I don't have a degree but I believe I can teach...

[lostinisaan]

Thats a big assumption. Many people who do not have degrees could have attained them if they had chosen to earlier in life. They just made other choices based upon their circumstances at the time.

Using that same logic I am better than most of you because I have a masters degree.

Is that a rhetorical question?

[brucetefl]

Huh? Drop out of school at the age of 12?

Huh?

Who is talking about people who dropped out of school at the age of 12?

I am talking about intelligent, expreinced people who, for various reasons, did not get a university degree.

Back a few years ago, when I was running TESOL courses, we had lots of IT people coming through. They did not finish university (like that slacker, Bill gates and that other one, Steve Jobs) but had been quite successful getting Microsoft training for over a decade. But its not a degree.

Employing a teacher with a degree, as opposed to one without, has 2x primary benefits to education providers.

1/ The education provider is assured that the teacher has a certain level of academic ability. This doesn't necessarily put them above all of the non degree holders, but it gives an assurance to the education provider that the teacher has at least reached a certain standard, which sets them above "some" of the non degree holders.

2/ At an academic institution, the institution wants to inspire students towards achieving success in their academic goals. The teachers at that institution are the role models which guide the students towards those goals, and help to give them inspiration. A teacher who has at least achieved some of those academic goals, will be a better role model (for these goals) than someone who hasn't.

If, for example, a teacher dropped out of school at the age of 12, how are they meant to inspire students towards working towards those academic goals?

Will they say, "You should just drop out of school now, life will be fine, you don't need to go to university or even to finish high school, education is a waste of time. Look at me, I never went to university, but I've still got a good job"?

Or maybe they'll say "Make sure you study hard, because otherwise you might end up having to work as an English teacher like me". Would either of these be a potential role model? Would a teacher who never even finished high school be respected by the students, and would they be an appropriate role model?

The quality of teaching from someone with, or without, a degree isn't dictated by whether they hold a degree or not. Their English proficiency, experience, relevant educational experience and personality are much more important. However, schools aren't just employing teachers to teach, they're employing teachers as role models, and that's why they want a degree.

That's also why they want teachers to dress well, not drink to excess, not to smoke or do drugs, be in good personal health/fitness, to be punctual, to not have a disagreeable or dishonest personality and to not have a criminal record. As they want teachers to embody everything which they would like their students to become, and these are all generally considered to be negative characteristics.

Of course, living up to all of these is a difficult task, so they're usually happy so long as their teachers don't do these in public, or at least not in front of the students. Likewise they often hire someone and then only later find out that the teacher wasn't what they expected, based on their CV and interview.

[up-country_sinclair]

I hope all of those on this thread who are contemplating breaking Thai law have also read all the other recent threads on this forum about the immigration crackdown.

Get legal or go to Thai jail.

Or maybe you'll just get blacklisted from entering the country for 5 years.

[brucetefl]

I hope all of you know that lightning could strike you at any time. Or a meteor could just fall on you!

By the way, I was driving around Bangkok last night and I noticed Nana and Soi Cowboy weere closed and guards at the entrances because... well prostitution is against the law in Thailand you know.

I threw a cheese and pork sausage in the microwave a few minutes ago and saw an immigration officer taking my picture through the window. I realized I had broken the law so I did not bother to clean my dish. I better wait for a thai to do that. Otherwise its off to immigration jail for me!

Until one person actually goes to jail or is even fined I think its probably not something any of us really needs to worry about. Because no one has yet to give me a first or even second-hand account of that EVER happening.

Do not use fake documents. THAT can get you in big trouble,

DO NOT overstay your visa.

Do not use or sell drugs.

These things can get you into trouble.

From (apparently) everyone's experience, teaching English without a B visa and work permit will not.

That might change! Next week they may make it a big issue. Thats a real risk. But as of now, its NEVER been a real problem.

Edited July 9, 2014 by brucetefl

[inutil]

a little qualifier though is missing from that...

'currently'.

Its 'unlikely' to change, but stranger things have happened at sea

[brewsterbudgen]

I hope all of you know that lightning could strike you at any time. Or a meteor could just fall on you!

