Bank account upon death

[Jip99]

I have just asked an Australian bank the same thing and even with a joint account, they would want 'proof of death' to allow all the funds to go to one of the account holders. Proof of death I assume is a death cert. Doubt a pic of a dead body with name pinned to chest would do, but it might do in Thai

Rubbish my sister emptied and "closed" a joint account I had with my mother using a "Power of Attorney" When I complained to ANZ about the ability to close the account since mum and I needed 100 point ID check to open it, their response was our policy, if you want to know what happened ask your sister.

A PoA ceases on death.

If mother was still alive (and an either ti sign mandate existed) then your sister could legitimately close the account. After death the balance would pass to you by succession.

[opalred]

why do people worry so much about money when die use it now to help people in need and enjoy the results as all it does when die people fight over it and usually nasty and destroys familys my father had a lot of money and told him to give to blind dog people to save alot of problems

[JimGant]

NO DOUBT all the paperwork that the bank will produce will be in Thai. So will all of the other paperwork from the Amphur, the death Certificate, release papers, etc.

And what paperwork is that? -- application for a new account to hold the inherited proceeds? No more foreboding than opening any new account at a Thai bank. And the death certificate? It probably says something like "he's dead." Not too many "maybes" with death certificates -- in any language.

And this is not an Amphur (registered) Will -- it was self-prepared.

No, in Nancy's situation, where the banker has said he'll honor the Will, what's left for the lawyers? But, I guess if the testator had hired you to draft the Will (5000 baht), you would not have spoken to the bank manager about avoiding the court. Instead, you would have queued up for a court date to validate the choice of Nancy as the testator's executor. And what fee would that entail? Would you then have pressed for probate of this simple Will? And what would that fee be?

[BlackJack]

When I was at Uni one statement really stuck with me

You only know about it when you have done it

If someone wants to PM me then I'm OK with that

however I will not be arguing the minutia of Thai Law with trolls

[JimGant]

however I will not be arguing the minutia of Thai Law with trolls

Ah, yes. The arrogance of someone caught out. But, where I'm from, we call them ambulance chasers, not trolls.

So, if a simple web search can debunk the myth that named executors need be vetted by the court (See Thai Civil and Commercial Code, Section 171x), just why are Thai law firms advertising that just such a vetting is required?

Ah, maybe this self-licking ice cream cone factoid can explain. This is from one of the many other threads on Wills:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/599413-amphur-will/page-3

Article #67

Interesting that my Thai Will, written by a Thai law firm, states: "I appoint my partner xxx Thai ID number yyyy to be the executor of all my assets in Thailand. As my executor she will apply to the court to be appointed as the administrator of my assets and to distribute my assets according to my Will under Thai law" (partially paraphrased in the interests of brevity). The Will seems to dictate or at least describe the path the executor will take and no mention is made of possibly using the Amphur as an option to short circuit things.

If Thai law requires executors named in Wills to be vetted by the court (which it doesn't), why mention this in the Will? If such is the law, such a court visit is already prescribed..... But, of course, if Thai law does not require vetting by the court of the named executor .... putting it into the Will as a directive by the testator means the executor is obligated to follow this directive. So, in this situation, the testator has been snookered into a mandatory visit to the court by his executor. With, as we've seen from BlackJack, a probable 2-3 month wait to get a court date. Plus, of course, the fee (10,000 baht, says the writer of the above factoid).

Why do I have a feeling the above example of a lawyer written Will represents the standard.....even if "all my assets" consists of a single bank account.

Please feel free, per BlackJack's request, to PM him for answers. The world awaits.....

[BlackJack]

Jim

I find your personal attacks objectionable and draw to your attention the following http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

The USA Bill of Rights and your Constitutional Rights that you have ingrained into your posts do not exist in Thailand.

Thailand has very strict Liable and Defamation Laws.

So can you please stick to the subject and stop the personal attacks?

That being said. I suggest that you read this http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/618983-the-importance-of-preparing-a-will-in-thailand/

I could be wrong but I think hes the Boss of Thaivisa and I am fairly sure he wouldnt be posting false and misleading information about the Thai Courts and Legal procedings.

GFU

[JimGant]

Personal attacks? Trying to discern what is, and isn't, with Thai Wills is a valid discussion, including calling out any possible misrepresentations. But, unfortunately, it doesn't seem to lead to any definitive conclusions -- on this thread, or all the many others.

