Israel is using a sledgehammer to crack nuts

[Morch]

 

Only Israel does not occupy Gaza, so how Palis feel in Gaza, they would want to take up with Hamas, their chosen government.

 

The economy of the Hamas administered Gaza Strip is severely hampered by Israel's almost total blockade, high population density, limited land access, strict internal and external security controls, the effects of Israeli military operations, and restrictions on labor and trade access across the border.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

 

They may not occupy it, but they sure do make life miserable for the folks living there.

 

 

Somehow Egypt's part in maintaining the blockade gets less publicity and less flack from critics. For some reason Egyptian authorities do not seem to think this is such a cunning plan.

 

Less publicity to the amount of hurdles put up by Hamas in alleviating the plight of the Palestinians under its rule, by refusing to deal directly with Israel (and sometimes with the PA). Less publicity to damage that was inflicted on utilities by Hamas itself (a successful rocket hit cut off part of their own electricity, provided by Israel, earlier today).

 

Less publicity to taxes, fees and bribes collected by Hamas and leaders for goods smuggled or even legally imported into the Gaza Strip.

 

No money to pay salaries for Hamas officials and government officers, no money for decent infrastructure, facilities or public shelters - but more than enough for rockets, mortars and leaders real estate projects in the Gulf....

 

[bendywire]

Arabs and Hamas were winning the PR propaganda for years, always playing the civilian casualties card.

This time around they fcked up by openly admitting using civilians as human shields, furthermore openly encouraging and forcing civilians in the line of fire.

Big mistake , huge, which will cost them all

Yes Hamas may well have done this but do Israel really need to kill all those human shields ?

I honestly think this is not going the way of Israel in terms of pr. They are responding in a way that can only increase hatred from within and outside of Palestine.


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[bendywire]

 

Only Israel does not occupy Gaza, so how Palis feel in Gaza, they would want to take up with Hamas, their chosen government.

 
The economy of the Hamas administered Gaza Strip is severely hampered by Israel's almost total blockade, high population density, limited land access, strict internal and external security controls, the effects of Israeli military operations, and restrictions on labor and trade access across the border.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip
 
They may not occupy it, but they sure do make life miserable for the folks living there.
 

 
Somehow Egypt's part in maintaining the blockade gets less publicity and less flack from critics. For some reason Egyptian authorities do not seem to think this is such a cunning plan.
 
Less publicity to the amount of hurdles put up by Hamas in alleviating the plight of the Palestinians under its rule, by refusing to deal directly with Israel (and sometimes with the PA). Less publicity to damage that was inflicted on utilities by Hamas itself (a successful rocket hit cut off part of their own electricity, provided by Israel, earlier today).
 
Less publicity to taxes, fees and bribes collected by Hamas and leaders for goods smuggled or even legally imported into the Gaza Strip.
 
No money to pay salaries for Hamas officials and government officers, no money for decent infrastructure, facilities or public shelters - but more than enough for rockets, mortars and leaders real estate projects in the Gulf....
 

Meanwhile Israel continue to bomb the shit out of them anyway.


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[simple1]

@Morch:

 

I enjoy reading your responses.

 

Perhaps a side issue, but on the issue of Hamas within the Unity government some interesting background. This info is from  BBC Watch analysis that, provides quite a bit of detail at URL below.

 

“It is not clear how the dual civil services will be merged and whether Hamas will cede any control of security in Gaza, where in addition to its 25,000-strong military wing, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the group controls 20,000 other armed personnel.”

 

http://bbcwatch.org/tag/hamas-fatah-deal/

Edited July 14, 2014 by simple1

[Pakboong]

 

"I can only imagine the reaction if Cambodia was lobbing rockets into Thailand.

 

Or if Ireland was doing the same to the UK"

 

Of course the Irish did just that but I don't recall any British retaliatory airstrikes on civilians. The OP was about proportionality remember and Israel will never succeed with these tactics.

 

"Clearly the "Jewish vote" is not as critical as say the HIspanic vote".

 

When it comes to US foreign policy the "Jewish Vote" is way more influential, largely as a result of the huge amounts of money they can mobilize. Just check out the influence Sheldon Adelson has and he is only one man.

 

 

'They did not invade the country and they certainly have not enslaved a population"

 

Really? Been to the West Bank lately?

 

What would be a "proportionate" reaction to rockets being launched indiscriminately at civilian targets?  Would setting up an equivalent system returning indiscriminate rocket fire at the Gaza Strip be better?  Perhaps Israel ought to dismantle the Iron Dome defense systems as well, just for that sense of fair play?

