Naming and Shaming A Dodgy Builder

[UKJASE]

a builder took 500,000 B from us. he then said he had ran out of cash after not even completing 30% of the initial phase

we are now taking him to court

i would like to also name and shame him. what is the law regarding this here in thailand?

if i were to put information about our situation on the internet, could i be sued for slander (especially if we did not win the court case)?

if i was to put the information on the net whilst i was in the UK, and the information was not on servers based in thailand, would i still be open to prosecution upon my return to thailand?

[KittenKong]

Thai law prohibits defamation, not just slander. As far as I know you can be prosecuted in Thailand for defamation anywhere, if it is clear that you are the person who did the naming and shaming.

[dddave]

I know a case of a Thai woman who was assaulted in a hotel corridor by a wealthy, drunken Thai man.

It was all caught on security cameras and she pressed charges and took him to court.

She lost and he got off. (His lawyer got the video tapes disallowed as evidence.)

He then sued her for defamation.

He won;...She lost.

[MYKTHEMIN]

Total waste of time, get a new builder and move on, it is NOT worth all the hastle, you will never get any money back just loose more on lawyers and court fees. live and learn.

[Farma]

The wife had a similar problem maybe 6 or so years back. It's not worth naming and shaming as they can come back at you for libel.

Her builder took half up front to purchase materials. He had come recommended and she knew he had fallen on hard times and hoped she was helping him out.

Instead of buying the materials he blew the money on drugs alcohol and gambling thinking a nice lady will just write it off.

The wife organised a senior police friend to accompany her while she asked for the money back. The following day his family handed back the funds in full.

[shirtless]

Never pay a builder up front, Buy the materials yourself unless you want to be ripped off.

[Pralaad]

Builder took 500K, court case will cost you around 250K.

He has done 30% of work, so in the end, you may walk away with winning verdict but with even less money in the bank.

This is actually pretty normal for Thailand for builders to do this.

Split payments into 5 portions and pay as you go.

Go with them to buy the materials, so if they do the runner, you at least get to keep the materials.

They often use the need more money, can not buy the materials,, again do not give money, go with them and buy the materials.

If they threaten they will walk away if you do not pay, wish them all the best and show them the door.

Also common to quote the job, but then it turns out builder is not very good at maths and needs double the cement and everything else.

Again, do not give in, if thats the case, its his problem, not yours.

PS. Totally understand your frustration, but think twice if you want to loose more money. Not too many people see any money back but do end up wasting more

[Lee4Life]

Unfortunately the laws here are such that it would be wise to be careful who you mention this to. Believe me...I've been there

[SamuiRes]

The truth is no defence to defamation in Thailand.

[JoeLing]

Some times it's not a question of the law, not a question of right or wrong but

more on how long does one intend to stay alive here in the and of smiles.

[stgrhe]

Why would anyone pay so much money up front without a security, e.g. a bankers guarantee?

The golden rule in any sound business is that you pay nothing for nothing; and in the case of building a house you pay by installments after each completed phase and final payment after full completion.

If the builder cannot finance the construction with his own money, walk away!

[catweazle]

Difficult to judge this situation by the minimum of info you did provide - 500k was the initial payment - how much for the whole building and how many payment installations did you agree upon?

In Thailand you will often find Thai "builders" who have been working in construction before and all of a sudden decide to become builders themselves. For the initial projects they will often give super low prices since they are unable to put all costs into the calculation such as overtime, unproductive days due to rain or injuries, rise in material costs, transport, time, material costs in general, cost and maintenance of machines and trucks, visas and accommodation for Burmese workers, etc.

My initial builder (until I stopped outsourcing to take things in my own hands) was the same, but I could already see that his quote was far under what the actual material and building costs would be. So I did not make a big fuzz about it when partial payments were needed earlier and in the end all was approx. 25% more expensive than initially agreed on. I paid the difference without whining, as I already knew what's gonna happen and was prepared - still, his price was far below what it would cost me today with my own team! I could also have insisted on the agreed numbers what would have killed him instantly (financially) and would have left me with a half finished house (like you). Instead I looked at the greater picture and got him to the point where he was able to quote more exactly, and I ended up building five houses with him and his team (still with the additional 25 or 20% on top paying unbelievably low prices for properly-built houses) before I took matters in my own hands with my own foreman, team and machines. The latter costs me more (surprise, surprise!) but the quality is just awesome.

However - without that initial builder guy (let's call him "Somchai") I would not be where I am today. If I would have reacted like you did and intend to act in the future (slender), I would be dead broke today and perhaps dead. You need to see both sides of the coin!

Perhaps you kinda "forced" him to quote you a superlow Cheap Charly price and he was too weak and in such money trouble that he simply agreed to it all without thinking twice. The typical Thai "Yes, no problem!" thing... Usually stories like yours are born through those Cheap Charly ways of thinking. Correct me if I am wrong, but I sense I am close to the true essence of your story here.

In any case, I'd strongly suggest you to let go of your naming and shaming idea - it will do you more harm than good! Perhaps you really needed this lesson - grow on it instead of bearing grudges.

