Buddhism without superstition, does it exist in Thailand?

[nidieunimaitre]

Most Europeans in Europe hold buddhism in high esteem.

Every garden center or home decoration shop will sell buddha statues, symbols of peace. (and no crosses....!)

Most Europeans in Europe associate buddhism with peace, personal peace, balanced living, immaterial values.

Most European posters on TV grab every chance to attack and ridicule buddhism and everything it involves.

How to explain this difference?

Is this just another form of Thai bashing?

Is it because of the difference between perfect theory and imperfect practice? Partly sure, but thais applies to every conviction.

Is it because - as I think - buddhism in Thailand has been taken over by superstition - to the extend that it is hard to find any traces of buddhism in Thai buddhism?

[willyumiii]

Don't confuse Buddhism and animism!

They do coexist in Thailand.

Spirit houses, ghosts, and the like are beliefs of Animism.

I could explain it, but why don't you google it and see what wikipedia has to say?

One of the things that originally interested me in Buddhism is that it does accept other beliefs.

Being raises an Irish Catholic, I was always told that if I even considered going to a different Christian church, I'd burn in hell forever!

Years ago an old Monk asked me if I was a Buddhist.

I told him that I was raised a Catholic.

His reply " You can be Catholic and Buddhist. Catholics try to be good people too!"

I'm afraid the Pope would not agree with him.

I left the church and have tried to follow the teachings of the Buddha ever since that day.

[rockyysdt]

Don't confuse Buddhism and animism!

They do coexist in Thailand.

If you accept Re Birth Life to Life fueled by unspent Kharma & Realms of existence other than the Human realm, a well held belief by many which explains the cyclic existence of Samsara, then Animism (ghosts etc) must be accepted as a sub set of Buddhism.

In other words, if you accept the belief that you can be reborn in a number of hell and deva realms why can't there be all kinds of phenomena involving ghosts and other?

Naturally the remainder who believe in Re Birth moment to moment only and that it's all over once we die can take the alternate (your) view.

Edited July 26, 2014 by rockyysdt

[nidieunimaitre]

Christians originally took all the teachings literally..

The devils and angels were fysical beings, but later they became ghosts, and later again they became something like the principle of good and evil.

Same for Adam and Eve, Noah etc.

Has something similar happened in buddhism?

Are there buddhists who would f ex say that rebirth simply means becoming a better (or worse) person in the same lifetime?

Is it sure that buddha meant rebirth literally? After all, his teachings were only written down many years later.

[rockyysdt]

Christians originally took all the teachings literally..

The devils and angels were fysical beings, but later they became ghosts, and later again they became something like the principle of good and evil.

Same for Adam and Eve, Noah etc.

Has something similar happened in buddhism?

Are there buddhists who would f ex say that rebirth simply means becoming a better (or worse) person in the same lifetime?

Is it sure that buddha meant rebirth literally? After all, his teachings were only written down many years later.

This is the crossroad.

Was the Buddha speaking in metaphor or was he literal?

Those of the literal persuasion accept Re Birth to future lives, Deva & Demon realms of existence, continuance of some kind beyond the death of the body/mind.

Those who subscribe to metaphor confine Re Birth as a moment to moment incidence of consciousness and that realms are mind states, with things ending upon death of mind/body.

There is a mountain of scripture written over many centuries since the Buddhas death describing in detail that which enters religion (something beyond death).

There is some early material suggesting a more pedestrian but yet still profound teaching of the way things really are and how to overcome them.

Which is it?

Is taking either path an attachment and/or mistake?

Is attaching to either path ensuring confinement to Samsara.

Edited July 26, 2014 by rockyysdt

[nidieunimaitre]

Don't confuse Buddhism and animism!

They do coexist in Thailand.

Spirit houses, ghosts, and the like are beliefs of Animism.

I could explain it, but why don't you google it and see what wikipedia has to say?

One of the things that originally interested me in Buddhism is that it does accept other beliefs.

Being raises an Irish Catholic, I was always told that if I even considered going to a different Christian church, I'd burn in hell forever!

Years ago an old Monk asked me if I was a Buddhist.

I told him that I was raised a Catholic.

His reply " You can be Catholic and Buddhist. Catholics try to be good people too!"

I'm afraid the Pope would not agree with him.

I left the church and have tried to follow the teachings of the Buddha ever since that day.

I have 2 questions:

1/ you say that buddhism and animism coexist --- my impression is that there is very little buddhism, and that animism and plain superstition have taken over. What buddhism do you share with the Thais?

2/ it is often said that one can be a christian or even an atheist in combination with buddhism. Surely a christian or atheist can not believe in realms of spirits and ghosts? So could you describe the particular type of buddhism ("path") that can be combined with christian or atheist beliefs? It would be that particular type of buddhism that I am interested in.