 

The Jewish lobby in the USA is indeed powerful. Probably too much so. Then again, so are other lobbies and influence groups - big pharma, weapon industry, NRA, Oil & Gas, Saudi Arabia....

 

There West Bank, or at least large parts of it are most definitely occupied by Israel, one way or another.  The Gaza Strip is not.  The populations is not "enslaved" by Israel in either place.  The rockets are not being launched from the West Bank, but from the Gaza Strip.

 

Its an important point you make but I would twist it around and ask the question, "why are no rockets fired from the West Bank"? They are Palestinians who have the same view as those from Gaza. What really makes them different.  The targets in the West Bank would be so much easier to hit. The Palestinians don't fear dying so why no attacks from the West Bank. There is a simple failure of consistency here and there are no simple explanations. Believe me, I have heard several hundred explanations but never one anywhere close to my satisfaction.If the Palestinians believe in using their kids for human shields, why don't they simply use them as suicide bombers in the settlements?

 

The stories we are told about Suicide Bombers, Human Shields, etc.. just don't hold up in the court of public opinion. I have had hundreds try to answer this and I have never gotten a reasonable answer. I almost always ask it as a rhetorical question.

 

The conclusion for those of us who have no dog in the fight is illogical.  Nobody is going to sell me  some lame explanation, If these things about Palestinians are true of Gaza they must also be true of the West Bank,.

 

Given that the IDF knows exactly where the underground rocket launchers are located, and I know the area is under constant watch, how do these rockets get fired? Keeping in mind of course, that no rockets are being fired from the West Bank. Why do these Palestinians only fire rockets toward the desert from behind the wall and kill only 26 Israelis in 14 years when all they have to do is fire into the settlements and get a much better kill rate with no expense or effort. It is the Settlements that they are angry about so why not take it out on the settlers. The Palestinians after all do not care if they become martyred so what difference would it make? They wouldn't have to go to the trouble to smuggle in explosives, they would have to stockpile rockets, etc.. To say that they could get way more bang for the buck is  a huge understatement.

 

The obvious conclusion is, the Israelis allow the rockets to be fired over the wall from Gaza. There is no other explanation that makes sense to somebody who has no dog in the fight. The opportunities for a suicide bomber are much greater in the west bank than they are in Gaza.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Pakboong

[connda]

If Hamas stops firing rockets, Israel will stop responding to them. No civilized country would put up with its children being kidnapped and murdered and thousands of rockets being aimed at its cities by a terrorist group that has been calling for its destruction for decades. Yes, Israel's defensive measures are mostly working, but that is no thanks to Hamas, who want to murder as many innocent civilians as they can and have done so before the separation wall and Iron Dome became so effective at stopping their terrorist strikes. 

 

 

This much we know: Israel lives under constant threat from terrorists who would like nothing better than to exterminate the Jewish state that they consider an outright abomination. 
This much we have also come to understand: In polite society, it is increasingly fashionable to roll one’s eyes or outright indict Israel for daring to defend itself against those who aim to indiscriminately kill its people and undermine its right to exist.

The cycle continues as Hamas fires hundreds of rockets at Israeli cities, and Israel responds with far more precise and effective salvos at terrorists. All too predictably, international condemnation is starting to come Israel’s way.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/playing-death-card-article-1.1863872?comment=true

Not much 'Holy" about the "Holy Land" other then the holes in building and lives.  And an immense amount of finger pointing.  It's not on my "places to visit" list.

 

[Jingthing]

...

 

The obvious conclusion is, the Israelis allow the rockets to be fired over the wall from Gaza. There is no other explanation that makes sense to somebody who has no dog in the fight. The opportunities for a suicide bomber are much greater in the west bank than they are in Gaza.

 

Another day. Another conspiracy theory ... 

 

 

IDF shoots dead Palestinian targeting Israeli vehicles in West Bank

 

 

http://www.jpost.com/Defense/IDF-shoots-dead-Palestinian-targeting-Israeli-vehicles-in-West-Bank-362683

Edited July 14, 2014 by Jingthing

[Pakboong]

 

...

 

The obvious conclusion is, the Israelis allow the rockets to be fired over the wall from Gaza. There is no other explanation that makes sense to somebody who has no dog in the fight. The opportunities for a suicide bomber are much greater in the west bank than they are in Gaza.

 

Another day. Another conspiracy theory ... 