Edited July 2, 2014 by catweazle

[catweazle]

Why would anyone pay so much money up front without a security, e.g. a bankers guarantee?

The golden rule in any sound business is that you pay nothing for nothing; and in the case of building a house you pay by installments after each completed phase and final payment after full completion.

If the builder cannot finance the construction with his own money, walk away!

Dead wrong! No builder starts without a downpayment! This is some of the biggest B$ I've ever heard!

Edited July 2, 2014 by catweazle

[JeremyBowskill]

"Perhaps you kinda "forced" him to quote you a superlow Cheap Charly price and he was too weak and in such money trouble that he simply agreed to it all without thinking twice. The typical Thai "Yes, no problem!" thing... Usually stories like yours are born through those Cheap Charly ways of thinking. Correct me if I am wrong, but I sense I am close to the true essence of your story here."

What a crock of horsesh!t!!! How is it OP's fault that someone can't add up??? Exactly how could you force someone to quote stupidly?

[rlopes]

Total waste of time, get a new builder and move on, it is NOT worth all the hastle, you will never get any money back just loose more on lawyers and court fees. live and learn.

Being a coward is what makes these people think they can do anything. There's always a way to screw someone.

[vtjforyou]

Internet cafe and free blogging websites are good for that, then defame the monkeys as much as you want <3

[NoshowJones]

Never pay a builder up front, Buy the materials yourself unless you want to be ripped off.

I have had a small house, a large warehouse type of building, a double car port, and various other building work done along with the main house, and never have I been asked for any money up front, and also no comebacks on any of the work.

[NoshowJones]

The truth is no defence to defamation in Thailand.

If it has been proven that you told the truth, is it still defamation of character?

[dddave]

"This is actually pretty normal for Thailand for builders to do this."

Not just Thailand by a long shot; worldwide is more like it In my home state of Massachusetts, complaints against building contractors were number one on the list at the Consumer Protection Bureau.

It has always been the norm for contractors to demand 50% up front, start a job, doing just enough demolition so you can't back out then disappear for 2 or 3 weeks while they finish the previous job, using your deposit to buy materials. They don't come back to you 'till they find another sucker with a deposit. I had it happen with a roof job.

Massachusetts finally started requiring licensing and insurance for contractors but people looking for bargain work will still give the job to crews working under the table....and still get screwed.

[Benmart]

Total waste of time, get a new builder and move on, it is NOT worth all the hastle, you will never get any money back just loose more on lawyers and court fees. live and learn.

Never? I can't speak with such terminal certainty. It's this perceived fear that plays well for the dishonest merchants, vendors, contractors and such.

Times are changing and one has to decide if they wish to be part of that change. Living and learning is a good partner of assertive and courteous pursuit of what is right and just.

So far, that has worked for me.

[a10ams]

Just looking at the numbers .....

500,000 baht for 30% equates to a total of 1.6M for the whole house? Seems to me if the house is halfway decent then you can't be too much out of pocket.

I wouldn't go naming and shaming anybody in Thailand.

[kaptainrob]

Just completed our house, supervised by self as Builder's men incapable and took full control of payments in all finishing stages.

It helped to have been in the trade in a past lifetime.

There are good Builders out there, excellent Tradesmen also, but it takes time and certain skills to locate them. Not easy for the uninitiated.

Any upfront payment should be minor, say 10% of contract value although one must bear in mind that most Thai Builders have no monthly a/c or credit facility with suppliers ... its all COD.

Trademen will walk if unpaid, our original Sparkie lost ~ 40k despite my guarantee of payment for completion. He hadn't been paid by Builder for rough-in 3 months earlier, yet cost to finish was just 3k [by my contractor].

I could write a book ....quicker to build house myself.

[Robert24]

Why would anyone pay so much money up front without a security, e.g. a bankers guarantee?

The golden rule in any sound business is that you pay nothing for nothing; and in the case of building a house you pay by installments after each completed phase and final payment after full completion.

If the builder cannot finance the construction with his own money, walk away!

Dead wrong! No builder starts without a downpayment! This is some of the biggest B$ I've ever heard!

Catweazle is correct. In Thailand construction companies want a down payment of at least 10-15% before they start work which is agreed as part of the contract. Done 2 projects here and haven't come across a construction company that would start without a down payment.

I agree with the point of installments, usually further payments are only done after completion of the next phase and the respective quality check etc whatever has been agreed in the contract. And also agree with a final payment of about 15-20% which is only done after completion.

There is an obvious risk with that down payment, and should you have to change construction companies in the middle of the project, this will increase your cost as well. No way around this and it's just a financial risk you need to be aware and include in a worst case budget scenario. You can also minimize this risk by taking one of the big nationwide construction companies however their prices are significantly higher and I think with a smaller company you can get the same for less money if you manage it closely.

I recommend that before you choose a construction company, you should speak to the owners of projects this company has completed before and get their view on the quality of work etc. For me that has worked out and I was lucky that I never had to change construction company. But bear in mind that quality of work is often poor, you need to regularly do checks. And if you do a bigger project, you may want to hire an engineer for say 1 day per week to check the quality of work done by the construction company. If the building is smaller, then at least I suggest to hire a separate engineer to check the foundation after that has been built.