[rockyysdt]

it is often said that one can be a christian or even an atheist in combination with buddhism.

Surely a christian or atheist can not believe in realms of spirits and ghosts?

So could you describe the particular type of buddhism ("path") that can be combined with christian or atheist beliefs? It would be that particular type of buddhism that I am interested in.

Sorry N.

You framed this question to willy.

Can I ask you to clarify your question?

Are you exploring the compatibility of life as a practicing Catholic with Buddhist practice?

Edited July 26, 2014 by rockyysdt

[nidieunimaitre]

it is often said that one can be a christian or even an atheist in combination with buddhism.

Surely a christian or atheist can not believe in realms of spirits and ghosts?

So could you describe the particular type of buddhism ("path") that can be combined with christian or atheist beliefs? It would be that particular type of buddhism that I am interested in.

Sorry N.

You framed this question to willy.

Can I ask you to clarify your question?

Are you exploring the compatibility of life as a practicing Catholic with Buddhist practice?

Thanks for taking interest.

Actually I am a 100% convinced atheist.

What attracts me to buddhism are the ideas of inner peace, non materialism, being part of a something higher.

What I reject in a certain buddhism is the belief in supernatural beings, and the superstitions that often are mixed in.

The animist rituals and beliefs that I witness deter me from putting more effort in my search for "true" buddhism. I would like to find more or less like minded people or writings. But I might be looking for something that is impossible, the combination of atheism, logical thinking, humanism and buddhism. And I don't want "new age" nonsense neither.

I am too old (and I have other interests too) to start reading randomly lots of writings that might or might not bring me any closer to an answer that I might not like... I am looking for directions in which to search.

I accept and respect other people's beliefs, as long as they are in accordance with their own stated principles, and they don't try to impose them.

I have always enjoyed reading your posts, though disasgreeing. Unfortunately, can't say the same of many other posters on this forum.

[rockyysdt]

Thanks for taking interest.

Actually I am a 100% convinced atheist.

What attracts me to buddhism are the ideas of inner peace, non materialism, being part of a something higher.

What I reject in a certain buddhism is the belief in supernatural beings, and the superstitions that often are mixed in.

The animist rituals and beliefs that I witness deter me from putting more effort in my search for "true" buddhism. I would like to find more or less like minded people or writings. But I might be looking for something that is impossible, the combination of atheism, logical thinking, humanism and buddhism. And I don't want "new age" nonsense neither.

I am too old (and I have other interests too) to start reading randomly lots of writings that might or might not bring me any closer to an answer that I might not like... I am looking for directions in which to search.

I accept and respect other people's beliefs, as long as they are in accordance with their own stated principles, and they don't try to impose them.

I have always enjoyed reading your posts, though disasgreeing. Unfortunately, can't say the same of many other posters on this forum.

Thanks N.

Don't hesitate to put forward any points of disagreement.

It can be a good way to either reaffirm a stance or have it unravel.

When one is 100% convinced, this can signify strong attachment.

I've often pondered the atheist stance and tend towards an open mind about this subject.

Neither believing nor disbelieving, but observing all possibilities without attachment.

Often, due to the way humans think and visualize, we associate the unknown with images.

A good example is to picture God as an old wise man with a fluffy white beard sitting on clouds.

Having visualized it, we then dwell on its absurdity, but perhaps this is due more to our image rather than what it might really be.

Could God be another word for infinity, or that which is permanent & unconditioned, if these things exists?

The danger of beginning with a belief/view and looking for things which support it, is that we can become attached to something which isn't.

I find that practice is more about seeing what is and over time shedding attachments.

I'm gravitating to a position where practice is paramount.

Much better to experience what is rather than exclude things which don't fit into my model/belief.

For me, being open to things doesn't mean belief in them.

What it means for me is that by letting go I feel lighter, more open, less encumbered, free to be and to experience.

In terms of Buddhism without superstition in Thailand, all human beings are influenced and conditioned at many levels.

Influences include:

• Parents.
• Carers.
• Religion.
• Local, regional, national, & racial culture.
• Socio/economic.
• Intelligence/IQ.
• Education.

All these will play their part.

Practice as the Buddha taught has the power to wash them away.

Edited July 27, 2014 by rockyysdt

[Northwindhermit]

If you haven't already read him, try Stephen Batchelor's books: "Buddhism without Beliefs" and

"Confession of a Buddhist Atheist." His spiritual journey is very interesting.

[nidieunimaitre]

If you haven't already read him, try Stephen Batchelor's books: "Buddhism without Beliefs" and

"Confession of a Buddhist Atheist." His spiritual journey is very interesting.

Thanks, I will try and find those books.

[flagator96]

If you haven't already read him, try Stephen Batchelor's books: "Buddhism without Beliefs" and

"Confession of a Buddhist Atheist." His spiritual journey is very interesting.

