Thousands march for Gaza in London, clashes in Paris over Israeli onslaught

[Jingthing]

He failed to mention (or perhaps he is ignorant) that Hamas places rocket launchers in heavily populated areas and also near hospitals, schools, U.N. shelters, etc. If a force was shooting rockets at his country, perhaps at the gay bar he was hanging out at, you'd see he would change his tune about defending against that. I love hearing from a gay "progressive" who knows full well that he is supporting a regime in Gaza that can and do murder his kind just for who they are. Israel is after aggressive targets ... Israel doesn't murder just because someone is an Arab, a gay man, or an internal dissenter of their own policy. 

Edited August 7, 2014 by Jingthing

[GentlemanJim]

He failed to mention (or perhaps he is ignorant) that Hamas places rocket launchers in heavily populated areas and also near hospitals, schools, U.N. shelters, etc. If a force was shooting rockets at his country, perhaps at the gay bar he was hanging out at, you'd see he would change his tune about defending against that. I love hearing from a gay "progressive" who knows full well that he is supporting a regime in Gaza that can and do murder his kind just for who they are. Israel is after aggressive targets ... Israel doesn't murder just because someone is an Arab, a gay man, or an internal dissenter of their own policy. 

 

"Israel is after aggressive targets ... Israel doesn't murder just because someone is an Arab, a gay man, or an internal dissenter of their own policy."

 

How right Jingthing, according to the tally at the moment you are right, they do not discriminate, the just murder everyone inside Gaza.

 

Things just haven't changed much with the passage of time.  Actually with what is going on it is living proof of Darwinism. Creationism could not have been designed to make people so bad.

 

“Darwinism by itself did not produce the Holocaust, but without Darwinism... neither Hitler nor his Nazi followers would have had the necessary scientific underpinnings to convince themselves and their collaborators that one of the worlds greatest atrocities was really morally praiseworthy.” 

― Richard Weikart, From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany

 

That could be written yesterday for the current situation.

 

Edited August 7, 2014 by GentlemanJim

[Jingthing]

 

He failed to mention (or perhaps he is ignorant) that Hamas places rocket launchers in heavily populated areas and also near hospitals, schools, U.N. shelters, etc. If a force was shooting rockets at his country, perhaps at the gay bar he was hanging out at, you'd see he would change his tune about defending against that. I love hearing from a gay "progressive" who knows full well that he is supporting a regime in Gaza that can and do murder his kind just for who they are. Israel is after aggressive targets ... Israel doesn't murder just because someone is an Arab, a gay man, or an internal dissenter of their own policy. 

 

"Israel is after aggressive targets ... Israel doesn't murder just because someone is an Arab, a gay man, or an internal dissenter of their own policy."

 

How right Jingthing, according to the tally at the moment you are right, they do not discriminate, the just murder everyone inside Gaza.

 

Your statement is just not credible. Everyone? Why would you even try to tell a lie like that? Would anyone believe that? 

 

I will say and I have said before, it is entirely valid to question Israel's tactics in targeting military targets that are in the sensitive areas they have hit. The military targets are valid but it is a valid question to ask if the targets are worth the human costs. 

The speech you posted didn't even bother to mention (again he might just be IGNORANT) that these places got hit because there were military targets there. 

That is dishonest hyperbole to not mention it.

I also think he's a hypocrite for providing propaganda for Hamas ... a power dedicated to murdering his OWN kind. 

Edited August 7, 2014 by Jingthing

[dr_lucas]

 

 

What then is a prudent policy for the international community towards Hamas, especially in the aftermath of its takeover of Gaza? The answer is a united front and a consistent policy, demanding and insisting on the acceptance of the three principles laid out by the Quartet (United States, United Nations, European Union and Russia): recognition of Israel's right to exist, renouncing and ending terrorism, and accepting all prior agreements and understandings achieved between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.
These are sensible principles. If Hamas were to accept these principles, abandon its radical beliefs and, like the IRA transform itself into a partner for dialogue, it could join the peace process and put an end to the suffering of the Palestinian people. Indeed, if Hamas stops rocket attacks on Israeli towns and villages and releases the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, it can pave the way for an immediate and stable ceasefire in the Gaza region.
Unfortunately, given the intransigent ideological and religious foundations behind Hamas' violent actions, such an expectation is quite unrealistic. Instead, Middle East peace would better be served by supporting the moderate Palestinian leadership in their effort to lead their people to a reasonable compromise - a path which Israel as well is willing to take.

 

Israel's ambassador to Ireland tells it exactly like it is.   

 

 

I think more like, Ireland's Senator David Norris tells it EXACTLY like it is.

 

 

Does that mean also you disagree with what the ambassador wrote? If so, what specifically do you disagree with in the comparison he made? Is there any part of what he wrote that you do agree with? Do you believe the IRA and Hamas are the same?

 

[dexterm]

 

 

 

This is all about war isn't?
Not much else humans can achieve or be proud of.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Yes, it is a war.

Israel wants to live in peace, to stop having to send every generation to existential war, and to eat hummus.

Hamas wants to take over all of Israel for the Arabs, and do "God" knows what to the millions of Jews there.

And also eat hummus.

Less Hamas.

More Hummus!

 

 

Well, the Hamas is not doing a very good job of taking over all of Israel are they? Whereas Israel is doing a pretty good impression of taking over all Palestinian land.

 

Israel has been fighting for more than 66 years now..aren’t you tired of sending you sons and daughters to war, instead of allowing them to enjoy the best years of their lives? As Albert Einstein said “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”

 

A mere 12 years after the end of World War 2, we had the establishment of the EU in Europe. How about a few more far sighted Israeli politicians?

 

Give peace a chance by making some realistic compromises. Ratchet down the blockade of Gaza as the rockets cease. Don’t make impossible demands that you know Hamas can’t meet like insisting they virtually  surrender. Give people room to move. Don’t back them into a corner. Otherwise this is all going to happen again and again...more Israeli parents attending their children’s funerals.

 

 

There you go again with them arbitrary historical starting points in time. As if European history started at WW2. As if

Europe did not witness fighting for hundreds of years.

 

And once again with the ongoing charade that the Palestinians are all for peace and it is just that Israel is unwilling to.

Such one-sided views are ridiculous at best.