 

 

IDF shoots dead Palestinian targeting Israeli vehicles in West Bank

 

 

http://www.jpost.com/Defense/IDF-shoots-dead-Palestinian-targeting-Israeli-vehicles-in-West-Bank-362683

 

No doubt there are incidents. There should be many more. The original 3 kidnapped teenagers were from the settlements.

[Morch]

 

I feel sorry for  Israel, they do need to show their strength otherwise these attacks will never end.

 

For how long do they need to flex their muscles?  They've been doing it for 0ver 60 years and it hasn't worked yet.  These attacks might end if Israel returned the lands stolen since the 1947 agreement.  And that's a big might.  How would Americans feel if some third party gave away the majority of their country to another group and left the yanks with Texas, Louisiana and Arkansas?  I don't think they would like it.

 

 

The attacks "might" end, or not.

 

Seeing as Israel already withdrew from the Gaza Strip, and that did not stop the rocket attacks....maybe not much to hope for on that front.

 

Most of the lands were not "stolen", unless you call winning a war not started by Israel "stealing".  There is no real formulation in which Israel can or will go roll back history and go to the 1947 partition of the UN resolution. It was not very viable to begin with, and this is not a realistic starting position for the Palestinians. The 1967 lines, with some adjustments to both sides are probably more reasonable for both sides, or at least, more doable.

[Morch]

Lancelot, you are taking me too literally. The IRA's terror campaign was carried out with the support of the Irish government and largely funded from the US. My point was that, despite using some very rough tactics, the British did not attack civilian areas with such disregard as the Israelis are doing now.

 

As for the influence of the Jewish lobby I think you are being a trifle naive. If the US really wanted to broker a peace deal it could bring a lot more pressure on Israel than it does. The problem is AIPAC and the money it wields. Do you have any idea of the power of someone like Sheldon Adelson?

 

And how many times has the US voted against Israel at the UN?

 

How many of the various UN resolutions deal with Israel, and is this figure proportional to the magnitude of the conflict?  Compare with similar conflicts and human rights violations globally. Seems like a bit over-attention given to a specific country.

 

 

[ggold]

 

 

 

 

By the way, plenty was done between The Balfour Declaration and  WW2. The Arabs and the Jews were fighting each other and both sides were fighting the Brits.

 

And this negotiation was with the British, that bastion of democracy, who gave the world that enduring legacy - the concentration camp.

 

Which is what the government of Israel has made in Palestine.

 

 

There is no Palestine.
 

 

 

You, and others, may repeat this nonsense all you like. Just gets more sand in your mouths with the heads buried that deep.   There is a Palestinian state in the making, pretty much acknowledged by most nations, and de facto, by Israel as well.

 

It is true, though, that currently there is no credible Palestinian leadership, what with Hamas doing their own thing regardless of the PA. This will need to be resolved before things can move forward.
 

 

 

A Palestinian state in the making is not a Palestinian state on the ground. That is all I was saying. It is not sticking ones head in the sand. If the Palestinians get their act together then there may very well be a Palestinian state alongside Israel. But as it stands, If Hamas continue with their attacks on Israel there will never be a Palestinian state.

 

When Israel gave back the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians, they had an opportunity to start creating the infrastructure for a nation state, instead they decided to fire rockets at Israel. 

 

So the Palestinians show they are not sincere and deserve everything the Israelis throw at them.

   

 

[ggold]

 

Lancelot, you are taking me too literally. The IRA's terror campaign was carried out with the support of the Irish government and largely funded from the US. My point was that, despite using some very rough tactics, the British did not attack civilian areas with such disregard as the Israelis are doing now.

 

As for the influence of the Jewish lobby I think you are being a trifle naive. If the US really wanted to broker a peace deal it could bring a lot more pressure on Israel than it does. The problem is AIPAC and the money it wields. Do you have any idea of the power of someone like Sheldon Adelson?

 

And how many times has the US voted against Israel at the UN?

 

How many of the various UN resolutions deal with Israel, and is this figure proportional to the magnitude of the conflict?  Compare with similar conflicts and human rights violations globally. Seems like a bit over-attention given to a specific country.

 

 

 

 

That is why the UN is dominated by the Arab nations. They  didn't even pass a resolution condemning Assad for what he did to his own citizens. The UN is ineffectual and not even handed  in any way.

[Ulysses G.]

There is no Palestine.

 
You, and others, may repeat this nonsense all you like. Just gets more sand in your mouths with the heads buried that deep.   There is a Palestinian state in the making, pretty much acknowledged by most nations, and de facto, by Israel as well.