By the way, I was driving around Bangkok last night and I noticed Nana and Soi Cowboy weere closed and guards at the entrances because... well prostitution is against the law in Thailand you know.

I don't think so!

[isawasnake]

I think the qualifications to become a teacher here are too low. Now, people are saying that the standards are not low enough? This is not rocket science, if you went to college, you are a lot more likely to be able to spell correctly, you are more likely to know so many things that an average person may not know. I don't really care either way, but asking for a 4 year degree is a very low standard.

[Scott]

One off-topic post deleted. Please stay on topic.

[brucetefl]

In many ways I agree.

But shouldn't the standards have something to do with teaching? Not just the ability to complete a 4-year degree in ANY major?

I think the qualifications to become a teacher here are too low. Now, people are saying that the standards are not low enough? This is not rocket science, if you went to college, you are a lot more likely to be able to spell correctly, you are more likely to know so many things that an average person may not know. I don't really care either way, but asking for a 4 year degree is a very low standard.

[wolfmanjack]

Go as an English advisor or a teaching assistance,,,,..... you can get a work permit with help from the right school...I know plenty of teachers here who have degrees but they arnt interested in work permits.......people are happy to work under the radar and get cash in hand,,,,...having a work permit can cause havoc with your visas .....good luck to you...

I tried to get a work permit as both of these and they would not allow it. I even tried to get one as a tutor and they said not without a degree.

[wolfmanjack]

I have a friend, an American guy who's lived in and out of Thailand for nearly 40 years, Masters degree, fluent in speaking reading and writing Thai. Been married to the same Thai woman for over 30 years.

He claims that Thailand has had no complete overhaul in the government since Rama 1, and that, therefore, there are laws that contradict almost every other law.

I'm not sure if he's 100% serious or just 50% serious, but we certainly all know that there are many many laws in Thailand selectively enforced. That's not going to change anytime soon despite the rantings of a few people on these forums.

Thais tend to be very pragmatic. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I bring my own reasons behind the actions of others, but I think sometimes Thai administrators the same way. They realize it's a rule that you need to have a degree to hire A foreign English teacher, but I think they realize that's kind of dumb rule. So they do it anyway.

Just to let you know how little many Thais know about this field, about seven years ago I sat next to the permanent Sec. of education at a dinner. At that time I was still very involved in TEFL international. We began talking and I explained to her what I did. At that time the second most important person in the ministry of education had never heard of a TESOL certificate course. Not just my course, TEFL international, but any course of its kind.

thailand is not the only place that has the problem of adding new laws without removing old laws.

My home town has a law that you can shoot native american indians if there are 3 or more on the sidewalk because they are then a warparty.

[wolfmanjack]

Should an unqualified teacher be allowed to teach any more than an unqualified Doctor or car mechanic doing those jobs, I don't think so. Unfortunately you will have no problem finding work, hence the very poor standard of English in Thailand. Get a degree, teaching qualifications, experience and then come to Thailand to teach, if you love the place so much it should not be too difficult.

Not having a degree does NOT make one unqualified to do a job. I was lucky enough to be able to get my nursing registration before the morons made it a degree entry level occupation and did it for 26 years. Now hardly anyone wnats to be a nurse, of course, as the pay is not commensurate with a degree level profession.

.

So are calling the Thai authorities 'morons' for wanting qualified teachers? Sorry to burst your bubble but not having a degree DOES make you unqualified to teach here. Of course it is ignored which is something hopefully the junta will try and stop. Thai kids deserve better than anyone with a white face thinking they can teach English, they can't despite argument that teachers are born and not made, training to teach and a degree are, and should be mandatory. The days of sex tourists, failed no hoper falangs and gap students becoming 'teachers' here is something that is hopefully coming to an end.

'Sorry to burst your bubble but not having a degree DOES make you unqualified to teach here."

Sorry to burst your bubble but i think you are totally wrong. i agree with the people saying that a NES (or a non native that has the pronunciation down pat) is necessary for the students to learn speak and understand english.

i will use myself as an example. I have taught both of my kids how to speak english. I am 3 credits short of a degree in economics but i maintain that my university experience has no bearing whatsoever on my ability to teach how to speak english.

i have taught both of my children how to read write and speak english by giving them vocabulary to memorize since they were 5 years old. Something that I have not seen from their schools. I have also taught them and continue to teach them how to pronounce the words according to websters english. no V pronouncef as a w and pronouncing the as the instead of deh etc.