Let's review the bidding.

The OP asked a straightforward question:

Can I draw up a simple will leaving her EVERYTHING including bank accounts.

We've learned here (from Nancy and personchester), and on several other Will threads, that bank managers can and do make arrangements to follow Will instructions -- without the need to go to court. (But, however, your mileage may vary, depending on the bank manager.)

You then stepped in with what is apparently the lawyer firms' mantra:

OK heres the drum
The Executor has to be approved by the Thai court

All methods end up in court so that the Executor is approved by the Court - FULL STOP
it took 3 months to get it to court
now wait 2 weeks for the court to approve the Executor and another 2 weeks to hear any challenges to the Executor being appointed

Now, this may be true in many situations (but, as shown, not all). But, it is NOT required under Thai Civil and Commercial Code. Yes, your banker and land office manager may insist that your Will be run through the court, especially if this is what they're familiar with. So, be prepared for such, including hiring a lawyer to assist. But, for sure, don't make this a proviso of your Will, namely, if you have a lawyer draft your Will, make sure he doesn't add the clause: "I name Joe Blow my executor, who, upon my death, will apply to the Court to be named administrator of this Will" (or whatever similar verbage).

So, for the OP -- at least for his bank account -- do as Nancy and personchester (post #36) did: Ask your bank manager his or her procedures re your Will.

I find your personal attacks objectionable and draw to your attention the following http://www.thaivisa....tion=boardrules

Hmmm. My favorite is this: "Do not use ThaiVisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate,...."

That being said. I suggest that you read this http://www.thaivisa....ll-in-thailand/

I could be wrong but I think hes the Boss of Thaivisa and I am fairly sure he wouldnt be posting false and misleading information about the Thai Courts and Legal procedings.

That's a bizarre observation, as that's an 8 page thread that meanders all around what's what (and isn't) about Thai Wills. Nothing conclusive comes out of it, so what is and isn't false and misleading cannot be effectively determined. Even you and I have posts there.

A lot of lawyer stories in the thread started by George, that you quote. And this is my favorite: "I have a will (usually I update it once a year) signed by two witnesses and today I was told by a Thai lawyer that my will had to be registered [at the Amphur] or it would be null and void. She said she could get it all done for me for fee of 10,000 baht."

Groan......

Anyway, BlackJack, let's shake hands. And if you stop calling me a troll, I'll stop calling you a lawyer. Fair?

[BlackJack]

Jim

I find your personal attacks objectionable and draw to your attention the following http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

The USA Bill of Rights and your Constitutional Rights that you have ingrained into your posts do not exist in Thailand.

Thailand has very strict Liable and Defamation Laws.

So can you please stick to the subject and stop the personal attacks?

That being said. I suggest that you read this http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/618983-the-importance-of-preparing-a-will-in-thailand/

I could be wrong but I think hes the Boss of Thaivisa and I am fairly sure he wouldnt be posting false and misleading information about the Thai Courts and Legal procedings.

GFU

Jim

you missed the best part

GFU

youre smart

you can figure it out

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I received this answer today from the Standard Chartered main branch in Sathorn as to what they would require of my wife in the wake of my death, in order to access an account solely in my name (not a joint account). They said, wife still has to take an Amphur will to court.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/618983-the-importance-of-preparing-a-will-in-thailand/?p=8263542

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I would caution the OP to remember that any forum may guide you in the direction to go to get correct information, but do not rely completely on the information from a forum only.

This is an exchange I had with Bangkok Bank - my question is beneath the answer:

Bank Mail

Message from Customer Service

Date 08 Apr 2014 13:18:55

Subject RE: Send a Message - Other

Dear XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX,

Regarding you inquiry,normally the saving account no form as your request and please contact the homebranch for consult directly.

Best regards,

Bualuang ibanking

*****************************************************

Original Message :

Sawasdee krahp.

Does Bangkok Bank have a form I can execute which will designate a Thai citizen as beneficiary if I die?

Thank you

From everything I've ever read and been told at banks here, there is no Thai version of what we from the west would call a "beneficiary designation" being made with the bank for a particular account.

