saying agnostics are just reluctant, for societal pressure reasons, to say they're atheists?

[Jingthing]

I really was just being cheeky. Sorry.

[OMGImInPattaya]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

what about dumping dumb opinions presented by irrelevant and childish remarks?

What is this obsession some people have with Muslims and Pork!!!?

I am reminded of a story from many years past. A university pal of mine was dating his childhood sweetheart. She was a truly sweet and innocent country gal. On occasion, my pal behaved abominably towards her. The belittlements and bullying always centred around meat.

For you see, the sweet and innocent country gal was a vergetarian. Oh, the apparent crime of choosing not to eat meat!

When we ate out for dinner as a group or at each other's house, he would inevitably order a meat dish of some sort. Steak was usually somewhere in the frame. At these times my pal always had the need to tell his girlfriend how good meat tasted, even holding the meat up to her face with his fork and making 'yum yum yum' sound effects, telling her she was missing out on this great tasting food.

Why was my pal so threatened by a vegetarian? His GF accepted his meat eating, why could he not accept her vegetarianism?

Whenever I hear the 'Pork' comment I am reminded of this story. Why do the actions of others bother some people so very very much?

Dude it was a joke and meant to point out your silly dietary rules. (There is a theory that proscribed meats in various religions came about to combat a reversion back to cannibalism among adherents as said meats have a taste similar to human flesh.) I don't give a whit what you, or anyone else, chooses to eat. It's just funny to point out all the silliness in religious beliefs...like why do you Muslims also hate dogs? Was Mohamed chased down the block and bitten by a dog in his street preaching days...did a dog once pee on a Quran...what?

[Jingthing]

Porking might take another meaning here!

[OMGImInPattaya]

Porking might take another meaning here!

Especially for gay Muslims

[Emster23]

regarding "and of course you will submit a bundle of scientific evidence to prove your claim. we are waiting.": can't prove a negative, like can't prove tooth fairy doesn't exist. It is up to those who assert there is such a thing as god to offer proof, and we have been waiting a long long time for that.

Seems to me that if one were to believe in one of those Abrahamic religions, it would require being all in or nothing. Ignoring certain clearly awful prohibitions, punishments etc negates idea of being a true Muslim, Christian or Jew. I don't recall any of the so-called prophets advocating "Well, if you don't like this strict version, we now have Islam lite ". Like Kesey said "You're either on the bus or off the bus". Go to Iran (or any number of Muslim dominated countries) and announce you are gay and Muslim. I doubt if they will be compassionate and merciful.

[AyG]

Was Mohamed chased down the block and bitten by a dog in his street preaching days...did a dog once pee on a Quran...what?

The Islamic hatred of dogs has a far more rational reason: it's because angels won't enter a house with a dog in it. Not sure why he had a particular hatred of black ones, though, ordering that they should all be killed. (Abu Dawud #2839, Muslim #3813)

Certainly a dog didn't pee on a Koran during Mohammed's day. He was illiterate, and the Koran was only written down about 300 years after his death. Indeed, there's some speculation that he didn't exist at all, but is purely a propaganda figure dreamed up at the time for political reasons.

[Jingthing]

Gay, Muslim, Proud, and Happy.

Why the hell not?

My queer Muslim identity is something I now celebrate.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ramy-eletreby/coming-out-in-the-muslim-community_b_5533991.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices&ir=Gay%20Voices

Edited June 27, 2014 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

Deknoi, you're lucky that this has stayed in the Gay Forum. If it had been transferred elsewhere, you would have been bombarded by stupid anti-religious remarks. You've had a few here, but only a few.

AyG and others (even less sensible), religious people do not have to justify ourselves to you. You are all entitled to your own opinions; as I said near the beginning of this thread, we all have to make our own choices about religion (or otherwise). That done, we should respect the rights of others to do the same.

Our gayness is something we are born with; our religion we choose (or perhaps inherit from our forebears; why should that be wrong?). We have confidence in our beliefs, and do not feel obliged to attack atheists, or agnostics or whatever.

[Naam]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

Feel better name calling someone's beliefs childish ?

