What REALLY happens when Immigration inspect a school

[arjunadawn]

Ajunadawn....

Huh?

I LOVE CAPS

lol

Actually this thread is here to allow people, dozens, hundreds, THOUSANDS of people to contradict me. I will then slink away quietly after admitting my personal experience is incorrect.

But GUESS WHAT (including caps just to be annoying now hehe) it seems I was correct. So far not a single (see how nice I was to avoid caps there???) poster on this forum has had first or second hand experience with this happening. And a lot of people have viewed this thread.

So sorry, its your logic that needs a bit of a wake up call.

OP, you might incidentally be correct about this or that but your comments are wholly supposition, generalizations, and faulty reasoning. You make an observation based on the immediate event in your world that you experience, extrapolate that into a universal truth about teaching & immigration, then try to collect others to see your conclusion? You have no idea about teaching/immigration stats. Following your reasoning is dizzying.

Quite frankly, your a mess of shouting (see CAPS), defensiveness, and false logic. Good luck with your teaching.

I will step back and allow the masses to muse in your drama.

[brucetefl]

...and unable to contradict my initial hypothesis.

All I really did was use the Scientific Method.

I constructed a hypothesis "Teachers do not actually get fined or deported for working under tourist/EDU visas" and sent it out to the world to prove or disprove.

After five days and no contradictory evidence (first or second person accounts of teachers being fined or deported) my hypothesis is holding up very well.

I am not sure why that would anger or upset you.

Ajunadawn....

Huh?

I LOVE CAPS

lol

Actually this thread is here to allow people, dozens, hundreds, THOUSANDS of people to contradict me. I will then slink away quietly after admitting my personal experience is incorrect.

But GUESS WHAT (including caps just to be annoying now hehe) it seems I was correct. So far not a single (see how nice I was to avoid caps there???) poster on this forum has had first or second hand experience with this happening. And a lot of people have viewed this thread.

So sorry, its your logic that needs a bit of a wake up call.

OP, you might incidentally be correct about this or that but your comments are wholly supposition, generalizations, and faulty reasoning. You make an observation based on the immediate event in your world that you experience, extrapolate that into a universal truth about teaching & immigration, then try to collect others to see your conclusion? You have no idea about teaching/immigration stats. Following your reasoning is dizzying.

Quite frankly, your a mess of shouting (see CAPS), defensiveness, and false logic. Good luck with your teaching.

I will step back and allow the masses to muse in your drama.

[up-country_sinclair]

Actually this thread is here to allow people, dozens, hundreds, THOUSANDS of people to contradict me. I will then slink away quietly after admitting my personal experience is incorrect.

But GUESS WHAT (including caps just to be annoying now hehe) it seems I was correct. So far not a single (see how nice I was to avoid caps there???) poster on this forum has had first or second hand experience with this happening. And a lot of people have viewed this thread.

1. While "a lot of people have viewed this thread", not that many have actually posted on it, and I'd hope you'd agree that number is not a representative sample. In fact, you've made a third of all the posts on this thread.

2. With all due respect to the the owner of this site, there are other internet message boards that are specifically for English language teachers in Thailand. I'd be curious to see what the response would be on those boards. If you're really interested in finding out about first hand experiences, that would be a good place to start.

3. Just because you claim not to have heard any first hand experiences of illegal teaches being fined (on or off the books), jailed or deported doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

4. If I had ever been fined, jailed or deported I wouldn't be posting about it on the internet.

Edited July 10, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[ukguyinthai]

OP, you might incidentally be correct about this or that but your comments are wholly supposition, generalizations, and faulty reasoning. You make an observation based on the immediate event in your world that you experience, extrapolate that into a universal truth about teaching & immigration, then try to collect others to see your conclusion? You have no idea about teaching/immigration stats. Following your reasoning is dizzying.

Quite frankly, your a mess of shouting (see CAPS), defensiveness, and false logic. Good luck with your teaching.

So Mr. Psycho analyzer do you have any facts on the OP original question? Or have any constructive points to add. Or is it your job to police personalities. -

[brucetefl]

Posted, yes. But if you have no contradictory evidence then you would not post.

