Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[thedemon]

Unfortunately yes, maximum is 1 year.

 

Now that PR's can use the Autochannel system which doesn't appear to me to be linked to the holders re-entry permit it seems that this archaic system serves no other purpose than to allow Immigration to collect THB5700 per year.

[Arkady]

7 hours ago, regedit said:

Re the re-entry permit/endorsement, is the maximum duration 1 year ?

 

I now get a 2 year multi-entry on a NON-RE visa so assume that once I get the PR this NON-RE cannot be used anymore ?

 

It cannot be changed without amending the 1979 Immigration  Act which stipulates the 1-year re-entry permits.  It also says that 2-years is the longest period a temporary visa can be issued for.

[sas_cars]

 
It cannot be changed without amending the 1979 Immigration  Act which stipulates the 1-year re-entry permits.  It also says that 2-years is the longest period a temporary visa can be issued for.

How come the new smart visas can be issued for 4 years and don't even require work permit to do work. Compare this to PR holders who still need a work permit. Lol

[regedit]

19 hours ago, thedemon said:

Unfortunately yes, maximum is 1 year.

 

Now that PR's can use the Autochannel system which doesn't appear to me to be linked to the holders re-entry permit it seems that this archaic system serves no other purpose than to allow Immigration to collect THB5700 per year.

Yes, BOI confirmed today that once you get PR you forfeit the BOI visa privileges (including 4 year multi-entry for IHQ employees) and they can only assist with work permit. I suppose they don't need to 'attract' you anymore if you're a PR.

[Arkady]

11 hours ago, sas_cars said:

 

How come the new smart visas can be issued for 4 years and don't even require work permit to do work. Compare this to PR holders who still need a work permit. Lol

 

 

The 4 years must be a legal finagle, as in the case with 5-year Elite cardholder visas and the upcoming 10-year retirement visa.  They all have to report to Immigration at various points during the ostensible life of the visas, at which point the visas presumably get renewed in line with the Immigration Act, in order to cover Immigration officials. I think that in the case of the 4-year working visas they said the holders would have to report to Immigration once a year which would be the opportunity to do this.  At any rate, the holders of these visas must be pre-approved for the renewals, so they must be just like long-term visas with reporting requirements and should not be problematic.  I think the government would be very unlikely to renege on any of these undertakings, although they might change policy and not issue them in future. 

 

Re the waiver of work permits, I can't answer this definitively, since the government repealed the 2008 Working of Aliens Act and replaced it with a Royal Decree which I have yet to read in any detail.  The old law only permitted working without a WP for diplomats, staff at multilateral agencies and people coming to do emergency work at the behest of the government.  The new law presumably has some broader exemptions which enables the government to do this. 

 

I cannot for the life of me understand why PRs should be required to get WPs. Virtually every other country in the globe allows PR holders to work freely.  Exemption from WPs would not exempt them from the prohibition on reserved occupations, so that cannot be the reason.  Initially PR holders were given life-time WPs when they first came in in the 1970s, as long as they pursued the same profession.  Since then they have just been abandoned and forgotten about as far as WP regulations are concerned.  The only change made for them in recent years was negative in the form of the cancellation of the exemption from having to have 4 Thai employees, which was done by the Labour Ministry at the request of Immigration which resented the fact that PRs could bypass the 4 Thai employee rule imposed by them on non-PRs for NON-B renewals.

 

All this encourages PRs to see their status only as a waystage towards to citizenship.    

    

 

[Jujus]

On 8/24/2017 at 2:13 PM, regedit said:

Re the re-entry permit/endorsement, is the maximum duration 1 year ?

 

I now get a 2 year multi-entry on a NON-RE visa so assume that once I get the PR this NON-RE cannot be used anymore ?

Correct, it's a different re-entry permit once you get your PR. Actually, there are 2 parts: the Non-Quota Immigrant Visa (that goes in the passport) and the Endorsement of Re-Entry Permit (that goes in the Certificate of Residence). And yes, it is valid for one year maximum, unfortunately. But they can be renewed anytime, even months before they expire.