I'm glad you like pigs but somehow I don't think the OP's diet is our concern.

The gay thing is great but the religious thing is just whack! If the op had any reasoning skills, you would think he might notice the contradiction in his own personal situation. Every major Muslim religious authority in the world has declared that Allah has told them there is no such thing as "gay." Our nice "Muslim" op has said he's gay (and I'm assuming this his lived experience and not some theoretical construct). So what is the more authentic and real experience and deserving of belief?

The gay thing is great but the religious thing is just whack!

i bow to your infinite wisdom dear Sir

[Naam]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

Why should there be freedom of religion? Teaching children when they're most impressionable that there's some sky wizard who meddles in their lives and hates them if they love someone of the same sex is nothing short of child abuse.

There is no god. There never has been any evidence of a god or gods. People who believe otherwise are simply deluding themselves. And I believe it's the responsibility of those who understand this to challenge the beliefs of followers of the invisible (and non-existent) puppet master, even though this may cause some offence. So to write "dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief" is a kindness, wanting to encourage someone to question what they believe, but is ultimately a societal lie.

and of course you will submit a bundle of scientific evidence to prove your claim. we are waiting...

I submit the whole body of scientific thought and investigation since at least Galileo. None of which has pointed to any supernatural force acting upon or in the universe. What's your evidence to the contrary?

i did not make any unsubstantiated claims therefore no need to submit any evidence.

[deknoiJT]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

Feel better name calling someone's beliefs childish ?

I'm glad you like pigs but somehow I don't think the OP's diet is our concern.

The gay thing is great but the religious thing is just whack! If the op had any reasoning skills, you would think he might notice the contradiction in his own personal situation. Every major Muslim religious authority in the world has declared that Allah has told them there is no such thing as "gay." Our nice "Muslim" op has said he's gay (and I'm assuming this his lived experience and not some theoretical construct). So what is the more authentic and real experience and deserving of belief?

Sir, you need to concern yourself more with your own views and interpretations of life and worry less about what 'others' think.

"South African Muhsin Hendricks is an Islamic cleric and a gay man.

He runs a foundation called The Inner Circle, which helps Muslims, who are struggling to accept their sexuality. He has come to the Netherlands to spread a simple message: “It’s okay to be Muslim and gay!”

Muhsin Hendricks looks a little tired. He is in the Netherlands at the invitation of the Amsterdam branch of gay rights organisation COC and he’s on a punishing schedule. There is enormous public interest in the “pink imam”, as he’s been dubbed.

Sin

But every trace of fatigue vanishes as Mushin Hendricks talks about his faith and his sexuality."

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/gay-imam-spreads-message-homosexuality-not-sinful

Edited June 27, 2014 by deknoiJT

[deknoiJT]

Dude it was a joke and meant to point out your silly dietary rules. (There is a theory that proscribed meats in various religions came about to combat a reversion back to cannibalism among adherents as said meats have a taste similar to human flesh.) I don't give a whit what you, or anyone else, chooses to eat. It's just funny to point out all the silliness in religious beliefs...like why do you Muslims also hate dogs? Was Mohamed chased down the block and bitten by a dog in his street preaching days...did a dog once pee on a Quran...what?

I do not accept you made the pork comment in good taste or as a humorous anecdotes. What is 'silly' to you is not silly to others.

Bigots and bullies like to make snarky verbal attacks like these then when called out on the matter say 'oh I was joking'.

Sorry dude, that dog don't hunt here.

[spidermike007]

With the month of Ramadan upon us it is for myself a time of personal reflection.

Thailand is one of the most accepting countries in the world in regards to sexuality and religion.

Why do so many Western expats find the relation of being gay and Muslim so contentious? You can be Christian and Gay. You can be Jewish and Gay. You can be Buddhist and Gay.

I am gay and I decide my religious beliefs, no one else decides for me. Many Westerners that pass through my sphere believe they are entitled to offer me advice on my lifestyle and the ‘correct’ paths that I should follow. Pffft! I say to them.

I never get sexuality or religious advice from Thai people. Never!

I was born into a Muslim family in the West. My family practised Islam and so I grew up practising it also.