 

And yet another cunning plan: take off the blockade as rocket fire ease. Great thinking. Taking down the blockade,

allow Hamas to rearm itself, and the whole thing will be repeated a wee earlier. I notice that there is nothing about

monitoring, inspections or the like in your post. Israel should give something in return for a promise. Think we did

cover this bit of nonsense in another topic.

 

 

That’s a ridiculous analogy. You mean to say you want the Arab/ Israeli conflict to last a few more centuries before peace can be achieved to emulate Europe’s experience? Israel was founded just after World War 2 ended. Be honest enough to put things in their historical milieu. There were far sighted European politicians around then who worked for peace within an EU. Obviously there’s been a dearth of such in Israel apart from Yitzak Rabin. Palestinians ditto.

 

The Arab peace plan has been on the table since 2002. Israel constantly puts obstacles in the way, building colonies in the West Bank, moving the goalposts and insisting on recognition of the Jewish State of Israel as a precondition for talks, the blockade of Gaza which just creates a festering sore of bitterness that Israel can prick now and then to put peace negotiations back a few more years.

 

Of course Israel could inspect and monitor. I said that previously but you failed to read it. Cement for tunnels and rockets can come in through Egyptian tunnels anyway. It’s silly to say that Israel can never have an agreement because they can’t ever trust Hamas.It's got to start somewhere. I talked about a gradual tit for tat goodwill... no rockets for a month, we will reciprocate a little, 2 months etc etc You and I both know Israel could reverse the process over a long weekend, if they wished.

 

I am certainly glad a Jeremiah like you isn’t part of a peace delegation.

Edited August 7, 2014 by dexterm

[Scott]

Stay on topic.   This is not about the IRA.  

 

An inflammatory post and reply have been deleted.  

[GentlemanJim]

 

 

 

What then is a prudent policy for the international community towards Hamas, especially in the aftermath of its takeover of Gaza? The answer is a united front and a consistent policy, demanding and insisting on the acceptance of the three principles laid out by the Quartet (United States, United Nations, European Union and Russia): recognition of Israel's right to exist, renouncing and ending terrorism, and accepting all prior agreements and understandings achieved between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.
These are sensible principles. If Hamas were to accept these principles, abandon its radical beliefs and, like the IRA transform itself into a partner for dialogue, it could join the peace process and put an end to the suffering of the Palestinian people. Indeed, if Hamas stops rocket attacks on Israeli towns and villages and releases the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, it can pave the way for an immediate and stable ceasefire in the Gaza region.
Unfortunately, given the intransigent ideological and religious foundations behind Hamas' violent actions, such an expectation is quite unrealistic. Instead, Middle East peace would better be served by supporting the moderate Palestinian leadership in their effort to lead their people to a reasonable compromise - a path which Israel as well is willing to take.

 

Israel's ambassador to Ireland tells it exactly like it is.   

 

 

I think more like, Ireland's Senator David Norris tells it EXACTLY like it is.

 

 

Does that mean also you disagree with what the ambassador wrote? If so, what specifically do you disagree with in the comparison he made? Is there any part of what he wrote that you do agree with? Do you believe the IRA and Hamas are the same?

 

 

No, the IRA and Hamas are not the same. Hamas were created by Israel, that is well documented. The IRA were not created and nurtured by the British Government. Israel have the demon child they wanted with Hamas, and the Ambassador is fully appraised of that. The agenda for Israel is clear and it is disingenuous of the Ambassador to suggest otherwise.

 

The situation does not warrant or deserve the un-discriminatory slaughter being dished out by Israel. Simple.

[ravip]

If one could think rationally, I emphasize the word rationally, who really is to be blamed for ALL the innocent blood that is shed today?

I mean the ROOT cause?

(A very unpalatable subject, indeed)

[GentlemanJim]

 

 

 

 

 

Does that mean also you disagree with what the ambassador wrote? If so, what specifically do you disagree with in the comparison he made? Is there any part of what he wrote that you do agree with? Do you believe the IRA and Hamas are the same?

 

 

No, the IRA and Hamas are not the same. Hamas were created by Israel, that is well documented. The IRA were not created and nurtured by the British Government. Israel have the demon child they wanted with Hamas, and the Ambassador is fully appraised of that. The agenda for Israel is clear and it is disingenuous of the Ambassador to suggest otherwise.

 

The situation does not warrant or deserve the un-discriminatory slaughter being dished out by Israel. Simple.

 

Hamas created by Israel?

What could Israel gain from that?

 

 

Do some good independent reading. It is pointless saying anything on these threads,as wherever you are pointed to read, one side or the other will claim 'conspiracy site'  so just choose to read where you want, if you have a genuine interest. Have this as a starter for 10 from the Washington Post then google to your hearts content

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/

 

Bear in mind during your reading what is going on in the Middle East and remember: 

 

"According to the founding father of Zionism Theodore Herzl, “the area of the Jewish State stretches: “From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.”  According to Rabbi Fischmann,  “The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon.”

 

Then you can put 2 and 2 together and see what you come up with.

 

Edited August 7, 2014 by GentlemanJim

[Ulysses G.]

Hamas created by Israel?

Another dishonest talking point.
Hamas was founded by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and, in the beginning, the group were not violent. They actually started out as a genuine charity. Israel hoped they would be an alternative to the PLO - who were still involved in terrorism in a big way - and cooperated with them until they turned to violence.

[CBR250]

If one could think rationally, I emphasize the word rationally, who really is to be blamed for ALL the innocent blood that is shed today?

I mean the ROOT cause?

(A very unpalatable subject, indeed)

 

One obvious candidate as a ROOT cause is religious fundamentalism. Not only in Hamas, either.

The Times of Israel reported that, at the start of the war on July 9th, an official IDF dispatch sent to Battalion and company commanders by Givati Brigadier Commander Colonel Ofer Winter read:

"History has chosen us to spearhead the fighting against the terrorist Gazan enemy which abuses, blasphemes and curses the God of Israel's forces". (Reported in Thomas Friedman's column, International NY Times, 7th July, p9).

 

Reminds me of some messages from the Taliban. Nothing like a bit of religious fanaticism to keep up morale of the troops, eh? And he doesn't bother with the pretense of targetting Hamas. It's Gazans that he says is fighting. This could be a fun one to explain away at a War Crimes Tribunal hearing.

