Thousands march for Gaza in London, clashes in Paris over Israeli onslaught

[Morch]

 

If you knew my posting history, you would know I have also been critical of Israeli policies ... particularly how strong the right wing is there and the west bank settlements. But that is one thing. Standing up for Hamas in a cheerleading kind of way is something entirely different. I also understand some Jews are anti-Zionist, wish Israel never existed and hope it stops existing, but I think you will find surveys of global Jews still show massive support for the existence of Israel, which of course implies the need to defend itself if it is to continue to exist. Hamas does not want it to exist. Opposing Israeli policies not the same thing as wishing the end of Israel. 

 

 

I have a better idea. Open arms and live alongside their fellow man. Stop stealing their land, stop imprisoning their children. Tear down the barbed wire and the walls. Go back to the 67 borders and live together. Allow Palestine to build and prosper. Palestinian people would stop Hamas and anyone else who threatened their freedom. The UN could go in for the next 10 years to observe Palestinian behaviour. If they fail, then put the barbed wire back up. But they would not fail.  An integrated Israeli /Palestinian land would prosper and could be a jewel of the mediterranean. The people are treading in the land most holiest to 3 billion people and they have well and truly turned the promised land in to hell on Earth. War begets war.Peace might just work, so is therefore worth the risk, especially when you hold the biggest gun.

 

 

This is certainly something to wish for. Does raise the question of how familiar you are with the level of hate existing on both sides, though, as well as with the mentality exhibited by wide tracts of the population.

 

Religious fanaticism does not share the same logic as more reasonable systems of thought do.

 

How would Palestinian stop Hamas? And who would these Palestinians be, considering the wide support  Hamas gets both in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?

 

The UN troops mandate and capabilities limit their usefulness. Last time there were UN officials in a monitoring role on the Gaza Strip they had to evacuate due to Hamas actions. Going back to the current situation after 10 years? Pretty sure that would go smooth with the Palestinians and the international community. Not.

 

It is not that what you describe cannot become a reality. It is just that reality makes it highly unlikely that such a course of action will result in anything resembling your vision.
 

[GentlemanJim]

 

 

If you knew my posting history, you would know I have also been critical of Israeli policies ... particularly how strong the right wing is there and the west bank settlements. But that is one thing. Standing up for Hamas in a cheerleading kind of way is something entirely different. I also understand some Jews are anti-Zionist, wish Israel never existed and hope it stops existing, but I think you will find surveys of global Jews still show massive support for the existence of Israel, which of course implies the need to defend itself if it is to continue to exist. Hamas does not want it to exist. Opposing Israeli policies not the same thing as wishing the end of Israel. 

 

 

I have a better idea. Open arms and live alongside their fellow man. Stop stealing their land, stop imprisoning their children. Tear down the barbed wire and the walls. Go back to the 67 borders and live together. Allow Palestine to build and prosper. Palestinian people would stop Hamas and anyone else who threatened their freedom. The UN could go in for the next 10 years to observe Palestinian behaviour. If they fail, then put the barbed wire back up. But they would not fail.  An integrated Israeli /Palestinian land would prosper and could be a jewel of the mediterranean. The people are treading in the land most holiest to 3 billion people and they have well and truly turned the promised land in to hell on Earth. War begets war.Peace might just work, so is therefore worth the risk, especially when you hold the biggest gun.

 

 

This is certainly something to wish for. Does raise the question of how familiar you are with the level of hate existing

on both sides, though, as well as with the mentality exhibited by wide tracts of the population.

 

Religious fanaticism does not share the same logic as more reasonable systems of thought do.

 

How would Palestinian stop Hamas? And who would these Palestinians be, considering the wide support Hamas

gets both in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?

 

The UN troops mandate and capabilities limit their usefulness. Last time there were UN officials in a monitoring role on

the Gaza Strip they had to evacuate due to Hamas actions. Going back to the current situation after 10 years? Pretty

sure that would go smooth with the Palestinians and the international community. Not.

 

It is not that what you describe cannot become a reality. It is just that reality makes it highly unlikely that such a course

of action will result in anything resembling your vision.
 

 

 

"This is certainly something to wish for. Does raise the question of how familiar you are with the level of hate existing

on both sides, though, as well as with the mentality exhibited by wide tracts of the population."

 

Well if it is even a half of what is being exhibited on TV then their is little hope. (But yes, I know and have worked throughout the ME and Israel, I am very familiar thank you.)

[Morch]

Whatever the cause, it's the ordinary people who suffer. In every case the overwhelming majority of us would prefer to live their lives in peace and prosperity. So, for me, enough is enough everywhere. No history, race, religion or any other label is worth all the killing. We are all people just the same. Forget the divisive and misguided 'war on terror' and let's start a smarter 'war on inhumanity', in all it's forms. Perhaps then, the UK/US etc can reclaim a respect in the world that better reflects the generous spirit of its citizens. We all have the power. It is in the ballot box.

 

 

 

 

 

And how many Hamas have they got so far?

 

Estimates vary. Hamas does not normally admit to militant casualties and forbids pics and clips.

Wonder if the call for "War on Inhumanity" is directed only at Western countries and Israel, though.

Can't say that "We all have the power. It is in the ballot box." applies globally, or even regionally.
 

[dr_lucas]

 

 
I take it you haven't read the Hamas charter calling for the annihilation of all Jews or heard its leaders saying they will not stop until they "liberate" every part of Palestine AND Israel, have you?
 

Oh I have heard all right..... ad nauseam as anyone who has ever read any thread that mentions Israel has.

But one is sticks & stones...words
the other is flechette bombs tearing the flesh from children.

I am not too upset by idle threats made in anger after being treated badly for decades

 

 

 

Stick & Stones? words?  Reminds me of the severely flawed comparison you made with North Korea just  yesterday. How much do you know about radical Islamist terror organizations? I strongly recommend everyone to read  "Making David into Goliath" (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/21/book-review-tracing-the-changed-perception-of-isra/)

 

These are not just empty words or idle threats. I am afraid the facts disagree with you:  Suicide bombers in restaurants, buses, shopping malls, markets, all targeting and killing innocent civilians, tearing the flesh and body parts off hundreds of innocent babies, children, mothers, fathers. Causing temporary or permanent  disability to thousands of innocents Israelis.