[Michael Hare]

8 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

The 4 years must be a legal finagle, as in the case with 5-year Elite cardholder visas and the upcoming 10-year retirement visa.  They all have to report to Immigration at various points during the ostensible life of the visas, at which point the visas presumably get renewed in line with the Immigration Act, in order to cover Immigration officials. I think that in the case of the 4-year working visas they said the holders would have to report to Immigration once a year which would be the opportunity to do this.  At any rate, the holders of these visas must be pre-approved for the renewals, so they must be just like long-term visas with reporting requirements and should not be problematic.  I think the government would be very unlikely to renege on any of these undertakings, although they might change policy and not issue them in future. 

 

Re the waiver of work permits, I can't answer this definitively, since the government repealed the 2008 Working of Aliens Act and replaced it with a Royal Decree which I have yet to read in any detail.  The old law only permitted working without a WP for diplomats, staff at multilateral agencies and people coming to do emergency work at the behest of the government.  The new law presumably has some broader exemptions which enables the government to do this. 

 

I cannot for the life of me understand why PRs should be required to get WPs. Virtually every other country in the globe allows PR holders to work freely.  Exemption from WPs would not exempt them from the prohibition on reserved occupations, so that cannot be the reason.  Initially PR holders were given life-time WPs when they first came in in the 1970s, as long as they pursued the same profession.  Since then they have just been abandoned and forgotten about as far as WP regulations are concerned.  The only change made for them in recent years was negative in the form of the cancellation of the exemption from having to have 4 Thai employees, which was done by the Labour Ministry at the request of Immigration which resented the fact that PRs could bypass the 4 Thai employee rule imposed by them on non-PRs for NON-B renewals.

 

All this encourages PRs to see their status only as a waystage towards to citizenship.    

    

 

Not sure that I understand this correctly Arkady. Are you saying that if one employs more than 4 Thai employees, then one no longer needs to get a Work Permit? With my company, we employ 9 permanent Thai employees. Am I exempt or not from getting a Work Permit?

[funandsuninbangkok]

10 hours ago, regedit said:

Yes, BOI confirmed today that once you get PR you forfeit the BOI visa privileges (including 4 year multi-entry for IHQ employees) and they can only assist with work permit. I suppose they don't need to 'attract' you anymore if you're a PR.

Holy smokes!

 

PR nullifies BOI privileges????

 

Sure?? 

 

Seems crazy!  Why would anyone get PR then?  BOI is currently handing out 15% tax rate for 15 years and four year work visas. Diplomatic line at immigration.  All that goes away???

 

shhheze. These guys are smokin something 

[ubonjoe]

10 hours ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

PR nullifies BOI privileges????

I think he mean certain extension and re-entry permit privileges and being able to use the one stop center. 

All the others would not be lost.

[Dogmatix]

It is pretty obvious that once you get PR, which is a lifetime visa, any type of privileges connected with the temporary visas you had before will no longer be applicable. The purpose of the one stop, for example, is to renew your visa and WP at the same time. They only do one thing which means they can process the queue quickly but you have to show up in person. When you have PR renewing your WP is a formality and you don't even have to show your face. Just send a messager. If your company is big enough and/or BOI promoted, get two year WPs which are not available from the one stop service.

 

I agree it is a bit annoying to have to go to CW once a year to  get a re-entry permit and it's a big expensive, considering what you have paid for PR. On the other hand, it is very quick and you can send a messenger to pick it up, once you have signed your name a few times and left your fingerprint smudge. Anyway you can just be biding your time till you get your citizenship which beats any type of BOI or Elite card privileges.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Dogmatix

[onthemoon]

My company is neither big nor BOI-promoted, and I got a two-year work permit the past two times. I believe that is because of my PR status.

[funandsuninbangkok]

BOI has begun 4 year visas and work permits. But PR has to do this every year?  Crazy. 