Correct?

No offense, up country, but you are one of the champions of the "work without all proper documentation and you will be deported" club. Certainly if you had any first hand knowledge you would post it.

Edited July 10, 2014 by brucetefl

[up-country_sinclair]

Posted, yes. But if you have no contradictory evidence then you would not post.

Correct?

No, not correct.

Are you unable to fathom that someone who had been fined, jailed or deported wouldn't want to advertise that fact on the forum.

And I'll post it again. You yourself posted that there are "tens of thousands" of teachers working illegally in Thailand. What percentage of those do you think have viewed this thread?

[up-country_sinclair]

No offense, up country, but you are one of the champions of the "work without all proper documentation and you will be deported" club. Certainly if you had any first hand knowledge you would post it.

I have never broken Thai immigration law, so no, I don't have first hand knowledge.

I also have no financial stake in playing down the risks inherent to breaking immigration law.

[brucetefl]

Yes I'm sure people operating under a pseudonym on a forum are so embarrassed and would never ever tell people that they had been fined or deported. The shame! LOL

You are kidding, right?

And all are asking for is any real eyewitness evidence. It doesn't have to be you. It could be someone that you actually know. But apparently no one even knows anyone that this is happened to. At the very least, although you won't admit it, it's a very rare occurrence.

Posted, yes. But if you have no contradictory evidence then you would not post.

Correct?

No, not correct.

Are you unable to fathom that someone who had been fined, jailed or deported wouldn't want to advertise that fact on the forum.

And I'll post it again. You yourself posted that there are "tens of thousands" of teachers working illegally in Thailand. What percentage of those do you think have viewed this thread?

[brucetefl]

I have been here 18 years and all of that time involved in some way with English teachers and English teaching. I have literally known THOUSANDS (love those caps) of teachers who have taught without proper documentation. I am probably one of the few who have actually been in a school as it was raided and was high enough in the leadership that I was actually with the director as she scrambled to get money to pay off immigration. So its not like I am a newbie with no basis for forming a strong opinion.

And because some of you might find interesting, let me tell you the circumstances behind that raid.

Two teachers have been employed and all of their documents have been submitted to Labor. However, the contracts have been signed almost a month before and so Labor asked the school to come in, take back all the documents and resubmit them with new contracts.

So for you that don't understand, these teachers had actually been legal because their documents had been in the hands of Department of Labor. But when those documents or returned they were no longer legal. The documents were no longer "in process".

As if by magic (heavy sarcasm there) late that afternoon immigration arrived at the school. Those two teachers were technically illegal. The director was asked for 80,000.

It would take a blind man not to see that this was all a cooperative effort between the Department of Labor and the Department of immigration. The moment those documents were returned to the school Labor called Immigration and told them to visit the school. I'm guessing they split the money.

I've been here a long time. Maybe I'm giving overly cynical. But could you blame me?

Edited July 10, 2014 by brucetefl

[brucetefl]

Nor do I! Much better to take a BA TESOL course and get a TCT exemption! THEN I make more money. See how that works?

I am just giving people real info based upon personal experience. Whether it fits my agenda or not.

No offense, up country, but you are one of the champions of the "work without all proper documentation and you will be deported" club. Certainly if you had any first hand knowledge you would post it.

I have never broken Thai immigration law, so no, I don't have first hand knowledge.

I also have no financial stake in playing down the risks inherent to breaking immigration law.

[Loaded]

Not until you graduate after 4 years of study. Until then, you encourage them to work on non-imm EDs. I guess that's what this thread is about - reassuring your 'students'.

Nor do I! Much better to take a BA TESOL course and get a TCT exemption! THEN I make more money. See how that works?

I am just giving people real info based upon personal experience. Whether it fits my agenda or not.

No offense, up country, but you are one of the champions of the "work without all proper documentation and you will be deported" club. Certainly if you had any first hand knowledge you would post it.

I have never broken Thai immigration law, so no, I don't have first hand knowledge.