 

Thousands of rockets being fired from Gaza, causing the death of 28 innocent Israeli civilians, injure over 1970 innocent Israeli civilians, including innocent babies, children, mothers, fathers.  Not to mention thousands of additional random armed assaults, kidnapping, murders of innocent Israelis.  Not to mention terrorist attacks and suicide bombings killing innocent Israeli civilians (including many children) & Jews worldwide.  None of the above were used as human shields by Israel. Hamas does use his people and prides itself of it.  Idle threats....right...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2trFcUqTH8

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6S0-o3uFI

[mania]

 
Stick & Stones? words?  Reminds me of the severely flawed comparison you made with North Korea just yesterday.
 
These are not just empty words or idle threats. I am afraid the facts disagree with you:

Reminds me of that comprehension problem I mentioned just yesterday .....

You always take a reply & twist it into another soapbox.
I replied to the usual annialate all jews push israel into the sea yada yada yada.

Now you come back with this?

Also I dont suppose you can reply with your own opinion to the actual statement without all the usual JDL rehtoric...youtubes etc etc etc?
Heard it all before and some of us are on tablets/phones.
Just chopping your repetitive quotes to a managable size is just not worth it...

So please accept my promise....I know where your coming from & please excuse me if I do not respond to your repetitive posts any further.
I think you also know where I stand in this mess.

We do not agree & that is fine.
thanks Edited August 11, 2014 by mania

[Morch]

 

That is very different from planning utter GENOCIDE and advertising it. 

 

So answer me this; what is Israel's ultimate goal in bombing and killing and maiming thousand's of innocent Palestinians?

 

All their current tactics are doing is strengthening world opinion against them, and more importantly strengthening Palestinian support for Hamas and their aims.

 

That can't be their aim, so what is?

 

As has been said, Israel refraining from it's massive over retaliation and instead holding out the olive branch may work. They certainly have nothing to lose by trying as they can resume their destruction of Gaza anytime they wish.

 

 

This is something a lot of people (not just posters on TVF) simply do not get. Israeli governments and politicians do not usually think well ahead into the future. Long term planning, as far as it concerns to domestic and regional political developments and processes is almost non-existent. Think Thailand, not that far off.

 

Even when there are such plans, they are rarely followed up to the letter, and are often changed, many times according to shifting political fortunes.

 

In regards to the current fighting in the Gaza Strip - I do not believe that there are many novel ideas of how to deal with the situation or improve it. The main considerations are short term - containment, setting the Hamas back a bit, playing the media for whatever its worth, and using the situation to further positions in domestic politics.

 

Taking over the Gaza Strip again is not something much supported by Israelis, even if some politicians spew this. A lot of these sayings do not represent serious thought regarding long term effects and even short term consequence - but its one way to bate political opponents. Disarming Hamas is not going to happen. Removal of the blockade is also a big problem. Yada Yada Yada..... I will be surprised if this ends up with anything much different from the unofficial agreement reached last time, which almost assured another confrontation in the not so far future. Depressing.

 

There's a serious leadership crisis on both sides, with leaders unable to come up with new ideas, or not having the guts to fully address fallacies related to long held ideas and positions. Sometimes a leader needs to do what's best for the people, rather than what the people want. Not much of that for years now.

[Morch]

 

 

Yes, dr_lucas, that Khaled Mashal.

It is unfortunate that Israel's aggression, as mentioned in your quote, made him withdraw his previous agreement to co existence.

BTW, Ulysses G; will you treat dr_lucas' Wikipedia quote with the same contempt as you did mine; or will you accept it as it supports your viewpoint?

 

Even if that excuse was true (calling the Israeli reaction to Hamas terror - aggression), it is also odd that you quote something that is not relevant today as a counter argument to post by another member about something happening today.

 

 

That you cannot see the relevance through your prejudice is not really my problem; but:-

 

Israel say they wont enter into negotiations with Hamas because Hams calls for the obliteration of the state of Israel. 

 

Yet Hamas was willing to change that and accept the state of Israel and negotiate with Israel.

 

Israel would not accept that.

 

Israel's over reaction to an Hamas attack led to them retracting their previous statement.

 

As I have repeatedly said, I am not a supporter of any terrorist organisation; and that includes Hamas.

 

But I am a supporter of the right of the Palestinian people to have their stolen land returned to them and to live their lives in peace.

 

As I am a supporter of the right of the Israeli people to live their lives in peace.

 

If the Israeli government were to offer a cease fire, to state that they would not respond to any breaks of that ceasefire by Hamas and to agree to enter into negotiations without any preconditions then I believe there is a chance that the above may come to pass.

 

Unfortunately, it appears that the current Israeli government will only be satisfied when there are no more Palestinians left.

 

 

Hamas did not openly say it is willing to change and accept the state of Israel.

The link you provided was of Abbas saying that they said something to that effect, and if one reads all of the related

links, even that might have been an over-statement.

 

Hamas offered, indirectly, a few forms of truce (which, as it gets tiresome to point out, do not carry exactly the same

meaning, in this context). It never said anything about recognizing Israel, but rather of accepting a Palestinian state

within the 1967 borders. There is usually no reference as to recognizing and accepting what lies beyond these the

1967 borders and there are even statements that say liberating the rest of the Palestinian lands will be left for future

generations. That is not peace as most people understand it.

 

Hamas never changed their charter to incorporate any of these things. They did use a mellower version in their

elections manifest, a move which aimed at getting additional support at the Fatah's expense. It was never really

adopted as the Hamas permanent official stand.

 

Not clear if the assertion that "Israel's over reaction to an Hamas attack led to them retracting their previous statement."

is based on anything solid or amounts to a personal interpretation. If the former, do share, if the latter, then this again

is another example of arbitrary picking a starting point for events.

 

Hamas is not willing to hold unconditional negotiations nor does it always respect ceasefires, why is it that you

suppose the bumps in negotiations are coming solely from the Israeli side?

[Morch]

For all those that slavishly support Israel's actions in Gaza, the world is against you.

 

#GazaDayofRage: Tens of thousands take to streets worldwide in support of Palestinians rt.com People across the globe have gathered to support the plight of Gaza, with the most impressive turnout taking place in...

 

Interesting to note that "the world" does not  seem to include that many Arab countries.

Before the almost unavoidable conspiracy theory responses - maybe just stop and consider that these countries

have their own agenda and own sets of issues.
 