 

Also, what about tax benefits from BOI ? Gone?  Possible as Thai citizens are NOT eligible for tax relief. Maybe true for PR. Bummer. No thanks

 

also, what about young men with PR?  Military service like in Singapore?

Edited August 26, 2017 by funandsuninbangkok

[regedit]

13 hours ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

Holy smokes!

 

PR nullifies BOI privileges????

 

Sure?? 

 

Seems crazy!  Why would anyone get PR then?  BOI is currently handing out 15% tax rate for 15 years and four year work visas. Diplomatic line at immigration.  All that goes away???

 

shhheze. These guys are smokin something 

VISA privileges revoked, not tax incentives.

[funandsuninbangkok]

1 hour ago, regedit said:

VISA privileges revoked, not tax incentives.

Source?

 

military service for young men with PR?

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

military service for young men with PR?

No

They only draft Thai citizens.

[funandsuninbangkok]

20 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

No

They only draft Thai citizens.

Source?

[onthemoon]

15 minutes ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

Source?

Since your Google seems to be broken, I did it for you:

 

1.) You can believe Wikipedia: "The Military Service Act B.E. 2497 (1954) states that all male citizens of Thailand are obliged to serve in the military upon reaching 21 years of age. " (Enhancement by me; PR holders are not citizens.)

 

2.) Or you can read the Military Service Act by yourself at this link.

 

Hope this helps.

[funandsuninbangkok]

17 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

Since your Google seems to be broken, I did it for you:

 

1.) You can believe Wikipedia: "The Military Service Act B.E. 2497 (1954) states that all male citizens of Thailand are obliged to serve in the military upon reaching 21 years of age. " (Enhancement by me; PR holders are not citizens.)

 

2.) Or you can read the Military Service Act by yourself at this link.

 

Hope this helps.

Thank you

[Arkady]

On 8/25/2017 at 7:33 PM, Michael Hare said:

Not sure that I understand this correctly Arkady. Are you saying that if one employs more than 4 Thai employees, then one no longer needs to get a Work Permit? With my company, we employ 9 permanent Thai employees. Am I exempt or not from getting a Work Permit?

What I meant was that PRs used to get exemption from the requirement to have 4 Thai employees to get a WP.  This was because this requirement was imposed by Immigration as a condition for renewal of NON-B visas, not a Labour Ministry requirement.  But this was a loophole used by people who got WPs on 3 month NON-Bs issued by embassies abroad and I think by those working on marriage extensions. So Immigration leaned on the Labour Ministry to impose the same requirement which it without caring that it also applied to PRs.

 

I got a WP as a PR with nil Thai employees for a few years and then left to join a large Thai company.  When I was thinking about going back to the small company situation, I went to the Labour Ministry to ask about implementation of the new requirement.  An official came out of the back office and explained very politely that they were aware that PRs were affected by this but the reality was that PRs are not Thai and the preamble to the 2008 Working of Aliens Act, which he pointed out to me, specifically said that all efforts must be made in the  application of the law to prioritise employment opportunities for Thais. 

 

Other countries have similar provisions but apply them without distinction to citizens and permanent residents.

[Arkady]

On 8/26/2017 at 10:08 AM, onthemoon said:

My company is neither big nor BOI-promoted, and I got a two-year work permit the past two times. I believe that is because of my PR status.

 

I applied for one with a small company soon after the 2008 Working of Aliens Act, which allowed them for the first time, first came into force.  The person who took my application said she wasn't sure but thought I would probably get approved because of PR.  When I went to pick it up I found I had been rejected because I worked for a small company and having PR made no difference to the Poo Yai.  I was told I should work for a BOI promoted company, a company with paid-up capital of B3bn or more or earn a salary of B1m or more to qualify.   Later I got one with a large company without problem.  

I have heard that the Poo Yai got less sticky about issuing them to employees of small companies.  Perhaps that was just their initially cautious reaction to the new law.  I would like to think that having PR made a difference now and hopefully it does these days.  

 

Since the Working of Aliens Act has been replaced with a Royal Decree, everything may now be different.  I don't know what provisions the new law has for WPs over 12 months.