 

[GentlemanJim]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

 

 

Hamas created by Israel?

Another dishonest talking point.
Hamas was founded by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and, in the beginning, the group were not violent. They actually started out as a genuine charity. Israel hoped they would be an alternative to the PLO - who were still involved in terrorism in a big way - and cooperated with them until they turned to violence.

 

 

You are 20% of the way there Ulysses, Now carry on reading if you dare and be a little bit less economical with the truth. I have no axe to grind with either side and have no personal involvement, maybe that's why I can see how disgraceful this entire situation is and others on here display a complete lack of any compassion for innocent women and children. Saying it is Hamas' fault is a cop out As CBR250 nicely quotes above from the Israeli General

 

"History has chosen us to spearhead the fighting against the terrorist Gazan enemy which abuses, blasphemes and curses the God of Israel's forces". (Reported in Thomas Friedman's column, International NY Times, 7th July, p9).

 

Sad! I don't think God will want ANY Christian, Jew or Muslim in Heaven. The only ones that will get safe passage are the atheists, at least their only crime was they didn't believe in him, whereas all the others seem to want to kill in his name.

[Ulysses G.]

And he doesn't bother with the pretense of targetting Hamas. It's Gazans that he says is fighting.

Last I heard, Gaza was governed by Hamas. When someone is at war with the US, they don't say that they are fighting the "Democrat Party."
As far as the religious stuff goes, Israel is a Jewish Nation. Where I come from, it is pretty common for the military to refer to God and religion to bolster the troops.

Millions of people died in Russia and China under communist governments. Those governments were both secular and atheistic, but if anyone is going to "hell", the leaders of those atheistic countries will be at the front of the line. Edited August 7, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

I have no axe to grind with either side and have no personal involvement

Please save that nonsense for someone who has not been reading your posts for years. It is interesting how so many obvious haters of Israel claim to be "unbiased" and do nothing but demonize Israel at every opportunity.
At least the posters who prefer Israel to Islamic extremism are honest about it. Edited August 7, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[ravip]

 

If one could think rationally, I emphasize the word rationally, who really is to be blamed for ALL the innocent blood that is shed today?

I mean the ROOT cause?

(A very unpalatable subject, indeed)

 

One obvious candidate as a ROOT cause is religious fundamentalism. Not only in Hamas, either.

The Times of Israel reported that, at the start of the war on July 9th, an official IDF dispatch sent to Battalion and company commanders by Givati Brigadier Commander Colonel Ofer Winter read:

"History has chosen us to spearhead the fighting against the terrorist Gazan enemy which abuses, blasphemes and curses the God of Israel's forces". (Reported in Thomas Friedman's column, International NY Times, 7th July, p9).

 

Reminds me of some messages from the Taliban. Nothing like a bit of religious fanaticism to keep up morale of the troops, eh? And he doesn't bother with the pretense of targetting Hamas. It's Gazans that he says is fighting. This could be a fun one to explain away at a War Crimes Tribunal hearing.

 

 

 religious fundamentalism

 

Yes I agree. But, this is a very insignificant part of the whole situation today. This IS the crude way of making trouble.

 

But the REAL issue is the ROOT cause - the people who are very cunning and subtle in their actions. No one talks about them. They are the saviors of the human kind.

 

Please do correct me if the above is wrong.

 

Edit

But... the writings on the wall are very clear of things to come.

Unfortunately, this is not the forum to comment on that and there are no forums created for that, either.

 

Edited August 7, 2014 by ravip

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

Yes, it is a war.

Israel wants to live in peace, to stop having to send every generation to existential war, and to eat hummus.

Hamas wants to take over all of Israel for the Arabs, and do "God" knows what to the millions of Jews there.

And also eat hummus.

Less Hamas.

More Hummus!

 

 

Well, the Hamas is not doing a very good job of taking over all of Israel are they? Whereas Israel is doing a pretty good impression of taking over all Palestinian land.

 

Israel has been fighting for more than 66 years now..aren’t you tired of sending you sons and daughters to war, instead of allowing them to enjoy the best years of their lives? As Albert Einstein said “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”

 

A mere 12 years after the end of World War 2, we had the establishment of the EU in Europe. How about a few more far sighted Israeli politicians?

 

Give peace a chance by making some realistic compromises. Ratchet down the blockade of Gaza as the rockets cease. Don’t make impossible demands that you know Hamas can’t meet like insisting they virtually  surrender. Give people room to move. Don’t back them into a corner. Otherwise this is all going to happen again and again...more Israeli parents attending their children’s funerals.

 

 

There you go again with them arbitrary historical starting points in time. As if European history started at WW2. As if

Europe did not witness fighting for hundreds of years.

 

And once again with the ongoing charade that the Palestinians are all for peace and it is just that Israel is unwilling to.

Such one-sided views are ridiculous at best.

 

And yet another cunning plan: take off the blockade as rocket fire ease. Great thinking. Taking down the blockade,

allow Hamas to rearm itself, and the whole thing will be repeated a wee earlier. I notice that there is nothing about

monitoring, inspections or the like in your post. Israel should give something in return for a promise. Think we did

cover this bit of nonsense in another topic.

 

 

That’s a ridiculous analogy. You mean to say you want the Arab/ Israeli conflict to last a few more centuries before peace can be achieved to emulate Europe’s experience? Israel was founded just after World War 2 ended. Be honest enough to put things in their historical milieu. There were far sighted European politicians around then who worked for peace within an EU. Obviously there’s been a dearth of such in Israel apart from Yitzak Rabin. Palestinians ditto.

 

The Arab peace plan has been on the table since 2002. Israel constantly puts obstacles in the way, building colonies in the West Bank, moving the goalposts and insisting on recognition of the Jewish State of Israel as a precondition for talks, the blockade of Gaza which just creates a festering sore of bitterness that Israel can prick now and then to put peace negotiations back a few more years.

 

Of course Israel could inspect and monitor. I said that previously but you failed to read it. Cement for tunnels and rockets can come in through Egyptian tunnels anyway. It’s silly to say that Israel can never have an agreement because they can’t ever trust Hamas.It's got to start somewhere. I talked about a gradual tit for tat goodwill... no rockets for a month, we will reciprocate a little, 2 months etc etc You and I both know Israel could reverse the process over a long weekend, if they wished.