[Morch]

 

Johpa said: "As I keep saying, I find both sides are in the wrong and if you pick one side over the other then you are wrong too".

 

Both sides may be wrong - but there are also degrees of moral turpitude along the dimension of "wrongness". The side that has the greatest amount of military might also has the greatest amount of responsibility to avoid war, and in  the event of war, to avoid the deaths of innocent women and children. Israel is obviously doing a very poor job at both tasks. This is why so many people - myself included - may believe that both sides are "wrong" - but believe that Israel is the major transgressor of civilised behaviour, and is culpable for the deaths of hundreds of innocent women and children.

 

 

 

Seeing as this is hardly the first time this play was on - wouldn't Hamas actions amount to total uncaring recklessness?  A government (and Hamas is the government in the Gaza Strip) consciously and repeatedly taking actions which lead to civilians under its care being placed in mortal danger and hardship, while doing next to nothing in preparation for their defense is simply unfit to rule. Forget attacking Israeli civilians, the disregard continuously shown by Hamas for lives of Gazans is quite appalling. Doubt if everyone who voted them in signed up for any of it.

[dr_lucas]

 

 
Stick & Stones? words?  Reminds me of the severely flawed comparison you made with North Korea just yesterday.
 
These are not just empty words or idle threats. I am afraid the facts disagree with you:

Reminds me of that comprehension problem I mentioned just yesterday .....

You always take a reply & twist it into another soapbox.
I replied to the usual annialate all jews push israel into the sea yada yada yada.

Now you come back with this?

Also I dont suppose you can reply with your own opinion to the actual statement without all the usual JDL rehtoric...youtubes etc etc etc?
Heard it all before and some of us are on tablets/phones.
Just chopping your repetitive quotes to a managable size is just not worth it...

So please accept my promise....I know where your coming from & please excuse me if I do not respond to your repetitive posts any further.
I think you also know where I stand in this mess.

We do not agree & that is fine.
thanks

 

 

You replied trying to portray the terror victim to be the aggressor and the aggressor to be the victim and my reply addressed just that.

I don't suppose you can reply with your own opinion to the actual post without dodging the main counter arguments and questions asked.

Seems your phone/tablet works just fine reading, watching and writing Hamas terror organization' propaganda.

[Morch]

 

 

Au contraire. The side that started the violence in the first place, refused the UN deal for their own country, declared war on Israel, elected a terrorist group the represent them and have refused numerous peace deals over many decades are the "major transgressors", by far.
The Palestinians don't get extra points for making all the wrong choices and being obstinate about not learning form their mistakes. . 

Not really a peace speach...but I hope you just represent a minority in Israel.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

Thorgal, sadly, that is exactly the problem. Only a minority of Israelis desire a just peace. The majority of Israelis voted for such sociopaths as Netanyahu & Lieberman. The majority of Israelis support the current attack on Gaza. Sure, they are pretty well brain-washed after years of exposure to the bias of Israeli and US media, but the fact is, they really think it is ok to kill hundreds of children. And women. And then to blame the victims.

 

 

Proper right wing parties hold 43 sears out of 120 in the Israeli parliament. The making of the current coalition government  was quite tricky and it incorporates parties which would feel at home with a left wing led government as well.

 

The support rates for the IDF actions in the Gaza Strip was much higher than that (among the Jewish public) and included  voters of center and left wing parties as well. In the same way, IDF soldiers are not all right wing voters, you can be sure that many of those who fought and died were not great supporters of the current government or right wing ideals.

 

Contrary to the bile you post, the majority of Israelis definitely do not think it is ok to kill hundreds of children. I'm sure you can bring up a quote to the opposite effect and claim it represents the majority, but if to judge from the parliamentary you presented, majority might carry a different meaning than accepted.

[Morch]

 

 

 
. The overwhelming aggression displayed by Israel against Palestinian people is unacceptable, and it continues, unabated day after day. You tell us how 'small' and isolated Israel is and how it deserves the right to exist. Nobody on here disputes that, BUT it is the 5th most powerful military nation on earth - not bad for such a small place eh! The violence it is delivering upon women and children is 'sickening', and all normal human beings are sickened by it. If for example any other country in the world were delivering that violence on any other people who were unable to defend themselves then that nation would face the wrath of all other good human beings. It just so happens that it is Israel - yet again who is dishing out the  violence, so guess what - hatred for Israel is growing on a daily basis around the world. Does that really surprise you? i do not understand how you cannot see that the growing dislike for all things Israeli will be the result. And lets get one thing straight, stop playing the 'Jew' card! I have many good Jewish friends living in the UK, USA and Canada who deplore these actions by Israel, they are great and good people. The dislike here is for Israel and its current war mongering regime, NOT as you keep saying Jews.
 
For all the propaganda and self justification that you and a few million others have swallowed up and convinced yourself of there are BILLIONS of people that believe you are wrong. If we had a GLOBAL referendum tomorrow then Israel would be flushed down the toilet in a heartbeat- as would any other nation guilty of the war crimes that Israel is guilty of. If you cannot work out why then that is your problem. You are making Israel the victim again, it is NOT. Israel is in a very privileged position and it's abuse of that position is plain for all normal folk to see. The fact that some people even justify it because a man who nobody actually knows who he really was and who cannot be identified said it was 'the promised land' 3000 years ago is beyond absurd. The man who went up a mountain on his own, disappeared came back a while later and said, you'll never believe this but I have been talking to God who made me write this on these stone tablets and he said he will only talk to me and has put me in charge of you all! "oh ok then" says everybody - guess you are in charge then! If anybody did that today they would be sectioned under the mental health act, he does it 3000 years ago and he is a bloody prophet!
 
Israel has no desire to be part of the international community, it flouts and ignores UN resolutions like it is a national sport, and you expect the rest of the world to have sympathy. If tomorrow we got rid of ISIS, Al Q, the Taliban, the CIA and the current regime in Israel (will you mis translate that now and say i am calling for the total wiping from the map of Israel?) the world would actually wake up a much much safer and happier place, then we could deal with the rest of the thugs and religious extremists (of all flavours)that take advantage of the chaos in the world today.
 