Only one problem, it happens to be true. A "Palestinian state in the making" means that there never was one before and that there is not one now. I am sure that you realize this already, but lots of people think that the Jews came along and "stole" some Arab country called Palestine that has never existed. What he said was not "nonsense", no matter how much it offends you. It was literally and technically correct. Edited July 14, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

I wonder how Israel would react if around 150 of their innocent citizens had been killed by warplanes and missiles?

They have created the biggest gulag or concentration camp modern mankind has ever know and it is Gaza.

They have nuclear weapons but unlike Iran have never signed up to international agreements or weapons inspections.

The West Bank has been invaded by so called settlers from abroad who have developed an apartheid system with their own roads etc.

The only solution is the UN and civilised countries should ban all imports of Israeli goods and trade subject it's citizens to travel bans.

Look at what Christian Aid says about settlements.

"Christian Aid believes that Israeli settlements will continue to expand unless action is taken to stop them from being profitable.

For too long now the international community has condemned settlements as illegal, without taking concrete action to prevent them growing (both economically and in numbers).

Against this, the UK government describes them as the greatest obstacle to peace between Israel and the Palestinians."

http://www.christianaid.org.uk/whatwedo/middle-east/take-action-to-ban-israeli-settlement-produce.aspx

 

So now all of the casualties on the Palestinian side are transformed into the equivalent of "innocent citizens".   There's no Hamas, no Islamic Jihad....just ordinary people going about their daily lives.  To answer your question, Israel would probably hit back with whatever it had. That said, Israel would probably think twice on how to go about it if the odds were stacked against it. And would probably not induce more of its innocent citizens to stand in harm's way.

 

Gaza is a concentration camp maintained by Israel. Right. There's only this pesky issue with the Egyptian border, which blows quite a hole in this argument. Somehow the Egyptians aren't that keen on letting free passage of goods and people through. The blockade got nothing to do with the Hamas abusing easing of restrictions in order to re-arm itself, it's just Israeli spite.

 

Nuclear arms - now, that's of course not really related to the topic, but why not bring it in? Israel did not threaten another country with a nuclear strike. Other countries did.

 

The Jewish settlements in the West Bank are illegal, wrong and self-defeating. The Apartheid bit stems from the misguided notion that Israel annexed the West Bank. It did not. The minute Israel does that, or officially declares it will hold on to them settlements (which amounts to a partial annexation) - go ahead and call it Apartheid. Until then, bear in mind Israel got a 20% Arab minority (within its borders) as citizens with full rights and full political representation.

 

As a point of reference, the Israeli illegal settlements and road system, plus the cost of maintaining troops to secure them makes the notion of them being "profitable" in any meaningful way quite ludicrous. In effect, this is one of the issues repeatedly coming up in Israeli politics, many claiming that budgets allocated to them may be better used elsewhere (even without factoring in the political implications).

 

Quite amazing that one would still see this conflict in such a one-sided way. What is advocated is not a negotiation or coming to an agreement, but a forced solution. There are no issues with Hamas launching rockets on civilians ? This is all Israel's doing?

[In Search of Space]

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

 

 

Not really correct is it ?   Muslims pray facing Makkah wherever they are in the world, so if they were located south-west of Makkah, then they would actually also be facing Jerusalem

[Morch]

One of the worst things you can do is give back homeland of religious group who believe they are "chosen by God" and whose old testament is a record of genocide, scorched earth, enslavement and rape. "We did not want to do it, but God gets very angry with us if we don't kill every living thing that is not in our in group). If Jews needed a homeland after WWII should have given them New York. There were already more Jews there than in Palestine. But it is always easier to give away things that you don't own yourself.....

 

That is if one believes all Jews in Israel are zealots, which is not the case.

 

Not sure if by your logic, it would have been best to give the land over to fanatic Muslim group with its own book, or locate the largest concentration of Muslims and announce it to be Palestine.

[Morch]

 

 

What does Israel expect ?  They invaded the country, and enslaved the resident population..

Really? There has never been an Arab country called Palestine. The Arabs were the ones that started the conflict and they elected Hamas - a terrorist group - to govern them. I'm pretty sure that if they were "slaves," somebody that was not shooting rockets at Israel would be in charge.  

 

 

Israel is occupying thier land  and all this terror would stop if they gave up their  illegal occupation as demanded by the UN.

 

 

Israel is not occupying the Gaza Strip, and this terror did not stop after Israel withdrew.  In fact, the Hamas charter speaks about the destruction of Israel and taking control of all the land.