As far as I am concerned the last 12 years experience of teaching my own children makes me more qualified that any educated idiot that simply has managed to obtain a degree in american history or underwater basket weaving.

To prove my point my daughter passed he ONET with a 95 in English giving her the highest score in her school. the questions she missed are ones that did not make sense even to me let alone a 12 year old. do you think that she accomplished that with the teaching of the thai English teachers only?

Edited July 11, 2014 by wolfmanjack

[wolfmanjack]

After they clamp down on those working illegally, the authorities should make a home country criminal background check mandatory for obtaining a work permit for teaching school age children. I believe as it stands now, this is selectively applied.

Thailand needs to keep the unqualified, the criminals and the paedophiles out of its classrooms. And the best way to do that is enforce the laws.

I had to submit a home country police report to get my work permit to be a managing director of a wood manufacturing company 14 years ago. Has things changed so much since then?

[wolfmanjack]

How does a degree in Economics help one to be a more effective English teacher? I'm not trying to put down people with degrees in economics. I have a degree in economics. I just don't think it made me a better English teacher. Yes, it shows that I had the persistence to finish a four-year degree and write papers and take exams. But taking a four week TESOL certificate course made me a much more effective teacher.

It probably will. Not directly, but indirectly, as I lined out in the bottom half of my post #102.

It will not mean you'll be a better teacher than anyone lacking a degree, it's no guarantee you'll be a great teacher at all.

But the probability of you being in the upper percentile of all the people taking that TEFL/TESOL and starting teaching is much higher for those qualities you listed above.

The only people that go to university that gain a better understanding of english than what they gained in high school are those that study a degree that has to do with english. A degree in english does not do it nor does a degree in economics or education for that matter.

A degree in teaching english such as a major in english with a minor in education or vise versa would do it but how many have this? And of those that do have it how many would be willing to teach in thailand for 18,000 a month (the amount the school here is paying)? Actyually the highest paid teacher at my kids school is getting 23,000 per month and he has a degree in math plus has passed the thai tests.

[wolfmanjack]

How does a degree in Economics help one to be a more effective English teacher? I'm not trying to put down people with degrees in economics. I have a degree in economics. I just don't think it made me a better English teacher. Yes, it shows that I had the persistence to finish a four-year degree and write papers and take exams. But taking a four week TESOL certificate course made me a much more effective teacher.

It probably will. Not directly, but indirectly, as I lined out in the bottom half of my post #102.

It will not mean you'll be a better teacher than anyone lacking a degree, it's no guarantee you'll be a great teacher at all.

But the probability of you being in the upper percentile of all the people taking that TEFL/TESOL and starting teaching is much higher for those qualities you listed above.

You are insulting everyone without a degree with that statement. For myself, I had to get a job when I left school, as there was no one to support me for 4 years and loans weren't available like now. When I left school, few people went to uni, but the country managed all right. I have had 3 careers in my life, and never needed a degree for any of them, though the ( uni educated ) powers that be have succunbed to the erroneous argument that degrees are necessary- an outright falsehood, and of benefit mainly to universities and the banks.

Pity the facts don't back you up. It is well known amongst old school nurses that the new ones with a degree are not as good as the hospital trained ones, because their training was mainly theory and a little practical, versus hospital trained nurses having a lot of practical experience.

Some employers won't employ people with a degree, because many have no practical skills, commonsense or problem solving ability. Of course people with a degree will deny that, but they would to justify spending 4 years obtaining a piece of paper that in many cases now has absolutely no value when it comes to obtaining a job.

I have to agree. i would rather have a worker with experience instead of one with a degree and no experience.

As a matter of fact my economics professor told me that whatever company that hired my in economics will tell me to forget about what i learned at university because they are going to teach me the way they want it done.

Edited July 11, 2014 by wolfmanjack

[TeeKay]

Hi, I wanted to share my situation and hear people's opinions on it.