When some people think of Islam or a Muslim they think of the women being forced to wear Hijabs and men with long beards. Of course some Muslims are that stereotype but so many Western Muslims and Thai Muslims are not.

In Western countries many Muslims practise a less strict form of Islam, choosing less attendance at worship, hijabs that are a fashion more than a hindrance. Many younger Muslims will drink alcohol and yes of course, there are plenty of gay Muslims. Trust me on that.

I am not a Religious scholar so I can only speak for my view of Allah and my view of Islam. For me there is no rule or law against being gay and being Muslim. Like the Bible, there are thousands of different interpretations of the Quran. There are entire educational eco-systems dedicated to the debate and study and interpretation of such documents.

In Thailand I can be gay and Muslim and proud of it. I thank the Thai people for accepting my partner and me.

During your day spare a thought for all the variations life offers up to us and find acceptance in your heart for others.

Thank you, great post. Yes, you are right. The bottom line is that Islam has had a PR issue for the past ten years or so. Nobody is really explaining things to the masses, who seem to like to dumb things down. I have been traveling to Muslim countries for a few decades now, and most people I meet are quite moderate, and secular. They are very level headed, and some are liberal. No reason why you should not be able to be gay, Muslim and proud. I just wish there were a way of allowing most people to understand how low the percentage of Muslims who support extreme activities really is. Or a way of silencing the extremists who preach hatred. Either would work. Regardless, live you life with pride, dignity and be who you are.

Spidermike

Chaiyaphum, Thailand

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[spidermike007]

Dude it was a joke and meant to point out your silly dietary rules. (There is a theory that proscribed meats in various religions came about to combat a reversion back to cannibalism among adherents as said meats have a taste similar to human flesh.) I don't give a whit what you, or anyone else, chooses to eat. It's just funny to point out all the silliness in religious beliefs...like why do you Muslims also hate dogs? Was Mohamed chased down the block and bitten by a dog in his street preaching days...did a dog once pee on a Quran...what?

I do not accept you made the pork comment in good taste or as a humorous anecdotes. What is 'silly' to you is not silly to others.

Bigots and bullies like to make snarky verbal attacks like these then when called out on the matter say 'oh I was joking'.

Sorry dude, that dog don't hunt here.

As Jules, from Pulp Fiction liked to say "I avoid eating the flesh of an animal who does not have the good sense to avoid its own feces".

Spidermike

Chaiyaphum, Thailand

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[spidermike007]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

what about dumping dumb opinions presented by irrelevant and childish remarks?

What is this obsession some people have with Muslims and Pork!!!?

I am reminded of a story from many years past. A university pal of mine was dating his childhood sweetheart. She was a truly sweet and innocent country gal. On occasion, my pal behaved abominably towards her. The belittlements and bullying always centred around meat.

For you see, the sweet and innocent country gal was a vergetarian. Oh, the apparent crime of choosing not to eat meat!

When we ate out for dinner as a group or at each other's house, he would inevitably order a meat dish of some sort. Steak was usually somewhere in the frame. At these times my pal always had the need to tell his girlfriend how good meat tasted, even holding the meat up to her face with his fork and making 'yum yum yum' sound effects, telling her she was missing out on this great tasting food.

Why was my pal so threatened by a vegetarian? His GF accepted his meat eating, why could he not accept her vegetarianism?

Whenever I hear the 'Pork' comment I am reminded of this story. Why do the actions of others bother some people so very very much?

There is something so glorious, elegant, refined, and dignified in those around us who practice acceptance. And something so graceless, crude, tasteless, and vulgar in those that do not have the heart, soul, or understanding to accept those that make choices that are not our own. A man, or woman, who is comfortable in their own skin, finds it simple to accept others who have different views, beliefs, lifestyles, and habits than their own.

Spidermike

Chaiyaphum, Thailand

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[spidermike007]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

what about dumping dumb opinions presented by irrelevant and childish remarks?

What is this obsession some people have with Muslims and Pork!!!?