I also have no financial stake in playing down the risks inherent to breaking immigration law.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Loaded

[brucetefl]

I guess you did not read any other threads about the BA TESOL (of course thats not surprising if it oes not interest you). We actually do not have many of our teachers on Education visas. Most get B visas and work permits with TCT waivers.

You guys like to accuse me of all kinds of crap without evidence. All I am trying to do is tell people the real scoop. It would seem you guys have more of an agenda than I do. Why make up crap about being fined and deported when it apparently never happens? Afraid someone better looking will steal your girl? There are others! lol

Not until you graduate after 4 years of study. Until then, you encourage them to work on non-imm EDs. I guess that's what this thread is about - reassuring your 'students'.

Nor do I! Much better to take a BA TESOL course and get a TCT exemption! THEN I make more money. See how that works?

I am just giving people real info based upon personal experience. Whether it fits my agenda or not.

No offense, up country, but you are one of the champions of the "work without all proper documentation and you will be deported" club. Certainly if you had any first hand knowledge you would post it.

I have never broken Thai immigration law, so no, I don't have first hand knowledge.

I also have no financial stake in playing down the risks inherent to breaking immigration law.

[Loaded]

nobody on this thread has made up 'crap' about being fined and deported.

a degree is needed to obtain a TCT waiver but your students don't have one yet, how do they obtain waivers?

not sure what the girlfriend comment relates to

this is a very strange thread

Edited July 10, 2014 by Loaded

[brucetefl]

The reason I created this thread (and it has been repeated at least three times if you read it) was in reaction to someone asking if they could volunteer as an English teacher at a small rural school near his home. He was immediately told by several posters that he would be risking fines and deportation if he volunteered there.

And as I mentioned in the thread, most likely he would become A very respected member of the community, be given fruit and food by local farmers, invited to a lot of parties, but certainly not fined and deported.

I'm just trying to figure out why some people are so willing to tell people things that simply aren't true. Of course, stealing their girlfriend was just tongue in cheek. But why would someone tell this person they would be fined and deported when it apparently never happens, even to teachers who are working professionally, not volunteering.

Edited July 10, 2014 by brucetefl

[brucetefl]

a degree is needed to obtain a TCT waiver but your students don't have one yet, how do they obtain waivers?

Don't ask me. All I know is its happening.

[arjunadawn]

...and unable to contradict my initial hypothesis.

All I really did was use the Scientific Method.

I constructed a hypothesis "Teachers do not actually get fined or deported for working under tourist/EDU visas" and sent it out to the world to prove or disprove.

After five days and no contradictory evidence (first or second person accounts of teachers being fined or deported) my hypothesis is holding up very well.

I am not sure why that would anger or upset you.

Ajunadawn....

Huh?

I LOVE CAPS

lol

Actually this thread is here to allow people, dozens, hundreds, THOUSANDS of people to contradict me. I will then slink away quietly after admitting my personal experience is incorrect.

But GUESS WHAT (including caps just to be annoying now hehe) it seems I was correct. So far not a single (see how nice I was to avoid caps there???) poster on this forum has had first or second hand experience with this happening. And a lot of people have viewed this thread.

So sorry, its your logic that needs a bit of a wake up call.

OP, you might incidentally be correct about this or that but your comments are wholly supposition, generalizations, and faulty reasoning. You make an observation based on the immediate event in your world that you experience, extrapolate that into a universal truth about teaching & immigration, then try to collect others to see your conclusion? You have no idea about teaching/immigration stats. Following your reasoning is dizzying.

Quite frankly, your a mess of shouting (see CAPS), defensiveness, and false logic. Good luck with your teaching.

I will step back and allow the masses to muse in your drama.

I see you've a few supporters; great. Even people in darkness prefer company. It is appalling watching a human create a drama in real time. No sir, you don't make sense, and you've no hypothesis. In your first page of posts others handily defeated whatever rumor drama crap you're peddling and still you weave drivel. Your a teacher? If I opened your post and your responses to a 7th grade logic class they'd tear you apart. Is that important? Only if your a teacher. That you've support here only reveals fools will follow a flute, no more.

[brucetefl]

Well I am not a teacher but I do know the difference between you're and your.