 

I am certainly glad a Jeremiah like you isn’t part of a peace delegation.

 

 

No, I do not mean that I want the conflict to last hundreds of years, I am just saying that European history did not start post WW2, and that it took quite a lot of wars, years and blood until everyone got tired of this and figured out a better way to go about it. Acknowledging historical processes take time has nothing to do with my personal wishes. Sorry if this was a too complicated notion for you to understand from my original post.

 

The European situation, apart from having the dubious benefit of coming to fruit after a much longer time, was a bit easier to sort, with religious differences being less prominent, and national heritage not as muddled with religion as well.

 

The Arab Peace Initiative was rejected by Hamas, something which you keep ignoring. Of the two remaining neighbors of Israel not to have a peace treaty, Lebanon was never in a position to sign anything meaningful, and Syria currently in the same situation. For all that, I have already stated that this was a missed opportunity for Israel, in the sense that even if it would not have brought peace with the Palestinians or Lebanon, it could have provided some bridgeheads and possibly better relationship with other Arab countries. My negative opinions of both the illegal settlements and the Israel-as-a-Jewish-State thing were aired in numerous posts on these topics.

 

The blockade has more to do with Hamas conduct and ideology than with anything else. Your opinion and agreement for monitoring and inspections does not reflect the Hamas's position. With Egypt clamping down on smuggling operations, it is getting harder for Hamas to bring in some things, and this, in part, is what led to the current crisis. There are quite a few articles covering the "cement trail", and it is more complicated a picture than simply saying it comes through Egypt.

 

I do not think that you quite grasp the fallacy of the trade proposed in your post: Hamas holds fire for however months it takes to re-stock and re-build relevant facilities. What exactly holds Hamas back from re-starting hostilities, and from the same position? Without actual effective monitoring by an accepted third party, this is a meaningless promise.

[Morch]

 

If one could think rationally, I emphasize the word rationally, who really is to be blamed for ALL the innocent blood that is shed today?

I mean the ROOT cause?

(A very unpalatable subject, indeed)

 

One obvious candidate as a ROOT cause is religious fundamentalism. Not only in Hamas, either.

The Times of Israel reported that, at the start of the war on July 9th, an official IDF dispatch sent to Battalion and company commanders by Givati Brigadier Commander Colonel Ofer Winter read:

"History has chosen us to spearhead the fighting against the terrorist Gazan enemy which abuses, blasphemes and curses the God of Israel's forces". (Reported in Thomas Friedman's column, International NY Times, 7th July, p9).

 

Reminds me of some messages from the Taliban. Nothing like a bit of religious fanaticism to keep up morale of the troops, eh? And he doesn't bother with the pretense of targetting Hamas. It's Gazans that he says is fighting. This could be a fun one to explain away at a War Crimes Tribunal hearing.

 

 

 

Haven't read Friedman's column on this, so not aware if he bothered to mention the controversy this saying  caused within

Israel. Many did not like that one bit. Hardly represents all of Israel or all of the IDF. 
 

[dr_lucas]

 

 

 

 

 

Israel's ambassador to Ireland tells it exactly like it is.   

 

 

I think more like, Ireland's Senator David Norris tells it EXACTLY like it is.

 

 

Does that mean also you disagree with what the ambassador wrote? If so, what specifically do you disagree with in the comparison he made? Is there any part of what he wrote that you do agree with? Do you believe the IRA and Hamas are the same?

 

 

No, the IRA and Hamas are not the same. Hamas were created by Israel, that is well documented. The IRA were not created and nurtured by the British Government. Israel have the demon child they wanted with Hamas, and the Ambassador is fully appraised of that. The agenda for Israel is clear and it is disingenuous of the Ambassador to suggest otherwise.

 

The situation does not warrant or deserve the un-discriminatory slaughter being dished out by Israel. Simple.

 

 

UG was actually quite accurate, not just 20%. If you have more factual information to share to add to your claimed 80%, please enlighten us.

In any case, how or who created Hamas political movement around 30 years ago (it was a charity & political movement before it became an active militant organization) which you refer to is irrelevant, especially since Hamas was not created to be a terror group, it was created in hopes that it will be a moderate political alternative to the the murderous PLO terror organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization), and in hopes it will weaken the PLO and eventually lead to a peace agreement.

Israel did not create it (even your own W.P. article doesn't say that), although it did encourage its creation for the above reasons (From your W.P. article: "Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy."), and obviously not because it wanted or expected it to transform to a "demon child" as you put it or the vicious radical-Islamic terror organization it gradually became and which it is nowadays.

 

Ironically it was the PLO that eventually became more moderate (while Hamas was becoming more and more radical) and its leaders (Arafat, Abbas & co.) were the ones who were part of the (beginning of the) peace process and Oslo accords.

 

That said, all of this, of course, got nothing much to do with the questions I asked you.

Edited August 7, 2014 by dr_lucas

[GentlemanJim]

 

 

 

Does that mean also you disagree with what the ambassador wrote? If so, what specifically do you disagree with in the comparison he made? Is there any part of what he wrote that you do agree with? Do you believe the IRA and Hamas are the same?

 

 

No, the IRA and Hamas are not the same. Hamas were created by Israel, that is well documented. The IRA were not created and nurtured by the British Government. Israel have the demon child they wanted with Hamas, and the Ambassador is fully appraised of that. The agenda for Israel is clear and it is disingenuous of the Ambassador to suggest otherwise.

 

The situation does not warrant or deserve the un-discriminatory slaughter being dished out by Israel. Simple.

 

 

UG was actually quite accurate, not just 20%. If you have more factual information to share to add to your claimed 80%, please enlighten us.

In any case, how or who created Hamas political movement around 30 years ago (it was a charity & political movement before it became an active militant organization) which you refer to is irrelevant, especially since Hamas was not created to be a terror group, it was created in hopes that it will be a moderate political alternative to the the murderous PLO terror organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization), and in hopes it will weaken the PLO and eventually lead to a peace agreement.

Israel did not create it (even your own W.P. article doesn't say that), although it did encourage its creation for the above reasons (From your W.P. article: "Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy."), and obviously not because it wanted or expected it to transform to a "demon child" as you put it or the vicious radical-Islamic terror organization it gradually became and which it is nowadays.