I have recently become inspired to become an English teacher. I believe I have a lot to offer and am preparing to start a CELTA (With a YL extension). My problem is I don't have a degree. I need to know how much of a problem this is going to be. I love Thailand and would love to teach there. I am also considering studying for my CELTA there. What obstacles am I likely to face?

I believe I am proficient enough to positively contribute to the learning experience. I know I will work hard and be a good teacher - I have experience in a British Primary school and I also taught English to some 5 year-olds in a school near Krabi. I fell in love with being a teacher that day. My family business has been accommodating foreign language students, so in a way i've been giving informal English lessons my whole life. I have enjoyed each and every time I've had the opportunity to teach someone language and it just feels like a natural calling for me. I also pick up new languages quickly and having already learnt some Thai will seriously consider an ED Visa and Thai language course. I am also considering beginning an Open University degree. How would these two options affect my situation?

I would like to start in Thailand but would like to be able to teach in other countries too. How realistic are my dreams? Should I just give up now or does anyone think they are possible?

Unfortunately you need the creds.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[theguyfromanotherforum]

The only people that go to university that gain a better understanding of english than what they gained in high school are those that study a degree that has to do with english. A degree in english does not do it nor does a degree in economics or education for that matter.

You are completely wrong.

[brucetefl]

At least in America, where general education is up to 50% of your university education, I think most people do gain certain English skills especially writing research papers.

Edited July 11, 2014 by brucetefl

[wolfmanjack]

 

 

The only people that go to university that gain a better understanding of english than what they gained in high school are those that study a degree that has to do with english. A degree in english does not do it nor does a degree in economics or education for that matter.

 

 

 

You are completely wrong.

 

That is your opinion.

 

My opinion is that I am not wrong.

 

There are plenty of teachers in the USA that have all of the necessary degrees and have passed the tests to be certified teachers that are lousy teachers.

[wolfmanjack]

At least in America, where general education is up to 50% of your university education, I think most people do gain certain English skills especially writing research papers.  

I learned everything I knew about writing research papers in high school. Nothing extra learned at university as far as that was concerned. Maybe those that think a university degree in under water basket weaving makes you more qualified to teach english are used to being around people that did not learn english in high school.

 

What I did learn at university was to find out what the professors views were on a the subject I was writing about and then regurgitate those views. That always generated a higher grade than actually doing research and coming to our own conclusions.

 

For example I was taking American history during the same quarter that I was taking economic history. I had to write a paper in both classes on the causes of the civil war. I ended up turning in the same paper in both classes. I received a D on my paper in american history and an A in the economic history class. The professors had differing opinions on the cause of the same war and graded the paper according to their own point of view.

[brucetefl]

I think it depends on the high school.  Mine was pretty pathetic.

[Scott]

This thread is not about the US.   Please stay on topic.

 

[luvyatoomatch]

I will agree that a degree from a Thai university is not as valuable as one from a US/UK university but, all things considered, you would have to be a fool to take the advice to return home to get your B. ED before teaching in Thailand

 

 

And get a degree from your institution, while working illegally on an Ed visa. That's being a fool in my eyes. 

[AnotherOneAmerican]

What I did learn at university was to find out what the professors views were on a the subject I was writing about and then regurgitate those views. That always generated a higher grade than actually doing research and coming to our own conclusions.

I was going to write that!

[attrayant]

I think the qualifications to become a teacher here are too low. Now, people are saying that the standards are not low enough? This is not rocket science, if you went to college, you are a lot more likely to be able to spell correctly, you are more likely to know so many things that an average person may not know. I don't really care either way, but asking for a 4 year degree is a very low standard. 

You're missing the point that Bruce and a lot of others are making. Yes, if you go degree fishing, the balance of your catch will be reasonably bright people. You'll probably also get a few losers. The point is, tight restrictions makes a double-edged sword, and you'll lose many potentially gifted people just because they aren't degree holders. The best solution would simply to allow some degree of flexibility, instead of rigidly defined policies. I'd like to see employers empowered to evaluate their own applicants and make the call on who is and isn't qualified. The government has no business sticking its nose in (WRT non-gov schools, of course). Edited July 17, 2014 by attrayant

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I think the qualifications to become a teacher here are too low. Now, people are saying that the standards are not low enough? This is not rocket science, if you went to college, you are a lot more likely to be able to spell correctly, you are more likely to know so many things that an average person may not know. I don't really care either way, but asking for a 4 year degree is a very low standard.