LOL

Add something to the discussion or go away. I do not care how you feel about me or my logic. But your inability to do anything but say that my logic is flawed speaks volumes.

SORRY I FOGOT TO USE CAPS!

Edited July 10, 2014 by brucetefl

[Eliot Rosewater]

The reason I created this thread (and it has been repeated at least three times if you read it) was in reaction to someone asking if they could volunteer as an English teacher at a small rural school near his home. He was immediately told by several posters that he would be risking fines and deportation if he volunteered there.

And as I mentioned in the thread, most likely he would become A very respected member of the community, be given fruit and food by local farmers, invited to a lot of parties, but certainly not fined and deported.

I'm just trying to figure out why some people are so willing to tell people things that simply aren't true. Of course, stealing their girlfriend was just tongue in cheek. But why would someone tell this person they would be fined and deported when it apparently never happens, even to teachers who are working professionally, not volunteering.

Just because the community would'nt turn him in does not mean the law is not being broken

It is against the law; full stop

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[brucetefl]

Um.... WE KNOW.

As is prostitution.

As is cooking if you have anything but a B visa and work permit.

As is washing your dishes if you have anything but a B visa and work permit.

As is doing laundry if you have anything but a B visa and work permit.

But that was another thread. This thread is about what happens if you are working professionally at a school without proper visa and WP and the school is raided.

The reason I created this thread (and it has been repeated at least three times if you read it) was in reaction to someone asking if they could volunteer as an English teacher at a small rural school near his home. He was immediately told by several posters that he would be risking fines and deportation if he volunteered there.

And as I mentioned in the thread, most likely he would become A very respected member of the community, be given fruit and food by local farmers, invited to a lot of parties, but certainly not fined and deported.

I'm just trying to figure out why some people are so willing to tell people things that simply aren't true. Of course, stealing their girlfriend was just tongue in cheek. But why would someone tell this person they would be fined and deported when it apparently never happens, even to teachers who are working professionally, not volunteering.

Just because the community would'nt turn him in does not mean the law is not being broken
It is against the law; full stop

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited July 10, 2014 by brucetefl

[Loaded]

stranger and stranger

[brucetefl]

How so?

stranger and stranger

[brucetefl]

Just so we are clear, here is what is NOT allowed if you do not have a work permit (except under very special circumstances):

Work: engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

So you cannot exert energy (walking, standing, BREATHING????) or use knowledge (reading a book????)

Hey, its the law. No breathing until you get that work permit!

Otherwise you will be constantly looking over your shoulder!

Edited July 10, 2014 by brucetefl

[Docno]

The main reason I started this thread was in response to the guy who asked if he should volunteer teach.

At a rural school.

Where no other teacher could even speak English.

At the request of the director.

And he was flooded with responses about how he would be deported and about how illegal it was.

Things may be changing for English teachers. The only change received so far is that there will be no more visa runs. That's not difficult to get around.

But the scare mongers on this board giving absolutely inaccurate information astound me.

The reason I bring this up is because here we are on the "Teaching English in Thailand" forum and I've only heard of a few people ever getting "caught" teaching English without a work permit. And this is over 18 years experience in Thailand. So let's make one point very clear: these kinds of raids and checks are extremely rare. I think it would be fair to say that they almost never happen.

So with that established, let's discuss what does happen on the rare occasion that immigration visit to school and checks everyone for the legal status.

If immigration finds teachers in the school that do not have all documentation for legal work status, they put those teachers in a room and told him to sit down and wait. They then have a private discussion with the director of the school. Perhaps negotiation is the better term. The school director is told to get together some sum of money as a fine. The director will try to negotiate and eventually a figure will be agreed upon and that money will be handed over to the immigration officer. Once the director does a bank run, the teachers are then told they are free to go.

That's it.

Now on to the myth of deportation:

In all of my time in Thailand I have never heard of anyone being deported for working as an English teacher illegally. I've heard of a few teachers being deported, but it's always associated with something else that they've done, overstayed their visas by years, broken some significant law, or managed to get a very powerful enemy.