 

Ironically it was the PLO that eventually became more moderate (while Hamas was becoming more and more radical) and its leaders (Arafat, Abbas & co.) were the ones who were part of the (beginning of the) peace process and Oslo accords.

 

That said, all of this, of course, got nothing much to do with the questions I asked you.

 

No it hasn't really, I answered the questions you asked me. And try having a decent sniff around and you will see that UG was actually not quite accurate.

Please stop quoting Wiki for any perspective on reality. I am quite sure we never created the Mujahadeen to be a terror group either did we? We obviously didn't seem to learn from that either. Creating another 'Political' group and making them popular through populist policies was a bit of an error - or was it?

 

You seem to have just quoted a 'nice bit from the WP article.

 

 

Yassin's Mujama would become Hamas, which, it can be argued, was Israel's Taliban: an Islamist group whose antecedents had been laid down by the West in a battle against a leftist enemy. Israel jailed Yassin in 1984 on a 12-year sentence after the discovery of hidden arms caches, but he was released a year later. The Israelis must have been more worried about other enemies.Eventually, the tables turned. After the 1993 Oslo accords, Israel's formal recognition of the PLO and the start of what we now know as the peace process, Hamas was the Israelis' bete noire. Hamas refused to accept Israel or renounce violence and became perhaps the leading institution of Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation, which, far beyond religious ideology, is the main reason for its continued popularity among Palestinians.

Yassin was killed in an Israeli airstrike in 2004. In 2007, after a legitimate Hamas election victory that rankled both the West and Fatah, the Islamist group took over Gaza — a move that led to strict Israeli blockades and the grinding cycle of conflict that is once more repeating itself.

But, as Aaron David Miller, a Middle East expert at the Woodrow Wilson Center, observes, a strange, self-sustaining relationship remains. Israel's hawkish government — comprising many politicians who have little interest in seeing the creation of a separate Palestinian state — dwells on the security threat that Hamas's crude rockets pose. Hamas depends, Miller writes, on "an ideology and strategy steeped in confrontation and resistance.

 

Israel created Hamas to drive a wedge between Fatah and the Palestinians!.....and it worked perfectly.

Edited August 7, 2014 by GentlemanJim

[dexterm]

Morch,

 

Your first paragraph is just verbose vague nonsense.  What on earth do your weasel words “It took quite a lot of wars , years, and blood” actually mean? How long is “quite a lot” for the course of the Arab/Israeli conflict to run, before peace can be achieved? You patronize me, but I don’t think you understand your own turgid prose.

 

Well then if Israel can’t at the moment deal with Lebanon, Syria, Iraq or Hamas, then deal with the people you can make peace with...the PA, and other Arab countries, with the simple expedient of negotiating the permanent borders with a Palestinian state. Just as Israel negotiated a peace separately with Egypt. The rest (Golan Heights_Syria and Shebaa Farms_Lebanon) can follow down the track, with the main stumbling block, the West Bank and Jerusalem, sorted.

 

Cement and rockets are going to get into Gaza one way or the other if Hamas wants them to, so accept that. I am all in favour of 3^rd party observers..UN, US, Israeli, Egyptian, NATO, EU or combo  whoever. The thing that would hold back Hamas from re-starting hostilities are easy...

 

(1) lifting the blockade so that people start leading normal lives. When folks are employed, they have no time for tunnel building, and no desire to go back to the bad old days of the last month, seeing their homes and loved ones being shredded to pieces.

 

(2) no provocative acts by Israel such as targeted assassinations and imprisoning Hamas members for crimes with charge or trial.

 

Trust has got to start somewhere. Then just edge forward, and see where it takes you.

[GentlemanJim]

 

 

If one could think rationally, I emphasize the word rationally, who really is to be blamed for ALL the innocent blood that is shed today?

I mean the ROOT cause?

(A very unpalatable subject, indeed)

 

One obvious candidate as a ROOT cause is religious fundamentalism. Not only in Hamas, either.

The Times of Israel reported that, at the start of the war on July 9th, an official IDF dispatch sent to Battalion and company commanders by Givati Brigadier Commander Colonel Ofer Winter read:

"History has chosen us to spearhead the fighting against the terrorist Gazan enemy which abuses, blasphemes and curses the God of Israel's forces". (Reported in Thomas Friedman's column, International NY Times, 7th July, p9).

 

Reminds me of some messages from the Taliban. Nothing like a bit of religious fanaticism to keep up morale of the troops, eh? And he doesn't bother with the pretense of targetting Hamas. It's Gazans that he says is fighting. This could be a fun one to explain away at a War Crimes Tribunal hearing.

 

 

 

Haven't read Friedman's column on this, so not aware if he bothered to mention the controversy this saying  caused within

Israel. Many did not like that one bit. Hardly represents all of Israel or all of the IDF. 
 

 

I am quite sure that the same can be said about the threats of violence from Hamas. Many Palestinians do not like that one bit either, Hardly represents all the Palestinians or the voices of the 1000 innocent women and children that have become 'collateral damage'. Actually there have been that many innocent civilians killed that it is the Hamas terrorists that have become the collateral damage. It has been a policy of - lets just bomb everything and we will hit some at least. Meanwhile the innocents pay the price, while we all postulate and pour another cold beer while permitting this to happen.

[dr_lucas]

 

 

No, the IRA and Hamas are not the same. Hamas were created by Israel, that is well documented. The IRA were not created and nurtured by the British Government. Israel have the demon child they wanted with Hamas, and the Ambassador is fully appraised of that. The agenda for Israel is clear and it is disingenuous of the Ambassador to suggest otherwise.

 

 

 

 

The situation does not warrant or deserve the un-discriminatory slaughter being dished out by Israel. Simple.

 

 

UG was actually quite accurate, not just 20%. If you have more factual information to share to add to your claimed 80%, please enlighten us.

In any case, how or who created Hamas political movement around 30 years ago (it was a charity & political movement before it became an active militant organization) which you refer to is irrelevant, especially since Hamas was not created to be a terror group, it was created in hopes that it will be a moderate political alternative to the the murderous PLO terror organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization), and in hopes it will weaken the PLO and eventually lead to a peace agreement.