 

[Morch]

I have a good Jewish friend in Canada whose surname is Levi - No problem tracing that family back 2500 years to Israel! His view is that what the 'Zionists' are doing in Israel and to the Palestinians is an absolute travesty and he is embarrassed to identify himself as a Jew. He says it is nothing short of ethnic cleansing and that no lessons at all have been learned from the persecution of the Jews during WW2, what the state of Israel are doing is engaging in terrorism and genocide! Now that is the view of a North American Jewish family - is he anti-semitic? I dare you !  

 

It gives me the slightest hope of faith in humanity when there are knowledgable properly educated Jews around who recognise the disgraceful unchecked behaviour of those occupying Israel. As he nicely put it, 'please do not think this happens in my name'!  Shame some of the uneducated clunks on here cannot see things for what they are. I am not supportive of either side but I know a playground bully when I see him and non of us find bullying acceptable, we all cry stop it, intervene. If I saw a playground bully at school I WOULD intervene, regardless of who the child belonged to. All we have at the moment are people egging the bully on and giving them a bigger stick to beat the small kid with.

 

You lot that scream - Hamas should arrest the killers of the youths - I ask you, how do you arrest anyone when the police and army have been destroyed and dismantled? I mean we have just had the chief of whatever pitiful police force they had blown into a thousand pieces - that's gonna help isn't it.

 

One day, you guy's will wake up and go ! and it will be TOO late

 

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men stand by and do nothing!

 

I don't care about sides. If you cannot work out what is right or wrong, if you cannot see what is happening with an honest objective eye, you are no different to the animals ordering the killing on both sides.

 

The uncontrolled, illegal settlement buildings continues, the land grabs continue and the complete ignoring of UN resolutions have continued for 30 years. It is totally unacceptable for any nation to use this type of force on the civilian population of any other nation. It was unacceptable in Iraq, It was unacceptable in Afghanistan and Pakistan and it is unacceptable in Gaza. Gaza is already in the stone age, they are not permitted to have concrete to build with and for Ulysses to honestly suggest they have luxury malls and are fat is preposterous. And what if they do Ulysses? Is that a luxury only you are entitled to? Are these people not permitted to live? And for Jingthing, the Palestinians tried negotiating peace without Hamas, Hamas were not always on the scene have you forgotten? But Israel never wanted peace they put more and more stringent conditions in place that became completely unacceptable, as they would do for anyone in any nation on earth. I have no idea why I have even typed this because those of you that are blind will refuse to open your eyes and see.

 

 

What part of this image do you not understand? How would you like the palestinians to settle down and form their own country out of this Ulysses. And the green bit gets smaller every single day!

 

 

 

 

We all have good friends. Sometimes they are useful in making a political point.

Having a Jewish person speaking out against Israel is not a rare thing, many Israelis do the same.

In fact, many people in the Western world are speaking against their nations, governments, and religions.

 

Then again, a lot of people support their governments, countries, religions, policies, whatever.

These people have friends too, and they can also be useful in making a political point.

 

Having a member of a group speak against it is not really that out of the ordinary, nor does it necessarily

serve as proof that the basic tenants of the group are  mistaken, wrong or whatever. At best, it shows that

there is some dissent or that the group holds on to pluralistic ideals.

 

I personally do not like to be friends with anecdotes, they make lousy drinking buddies.

 

 

And now for them boring details:

 

Regardless of whatever you're going to post next - your friend, imaginary or not, having no problems in tracking

down his specific ancestry 2500 years back, and to Israel is a statement that is most probably untrue or incorrect.

At the very least, it is not something that "no problem" would be associated with.

 

No one shouted for Hamas to arrest the kidnappers/killers. This happened in the West Bank, not in the Gaza Strip.

While there is Hamas presence there, law and order is administered by either the PA's security forces or by the IDF

(depending on specific areas). In contrast to your assertion - there are Palestinian security forces and a police force.

The PA was rather cooperative with the IDF efforts in connection with the kidnapping/murder.

 

The illegal settlements (and no mistake, they are illegal) are in the West Bank, while the rocket fire comes from Gaza,

sans illegal settlements or troop presence. The issue nowadays is more about expansion of existing settlements (and

again, illegal, wrong and stupid) rather than putting up new ones and taking possession of more lands.