The world-wide protests being carried out should tell you that something is wrong with your current mind-set. A re-think might be in order. Good people do not go to the trouble of getting off their ass, taking a day off work, traveling a hundred miles to London and walking for 5 miles on a hot day just to have a 'undeserved' go at Israel. They BELIEVE their protest is just and valid. Protests will always attract idiots and people with extreme views and that is who the camera men are looking for, they dont look for the other 10 000 normal, good people who are saying enough is enough, that wouldn't make them any money, they just seek out the idiots. You then read their reports and claim that idiotic behaviour is representative of the other 10-20-30 thousand people taking part in the protest.
 
Until Israel acts with the responsibility that it should as one of the worlds top 5 military powers then do not expect an ounce of respect or sympathy from everyone else. You reap what you sow.
 

Again, people who already hate Jews (deleted) are using the conflict between Israel and Hamas/Gaza to rationalize antisemitism (against Jews) and make it acceptable in "polite" society. You don't get to order others to not talk about this because it shows that the anti-Israeli agenda is indeed muddied with antisemitism (against Jews), (remember Hamas ideology is openly genocidal), no matter how many claimed "Jewish friends" you might have or not have (irrelevant and a silly weak defensive cliche). Your claim that these antisemitic (against Jews) incidents are remote and fringe, both in the protests (and online) are clearly false as any objective person can see for themselves. Again, of course you have a right to post as you like, but you don't have the right to ORDER others to bring up aspects of this issue that don't support your political agenda. 
 

 
You seem to be really confusing yourself here. I have not sen ONE person on here who is in support of Hamas. NOT ONE! The plain fact is that for the damage they are causing to Israel the slaughter of a 1000+ innocent women and children is NOT justifiable. There are other ways.
 
Israel has already put troops on the ground. If they know where the rocket launchers are, then send in the troops and tanks and take them away. the rocket launchers cannot be used at close range, so just go and confiscate them. BUT they are not doing that, they are firing indiscriminately at targets where they believe there are rocket launchers and when the inevitable happens and many civilians are killed they say "oh sorry, Human shields". They have levelled most of Gaza. By the photo evidence of the destruction, Hamas must have been hiding a million rocket launchers!
 
Please point out on this forum who 'hates Jews"! That is a serious accusation so either put up or shut up. I have not seen one person in support of Hamas, and not seen one person who 'hates Jews', I have seen many people that hate the current Israeli regime. Are you able to differentiate between those groups?

 

 

There were many posters justifying Hamas actions and tactics, not all of them on the current topic.  There were many posters laying all or almost all of the responsibility for the situation on Israel, with little or nil  reference to Hamas actions. Might not be quite the same thing, but not that different either, really. I should think most of the hard core Jew hate messages were promptly deleted by mods, but can attest there were indeed some of these (again, not necessarily limited to this topic, a few running parallel).

 

Just go and confiscate them. You make it sound so easy. Not as if Hamas wasn't fighting IDF ground troops in Gaza, and not as if they were readily open to the concept of handing their launchers over once spotted. It's a war zone, not a police actions in a mildly bad neighborhood. The fire by IDF was not directed solely at rocket launchers, but also at buildings and locations used by Hamas to fire on IDF ground troops.

 

In case you missed it, a bit into the ground operations, and following a Hamas incursion into Israeli territory via tunnel, the operation's goals were changed and troops focused on locating and destroying tunnels leading into Israel. This led to different patterns of operations being carried out and accounts for a lot of the destruction evident in the Gaza Strip. The rocket launchers became a close secondary goal at this stage.

[CBR250]

 

You know, Palestine has a right to exist too. Gazan citizens have a right to live free from fear of rockets too. As Palestine does not have the power to enforce its own rights, it must rely on others to do so on its behalf. The obvious entity is the occupying power - Israel. Does Israel ensure security for Palestinians and Gazans? Well, no. Does the USA? Does the EU? Does the UN? No, no, no.

When no one else will look after them, Gazans must turn to Hamas. This was how Hamas came to power in the first place - providing health and education services, welfare and food to those effected by Israel's earlier blockades of Gaza. The Gazans  have no other options - the strong countries of the west have failed them. The Arab countries are useless, as they don't want to get nuked by Israel. So Israel now reaps what they sowed with their blockades and killings in Gaza in earlier times. In 2020, will Israel be harvesting the hate and desire for revenge they have engendered by their callous disregard for life and property today? Probably. Will they care? No. A few dead IDF and thousands of dead Palestinians don't matter - just as long as they can keep stealing land.

 

Hamas political assent was more to do with the PA (under Fatah leadership) being perceived as both massively corrupt and

as useless in dealing with/opposing Israel. So not hardly just about seeking protection.

 

The blockade on the Gaza Strip effectively became a reality after Hamas took control and not before ("earlier blockades").

With Gazan's options rather limited after Hamas took control and wiping the opposition, saying that civilians had not choice

is asinine. More like, there was no going back.

 

There are many reasons why Arab countries support for the Palestinians (and as a separate issue, for Hamas) was not

very effective or enthusiastic - summing it up to not wanting to "get nuked by Israel" is quite a novelty and a new low in

the level of informed discussion.

You are partly right about Hamas ascent depending on Fatah's failures - but there was a lot more than that to explain their sudden popularity. Hamas gained substantial support as a result of its welfare programs in Gaza. These were needed as a result of Israeli blockades (more on this in a moment). The presence of soup kitchens, funding for orphanages, healthcare clinics etc etc was, according not only to me, but to the right wing Jewish Policy Centre, instrumental in Hamas' rise to power. (http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/gaza-watch/hamas/)

 

Sorry, but the "blockade" on the Gaza strip was in place long before the elections that brought Hamas to power in 2006. In September 2000 Israel put trade restrictions on Gaza and closed the Gaza International Airport. Then in September 2001, Israel sealed all entry and exit points in the Palestinian Territories and a complete internal closure was effected on 14 November 2001. Gaza, already economically struggling to survive, became a basket case as a result of this blockade.  As I noted - also the Jewish Policy Centre - this blockade pushed the suffering people of Gaza into the arms of Hamas.  A bit more of the laws of karma at work. (Main source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#2005_Agreement_on_Movement_and_Access)

 

And, I think in a first for this thread, I will accede to your criticism of my vast over-simplification of the reticence of other Arab countries to become involved in Gaza. While I believe that they indeed have a fear of Israel's nuclear capability, their reasons for not becoming too involved in Gaza and Palestine are far more complex than I could ever hope to try and explain - or without going seriously off topic. Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Saudi, Qatar etc -  all have their own complex international and domestic considerations impacting on their lack of substantial involvement in the conflict. HOWEVER, I do still believe that fear of Israel is a factor, so maybe not quite the new "low" you are attributing to me.