Israel did not create it (even your own W.P. article doesn't say that), although it did encourage its creation for the above reasons (From your W.P. article: "Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy."), and obviously not because it wanted or expected it to transform to a "demon child" as you put it or the vicious radical-Islamic terror organization it gradually became and which it is nowadays.

 

Ironically it was the PLO that eventually became more moderate (while Hamas was becoming more and more radical) and its leaders (Arafat, Abbas & co.) were the ones who were part of the (beginning of the) peace process and Oslo accords.

 

That said, all of this, of course, got nothing much to do with the questions I asked you.

 

No it hasn't really, I answered the questions you asked me. And try having a decent sniff around and you will see that UG was actually not quite accurate.

Please stop quoting Wiki for any perspective on reality.

 

You seem to have just quoted a 'nice bit from the WP article.

 

 

Yassin's Mujama would become Hamas, which, it can be argued, was Israel's Taliban: an Islamist group whose antecedents had been laid down by the West in a battle against a leftist enemy. Israel jailed Yassin in 1984 on a 12-year sentence after the discovery of hidden arms caches, but he was released a year later. The Israelis must have been more worried about other enemies.Eventually, the tables turned. After the 1993 Oslo accords, Israel's formal recognition of the PLO and the start of what we now know as the peace process, Hamas was the Israelis' bete noire. Hamas refused to accept Israel or renounce violence and became perhaps the leading institution of Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation, which, far beyond religious ideology, is the main reason for its continued popularity among Palestinians.

Yassin was killed in an Israeli airstrike in 2004. In 2007, after a legitimate Hamas election victory that rankled both the West and Fatah, the Islamist group took over Gaza — a move that led to strict Israeli blockades and the grinding cycle of conflict that is once more repeating itself.

But, as Aaron David Miller, a Middle East expert at the Woodrow Wilson Center, observes, a strange, self-sustaining relationship remains. Israel's hawkish government — comprising many politicians who have little interest in seeing the creation of a separate Palestinian state — dwells on the security threat that Hamas's crude rockets pose. Hamas depends, Miller writes, on "an ideology and strategy steeped in confrontation and resistance.

 

Israel created Hamas to drive a wedge between Fatah and the Palestinians!

 

 

Created? Again? Even your article does not say Israel created it. Where did it say Israel created it? Where do you read "Israel created Hamas to drive a wedge between Fatah and the Palestinians!"? Did you miss the part that it was initially established as a charity and political movement, non militant, and "Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy. "? Doesn't look like the right way to drive a wedge anywhere.

 

Aaron David Miller is only criticizing the current government (not any previous Israeli government),  saying that in his opinion the current ("hawkish") government does not have interest to wipe it. An opinion he has the right to express, not necessarily a fact obviously. Some would agree, some wouldn't.

Israel had multiple governments before, some of them were not right wing government or "hawkish" government as A.D.M defines the current one: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/16/israel_and_hamas_need_each_other_palestine_gaza

As I said, it was created as an (initially) moderate alternative to the PLO.

 

Edited August 7, 2014 by dr_lucas

[GentlemanJim]

 

 

 

UG was actually quite accurate, not just 20%. If you have more factual information to share to add to your claimed 80%, please enlighten us.

In any case, how or who created Hamas political movement around 30 years ago (it was a charity & political movement before it became an active militant organization) which you refer to is irrelevant, especially since Hamas was not created to be a terror group, it was created in hopes that it will be a moderate political alternative to the the murderous PLO terror organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization), and in hopes it will weaken the PLO and eventually lead to a peace agreement.

Israel did not create it (even your own W.P. article doesn't say that), although it did encourage its creation for the above reasons (From your W.P. article: "Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy."), and obviously not because it wanted or expected it to transform to a "demon child" as you put it or the vicious radical-Islamic terror organization it gradually became and which it is nowadays.

 

Ironically it was the PLO that eventually became more moderate (while Hamas was becoming more and more radical) and its leaders (Arafat, Abbas & co.) were the ones who were part of the (beginning of the) peace process and Oslo accords.

 

That said, all of this, of course, got nothing much to do with the questions I asked you.

 

No it hasn't really, I answered the questions you asked me. And try having a decent sniff around and you will see that UG was actually not quite accurate.

Please stop quoting Wiki for any perspective on reality.

 

You seem to have just quoted a 'nice bit from the WP article.

 

 

Yassin's Mujama would become Hamas, which, it can be argued, was Israel's Taliban: an Islamist group whose antecedents had been laid down by the West in a battle against a leftist enemy. Israel jailed Yassin in 1984 on a 12-year sentence after the discovery of hidden arms caches, but he was released a year later. The Israelis must have been more worried about other enemies.Eventually, the tables turned. After the 1993 Oslo accords, Israel's formal recognition of the PLO and the start of what we now know as the peace process, Hamas was the Israelis' bete noire. Hamas refused to accept Israel or renounce violence and became perhaps the leading institution of Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation, which, far beyond religious ideology, is the main reason for its continued popularity among Palestinians.

Yassin was killed in an Israeli airstrike in 2004. In 2007, after a legitimate Hamas election victory that rankled both the West and Fatah, the Islamist group took over Gaza — a move that led to strict Israeli blockades and the grinding cycle of conflict that is once more repeating itself.

But, as Aaron David Miller, a Middle East expert at the Woodrow Wilson Center, observes, a strange, self-sustaining relationship remains. Israel's hawkish government — comprising many politicians who have little interest in seeing the creation of a separate Palestinian state — dwells on the security threat that Hamas's crude rockets pose. Hamas depends, Miller writes, on "an ideology and strategy steeped in confrontation and resistance.

 

Israel created Hamas to drive a wedge between Fatah and the Palestinians!

 

 

Created? Again? Even your article does not say Israel created it. Where did it say Israel created it? Where do you read "Israel created Hamas to drive a wedge between Fatah and the Palestinians!"? Did you miss the part that it was initially established as a charity and political movement, non militant, and "Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy. "? Doesn't look like the right way to drive a wedge anywhere.

 

Aaron David Miller is only criticizing the current government (not any previous Israeli government),  saying that in his opinion the current ("hawkish") government does not have interest to wipe it. An opinion he has the right to express, not necessarily a fact obviously. Some would agree, some wouldn't.