I am reminded of a story from many years past. A university pal of mine was dating his childhood sweetheart. She was a truly sweet and innocent country gal. On occasion, my pal behaved abominably towards her. The belittlements and bullying always centred around meat.

For you see, the sweet and innocent country gal was a vergetarian. Oh, the apparent crime of choosing not to eat meat!

When we ate out for dinner as a group or at each other's house, he would inevitably order a meat dish of some sort. Steak was usually somewhere in the frame. At these times my pal always had the need to tell his girlfriend how good meat tasted, even holding the meat up to her face with his fork and making 'yum yum yum' sound effects, telling her she was missing out on this great tasting food.

Why was my pal so threatened by a vegetarian? His GF accepted his meat eating, why could he not accept her vegetarianism?

Whenever I hear the 'Pork' comment I am reminded of this story. Why do the actions of others bother some people so very very much?

Because those people are not comfortable in their own skin, perhaps?

Edited June 28, 2014 by spidermike007

[Albertosez]

Let them get on with it - I say. If they were not in to religion then they would be in to something else. Folk with spare time will seek to fill it, one way or another, so in some circumstances it's better to follow a religion - as long as it's a peaceful pursuit !

I'm a " Jovo Bystander " myself - I see all and whiteness f**kall !

[spidermike007]

There is something so glorious, elegant, refined, and dignified in those around us who practice acceptance. And something so graceless, crude, tasteless, and vulgar in those that do not have the heart, soul, or understanding to accept those that make choices that are not our own. A man, or woman, who is comfortable in their own skin, finds it simple to accept others who have different views, beliefs, lifestyles, and habits than their own.

Utter rot. If it were simply a matter of individuals having a belief that didn't impact upon others, that would be fine. However, that is not the case.

- Moslem parents indoctrinate their children with their beliefs, perpetuating the lie.

- These parents discriminate against their daughters and favour their sons, leaving the former ill-educated, often illiterate and second class citizens with lesser rights.

- Moslems force their values upon others. In the UK, non-Moslem school teachers have been forced to wear the hijab, and halal meat has become a commonplace in schools, prisons, canteens, with many places no longer preparing pork.

- Moslems block streets in Paris with their prayers and pollute the atmosphere with their azan - audible to Moslem and Kafir alike.

- Moslems favour religious education over secular. This education fails the students. Recently it was reported that students from pondok schools in the south of Thailand were ill prepared to go on to higher education in any subject other than Islamic Studies. (See Bangkok Post 26th June.)

- Moslems (some, far from all) encourage their co-religionists to fight against governments, slaughter Christians, rape women, kidnap girls and fly planes into tall buildings.

The perpetuation of the image of Islam's prophet as the ideal role model; the ongoing regarding a holy book that contains stories about a magic flying donkey and the sun setting in a muddy pond as the literal word of god eternally, infallibly true; and the continued belief in a god for which there is not a shred of evidence aren't simply a private matter to be tolerated, but impact upon all of society, all of humanity.

I'm pleased that the OP can come to terms with the conflict between his religion and his sexuality. But wouldn't it have been better if there were no religion, and so no conflict?

Probably. But, I suppose that is not my point. My point was acceptance. Accepting people for who they are. I am not advocating a belief in the Lord, or the practice of organized religion, which I do not have a lot of need for. But, people are people. And many of the gross generalizations you make do not apply to the majority of Muslims. It applies to a percentage. What that percentage is, nobody knows. But, from my experience it is not the majority. Muslims have very bad PR. The extremists make their lives very difficult. Most moderate Muslims are afraid to stand up and defend their beliefs, and the moderate parts of their faith, due to fear from the freaks. The extremists are very, very small men. Many are missing their endowment. Most of the extremists are cowards, thieves, criminals, whores, and misanthropes. But, they make the lives of the normal rank and file Muslim a living hell. And they persecute those that do not share their extreme ideology. I share your dislike of these traditions that are forced down peoples throats. It is ugly. And I agree there is a level of intolerance out there that is very misguided, and not based on wisdom, at all. I just do not share your belief that it is the majority of Muslims who follow that kind of nonsense. I think the percentage that share a Sudan kind of intolerance, where a woman is sentenced to death over her marriage to a Christian man, and her conversion to his faith is very small. These are incredibly insecure men, who are impotent, and man children. They have no maturity. They do not believe in themselves. They are uncomfortable in their own skin. That forces them to want to cram their ridiculous beliefs down peoples throats. They are an abomination to their own faith. I am simply advocating tolerance of the moderates, and the majority. We do have to live together, after all, right?