It seems, the only way to accomplish the intended result is through an executed Thai will OR having a joint account where the surviving party might be able to withdraw the funds before the bank can get fussy.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Re: Last Will Testament:

It does not require a court process ... the printed Testament page has to be brought to a lawyer's office and if the Testament is properly printed (or written) then the lawyer will confirm it by stamping and signing the page, and two of his employers will also sign to confirm as witnesses.

Fellows that can not print or write the correct outline of a "Last Will & Testament" should ask the lawyers to entirely do the print for them.

The applicants Testament should originally be printed (or written) in his home language, and must then be translated on a new page into the Thai language, the two pages have to be stamped and signed by the lawyer, and witnesses, and then have to be tied together like a small bundle to be presented when the time comes.

The approach you've outlined here is an interesting one... But..

1. it's not one I can ever recall being suggested in the wills threads here before.

2. it's not a method that I've ever read about in any Thai legal source relating to wills, or had recommended to me by any of the Thai bank staff I've discussed the topic with.

That leaves me wondering whether that approach is as reliable as you believe it to be.

[Jip99]

Re: Last Will Testament:

It does not require a court process ... the printed Testament page has to be brought to a lawyer's office and if the Testament is properly printed (or written) then the lawyer will confirm it by stamping and signing the page, and two of his employers will also sign to confirm as witnesses.

Fellows that can not print or write the correct outline of a "Last Will & Testament" should ask the lawyers to entirely do the print for them.

The applicants Testament should originally be printed (or written) in his home language, and must then be translated on a new page into the Thai language, the two pages have to be stamped and signed by the lawyer, and witnesses, and then have to be tied together like a small bundle to be presented when the time comes.

The approach you've outlined here is an interesting one... But..

1. it's not one I can ever recall being suggested in the wills threads here before.

2. it's not a method that I've ever read about in any Thai legal source relating to wills, or had recommended to me by any of the Thai bank staff I've discussed the topic with.

That leaves me wondering whether that approach is as reliable as you believe it to be.

I would tend to agree. Personchester has nothing better than if had drawn up the Will and had two witnesses sign his 'testament'. My effort, and the one at the lawyers, will finish up requiring court approval for probate purposes.

Going back to the bank accounts, I THINK that a joint account will pass to the survivor under same the rules of succession as in, say, the UK.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I too would be interesting to hear the outcome of Nancy L's dealing with the Thai bank she mentions above, and hope she'll mention when she gets a resolution which bank is providing the answer.

Unfortunately, the sad reality of Thailand is, even if one bank or one bank branch or one bank manager commits to something or claims it's their bank's policy, that seems to mean very little as to whether that same approach will or won't be followed on other days, by other managers, or by other branches or banks.

At best, the answer likely would be a suggestion of what might be possible.... but likely not much to rely on in our own individual circumstances with different banks/branches/managers.

So my intention is to do everything I can to prepare ahead of time, and make some arrangement for immediate access funds for my wife where I won't have to worry about the vagaries and timing of the Thai probate process.

And in the end, if she can work a deal with whomever may be our bank managers at that distant point in the future to release my accounts based on my death certificate and a properly executed will with her as the executor and sole beneficiary, that would be great. But if not, we'll at least be prepared to have the very simple Thai will go through a hopefully reasonably quick Thai Probate Court process.

[Jip99]

So my intention is to do everything I can to prepare ahead of time, and make some arrangement for immediate access funds for my wife where I won't have to worry about the vagaries and timing of the Thai probate process.

And in the end, if she can work a deal with whomever may be our bank managers at that distant point in the future to release my accounts based on my death certificate and a properly executed will with her as the executor and sole beneficiary, that would be great. But if not, we'll at least be prepared to have the very simple Thai will go through a hopefully reasonably quick Thai Probate Court process.

A perfect approach and recognition of the practical implications of dealing with institutions in Thailand.

I would certainly make sure that my wife had access to my ATM card/PIN and online banking password at the point of death.

This is the practical, rather than legal, advice I would give to anyone who wants their wife to have immediate access to cash (and potentially avoid her having to go to probate).

[naboo]

Hilarious!

Go to the Amphur, write a will, never speak to a lawyer, and by the looks of it you'll need to specify in the will that a lawyer never be allowed to get his/her grubby mitts on the estate.