 

The economic situation in Gaza is dire. True enough. That is unless you are one of the Hamas leaders (or for that

matter, any other terrorist organization), or a family member. They do pretty well of the mess, some became very rich

since Hamas took over. There is quite a bit of money in smuggling, taxing legal imports, bribes, cuts from Aid budgets

and funds coming in from Iran and the Gulf. No shortage of details on these things - even in Arab media. In addition to

the above, there are some families which between them control most of the central businesses in Gaza, and been on

the inside track for years. This haven't changed. As an anecdote (not a drinking buddy) do look up where Haniyeh's

family get their emergency medical treatments...(hint: not far from Gaza, and ironically enough, targeted sometimes

by same rockets).

 

While Israeli governments had their fair share of being anything but peace-seeking angels, it is not quite the same as

saying that the Palestinians did their best to reach an agreements. Can easily find grounds to fault both sides on this.

The PA cannot truly negotiate without the Hamas, at least not on anything big or permanent, and Israel have no real

reason to assert that the Hamas will go along with whatever agreement is signed by the PA. It is indeed a messy mess

is there was one. As for Israel adding conditions, true enough. Were they the only side doing that? Nope. Making silly

demands is practically a tradition when it comes to this conflict.

 

And the map, always good fun. 1947 - the green area is not "Palestine" or under Palestinian ownership. There was no

Palestine as an Arab entity at that time, and the Palestinians (or Arabs, whatever) did not own that much of it in reality.

One glaring example is the southern area - that big triangle, mostly desert, was sparsely inhibited by Bedouins (and no

they are not Palestinians as such), with more than a few Israeli settlements. Do note that this peace of real estate, was

given to the Jews under the UN resolution as it was deemed low value. Same goes for the Dead Sea area, and a few

other spots which somehow do not show.

 

The UN plan, viable or not, was accepted by the Jews, rejected by the Arabs. The Arabs started a war, lost it and lost

a lot of land as a result. Is that a land grab? Or was opening a war in opposition to the UN resolution a land grab?

 

1949-1967, might give the impression that there was a Palestinian state or something of the sort. Not really. Gaza was

held by Egypt, the West Bank by Jordan. Did any of them attempt to form a Palestinian state or hand the land over to

its rightful owners? Nope. Did the Palestinians, Egypt or Jordan enter negotiations with Israel in order to get a peace

agreement done? Not really.

 

You do not pick sides. You just pick one. And you have the audacity to call other blind. Not to mention the animals,

if they happen to see things differently than you.

[Morch]

 

 

 

 
Israel is occupying thier land  and all this terror would stop if they gave up their  illegal occupation
 

 
You mean like when they turned over Gaza to the Palestinians? That worked out real well. 

Gaza is a concentration camp with the border controlled by the Israeli military.

 

 

Except for the bit where the border is with Egypt, and which is also not open to free flow of goods and people.

But do carry on...
 

[Baerboxer]

Very wrong. There was plenty of terrorism in the Ottoman Empire before Zionism even existed, but the Arabs used terrorism in the Palestine area before the Jews and the Jews responded. Look up the Hebron Massacre. They were also there for thousands of years before the Arabs non-stop, although a lot of both Jews and Arabs from other areas started immigrating in the early 1900s

 

So Jewish terrorists murdering 2 British army sergeants and then even booby trapping one of the bodies and blowing it to smithereens was a response to Arab terrorism? How quick some are to forget those who fought their worst enemies.

 

Using your logic you have no problems with the Apaches, Comanches and other native American tribes repossessing their land and expelling others off?

[Morch]

 

 

Gaza is a concentration camp with the border controlled by the Israeli military.

 
Every single country on this planet controls its borders. 
 
Whats your excuse for Egyptian side of the border? It is also closed and tightly controlled by Egypt

Perhaps you would like to defend the slaughter of thousands of innocent Palestinians by the heavily armed
IDF as justified border control.

The current escalation will achieve nothing for Israel apart from highlighting on the world stage the imbalance
In their tactics.

As I have said before Israel needs economic and travel bans to bring them to some reasonable solution to the situation. Common sense suggest a two state solution will never work but the right wingers want a total Jewish state and will never allow integration.

 

 

Is it thousands now? Thought the accepted exaggeration was "hundreds" this morning.

 

Imbalance in tactics. On the assumption that Hamas is not interested in negotiations (or so it says), and would accept a ceasefire only if it gets a glory shot or if things get really dire for leadership - what would you recommend then? Not in the grand scheme of things, that would be strategy. On a tactical level, how would you make this more "balanced"? Would Israel answering with rockets of their own on a one-per-one basis be adequate? Should Israel dismantle the Iron Dome batteries, to make them

casualty figures look more "balanced"?