[ronthai]

Take your loss, or pay hospital bills

[Gonsalviz]

Never pay a builder up front, Buy the materials yourself unless you want to be ripped off.

I have had a small house, a large warehouse type of building, a double car port, and various other building work done along with the main house, and never have I been asked for any money up front, and also no comebacks on any of the work.

And extremely lucky you are.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Gonsalviz

[catweazle]

"Perhaps you kinda "forced" him to quote you a superlow Cheap Charly price and he was too weak and in such money trouble that he simply agreed to it all without thinking twice. The typical Thai "Yes, no problem!" thing... Usually stories like yours are born through those Cheap Charly ways of thinking. Correct me if I am wrong, but I sense I am close to the true essence of your story here."

What a crock of horsesh!t!!! How is it OP's fault that someone can't add up??? Exactly how could you force someone to quote stupidly?

I believe the portion you actually quoted explains it - reading skills and the ability to let a text "sink in" and analyse it would help.

Btw... There was a thread about teaching analytical skills on TV just today

The OPs only fault so far is that he did not give us the whole story - we know that 500k were paid and the house is 30% completed... We have no info about the original contract/agreement, the total house price, time frame, etc. but despite all this missing pieces in the puzzle several members automatically feel obliged to jump on the "fight for that poor, innocent, betrayed foreigner" train without even knowing whether or not he actually was conned after all. It's pathetic!

[UKJASE]

you guys all seem to be assuming the builder was thai. he is not thai. he is English

do you still think we would not win against him in the courts, with this considered?

we have it in writing that he promises to build a house for us etc etc, then later it turns out he doesnt even have a work permit

there are many stories here in hua hin of builders who repeatedly take customers for mugs, and take their money from them

surely by backing down, as many of the posters suggest above, just gives the green light for unscrupulous people like this to carry on ripping of innocent people of their hard earned cash

are you sure i cannot make a website when i am in the UK, that outlines the facts of what has happened?

[UKJASE]

"Perhaps you kinda "forced" him to quote you a superlow Cheap Charly price and he was too weak and in such money trouble that he simply agreed to it all without thinking twice. The typical Thai "Yes, no problem!" thing... Usually stories like yours are born through those Cheap Charly ways of thinking. Correct me if I am wrong, but I sense I am close to the true essence of your story here."

What a crock of horsesh!t!!! How is it OP's fault that someone can't add up??? Exactly how could you force someone to quote stupidly?

I believe the portion you actually quoted explains it - reading skills and the ability to let a text "sink in" and analyse it would help.

Btw... There was a thread about teaching analytical skills on TV just today

The OPs only fault so far is that he did not give us the whole story - we know that 500k were paid and the house is 30% completed... We have no info about the original contract/agreement, the total house price, time frame, etc. but despite all this missing pieces in the puzzle several members automatically feel obliged to jump on the "fight for that poor, innocent, betrayed foreigner" train without even knowing whether or not he actually was conned after all. It's pathetic!

the guy took 500,000 B from us for the first step of the build. this was to set up builders camp, insert footings, insert columns and complete ground beams

he set up a small camp, then nearly completed the footings, before asking for more money. he told us to give him more funds, or find a new builder

it has taken us more than 250,000 B to get to the ground beams being completed (on top of the money we gave him)

[whiteman]

Why would anyone pay so much money up front without a security, e.g. a bankers guarantee?

The golden rule in any sound business is that you pay nothing for nothing; and in the case of building a house you pay by installments after each completed phase and final payment after full completion.

If the builder cannot finance the construction with his own money, walk away!

Dead wrong! No builder starts without a downpayment! This is some of the biggest B$ I've ever heard!

Mine did and he builds the next stage then I pay.

We move in to our finished new house in the next 2 weeks or maybe even 1 week depends on us if we want to be around when they lay the lawns. Great builder finished it under 5 months all Thai workers and his crew have been with him for over 15 years. I live in the Chonbory area and the place is called Phanya Resort it is attached to the Crystal Bay Golf Club. I rai goes for approx 6 to 7 million these days we got ours for 5. The builder was recommended buy a top engineer that builds the Mazda and Toyota plants down here my wife teachers English too the engineer. So I guess we got lucky and we were fair with the builder and respected him and all his workers. Oh and my wife is such a nice person when she talks to people and they respond to this.

[Gonsalviz]

Don't even count on a good job even you get foreign bulders. Thais still do all the work. My house was completed but it has electrical problems, trim falling down, plumbing problems (lots), roof leaks, the granite floors looks like major amateurs did it, gutter leaks, paint peels outside and light switching that is laughable.

All of these items have been brought to the builders attention. Some of the items, he has no intention of correcting He has sent them out to repair some of the items but nothing has actually been corrected. There is still 1 more year of his supposed warranty but I have given up on calling him. The last time I called was over 3 months aga and I have no reply. Since nothing gets repaired anyhow, I suppose it is pointless to call again.

This house cost me 3.5 million Baht and I still have to rectify the problems.