Thanks, I will try and find those books.

Dear Nideunimaitre,

I would highly recommend to google "access to insight" (one word).

Once on the website you may look at the Beginnings section and go from there.

The message of the Buddha appears to have been distorted through the millennia, as one would expect. A lot of superstitious beliefs, rites and rituals have been added. In my opinion the Pali Canon, seems to hold the most original and genuine teachings as they were most likely delivered by the master 2600 years ago. The ultimate proof however is putting the teachings to work on a trial basis and seeing if they work, That is what the Buddha recommended, instead of just having "blind faith". You just have to get to the right teachings first. It was a lot easier to do that in the past, and the genuine message gets more and more distorted until it disappears completely as the Buddha predicted at some point down the road.

I would also highly recommend to you to listen to Ajaan Thanissaro's teachings on line. You can google Dhammatalks, with his name and it should come right up. The evening talks are a wealth of wisdom from a genuine practioner with so much wisdom offered along with practical steps. He is an American born monk who ordained and spent decades in Thailand. He is now the abbot of a Thai monastery in the States. I find his teachings, succinct, and able to get right to the heart of the matter.

If you have any other questions or concerns please feel free to ask.

Best regards.

[lungmi]

flagator96- a good post. I continue concerning th Teaching of Adjahn Thanissaro.

Basic religion of mankind is animism/shamanism - worldwide.

There is the Authentical Buddhism and the Cultural (historic) Buddhism, because Buddhism has the power of integration/assimilation.

Superstition is part of the basic religion. In Thailand it's apparent. Something went wrong with this assimilation.

Farangs buying fake products in Thailand because they have a holy brandname (Rolex, the pimps clock) etc. are not far away.

Astrologues in Europe make a good business too.

Thing about.

lungmi

[rockyysdt]

Dear Nideunimaitre,

I would highly recommend to google "access to insight" (one word).

Once on the website you may look at the Beginnings section and go from there.

The message of the Buddha appears to have been distorted through the millennia, as one would expect. A lot of superstitious beliefs, rites and rituals have been added. In my opinion the Pali Canon, seems to hold the most original and genuine teachings as they were most likely delivered by the master 2600 years ago. The ultimate proof however is putting the teachings to work on a trial basis and seeing if they work, That is what the Buddha recommended, instead of just having "blind faith". You just have to get to the right teachings first. It was a lot easier to do that in the past, and the genuine message gets more and more distorted until it disappears completely as the Buddha predicted at some point down the road.

I would also highly recommend to you to listen to Ajaan Thanissaro's teachings on line. You can google Dhammatalks, with his name and it should come right up. The evening talks are a wealth of wisdom from a genuine practioner with so much wisdom offered along with practical steps. He is an American born monk who ordained and spent decades in Thailand. He is now the abbot of a Thai monastery in the States. I find his teachings, succinct, and able to get right to the heart of the matter.

If you have any other questions or concerns please feel free to ask.

Best regards.

Sadly, it's contended that even Theravada, as compiled by Buddhagosa, is also thought to be distorted or incorrectly interpreted.

The Pali Canon was committed to text approx 430 years after the death of Guatama Buddha.

Plenty of scope for misinterpretation.

More importantly, personal experience through regular daily practice, can be our way of finding out for ourselves.

Edited October 24, 2014 by rockyysdt

[IMA_FARANG]

Yes. but that is a long subject and not worth the time to discuss here.

Let's just say, there are Budhist forums, in and out of Thailand, that have debated that question for years now.

The debate still goes on.

I will simply say, Thai Buddhism is only one variation of Buddhism.

It is not the only interpretation.

Unlike some other "religions" there is no "doctrine" that must be folllowed by all "believers".

And, even though there would be Buddhists in Thailand who dislike the idea, there is no "central authority" who determines who can be a Buddhist, it up to him or her (notre the female part) if he or she calls himself or herself a Buddhist.

[EmptyHead]

The Ajahn Chah tradition is pretty free from superstition.

[AYJAYDEE]

it is often said that one can be a christian or even an atheist in combination with buddhism.

Surely a christian or atheist can not believe in realms of spirits and ghosts?

So could you describe the particular type of buddhism ("path") that can be combined with christian or atheist beliefs? It would be that particular type of buddhism that I am interested in.

Sorry N.

You framed this question to willy.

Can I ask you to clarify your question?

Are you exploring the compatibility of life as a practicing Catholic with Buddhist practice?

Thanks for taking interest.

Actually I am a 100% convinced atheist.

What attracts me to buddhism are the ideas of inner peace, non materialism, being part of a something higher.

What I reject in a certain buddhism is the belief in supernatural beings, and the superstitions that often are mixed in.