I have never hired a lawyer in my life, biggest consequence was I lost an air conditioning unit that was supposed to be included in the purchase of a house. One of the lowest professions full of people trying to delay this, write a letter to confirm that, do whatever it takes to fill their miserable little job with mindless things they can charge their clients for.

[northernjohn]

I have just asked an Australian bank the same thing and even with a joint account, they would want 'proof of death' to allow all the funds to go to one of the account holders. Proof of death I assume is a death cert. Doubt a pic of a dead body with name pinned to chest would do, but it might do in Thai

Rubbish my sister emptied and "closed" a joint account I had with my mother using a "Power of Attorney" When I complained to ANZ about the ability to close the account since mum and I needed 100 point ID check to open it, their response was our policy, if you want to know what happened ask your sister.

A PoA ceases on death.

If mother was still alive (and an either ti sign mandate existed) then your sister could legitimately close the account. After death the balance would pass to you by succession.

I was told today that my joint bank account in the case of my death can be held by the bank because to empty i9t they would need my signature. Maybe I should explain that to the wife so she does not try to close it just slowly bleed it down. Their will be nobody here to contest it.

[JimGant]

It does not require a court process ... the printed Testament page has to be brought to a lawyer's office and if the Testament is properly printed (or written) then the lawyer will confirm it by stamping and signing the page, and two of his employers will also sign to confirm as witnesses.

John, personchester's experience seems plausible. His bank manager -- or maybe even the bank's written policy -- calls for a Will that has more assurance of validity than a handwritten Will, or a self-prepared witnessed Will. While these types of Wills are "valid" under Thai law (as long as the witnesses are in order), it would seem prudent that a bank manager might want a little more assurance -- and a lawyer's stamp, the equivalent of a Western notarization (by a large law firm, at least), should provide such assurance. (But wonder why an Amphur Will would not provide similar assurance, if indeed the case.....?. Perhaps banks aren't that familiar with such Wills....).

Interesting the varying approaches of different banks/managers to non probated Wills. Thai Civil law does not mandate probate in non contested situations. But it seems that precedent (and the lawyers' lobby) have dictated probate where it is clearly not needed. And some bank managers, with maybe some neutral legal advice, are totally comfortable with thoroughly vetted (but not probated) Wills.

From a small law firm in Pattaya: http://pattayatoday.net/property-business/legal-corner/how-to-make-a-last-will-and-testament-under-thai-law-2/

Probate of Will

In Thailand, there is no out-of-court system to probate the will instead of going to the judicial process. However, in our experience, we have always found some banks agree to pay to the legatee who have a clear and precise will and is legally reliable by local notarization.

Nice to see a lawyer point-out that not all Wills need to go through probate -- at least when enlightened bank managers are involved. [Note the "legally reliable by local notarization." I guess an Amphur or lawyer chop on the Will might be needed with most bank managers....which probably makes sense.]

And, another quote from this law office:

The court process to recognize the will, which is clear, precise and legally reliable, will be one-stop.

Gosh, hope that's the case -- and not the two-three month probate process discussed earlier in this thread. But, I guess the probate judge would be more accommodating with a self-authenticating Will from the Amphur, or notarized by a law firm -- vice a self-prepared Will, which has less assurance that this was actually prepared by the testator. In that situation, so-much for "one-stop," as witnesses, if any, will probably need to be seen.

As already said by others, hope for the best, but prepare for the worst (i.e., a drawn out probate process).

Oh, an observation: For a private, sealed Amphur Will, the only official chops and Amphur witness signatures are on the envelope containing the private Will. So, unless upon death and retrieval the envelope is opened in the Amphur, and the Will receives Amphur stamps/chops, you only get ONE shot at self-authenticating -- and that's when you unseal the envelope and retrieve the Will. The next person you see will only have an opened, empty envelope -- and a Will that may, or may not, be the Will originally in the envelope. Hmmmm. Guess the probate judge should be first in line for the opening......

[CMBob]

Thai Civil law does not mandate probate in non contested situations.

I realize you keep saying that but there sometimes is a big difference between what the law requires and how one can get around those legal requirements. My opinion [(1) which is worth what one is paying for it, similar to yours and (2) is based on talking with Thai lawyers in Thailand, reading admittedly a small amount of Thai probate law, and having practiced probate law in the US for 35 years+] is that Thai civil law does indeed require the probate court appointment of an executor (administrator) to enable that person to legally have the power to obtain the funds in a bank account in Thailand which was solely in the decedent's name.