You're missing the point that Bruce and a lot of others are making. Yes, if you go degree fishing, the balance of your catch will be reasonably bright people. You'll probably also get a few losers. The point is, tight restrictions makes a double-edged sword, and you'll lose many potentially gifted people just because they aren't degree holders. The best solution would simply to allow some degree of flexibility, instead of rigidly defined policies. I'd like to see employers empowered to evaluate their own applicants and make the call on who is and isn't qualified. The government has no business sticking its nose in (WRT non-gov schools, of course).

Unfortunately, many Thai schools, if given the choice, end up employing the cheapest and most attractive (white skin and young) applicants.
You can't trust the schools to recruit based on teaching ability.

[attrayant]

Drat; you've found the fatal flaw in free market mechanics.

[kimamey]

 

I hate the argument of someone being "unqualified" just because they dont have a university degree. This is absolutely ridiculous. Just because you studied political science, art history, marketing, or whatever DOES NOT mean you are a better/more qualified English teacher than someone who does not have a degree.... How can anyone even begin to argue this point?  

 

I also hate that schools will hire Germans, French, Greeks, Arabs or whoever over a native speaker JUST because they have a degree.... Absolutely ridiculous. 

 

But hey, its the rules, Thailand says to be qualified to teach the ABCs to 5 year olds, you have to have a degree. Otherwise they will hire a German or a Thai over you.

 

Almost as ridiculous as trying to argue someone can simply be a teacher of English just because they happen to be a NES.

 

Teaching is a profession.

 

 

True but having a degree in accountancy doesn't mean you can teach but I know someone employed as a teacher on that basis.

 

I did a TEFL course in the UK about 20 months ago partly because I'd been asked on several occasions to teach here and  wanted to have an idea of what's involved although the difficulty of getting a work permit for anything other than full time has stopped me up to now. The course was 100 hours online which was appalling and 20 hours over 2 days being taught by a guy who'd just come back from 10 years of teaching in Thailand. That was much better. One thing it did show me was that teaching is more difficult than it looks.

 

I do think that teaching a class of 30 would be a lot different than just helping with pronunciation in a small group which is what I've been asked to do. I have actually done that elsewhere but although I've never dealt with a big class I'm guessing that's a lot more challenging.

 

Before I came here I worked in the UK with dental surgeons from all over the world including some who taught at well known teaching hospitals. They all have degrees and it's amazing how bad at the job many of them were and it got worse over the years.

[brucetefl]

I go back to my initial idea of requiring all teachers that do not have degrees in education or an education related field, whether they have other degrees or not, teach as volunteers for a certain amount of time in Thai government schools.  Perhaps make the minimum qualification a certificate course.

 

 The first month in the school they simply assist the Thai teacher.

 

 The second month of the school they Teach a certain number of classes while being observed by the Thai teacher.

 

 The third month they teach a full schedule with no assistance.

 

 If they complete this internship they should be allowed to teach legally in Thailand.  It's far cheaper than getting a degree, especially got home works ridiculously expensive, it would benefit Thai schools and even the teachers there, and it would, as they say, Separate the wheat from the chaff.

[thaibeachlovers]

I go back to my initial idea of requiring all teachers that do not have degrees in education or an education related field, whether they have other degrees or not, teach as volunteers for a certain amount of time in Thai government schools.  Perhaps make the minimum qualification a certificate course.

 

 The first month in the school they simply assist the Thai teacher.

 

 The second month of the school they Teach a certain number of classes while being observed by the Thai teacher.

 

 The third month they teach a full schedule with no assistance.

 

 If they complete this internship they should be allowed to teach legally in Thailand.  It's far cheaper than getting a degree, especially got home works ridiculously expensive, it would benefit Thai schools and even the teachers there, and it would, as they say, Separate the wheat from the chaff.

And, will they be issued a B visa and a work permit while volunteering"?