 

PS I usually enjoy reading your posts. Perhaps you are tired, but the little jibes ("asinine" and "a new low in
the level of informed discussion") are unwarranted, and more to be expected from the serial pests on this thread. Please notice that when I provide information that contradicts you, I don't then use that as an opportunity to throw in a few demeaning comments. If I have done so anywhere, I sincerely apologise - I would only have done so in the emotional maelstrom after a new piece of horror had come to light and I had written without reflection.

I rely on you to help maintain some standards here - please don't let me down!

 

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

Perhaps.
Nobody knows.
But laying down their arms in the face of a radical Islamic Jihadist death cult that has openly stated their genocidal intentions against Jews to the one Jewish state would mean a much QUICKER death. 
Let the global protesters intentionally or unintentionally cheerlead for the Hamas dream of the end of Israel by chanting their "River to the Sea"  rap rhyme to express "anti-Zionism" ...  a "PR war" is not the top priority of Israel right now. A REAL WAR is.

 

 
Well I'm certainly not in that camp - my greatest concern for Israel is that I see and hear a tidal wave of anti-semitism growing.

 

It was always there. That is why Israel has been treated so unfairly. However, the mainstream media are finally admitting it, which is progress.

 

I would draw a sharp distinction between the European sympathizers and demonstrators from the American ones. When it comes to Europe, I think the overwhelming factor is raw, native, deep-seated anti-Semitism. This is 2,000-year-old anti-Semitism. Now for awhile they discovered that if you put the veneer of anti-Zionism -- the cover of anti-Zionism -- you can get away with it in respectable society. The veneer and cover are gone. You've got placards being carried in Germany of all places, 'Hitler was right.' Chants of Jews to the gas. This is raw anti-Semitism finding a semi-respectable outlet and you get the foreign ministers of France, Germany and Italy issuing a joint statement denouncing anti-Semitism in their country.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/08/05/krauthammer_on_anti-israel_protests_this_is_raw_anti-semitism_finding_a_semi-respectable_outlet.html

 

 

 

 

The second greatest anti-semitic act of the twentieth century was shipping all the Jews out of Europe and into Israel.  

 

All wise Jews know that. 

 

Disgusting - 

 

 

The British did not allow mass immigration, not even after WW2 ended. Legal immigrants were allowed according to

a limited quota, illegal immigrants were often captured and sent to prison camps (in Cyprus and Uganda, to name a

couple). Congratulations on being appointed spokesman for All Wise Jews.
 

[Morch]

 

I guess by asking uncomfortable questions, I will get called many names. But by not responding to a simple question, I am requested to troll through a myriad of pages, I have heard of trying to defend the indefensible, but that is just plain ridiculous.

 

What do you expect from arm-chair warriors with zero skin in the game...

 

 

Whereas you....?
 

[GentlemanJim]

 

 

I guess by asking uncomfortable questions, I will get called many names. But by not responding to a simple question, I am requested to troll through a myriad of pages, I have heard of trying to defend the indefensible, but that is just plain ridiculous.

 

What do you expect from arm-chair warriors with zero skin in the game...

 

 

Whereas you....?
 

 

Juvenile tit for tat does you no favours and just reduces the credibility of your other posts. Loptr has not been employing the tactics of some of the pro Israeli serial posters and I feel is entirely justified in his statement. IMHO.

[Morch]

So the protests have finally helped lead to a new cease fire in Gaza. Let us hope the slaughter has finished. Gaza has lost nearly two thousand people, including over 400 children. The scene Brian Eno wrote of - a young Palestinian father weeping, holding a plastic carrier bag full of meat - which was his 4 year old son who had been torn to shreds by an Israeli "fletchette" bomb - stays with me. As does the picture of the destruction of thousands of homes, roads, dozens of schools, hospitals, health centres. All of the essential infrastructure for a normal life. The rest of the world will pick up the tab for Israel's wanton destruction of Gaza. And they won't be happy about it.

 

Israel has won the battle, but lost the war - it has been a total PR disaster. The images of disproportionate destruction have circulated the world. The inhumanity and war crimes of the IDF have been exposed in a previously sympathetic international press. The young Gazans who have witnessed the killing and destruction will be radicalised for life, and they will pass on the grief and anger to their children. Hamas will be able to find many new members. The more calming voice of Fatah has been silenced. Well done, Netanyahu. You have sold out the peace of your people for generations to come for the opportunity to keep stealing land - the number one priority of Israel's internal politics.

 

The ceasefire is a result of the protests?

 

The number one priority in Israeli domestic politics is to get re-elected and stick the boot to politicians from your own party which endanger your position. Support for the illegal settlements effort is not something all Israeli parties and politicians go for - but indeed, this doesn't sound as definitive and simple as the last line of your post.
 

[Morch]

More proof that Israel is the one that uses civilians as shields

 

http://www.euromid.org/en/article/597

 

How is that proof? You have a guy on a clip saying it happened.

For a post fire fight scene the house looks rather ok...
 

[CBR250]

 

So the protests have finally helped lead to a new cease fire in Gaza. Let us hope the slaughter has finished. Gaza has lost nearly two thousand people, including over 400 children. The scene Brian Eno wrote of - a young Palestinian father weeping, holding a plastic carrier bag full of meat - which was his 4 year old son who had been torn to shreds by an Israeli "fletchette" bomb - stays with me. As does the picture of the destruction of thousands of homes, roads, dozens of schools, hospitals, health centres. All of the essential infrastructure for a normal life. The rest of the world will pick up the tab for Israel's wanton destruction of Gaza. And they won't be happy about it.

 

Israel has won the battle, but lost the war - it has been a total PR disaster. The images of disproportionate destruction have circulated the world. The inhumanity and war crimes of the IDF have been exposed in a previously sympathetic international press. The young Gazans who have witnessed the killing and destruction will be radicalised for life, and they will pass on the grief and anger to their children. Hamas will be able to find many new members. The more calming voice of Fatah has been silenced. Well done, Netanyahu. You have sold out the peace of your people for generations to come for the opportunity to keep stealing land - the number one priority of Israel's internal politics.