That being said (and please note that I used the word "legally" in that last sentence), it does appear that in some cases (what percentage, none of us know) a given bank (or bank manager) will only require a valid Will (with or without some added notarization or whatever) to release the funds to the named executor and/or beneficiary.

Hopefully, Nancy will fill us in on her current experience and, if she's lucky, she can talk the given bank manager into giving up the funds without going through the normally-required legal hoops.

[chiang mai]

"Can I draw up a simple will leaving her EVERYTHING including bank accounts".

Yes, and lawyers will tell you this is the preferred way to write a will here, for one thing is saves you having to change your will every time you change banks.

[JimGant]

Thai civil law does indeed require the probate court appointment of an executor (administrator) to enable that person to legally have the power to obtain the funds in a bank account in Thailand which was solely in the decedent's name.

Since I don't read Thai, I'm restricted to the English translation of Thai civil law. So it's possible the translation is faulty (or incomplete).

And while Thailand is a civil law nation (vice case/common law), like other civil law nations, precedent can -- and reportedly does -- influence how Thai law is carried out. If common practice has everything (except in the case of certain bank managers) going through probate, well, there you have it.

So, again, be prepared to face probate. (But just don't preordain such occurrence by writing into your Will that your executor must be vetted by the court.)

[JimGant]

"Can I draw up a simple will leaving her EVERYTHING including bank accounts".

Yes, and lawyers will tell you this is the preferred way to write a will here, for one thing is saves you having to change your will every time you change banks.

Well, not all lawyers. From the ask the lawyer subforum: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/745273-wishing-clarification-on-your-answer-about-bank-passbook-details/

Q: In the post: Lawyer wants bank passbook details for will - is this usual?

Your answer was: "These details are required in the will"

Wishing clarification on your answer. If true, it means that I can not open a new account without rewriting the will every time?

I tend to open new accounts and finish others due to changes in interest rate conditions, etc.

A: Technically you can state that "all of my monetary assets in all of my bank accounts will be passed onto X person", though we recommend that you state specifically all the details of all accounts. Account owner, account number, branch that it was opened etc. All of which is listed in the passbook which is an official document from the bank. This ensures that your wishes will be carried out in exacting order and that the will executioner will know exactly where to look and which asset is to be distributed to whom, this also makes it easier for the banks to release the funds on your passing. Though it is not a 100% requirement, this is the reason why your lawyer has requested a copy of the document from you.

So, sounds like a good compromise is, "I leave everything, including accounts x,y,z...." Will does not become invalid if such accounts are closed, or new ones are subsequently opened. And, in fact, as Chiangmai's lawyer has said, just saying "everything" should be good enough. But why not cover some additional bases, even if time sensitive, if no harm done -- and if it just might expedite matters when you croak?

[StefanBBK]

Give your wife ATM Pin and internet banking password.

TIT

Even though this is probably less than legal, I would do the same thing. Simple and should work. No questions asked.

[NancyL]

An update on where I am in closing out the bank accounts for my deceased friend. There is a little hiccup because I was joint on a couple of her accounts (now frozen -- I can't withdraw from those accounts, but I could when she was ill) but she also had a direct deposit account for her U.S. Social Security benefit. (I never could draw on that account, of course)

The U.S. gov't can't get their act together and have now made two more monthly benefits payments into that account! Both the U.S. Consulate and the SS office in Manila claim they've done their jobs properly and have no idea why payments are continuing. Sometimes one happens & is soon reclaimed, but never two. Meanwhile, the account must remain open while they "investigate" and (of course) reclaim the money improperly paid.

So, the Will hasn't been "tested" yet because Bangkok Bank won't start the process to close ANY of my friends accounts until ALL of them are ready to close. Bummer. Stay tuned, more news to follow.

Running the Will thru probate wouldn't have speeded up this process any. The problem lies with U.S. social security and Bangkok Bank's rules about wanting to close down all the bank accounts for a deceased person at one time.

[chiang mai]

"Can I draw up a simple will leaving her EVERYTHING including bank accounts".

Yes, and lawyers will tell you this is the preferred way to write a will here, for one thing is saves you having to change your will every time you change banks.