Does anyone else have any examples of English teachers being deported in the time they've lived in Thailand? Yet we all know there are tens of thousands of teachers teaching illegally here in the kingdom. Isn't it therefore pretty obvious that teachers teaching illegally do not get deported? Or even in any real trouble?

Every few days someone posts that they want to teach English in Thailand but for some reason, like a lack of a university degree, it's unlikely they can easily get legal status. And there are always dozens of posters warning about the dangers of deportation. One of the recent threads warned of possibly being deported for teaching as a volunteer in a small rural school.

Can we all agree that this is just a myth? A law that is obviously almost never enforced in Thailand.

You seem very confident about all this, but it's based on past experience. There's a new sheriff in town, and things have been changing fast. Whatever their real motivation might be, it appears that the coup-makers are intent on cleaning up the streets and getting people to do things by the book. They're clamping down on border runs, illegal taxis, buses, trains, and automobiles. Etc. Don't be so sure that they're only after certain 'kinds' of foreigners, such as Chinese and Russians. The stricter enforcement around border-runners and over-stayers shows that farangs are nothing special. Give them time. If they (the powers that now be) are aware that English language schools are doing dodgy things re teachers and student visas, there will likely be more visits from Immigration. The game has changed, and no-one should be complacent ...

I understand. But my only point is that it may just be a matter of time before the new regime gets around at looking at what's going on in the language schools. They've done a lot more than just clamp down on visa runs

[Docno]

IF THEY BECOME AWARE?

The Thai language schools are BLATANT in their selling of Education visas. have you seen some of their advertising?

STAY IN THAILAND

GET A LEGAL VISA

NO MORE VISA RUNS

study thai (DISCOUNT IF YOU DO NOT EVEN BOTHER TO SHOW UP FOR CLASS)

The reason I bring this up is because here we are on the "Teaching English in Thailand" forum and I've only heard of a few people ever getting "caught" teaching English without a work permit. And this is over 18 years experience in Thailand. So let's make one point very clear: these kinds of raids and checks are extremely rare. I think it would be fair to say that they almost never happen.

So with that established, let's discuss what does happen on the rare occasion that immigration visit to school and checks everyone for the legal status.

If immigration finds teachers in the school that do not have all documentation for legal work status, they put those teachers in a room and told him to sit down and wait. They then have a private discussion with the director of the school. Perhaps negotiation is the better term. The school director is told to get together some sum of money as a fine. The director will try to negotiate and eventually a figure will be agreed upon and that money will be handed over to the immigration officer. Once the director does a bank run, the teachers are then told they are free to go.

That's it.

Now on to the myth of deportation:

In all of my time in Thailand I have never heard of anyone being deported for working as an English teacher illegally. I've heard of a few teachers being deported, but it's always associated with something else that they've done, overstayed their visas by years, broken some significant law, or managed to get a very powerful enemy.

Does anyone else have any examples of English teachers being deported in the time they've lived in Thailand? Yet we all know there are tens of thousands of teachers teaching illegally here in the kingdom. Isn't it therefore pretty obvious that teachers teaching illegally do not get deported? Or even in any real trouble?

Every few days someone posts that they want to teach English in Thailand but for some reason, like a lack of a university degree, it's unlikely they can easily get legal status. And there are always dozens of posters warning about the dangers of deportation. One of the recent threads warned of possibly being deported for teaching as a volunteer in a small rural school.

Can we all agree that this is just a myth? A law that is obviously almost never enforced in Thailand.

You seem very confident about all this, but it's based on past experience. There's a new sheriff in town, and things have been changing fast. Whatever their real motivation might be, it appears that the coup-makers are intent on cleaning up the streets and getting people to do things by the book. They're clamping down on border runs, illegal taxis, buses, trains, and automobiles. Etc. Don't be so sure that they're only after certain 'kinds' of foreigners, such as Chinese and Russians. The stricter enforcement around border-runners and over-stayers shows that farangs are nothing special. Give them time. If they (the powers that now be) are aware that English language schools are doing dodgy things re teachers and student visas, there will likely be more visits from Immigration. The game has changed, and no-one should be complacent ...