The animist rituals and beliefs that I witness deter me from putting more effort in my search for "true" buddhism. I would like to find more or less like minded people or writings. But I might be looking for something that is impossible, the combination of atheism, logical thinking, humanism and buddhism. And I don't want "new age" nonsense neither.

I am too old (and I have other interests too) to start reading randomly lots of writings that might or might not bring me any closer to an answer that I might not like... I am looking for directions in which to search.

I accept and respect other people's beliefs, as long as they are in accordance with their own stated principles, and they don't try to impose them.

I have always enjoyed reading your posts, though disasgreeing. Unfortunately, can't say the same of many other posters on this forum.

then I suggest you research the teachings of Buddhadassa Bikkhu

http://www.suanmokkh.org/wbmstr1.htm

Edited December 15, 2014 by AYJAYDEE

[Sheryl]

Of course it exists, as the resurgence of serious vipassana practice attests. But these are still a minority of people out of all the Thais who consider themselves to be Buddhist.

For that matter, in Christian countries, aren't there far,far more people observing rituals and spouting verbal claims to faith than there are actually living as Christ taught they should?

Any religion, any country, a majority of people who self-identify as religious opt for form over substance. It's easier than "walking the walk".

[VincentRJ]

Of course it exists, as the resurgence of serious vipassana practice attests. But these are still a minority of people out of all the Thais who consider themselves to be Buddhist.

For that matter, in Christian countries, aren't there far,far more people observing rituals and spouting verbal claims to faith than there are actually living as Christ taught they should?

Any religion, any country, a majority of people who self-identify as religious opt for form over substance. It's easier than "walking the walk".

I agree. But there is also the delusional aspect of religion. That is, people accepting something as historical fact which is in reality pure fiction created by later writers with other agendas in mind.

I've always been puzzled by the amount of sheer cruelty and violence in the history of Christianity, sanctioned by previous Popes. How does one reconcile this with the 'apparent' fundamental teaching of Jesus to love one's enemies and turn the other cheek?

Could it be that the character known as Jesus Christ never actually promoted such an idea, and that these concepts were a creation of the Gospel writers, and that smart Popes as well as corrupt Popes realised this?

When I first learned that the Gospels were written in Greek many years after Christ's death by people who never knew Christ, it seemed obvious that such Gospels would be rife with historical inaccuracies.

When I later learned that the first writings about Buddha were made around 400 years after his death, I thought 'Crikey!'. How reliable is the Pali Canon?

Nevertheless, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If people find that Buddhist practices, and meditation, help them, without doing harm to others, and hopefully doing good to others, then historical accuracy may not be relevant (unless one is a historian). And the same applies to Christianity.

The danger is when someone inflicts harm on others by accepting something as true, because it's stated in some religious scripture, when in fact it's a fiction.

[nidieunimaitre]

Sheryl, on 20 Dec 2014 - 23:32, said:

Of course it exists, as the resurgence of serious vipassana practice attests. But these are still a minority of people out of all the Thais who consider themselves to be Buddhist.

For that matter, in Christian countries, aren't there far,far more people observing rituals and spouting verbal claims to faith than there are actually living as Christ taught they should?

Any religion, any country, a majority of people who self-identify as religious opt for form over substance. It's easier than "walking the walk".

1/ In Christian countries there are less and less people observing rituals, and most rituals have more to do with eating, drinking and meeting friends then with religion.

2/ If you claim that budhists are spouting verbal claims just like Christians, then you agree with me that budhism is not different from christianism and other isms?

3/ I am not Christian, but I have to acknowledge that they invented free thinking - surely they regret that, but what is done is done.

4/ And another thing that I hate to admit about this century's christianity, is that it is "not in my face" all the time - but of course I am only talking about Western Europe, things might be different in the US.

[Maailmanmatti]

A meditation student of atheist background once challenged the teacher with "I don't believe in future or past lives". Teacher would reply:"Well, do you believe in this life? ".

One of the qualities of true Dharma - the real thing - is that it's "akaliko", of immediate effect. If the practice isn't helping you here and now, it's not the real thing. The immediate benefit is the direct proof of Dharma. Never mind speculation of past and future lives, heavens and hells. What you directly experience now is the truth for you. (Google for "iti pi so bhagava" to find the traditional list of all the qualities of the real thing)

If someone through revelation, meditation etc directly experiences these past and future lives, heavens and hells, it'll be the truth for that person, not for you. The truth experienced by Jesus or Buddha is no truth for you, their liberation is no liberation for you, not before you experience for yourself.

The beauty of Buddha is that he left very good instructions on how to 'walk the walk'.

For the same reason - prime importance of direct experience - I'd say it's better to go for a meditation retreat for 10 days than spend the rest of your life reading books. Www.dhamma.org has contact details, course schedules and online application forms for free 10-day Vipassana meditation courses at locations all around the world, including half a dozen in Thailand.