[simple1]

As I understand the OP is talking to his experience of Thailand as a gay Muslim. The references to a small minority of Muslims overseas has very little relevance to the practice of Islam by Thai Muslims.

Living within a Thai Sunni Muslim community for four years, not once did I observe the issues posted by AyG other than Muslims consider Mohammed as the last messenger of God.

I believe it is correct that Thai Muslims in the deep South overall under perform educationally, but only by a small percentile, probably higher numbers in the more remote areas. From the URL below:

Access to education remains unhindered with students flocking daily to schools and universities, although Thai remains the only official language of instruction – a major point of grievance for the majority Malay-speaking population.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/05/thailands-deep-south-living-in-conflict/

Edited June 28, 2014 by simple1

[Bernard Flint]

Moved to Gay Forum.

Why have you moved this to the Gay Forum? I am offended.

This is NOT a Gay issue, this is a discussion of tolerance in Thai society.

Really! This is what my post is all about. Being pigeon-holed as a 'Gay' or 'Muslim' by Westerners! You have pigeon holed me again by making this a Gay issue.

Just because I am gay, that does not mean I want all my discussions and postings to be universally placed in the Gay Forum. I encourage wide views and opinions.

Please move this back to General where it is most appropriate.

I actualy thought that, totaly out of order i think

[Albertosez]

Slightly off topic, but relevant in the whole schem of things. We seem to have a few intellectuals on this thread - judging by the writing ( I know it's early, my bars open already ) - but I am just wondering if anyone else has actually read the book " Human Givens " written by some very clever folk. I've been meaning to finish it because I've had it some years already, but never did quite read the last chapter or two! I think I understood most of it anyway, by the time I had got to the last couple of chapters. I'm not very clever and had to read most of it twice ( many big words etc ) - but I am interested to know if anyone else has actually read this book ? A very good book BTW which puts most things in to context !

[Jingthing]

On the gay Muslim in Thailand topic, I have a question. I find gay Thai Muslims appealing. I relate to them being a minority group in Thailand. I think they've been dealt a hard hand by the Thai majority. I used to relate better to other minority groups in the USA so I haven't changed that way. I like that they are CUT like me ... I think cut is best for all, so clean and elegant without that extra floppy stuff. But I wonder about the political feelings of gay Thai Muslims towards gay Jews, Israelis, etc. Would there be any expectation of political bias from them due to the thorny issue of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? I find that Thais in general have a very low awareness of any kind of international political situation ... but this is a more specific question about gay Thai Muslims. I kind of feel that most would have strong negative opinions towards Jews because of either toxic propaganda and/or rational expectation that Jews would be quite likely to be supportive of the existence of Israel. This is a sincere question. If some feel it doesn't fit here, so be it, don't answer then. Especially don't answer if you don't know anything about it.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Jingthing

[Scott]

A number of off-topic, inflammatory posts and replies have been deleted. This is about someone who is Gay and Muslim. It's not about how bad Muslims are, and it's not about a comparison of Buddhism and Islam.

This is the gay forum. Please stay on topic. Several posters are on very, very much on the edge.

[isanbirder]

I forgot to add that it doesn't really matter what Western expats think; the topic is about what Thais think. Unfortunately we have very few Thai posters, so those of us who have been here some time have to fill in for them.

[ubonjoe]

Several posts have been removed for various reasons including some that comments about moderation.

[Jingthing]

Coming Out Muslim.

It's a thing.

Who knew?

http://comingoutmuslim.com/

[jacky54]

There are five verses in the Koran against homosexual conduct and none in favour, so how can a Muslim obey the Koran and be gay? You cannot 'interpret' the Koran as it is the word of god according to Muslims and cannot be altered.