 

The ceasefire is a result of the protests?

 

The number one priority in Israeli domestic politics is to get re-elected and stick the boot to politicians from your own party

which endanger your position. Support for the illegal settlements effort is not something all Israeli parties and politicians go

for - but indeed, this doesn't sound as definitive and simple as the last line of your post.
 

 

 

Please note I said "helped" to lead to a new ceasefire, not "caused". Not "resulted in". Not "was the inevitable outcome of". Just - "helped".

And it was not just protest on the streets that helped, but in the corridors of many governments, in mass media, in every forum imaginable. MPs who couldn't care less about Israel 2 months ago were running around pulling serious faces as journos questioned their stance on Gaza. Previously sympathetic nations were demanding responses about Gaza from Israeli Ambassadors. So, I will reiterate. Protests. Helped.

Or do you think that Bibi and his entourage stopped simply because he was feeling magnanimous????

 

Yes, I agree with your cynical evaluation of Israeli politics. It is probably a bit worse than many other countries because the peculiar environment gives greater opportunities for the seriously deranged to rise to power. As we have seen.

 

And of course the land theft is central to the issues in Palestine and Gaza. Maybe in the internal head-kicking of Israeli politics it gets put aside occasionally. But never forgotten. Eretz Israel - the ownership of Palestine, Gaza and the Golan Heights - drives every party in some way. What political party currently has a platform for returning the stolen land on the West Bank and in East Jerusalem to Palestine? What political party promises to not allow any more "encroachments" by Zionist supremacists? What political party wants to move the Apartheid Wall back onto neutral boundaries? Israel's reluctance to engage in a meaningful peace process - I should say its contempt for the peace process - since the year 2000 is best explained by its intent to take more and more land. 

 

[Morch]

 

 

 

UG just incase you missed it Palestine was recorded as early as the 5th century BC
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

The region. There was a Jewish state called Palestine back in the olden days, but never an Arab one.

 

 
A Jewish state? Called Palestine? Maybe more a province under control of a foreign empire?
And perhaps it included not only Jews?

 

It was Israel. It eventually became first a client kingdom and then a province of the Roman Empire. The Romans changed the name to Palestine.

 

 

Judea, I believe, not Israel.

Included a few other ethnic and religious groups.

Don't recall it being called Palestine by the Hasmoneans, but we digress.
 

[Morch]

 

 

 

64 soldiers were killed by Hamas terrorists ad thousands of rockets shot at Israeli homes. It is not exactly surprising the IDF has no love for their enemy.  

 

Israel was formed by Israeli terrorists by driving out British Troops from Palestine.

 

How can you call people that have had their land stolen from them terrorists? I thought the word was freedom fighters.

 

The only reason Israel exists is because it provides a foothold for the US in the Middle East.
 

 

 

Israel was formed by a UN resolution.

The Brits were moved to depart by both Arabs and Jews resistance and the realization that the cost of holding on was

getting too high. The Arabs rejected the UN resolution calling for the creation of Palestine, mounted a war and lost -

the land was not stolen.

How is Israel functioning as a foothold for the US in the Middle East and what does it make Qatar, then?
 

 

 

You know - it's this level of self-delusion that underpins the whole debacle.  The UN was a fledgling puppet - a combination of guilty white men and minor Americas nations foisted the Israel solution onto the middle east - against the wishes of every nation in the area that was at that point a UN member. 

 

It was a calamity from the beginning - and anyone putting store behind the UN of that day is in denial of the reality.  

 

 

So when Israel does not comply with a UN resolution and such, is that ok too? Or is the present day UN an enlightened organization living up to its ideals? And then, how does one treat the part of the resolution dealing with the creation of the Palestinian state?

[Morch]

 

 

 

If you knew my posting history, you would know I have also been critical of Israeli policies ... particularly how strong the right wing is there and the west bank settlements. But that is one thing. Standing up for Hamas in a cheerleading kind of way is something entirely different. I also understand some Jews are anti-Zionist, wish Israel never existed and hope it stops existing, but I think you will find surveys of global Jews still show massive support for the existence of Israel, which of course implies the need to defend itself if it is to continue to exist. Hamas does not want it to exist. Opposing Israeli policies not the same thing as wishing the end of Israel. 

 

 

I have a better idea. Open arms and live alongside their fellow man. Stop stealing their land, stop imprisoning their children. Tear down the barbed wire and the walls. Go back to the 67 borders and live together. Allow Palestine to build and prosper. Palestinian people would stop Hamas and anyone else who threatened their freedom. The UN could go in for the next 10 years to observe Palestinian behaviour. If they fail, then put the barbed wire back up. But they would not fail.  An integrated Israeli /Palestinian land would prosper and could be a jewel of the mediterranean. The people are treading in the land most holiest to 3 billion people and they have well and truly turned the promised land in to hell on Earth. War begets war.Peace might just work, so is therefore worth the risk, especially when you hold the biggest gun.

 

 

This is certainly something to wish for. Does raise the question of how familiar you are with the level of hate existing

on both sides, though, as well as with the mentality exhibited by wide tracts of the population.

 

Religious fanaticism does not share the same logic as more reasonable systems of thought do.

 

How would Palestinian stop Hamas? And who would these Palestinians be, considering the wide support Hamas

gets both in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?

 

The UN troops mandate and capabilities limit their usefulness. Last time there were UN officials in a monitoring role on

the Gaza Strip they had to evacuate due to Hamas actions. Going back to the current situation after 10 years? Pretty

sure that would go smooth with the Palestinians and the international community. Not.

 

It is not that what you describe cannot become a reality. It is just that reality makes it highly unlikely that such a course

of action will result in anything resembling your vision.
 

 

 

"This is certainly something to wish for. Does raise the question of how familiar you are with the level of hate existing

on both sides, though, as well as with the mentality exhibited by wide tracts of the population."

 

Well if it is even a half of what is being exhibited on TV then their is little hope. (But yes, I know and have worked throughout the ME and Israel, I am very familiar thank you.)

 

 

Most of what's written here is pretty mild compared to other open forums, and certainly does not come close to the actual emotions displayed in the region.