Well, not all lawyers. From the ask the lawyer subforum: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/745273-wishing-clarification-on-your-answer-about-bank-passbook-details/

Q: In the post: Lawyer wants bank passbook details for will - is this usual?

Your answer was: "These details are required in the will"

Wishing clarification on your answer. If true, it means that I can not open a new account without rewriting the will every time?

I tend to open new accounts and finish others due to changes in interest rate conditions, etc.

A: Technically you can state that "all of my monetary assets in all of my bank accounts will be passed onto X person", though we recommend that you state specifically all the details of all accounts. Account owner, account number, branch that it was opened etc. All of which is listed in the passbook which is an official document from the bank. This ensures that your wishes will be carried out in exacting order and that the will executioner will know exactly where to look and which asset is to be distributed to whom, this also makes it easier for the banks to release the funds on your passing. Though it is not a 100% requirement, this is the reason why your lawyer has requested a copy of the document from you.

So, sounds like a good compromise is, "I leave everything, including accounts x,y,z...." Will does not become invalid if such accounts are closed, or new ones are subsequently opened. And, in fact, as Chiangmai's lawyer has said, just saying "everything" should be good enough. But why not cover some additional bases, even if time sensitive, if no harm done -- and if it just might expedite matters when you croak?

I'm OK with belt and braces, it can't hurt.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

An update on where I am in closing out the bank accounts for my deceased friend. There is a little hiccup because I was joint on a couple of her accounts (now frozen -- I can't withdraw from those accounts, but I could when she was ill) ...

Nancy, can you elaborate... what triggered/caused the "freezing" of your now-deceased friend's joint accounts that you mention?

I'm interested, in terms of what that might mean for people who think that their surviving spouse or beneficiary will simply be able to drain joint accounts subsequent to the death, outside of the wills/probate process, using either an ATM card or via online banking.

BTW, thanks for clarifying that you're dealing with BKK Bank on this latest adventure.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

So, sounds like a good compromise is, "I leave everything, including accounts x,y,z...." Will does not become invalid if such accounts are closed, or new ones are subsequently opened. And, in fact, as Chiangmai's lawyer has said, just saying "everything" should be good enough. But why not cover some additional bases, even if time sensitive, if no harm done -- and if it just might expedite matters when you croak?

It's an interesting issue...how to best word things...

I tend to think, for a single beneficiary situation, the simple and broad "ALL financial assets and property in Thailand" approach, followed by an "INCLUDING but not limited to" phrase probably would work.

As for periodically changing bank account numbers, perhaps you could widen the time window some (at least to 10 year periods) by saying under the "including but not limited to" section, something like.... accounts held under the name of FIRST MIDDLE LAST NAME with COUNTRY Passport # XXXXXXXXXXXXX. including the following NAMED THAI BANKS and BRANCHES.

Like U.S. Certificates of Deposit, it's the Thai so-called "Fixed Deposit" accounts, which really are fixed term accounts, that get new account numbers once the initial term has expired and the account is renewed for some future period of time.

The regular savings accounts, including those that currently are paying in the mid-2% range of interest, keep the original ongoing account number. If someone is keeping their bank funds in one of the regular savings account varieties, then hopefully they can avoid entirely the worry about bank account number citations in the will getting obsolete.

[chiang mai]

So, sounds like a good compromise is, "I leave everything, including accounts x,y,z...." Will does not become invalid if such accounts are closed, or new ones are subsequently opened. And, in fact, as Chiangmai's lawyer has said, just saying "everything" should be good enough. But why not cover some additional bases, even if time sensitive, if no harm done -- and if it just might expedite matters when you croak?

It's an interesting issue...how to best word things...

I tend to think, for a single beneficiary situation, the simple and broad "ALL financial assets and property in Thailand" approach, followed by an "INCLUDING but not limited to" phrase probably would work.

As for periodically changing bank account numbers, perhaps you could widen the time window some (at least to 10 year periods) by saying under the "including but not limited to" section, something like.... accounts held under the name of FIRST MIDDLE LAST NAME with COUNTRY Passport # XXXXXXXXXXXXX. including the following NAMED THAI BANKS and BRANCHES.

Like U.S. Certificates of Deposit, it's the Thai so-called "Fixed Deposit" accounts, which really are fixed term accounts, that get new account numbers once the initial term has expired and the account is renewed for some future period of time.