Israel had multiple governments before, some of them were not right wing government or "hawkish" government as A.D.M defines the current one: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/16/israel_and_hamas_need_each_other_palestine_gaza

As I said, it was created as an (initially) moderate alternative to the PLO.

 

 

You say "Created? Again? Even your article does not say Israel created it. Where did it say Israel created it? "

 

Well blimey surely the title of the Washington Post article is a bit of a give away?

 

"How Israel helped create Hamas"

Then you say "Where do you read "Israel created Hamas to drive a wedge between Fatah and the Palestinians!"?"

 

You don't just think I have read one article on this subject do you? I have read lots, Pro Israeli, Pro Palestine and weeded it all out till I just got news, objective news. As you say in your signature block - Informed Opinion. The objective conclusion is what it is whether I like it or not, it is what it is. There are other articles linked to by Washington Post, read those as well.

[dr_lucas]

 

 

No it hasn't really, I answered the questions you asked me. And try having a decent sniff around and you will see that UG was actually not quite accurate.

 

 

 

Please stop quoting Wiki for any perspective on reality.

 

You seem to have just quoted a 'nice bit from the WP article.

 

 

Yassin's Mujama would become Hamas, which, it can be argued, was Israel's Taliban: an Islamist group whose antecedents had been laid down by the West in a battle against a leftist enemy. Israel jailed Yassin in 1984 on a 12-year sentence after the discovery of hidden arms caches, but he was released a year later. The Israelis must have been more worried about other enemies.Eventually, the tables turned. After the 1993 Oslo accords, Israel's formal recognition of the PLO and the start of what we now know as the peace process, Hamas was the Israelis' bete noire. Hamas refused to accept Israel or renounce violence and became perhaps the leading institution of Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation, which, far beyond religious ideology, is the main reason for its continued popularity among Palestinians.

Yassin was killed in an Israeli airstrike in 2004. In 2007, after a legitimate Hamas election victory that rankled both the West and Fatah, the Islamist group took over Gaza — a move that led to strict Israeli blockades and the grinding cycle of conflict that is once more repeating itself.

But, as Aaron David Miller, a Middle East expert at the Woodrow Wilson Center, observes, a strange, self-sustaining relationship remains. Israel's hawkish government — comprising many politicians who have little interest in seeing the creation of a separate Palestinian state — dwells on the security threat that Hamas's crude rockets pose. Hamas depends, Miller writes, on "an ideology and strategy steeped in confrontation and resistance.

 

Israel created Hamas to drive a wedge between Fatah and the Palestinians!

 

 

Created? Again? Even your article does not say Israel created it. Where did it say Israel created it? Where do you read "Israel created Hamas to drive a wedge between Fatah and the Palestinians!"? Did you miss the part that it was initially established as a charity and political movement, non militant, and "Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy. "? Doesn't look like the right way to drive a wedge anywhere.

 

Aaron David Miller is only criticizing the current government (not any previous Israeli government),  saying that in his opinion the current ("hawkish") government does not have interest to wipe it. An opinion he has the right to express, not necessarily a fact obviously. Some would agree, some wouldn't.

Israel had multiple governments before, some of them were not right wing government or "hawkish" government as A.D.M defines the current one: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/16/israel_and_hamas_need_each_other_palestine_gaza

As I said, it was created as an (initially) moderate alternative to the PLO.

 

 

You say "Created? Again? Even your article does not say Israel created it. Where did it say Israel created it? "

 

Well blimey surely the title of the Washington Post article is a bit of a give away?

 

"How Israel helped create Hamas"

Then you say "Where do you read "Israel created Hamas to drive a wedge between Fatah and the Palestinians!"?"

 

You don't just think I have read one article on this subject do you? I have read lots, Pro Israeli, Pro Palestine and weeded it all out till I just got news, objective news. As you say in your signature block - Informed Opinion. The objective conclusion is what it is whether I like it or not, it is what it is. There are other articles linked to by Washington Post, read those as well.

 

 

Titles are just titles, meant to attract readers. It did, by the way say "helped create" and not created. The article clearly states " To a certain degree, the Islamist organization whose militant wing has rained rockets on Israel the past few weeks has the Jewish state to thank for its existence."

It does not state it created it and it clearly explains what the meaning of the title was later on in the same article, paragraphs I cited. No need to twist the words. If nothing else, the article proves exactly the opposite of your claim  "Israel created Hamas to drive a wedge between Fatah and the Palestinians!"  ("Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy. ")

If you have other Washington Post articles which support your opinion and clearly say that "Israel created Hamas to drive a wedge between Fatah and the Palestinians!", please post the links.

Edited August 7, 2014 by dr_lucas

[Morch]

Morch,

 

Your first paragraph is just verbose vague nonsense.  What on earth do your weasel words “It took quite a lot of wars , years, and blood” actually mean? How long is “quite a lot” for the course of the Arab/Israeli conflict to run, before peace can be achieved? You patronize me, but I don’t think you understand your own turgid prose.

 

Well then if Israel can’t at the moment deal with Lebanon, Syria, Iraq or Hamas, then deal with the people you can make peace with...the PA, and other Arab countries, with the simple expedient of negotiating the permanent borders with a Palestinian state. Just as Israel negotiated a peace separately with Egypt. The rest (Golan Heights_Syria and Shebaa Farms_Lebanon) can follow down the track, with the main stumbling block, the West Bank and Jerusalem, sorted.

 

Cement and rockets are going to get into Gaza one way or the other if Hamas wants them to, so accept that. I am all in favour of 3^rd party observers..UN, US, Israeli, Egyptian, NATO, EU or combo  whoever. The thing that would hold back Hamas from re-starting hostilities are easy...

 

(1) lifting the blockade so that people start leading normal lives. When folks are employed, they have no time for tunnel building, and no desire to go back to the bad old days of the last month, seeing their homes and loved ones being shredded to pieces.

 

(2) no provocative acts by Israel such as targeted assassinations and imprisoning Hamas members for crimes with charge or trial.

 

Trust has got to start somewhere. Then just edge forward, and see where it takes you.

 

What is it that you find hard to understand, exactly?

It took Europe hundreds of years which included wars and blood to arrive at a point in time when people said "enough",

and sorted their mess in a peaceful manner. It doesn't matter if you want to start the counting 500 years ago, a bit less,

a bit more. In relation to this time frame the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is still not that long, really. So perhaps, more of

the same is to follow until people on both sides will say "enough" and sort their mess in a peaceful manner. How long

that might take, I have absolutely no idea. The point was that a comparison between the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and

Europe sorting itself out since WW2 is not applicable.