 

In light of your experience, would you honestly say that the vision of peace described is indeed attainable by just making a few bold moves? I recall that even reaching a standoffish relationship between Israel and Egypt took a whole lot more bickering, bargaining, and tit for tatting until it was achieved. With the animosity between the Palestinians and Israel on a whole different level, it would seem rather unrealistic to assume it would be solved in a different manner.

[Johpa]

 

Johpa said: "As I keep saying, I find both sides are in the wrong and if you pick one side over the other then you are wrong too".

 

Both sides may be wrong - but there are also degrees of moral turpitude along the dimension of "wrongness". The side that has the greatest amount of military might also has the greatest amount of responsibility to avoid war, and in  the event of war, to avoid the deaths of innocent women and children. Israel is obviously doing a very poor job at both tasks. This is why so many people - myself included - may believe that both sides are "wrong" - but believe that Israel is the major transgressor of civilised behaviour, and is culpable for the deaths of hundreds of innocent women and children.

 

 

On some points above I am in agreement with you. As the actor with the greatest power, it is indeed up to Israel to take the responsibility and risks to avoid war and engage towards peace.  And I have criticized Netanyahu repeatedly for his failing to appreciate that position and for his impetuous and thuggish response to the deaths of the three teens in Jerusalem.  But in Gaza I maintain that both sides are in the wrong, that Hamas is as in the wrong as is Israel and thus shares equal responsibility for the deaths of the civilians.  My personal views do not follow the narrative espoused by the Likud, I am not parroting what, and I had to Google this term, is being referred to as "hasbara".  But the degree to which power bestows responsibility has no direct bearing on what you refer to as the degree of moral turpitude.  In Gaza, both sides are in the wrong and Hamas breaking more than one ceasefire may even perhaps place them a little further towards the butt end of the turpitude continuum than even Netanyahu. Thousands may be marching in London and Paris, but they are mostly just young naive netizens whose understanding of the Middle East, and global politics for that matter, is as deep as a twitter tweet.  The Internet is the virus.

 

[DPIZZA]

 

 

I agree with you 100% that killing of women and children or any other civilians is shocking and should be avoided.

 

 

Also most of the people of Israel would agree with you ( ofcourse there are the extremists on both sides, but they are a minority).

 

BUT the problem is that you fail to understand WHY citizens are being killed, and from there HOW to make it stop!

 

Hamas doesnt have the sensitivity that you and the rest of the western world has for human lives. 

It uses death of civilians for its advantage in a sick propaganda.

For Hamas, the more civilian casualties, the more shocking the better. 

Unfortunately, Hamas and News agencies share an interest - the more shocking the better the story.

 

Hamas uses your sensitivity to their advantage. They actually were counting on it!

They know pretty well that they cant defeat Israel with their rockets, they want to defeat it on the world opinion stage.

Otherwise, how can you explain that they refused all long lasting cease fires, broke all "Humanitarian cease fires", and were the one to start this conflict!

 

They dont think like me and you. For the extremist Muslim, to die as a shahid (martyr in the name of Islam) is the best thing they can aspire to.

All life here on earth come to serve only one goal, the life in the afterlife, and there, it is only heaven or hell.

So according to that twisted logic, ofcourse you want a sure ticket for reaching heaven (being a Shahid).

 

Hamas caused the conflict. It doesnt want to stop it. It hides behinds civilians.

It attacks from civilian centers to reach a win win situation: or Israel will sustain from hitting the target, or more civilians will die.

The more civilian dies, the more people will join their rank, the more Israel looses its status.

 

I dont expect you to believe me, do research on your own, but you can start with these:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The usual, "blame the victim" nonsense, morphing into the "its their religion" irrelevance. Anything to divert from the core issue of the Zionist land theft

 

 

" Anything to divert from the core issue of the Zionist land theft "

 

 

 

Israel Creates ‘No Man’s Land’ in Gaza, Shrinking Strip by 40 Percent 

 

 

 

 

 

spare me of this hypocrite righteousness...

I think you have a problem in understanding cause and effect issues...

 

Israel had settlements inside Gaza strip called "Gush Katif". they included around 9,000 people and 21 settlements.  Israel EVACUATED them UNILATERALLY in 2005 !   Thats 9 years ago! You think Israel has nothing to do but invest millions of USD in settlements, then demolish them just to come back again?!?!

 

Israel had no intention to return to Gaza, but Hamas with its rockets barrage, and killing of Israeli citizens, forced it to return again, and again... If you think Israel is ready to let them build rocket factories, dig tunnels under the border, and continue to shoot into Israel, while improving their  weapons and tactics, you are dead wrong!

 

So the buffer zone, is not intended as a "land grab" for settlements as you define it. It is necessary for the security of Israeli forces at the moment in the field. BUT, if they continue to fire, and continue to refuse the cease fire, it is possible that Israel will have to reoccupy the Gaza strip, and demolish Hamas rule, get it?

[Morch]

 

 

You know, Palestine has a right to exist too. Gazan citizens have a right to live free from fear of rockets too. As Palestine does not have the power to enforce its own rights, it must rely on others to do so on its behalf. The obvious entity is the occupying power - Israel. Does Israel ensure security for Palestinians and Gazans? Well, no. Does the USA? Does the EU? Does the UN? No, no, no.

When no one else will look after them, Gazans must turn to Hamas. This was how Hamas came to power in the first place - providing health and education services, welfare and food to those effected by Israel's earlier blockades of Gaza. The Gazans  have no other options - the strong countries of the west have failed them. The Arab countries are useless, as they don't want to get nuked by Israel. So Israel now reaps what they sowed with their blockades and killings in Gaza in earlier times. In 2020, will Israel be harvesting the hate and desire for revenge they have engendered by their callous disregard for life and property today? Probably. Will they care? No. A few dead IDF and thousands of dead Palestinians don't matter - just as long as they can keep stealing land.

 

Hamas political assent was more to do with the PA (under Fatah leadership) being perceived as both massively corrupt and

as useless in dealing with/opposing Israel. So not hardly just about seeking protection.

 

The blockade on the Gaza Strip effectively became a reality after Hamas took control and not before ("earlier blockades").

With Gazan's options rather limited after Hamas took control and wiping the opposition, saying that civilians had not choice

is asinine. More like, there was no going back.

 

There are many reasons why Arab countries support for the Palestinians (and as a separate issue, for Hamas) was not

very effective or enthusiastic - summing it up to not wanting to "get nuked by Israel" is quite a novelty and a new low in

the level of informed discussion.