I'm assuming the advertising to which your referring is exclusively in English. You're assuming that the army mucky-mucks are reading ads in the English media.

[up-country_sinclair]

my only point is that it may just be a matter of time before the new regime gets around at looking at what's going on in the language schools. They've done a lot more than just clamp down on visa runs

You're absolutely correct. A person would have to be crazy to work illegally in the current climate.

Anyone saying "Hey, don't worry about it! It's Thailand!" is either ignorant of what's actually happening or has another motivation to lead unsuspecting members astray.

[brucetefl]

Do you know there have been 21 coups or coup attempts in Thailand in the last 100 years?

One coup or attempted coup every 5 years. And how much has changed? Exactly. Not much.

The military is trying to make friends now. If they raided the big English chains they would make a lot of people unhappy--school owners and parents of school students. probably not a good idea.

If they started raiding K-12 schools the reaction would be even worse.

Yes it could happen. But the odds are really against anything like that happening. you can argue that the Cambodian is taking away from a Thai worker or that the Russian is working with the mafia in Pattaya. But everyone wants native speakers to teach their kids english. And ASEAN is coming.

I know, Chicken Little, the sky is falling. I just do not see it.

But if they want a waiver, join my BA TESOL. All the better for me. PANIC EVERYONE PANIC!

lol

[aidenai]

But if they want a waiver, join my BA TESOL. All the better for me. PANIC EVERYONE PANIC!

lol

Why would somebody want to join your BA TESOL. It's you who's spreading the word that there's no risk at all in teaching without a work permit, i.e. university degree, provisional teaching, non-immigrant B visa, etc.

Waste of money and time to do your BA TESOL programme then, no?

[brucetefl]

DING DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!.

A few people constantly accuse me of posting things because of financial gain. Its just absolutely not true.

I just post reality and honesty. At least as I see and experience it.

Sure, I could list advantages of getting your BA in TESOL. But when I am here on the discussion forum my motivation is telling people how it really is. Thats why I think its these other guys who have agendas, because it isn't me (as you have pointed out).

But if they want a waiver, join my BA TESOL. All the better for me. PANIC EVERYONE PANIC!

lol

Why would somebody want to join your BA TESOL. It's you who's spreading the word that there's no risk at all in teaching without a work permit, i.e. university degree, provisional teaching, non-immigrant B visa, etc.

Waste of money and time to do your BA TESOL programme then, no?

Edited July 10, 2014 by brucetefl

[White Tiger]

The reason I bring this up is because here we are on the "Teaching English in Thailand" forum and I've only heard of a few people ever getting "caught" teaching English without a work permit. ......

If immigration finds teachers in the school that do not have all documentation for legal work status, ......

I've never heard of immigration raiding or visiting schools looking for teachers working without work permits.

In any event, I understand immigration police visas; and the labour office polices work permits.

So, as I understand it:

• if the authorities were looking for foreign teachers working without a work permit, it would be a team sent out from the area labour office that visited the school. (I've never heard of this happening either by the way - a visit to check for work permits). I have been working at schools when we have had visits from staff from the area labour office and where I have been introduced to them, but I do not know what the purpose of their visit was - as far as I am aware the visit was not to check if I or any of my colleagues had work permits because we were not asked to produce them.

• if the authorities were looking for foreign teachers working at schools but holding the wrong type of visa - then it would be a team from the immigration office that visited the school. I've never heard of this happening and I have no experience of this happening. I suspect immigration have enough work to do without adding to their workload by visiting schools to carry out spot check on the passports of foreign workers.

Hope these thoughts are of some help.

[Scott]

Let's stick to the topic please.

Let's also remember to keep political commentary to a minimum. But that said, the military anywhere is not necessarily interested in winning friends. That's true in a lot of countries. The present Junta will not be enforcing anything, they will be telling people in immigration to enforce the laws.

Again, the military depends a lot on the love of country and that often comes with some anti-foreign sentiment. How strong that anti-foreign sentiment is and how long it last varies greatly.

The Thai military has a little bit more history with running the country than some country's military, however.