 

I do not think that I said anything against Israel trying to make peace with whomever it can, and that's precisely what

was meant by the Arab Peace Initiative being a lost opportunity. One hurdle would be the initiative tied a peace deal

with the Palestinians to peace deals with other Arab countries.  Another problem area would be that making any final

agreements with the Palestinians is not possible with the Hamas/Fatah split. Signing a peace deal with the PA (now

dominated by Fatah) could prove next to meaningless if elections are held and Hamas wins. Doubt even Abbas and

the Fatah will be eager to sign permanent agreements without national unity to back them up.

 

One of the main factors leading to this conflict was Egypt getting efficient with their part of the blockade, and greatly

reducing the flow of smuggled goods into the Gaza Strip. Things were going the way Hamas wanted at all. Asserting

that Hamas can get cement and rockets inside anyway is an exaggeration. If it wasn't much on an issue for then, it

wouldn't be the main item on their list of demands. By the way, the Egyptians are far from keen on changing much

on their side of the border as well.

 

While you may accept monitoring and inspections, up to now the Hamas rejected most of the offers that were raised

over the years. Having an effective system to monitor goods will harm their income, their ability to re-arm, and might

cost them the leverage held over Gazans.

 

We'll know in about 7 hours how things go from here. Hopefully the ceasefire and negotiations will hold.

 

[Morch]

 

 

 

If one could think rationally, I emphasize the word rationally, who really is to be blamed for ALL the innocent blood that is shed today?

I mean the ROOT cause?

(A very unpalatable subject, indeed)

 

One obvious candidate as a ROOT cause is religious fundamentalism. Not only in Hamas, either.

The Times of Israel reported that, at the start of the war on July 9th, an official IDF dispatch sent to Battalion and company commanders by Givati Brigadier Commander Colonel Ofer Winter read:

"History has chosen us to spearhead the fighting against the terrorist Gazan enemy which abuses, blasphemes and curses the God of Israel's forces". (Reported in Thomas Friedman's column, International NY Times, 7th July, p9).

 

Reminds me of some messages from the Taliban. Nothing like a bit of religious fanaticism to keep up morale of the troops, eh? And he doesn't bother with the pretense of targetting Hamas. It's Gazans that he says is fighting. This could be a fun one to explain away at a War Crimes Tribunal hearing.

 

 

 

Haven't read Friedman's column on this, so not aware if he bothered to mention the controversy this saying  caused within

Israel. Many did not like that one bit. Hardly represents all of Israel or all of the IDF. 
 

 

I am quite sure that the same can be said about the threats of violence from Hamas. Many Palestinians do not like that one bit either, Hardly represents all the Palestinians or the voices of the 1000 innocent women and children that have become 'collateral damage'. Actually there have been that many innocent civilians killed that it is the Hamas terrorists that have become the collateral damage. It has been a policy of - lets just bomb everything and we will hit some at least. Meanwhile the innocents pay the price, while we all postulate and pour another cold beer while permitting this to happen.

 

 

Not sure how threats with violence by Hamas come into this. The Hamas is essentially an Islamic movement, so religious

motives in speeches and announcement are common. Winter's words were quite outside of the IDF norm, as far as many

secular Israelis go (and obviously, Israelis of other religions).

[Ulysses G.]

UG was actually quite accurate, not just 20%. If you have more factual information to share to add to your claimed 80%, please enlighten us.

"GentlemanJim" is mad because I left out all the nutty conspiracy theory stuff, that, apparently, he actually believes in. Of course he can't produce any evidence that Israel "created" Hamas", because it is a bunch of hooey. There is a sucker born every minute.

[CBR250]

 

 

If one could think rationally, I emphasize the word rationally, who really is to be blamed for ALL the innocent blood that is shed today?

I mean the ROOT cause?

(A very unpalatable subject, indeed)

 

One obvious candidate as a ROOT cause is religious fundamentalism. Not only in Hamas, either.

The Times of Israel reported that, at the start of the war on July 9th, an official IDF dispatch sent to Battalion and company commanders by Givati Brigadier Commander Colonel Ofer Winter read:

"History has chosen us to spearhead the fighting against the terrorist Gazan enemy which abuses, blasphemes and curses the God of Israel's forces". (Reported in Thomas Friedman's column, International NY Times, 7th July, p9).

 

Reminds me of some messages from the Taliban. Nothing like a bit of religious fanaticism to keep up morale of the troops, eh? And he doesn't bother with the pretense of targetting Hamas. It's Gazans that he says is fighting. This could be a fun one to explain away at a War Crimes Tribunal hearing.

 

 

 

Haven't read Friedman's column on this, so not aware if he bothered to mention the controversy this saying  caused within

Israel. Many did not like that one bit. Hardly represents all of Israel or all of the IDF. 
 

 

 

No, the outrageous statement doesn't represent all of Israel or the IDF. Just the majority. After all, it is the majority who voted in the current Israeli government of murderous fruitcakes. Did Netanyahu condemn this statement? Did Lieberman? Did Moshe Ya'alon? Or perhaps Israel's former Defence Minister Ben-Elieze, who advocates the assassination of Hamas' leaders rather than negotiation?

 

 

[Ulysses G.]

What is "outrageous" about it? It is a pretty typical religious ploy by some guy in the military to whip up the troops before battle. It happens everywhere. 

Edited August 8, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[CBR250]

And if you need further evidence of the twisted motivations of some Israelis and IDF members - some Gazan residents found that their homes had been used as bases by Israeli troops during the war. One such family returning home, the Guardian reported yesterday, to find that IDF soldiers had thrown TV, fridge, and computers from upstairs windows and slashed furniture. The IDF had also carved the words "F--- Hamas" into a concrete wall in the staircase. "Burn Gaza down" and "Good Arab = dead Arab" were engraved on a coffee table in the house.

The Guardian also reports that Beit Hanoun girls' school in Gaza was subject to similar messages of hate from IDF soldiers. "You will be f----- here" and "Don't forget it's time for you to die" were chalked in English on blackboards. Lovely messages to leave for young girls.