You are partly right about Hamas ascent depending on Fatah's failures - but there was a lot more than that to explain their sudden popularity. Hamas gained substantial support as a result of its welfare programs in Gaza. These were needed as a result of Israeli blockades (more on this in a moment). The presence of soup kitchens, funding for orphanages, healthcare clinics etc etc was, according not only to me, but to the right wing Jewish Policy Centre, instrumental in Hamas' rise to power. (http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/gaza-watch/hamas/)

 

Sorry, but the "blockade" on the Gaza strip was in place long before the elections that brought Hamas to power in 2006. In September 2000 Israel put trade restrictions on Gaza and closed the Gaza International Airport. Then in September 2001, Israel sealed all entry and exit points in the Palestinian Territories and a complete internal closure was effected on 14 November 2001. Gaza, already economically struggling to survive, became a basket case as a result of this blockade.  As I noted - also the Jewish Policy Centre - this blockade pushed the suffering people of Gaza into the arms of Hamas.  A bit more of the laws of karma at work. (Main source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#2005_Agreement_on_Movement_and_Access)

 

And, I think in a first for this thread, I will accede to your criticism of my vast over-simplification of the reticence of other Arab countries to become involved in Gaza. While I believe that they indeed have a fear of Israel's nuclear capability, their reasons for not becoming too involved in Gaza and Palestine are far more complex than I could ever hope to try and explain - or without going seriously off topic. Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Saudi, Qatar etc -  all have their own complex international and domestic considerations impacting on their lack of substantial involvement in the conflict. HOWEVER, I do still believe that fear of Israel is a factor, so maybe not quite the new "low" you are attributing to me.

 

PS I usually enjoy reading your posts. Perhaps you are tired, but the little jibes ("asinine" and "a new low in
the level of informed discussion") are unwarranted, and more to be expected from the serial pests on this thread. Please notice that when I provide information that contradicts you, I don't then use that as an opportunity to throw in a few demeaning comments. If I have done so anywhere, I sincerely apologise - I would only have done so in the emotional maelstrom after a new piece of horror had come to light and I had written without reflection.

I rely on you to help maintain some standards here - please don't let me down!

 

 

 

The social aspect of Hamas (or rather, the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood, to begin with) activity was exactly what made it seem an anti-thesis to the corrupt Fatah. One of the common complaints back then was that the PA (led by Fatah) gets huge aid budgets which fail to materialize as institutions benefiting the people. Hamas popularity was built against this backdrop. The righteous anti-material preachings helped as well. All seems a bit funny nowadays what with the lifestyle adopted by some of its leaders.

 

There were restrictions, sure, but they came about gradually, until they culminated at the blockade as it is today. The way I read your previous post it sounded as if it meant Israel placed the same level of blockade on and off for years. Obviously read that one wrong, my mistake. If memory serves, though, most restrictions were placed after notable terrorist attacks (suicide bombing, back then) with new tiers of limitations added each time - at least as far as people were concerned.

 

Comment about style accepted, usually try to avoid these things.

[fasteddie]

 

For all those that slavishly support Israel's actions in Gaza, the world is against you.

 

#GazaDayofRage: Tens of thousands take to streets worldwide in support of Palestinians rt.com People across the globe have gathered to support the plight of Gaza, with the most impressive turnout taking place in...

 

Interesting to note that "the world" does not  seem to include that many Arab countries.

Before the almost unavoidable conspiracy theory responses - maybe just stop and consider that these countries

have their own agenda and own sets of issues.
 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps I should have said "most of the world".

Edited August 11, 2014 by fasteddie

[Morch]

 

 

 

I guess by asking uncomfortable questions, I will get called many names. But by not responding to a simple question, I am requested to troll through a myriad of pages, I have heard of trying to defend the indefensible, but that is just plain ridiculous.

 

What do you expect from arm-chair warriors with zero skin in the game...

 

 

Whereas you....?
 

 

Juvenile tit for tat does you no favours and just reduces the credibility of your other posts. Loptr has not been employing the tactics of some of the pro Israeli serial posters and I feel is entirely justified in his statement. IMHO.

 

 

I actually think he did, even with this current post and certainly on other topics.

 

[DPIZZA]

 

 

 

Murder is not the right word.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 
So just to confirm:
 
"antisemitism" and "hate crime" are the rights words, but "murder" is not the right word. 

If the shoe fits.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

 

Indeed, and the 'murder shoe, fits many of the IDF's actions!

 

Unless you are one of the blinkered who believe that the IDF and Israeli government can do no wrong and so resort to the labels of anti Semitism and neo Nazism all criticism of Israel's tactics.

 

Criticizing Israel and the IDF is not antisemitism.

I will tell you what is antisemitism:

When you see all the Jews in the world as responsible to all that is done in Israel, that's antisemitism.

To say that there shouldnt be a country for the Jews, thats antisemitism.

To say that Israel need to be destroyed, and the Jews thrown to the sea, that is antisemitism.

To say that the holocaust never happened, thats antisemitism.

 

and my favorite, to say that Hitler was right, and later call the Israelis Nazis! thats even doesnt make sense...

 

All these things and much more were said by Hamas and people on your side of the argument, whether they are Muslims, extreme left, extreme right, it doesnt matter...

[Jingthing]

...
call the Israelis Nazis! thats even doesnt make sense...

...

 

That's been a favorite super popular one for years and the people using it love to deny that's antisemitic (against Jews). 

 

That was a good list ... but it kind of only scratches the surface.

 

The "anti-Zionist" "Free Gaza" protesters expanding their agenda into hamburgers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJBBdwapbog

Edited August 11, 2014 by Jingthing

[Morch]

 

 

For all those that slavishly support Israel's actions in Gaza, the world is against you.

 

#GazaDayofRage: Tens of thousands take to streets worldwide in support of Palestinians rt.com People across the globe have gathered to support the plight of Gaza, with the most impressive turnout taking place in...

 

Interesting to note that "the world" does not  seem to include that many Arab countries.

Before the almost unavoidable conspiracy theory responses - maybe just stop and consider that these countries

have their own agenda and own sets of issues.
 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps I should have said "most of the world".

 

 

Nice correction there, would have had the anti-islamophobics all over you for that little slip .

Comment still stands, however - the silence of most Arab countries is deafening.