 

It appears some think that Israel is the only side in this conflict. That basically, the Palestinians (and no, usually they don't want to bother with distinctions between Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hamas and their own internal divisions) are just bursting with anticipation to sign a peace agreement while evil Israel just plots how to avoid this eventuality.

 

No idea if the two state solution is dead or not, as they said in The Princess Bride, mostly dead is not all dead. But a "total Jewish state", don't think I heard that one in quite a while. Would be hard to do with the 20% Arab minority already in Israel, and without massive use of the Enterprise's transporter rooms.

[Morch]

I am not sure what planet you are one but you would need to be some sort of blinding drug to not see that launching missiles from fighter aircraft in to densely populated areas is going to result in many civilian casualties.

Israel has tried this tactic many times in the past and it has never worked.

All it does is highlight the inhuman treatment the right wingers who run the country inflict on their neighbours.

We see it across the world in news bulletins and no amount of defensive rhetoric will hide the truth.

By contrast their sworn enemy Iran lets their Jewish population live in peace and harmony.

 

 

And you do not see anything problematic with the Hamas using densely populated areas to stage attacks, terrorist operations, store weapons, and hide its personnel? Launching a rocket from withing a densely populated area is a morally sound proposition while the opposite is not?

 

Nothing stopping the Hamas from relocating its operations outside residential areas, and thereby avoiding placing the civilians at risk.

 

As for Iran - a small Jewish minority, not really that free as you propose (only one senior family member can leave the country at a time, and that too, needs permission). Most government posts not open to Jews (and a few other minorities). How is this even remotely related to topic, or how is it a contrast to Israel having a large (20%) Arab minority with full rights?

 

 

[Chicog]

Israelis and Palestinians Killed
in the Current Violence At least 1,110 Israelis and 6,961 Palestinians
have been killed since September 29, 2000.

 

It's not going to stop until both sides take the plunge.

 

 

[Morch]

 

 

 

 
Israel is occupying thier land  and all this terror would stop if they gave up their  illegal occupation
 

 
You mean like when they turned over Gaza to the Palestinians? That worked out real well. 

And then blockaded them and controlled them to the point they even rationed their water. Gaza has never been free to control their own affairs, it is no more than an internment camp. If Israel would make proper consessions like withdrawing to the agreed '47 borders, perhaps less the Golan heights, then they would take the high ground, so to speak, and leave the Arabs with little ground for complaint.

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The blockade is effectively maintained by Egypt as well, they do share a border with the Gaza Strip. Not that much indignation over that, though. The Israeli blockade could be effectively nullified at any given time if Egypt willed it.

 

The same Egyptians also took control of the Gaza Strip from 1959 to 1967 (and de facto held the keys since 1949). In 1959, the same Egypt dissolved the Palestinian government in Gaza... not much noise about that nowadays too.

 

No one (except hardcore Palestinians and delusional outsiders) really expects Israel to go back to the 1947 borders, which, by the way, were not agreed to by the Palestinians back then. Most of the current formulations use the 1967 border as a starting point. If things could be settled on these lines it would already be a minor miracle, 1947 is not on the cards. The Golan Heights are not part of the Israeli -Palestinian conflict, but a separate issue vs. Syria.

 

At least some of the "Arabs" (not sure which were meant) are holding the position that nothing short of no Israel at all will do. Hamas, for example. So guess there will always be complaints....

 

 

[Morch]

 

 

With the exception of the 1947 map the others are factually wrong and is Arab propaganda.

1947 is wrong too. That is a map of Mandate Palestine, under the administration of Great Britain by the League of Nations. It was never controlled by the Palestinian Arabs and never promised to them either.

 

 

It is factual in so far, that it shows the lands that were promised for the Jewish state. The land in green is what was left for the Arabs to have. So OK not promised to the Palestinians. Even Jerusalem was supposed to be under UN control! It never was.
 

But again it is in isolation of the Arab countries around it. i.e. The west bank belonged to Jordan and the Gaza strip was Egyptian. They were never Palestinian territory.

 

In fact I think I am right in saying that a Palestinian state only became a talking point after 1967. After Israel took control of the west bank. and in 1973 with the peace deal with Egypt, Egypt left Gaza under Isreali control, and Jordan to survive being turned into a quasi Palestinian state, left the west bank to the Palestinians for a future homeland. Even though it was under Israeli control after 1967. So it is questionable as to how much of a claim the Palestinians have to any land as it was never theirs 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

mapPNCplan1974.jpg

 

 

As this map shows there never was an area called Palestine beyond the boarders of Israel they are Jodanian and Egyptian.