The regular savings accounts, including those that currently are paying in the mid-2% range of interest, keep the original ongoing account number. If someone is keeping their bank funds in one of the regular savings account varieties, then hopefully they can avoid entirely the worry about bank account number citations in the will getting obsolete.

A couple of points:

"Fixed Deposit accounts, which really are fixed term accounts" - they are in fact fixed rate accounts, the term is usually at the discretion of the account holder.

Rather than trying to invent complicated western verbiage for use in a Will where the primary language is not English, surely the more sensible approach is to use a reputable lawyer. I'm aware that you are slightly fixated on this issue and the debate about the different types of Wills is unlikely to ever conclude, perhaps it's time to stop confusing the newer arrivals on this point and instead, point that at a reliable lawyer of which several exist in Chiang Mai, perhaps you might consider building a list of them similar to the pinned list of doctors.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Taking Thailand and its legal profession as a whole, I'd say the odds are at least as good of getting a lousy lawyer and bad, overpriced document as they are of getting a good one and a well-worded will. Surveys say most people have a pretty low opinion of lawyers in my home country, but boy!!! Wait until they see Thailand by comparison.

Unfortunately, it says something about the place we live that, as an expat community here, there seems to be so little clarity and consensus on the proper/normal way of handling these variety of will/probate things.

As for the bank accounts, since you raised this detail in a different thread, Bangkok Bank in fact calls their 1-year, 2-year, 4-year etc accounts "fixed deposit accounts." I don't understand why they choose that wording at all, since it's not the amount of the deposit that's typically fixed, but instead, the duration of the deposit, which is certainly what their description focuses on. They certainly could have called them "fixed rate accounts," but it seems they don't.

[chiang mai]

Taking Thailand and its legal profession as a whole, I'd say the odds are at least as good of getting a lousy lawyer and bad, overpriced document as they are of getting a good one and a well-worded will. Surveys say most people have a pretty low opinion of lawyers in my home country, but boy!!! Wait until they see Thailand by comparison.

Unfortunately, it says something about the place we live that, as an expat community here, there seems to be so little clarity and consensus on the proper way of handling these variety of will/probate things.

As for the bank accounts, since you raised this detail in a different thread, Bangkok Bank in fact calls their 1-year, 2-year, 4-year etc accounts "fixed deposit accounts." I don't understand why they choose that wording at all, since it's not the amount of the deposit that's typically fixed, but instead, the duration of the deposit.

The only element that is fixed is the rate, the bank is obliged to honor that rate for the stated duration but the consumer can opt out when he/she so chooses, that's hardly a fixed term deposit since the duration is capable of variance!

There are good lawyers out there, just as there are good doctors, dentists and wives, I think a part of the reason for this forum is to identify such people and I do think it has been partially successful in that respect. But, if people don't want to read or believe, that's a different problem.

[Mapguy]

An update on where I am in closing out the bank accounts for my deceased friend. There is a little hiccup because I was joint on a couple of her accounts (now frozen -- I can't withdraw from those accounts, but I could when she was ill) but she also had a direct deposit account for her U.S. Social Security benefit. (I never could draw on that account, of course)

The U.S. gov't can't get their act together and have now made two more monthly benefits payments into that account! Both the U.S. Consulate and the SS office in Manila claim they've done their jobs properly and have no idea why payments are continuing. Sometimes one happens & is soon reclaimed, but never two. Meanwhile, the account must remain open while they "investigate" and (of course) reclaim the money improperly paid.

So, the Will hasn't been "tested" yet because Bangkok Bank won't start the process to close ANY of my friends accounts until ALL of them are ready to close. Bummer. Stay tuned, more news to follow.

Running the Will thru probate wouldn't have speeded up this process any. The problem lies with U.S. social security and Bangkok Bank's rules about wanting to close down all the bank accounts for a deceased person at one time.

Bangkok Bank's rules seem onerous. What would happen if there are outstanding bills to be paid (especially after someone has had an extended illness (let alone just routine debts), or if there is someone dependent upon money from the deceased but who otherwise hasn't got a personal account with some cash stashed away and no other financial recourse? Could be a significant problem, for example, if the deceased was paying regular payments on a car loan or rent on a condo.