 

 

There was a short lived Palestinian government in Gaza (1949-1959), which was heavily controlled by Egypt, and later on "incorporated" into the United Arab Republic, but basically held by Egypt.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Palestine_Government

[Morch]

 

They were never Palestinian territory.

Agreed. That is why that map is completely bogus. This one is real though:

 

 

 

 

Except that giving back the Sinai peninsula to Egypt does not have much to do with the Palestinians. If you ignore the left hand map, it all looks less impressive and for people coming from larger countries (which makes most of the world) a bit hard to understand what the fighting is all about...

 

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

So no compromise then? It all has to do with the '47 borders and Israel's constant land grabbing. The Golan heights are under Israeli occupation for their strategic value and access to water, so what I propose is to let them keep them in the spirit of compromise.

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As far as Gaza goes it is already along the 47 boarder line, Israel hasn't taken any land from the Gaza area.

 

 

 

Yes it has!

 

 

 

Oh no it hasn't!

 

 

 

The original lines of the Gaza Strip, under the partition plan of 1947 were indeed much larger than nowadays.

The bit often left out in some maps lies along the north part of the current Egyptian-Israeli border. 
 

[jacky54]

Thanks for your informative posts Morch, nice to see not everyone on here has been brainwashed by the pro 'Palestinian' media.

[ggold]

 

 

Gaza is a concentration camp with the border controlled by the Israeli military.

 
Every single country on this planet controls its borders. 
 
Whats your excuse for Egyptian side of the border? It is also closed and tightly controlled by Egypt

Perhaps you would like to defend the slaughter of thousands of innocent Palestinians by the heavily armed
IDF as justified border control.

The current escalation will achieve nothing for Israel apart from highlighting on the world stage the imbalance
In their tactics.

As I have said before Israel needs economic and travel bans to bring them to some reasonable solution to the situation. Common sense suggest a two state solution will never work but the right wingers want a total Jewish state and will never allow integration.

 

 

Common sense suggest a two state solution will never work but the right wingers want a total Jewish state and will never allow integration.
 

Indeed a two state solution is unworkable. But do you really think the Palestinians want integration? As a Jewish state Israel would not be Israel if that happened. Neither side would want that, even though for the Palestinians it would be one way to get an eventual Palestinian state. But Really why should Israel end up having to support any future Palestinian government and state financially.

 

They should merge with Jordan end of.

 

 

 

[Morch]

I suggest some of you who peddle right wing Zionist views should read Noam Chomsky.

Chomsky "grew up... in the Jewish-Zionist cultural tradition" . His father was one of the foremost scholars of the Hebrew language and taught at a religious school.
He is highly critical of the policies of Israel towards the Palestinians and its Arab neighbors. His book The Fateful Triangle is considered one of the premier texts on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict among those who oppose Israel's policies in regard to the Palestinians as well as American support for the state of Israel. He has also accused Israel of "guiding state terrorism" for selling weapons to apartheid South Africa and Latin American . He has also fiercely criticized sectors of the American Jewish community for their role in obtaining U.S. support, stating that "they should more properly be called 'supporters of the moral degeneration and ultimate destruction of Israel'

There are a lot of reasonable sympathetic people in Israel who do not share the right wing Zionist platform.

As an Israeli human rights organization, B'Tselem acts primarily to change Israeli policy in the Occupied Territories and ensure that its government, which rules the Occupied Territories, protects the human rights of residents there and complies with its obligations under international law.

http://www.btselem.org

 

I would suggest that as well, not because everything he says in his works is necessarily correct, illuminating or morally superior, but because he does make interesting points which make people think about issues, is not agree with him on all of them. He's also a very gifted writer, often making complex ideas easier to grasp (he's not beneath sneaking some low balls, though, which is sad). The other think I personally find unappealing is that over the years he became a sort of zealot himself, which makes some of the discussions (over papers and talks) less than they could be.

 

But there it is again - anyone not agreeing with a point of view is dubbed a right winger, and then insinuated that right wingers are not reasonable sympathetic people. Not sure that this is a very constructive, or for that matter, a reasonable and sympathetic position, but I am sure that assuming Zionist views are restricted to right wingers is a definite mistake. Apart from the Arab and the Jewish Orthodox  minorities, most people in Israel would describe themselves as holding Zionist views (even though the notion of what makes a Zionist would probably be different with some groups).