[mortenaa]

Hey guys!

 

Been living in BKK for several years. I got my PR this year.

 

It looks like I am moving to another province in September. Hua Hin in Prachuap province, to a house built on leased land. 

Anyone know the procedure to move to another province on PR? Will I have to get a new Alien book etc?

[Michael Hare]

2 hours ago, Arkady said:

What I meant was that PRs used to get exemption from the requirement to have 4 Thai employees to get a WP.  This was because this requirement was imposed by Immigration as a condition for renewal of NON-B visas, not a Labour Ministry requirement.  But this was a loophole used by people who got WPs on 3 month NON-Bs issued by embassies abroad and I think by those working on marriage extensions. So Immigration leaned on the Labour Ministry to impose the same requirement which it without caring that it also applied to PRs.

 

I got a WP as a PR with nil Thai employees for a few years and then left to join a large Thai company.  When I was thinking about going back to the small company situation, I went to the Labour Ministry to ask about implementation of the new requirement.  An official came out of the back office and explained very politely that they were aware that PRs were affected by this but the reality was that PRs are not Thai and the preamble to the 2008 Working of Aliens Act, which he pointed out to me, specifically said that all efforts must be made in the  application of the law to prioritise employment opportunities for Thais. 

 

Other countries have similar provisions but apply them without distinction to citizens and permanent residents.

Thank you for the explanation. I am not an employee of the company. The company belongs to myself and my wife. A registered Thai company. Always a big rush getting my work permit because of the yearly accounts and taxes . This is because my work permit expires on February 14 of each year. In order to renew the work permit, the Labour Dept requires all our company accounts for the year just finished (Jan-Dec) be completed and all our taxes (mine included) be paid. That means that our accountancy firm only have a 3-5 weeks in January-early February of each year to get all of these things done.  It was very simple in the past when I just an employee. 

 

In order to get over this rush, the accountancy firm have told by the Labour Dept to delay my work permit next year until June. As I will be 5 months over due, I will pay a 1000 baht fine, but from then on my work permit expiry date will be June. 

[onthemoon]

8 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

I applied for one with a small company soon after the 2008 Working of Aliens Act, which allowed them for the first time, first came into force.  The person who took my application said she wasn't sure but thought I would probably get approved because of PR.  When I went to pick it up I found I had been rejected because I worked for a small company and having PR made no difference to the Poo Yai.  I was told I should work for a BOI promoted company, a company with paid-up capital of B3bn or more or earn a salary of B1m or more to qualify.   Later I got one with a large company without problem.  

I have heard that the Poo Yai got less sticky about issuing them to employees of small companies.  Perhaps that was just their initially cautious reaction to the new law.  I would like to think that having PR made a difference now and hopefully it does these days.  

 

Since the Working of Aliens Act has been replaced with a Royal Decree, everything may now be different.  I don't know what provisions the new law has for WPs over 12 months.

 

Yes, my salary is over B1m. I didn't know that was relevant. Maybe the salary, and not the PR, was the reason for the 2-year WP. sorry for the confusion.

 

[onthemoon]

5 hours ago, mortenaa said:

Hey guys!

 

Been living in BKK for several years. I got my PR this year.

 

It looks like I am moving to another province in September. Hua Hin in Prachuap province, to a house built on leased land. 

Anyone know the procedure to move to another province on PR? Will I have to get a new Alien book etc?

Congratulations to your PR!

 

There are many PR holders in Hua Hin, so I suggest you go to the Amphur and ask them. They will know.

[onthemoon]

5 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

Thank you for the explanation. I am not an employee of the company. The company belongs to myself and my wife. A registered Thai company. Always a big rush getting my work permit because of the yearly accounts and taxes . This is because my work permit expires on February 14 of each year. In order to renew the work permit, the Labour Dept requires all our company accounts for the year just finished (Jan-Dec) be completed and all our taxes (mine included) be paid. That means that our accountancy firm only have a 3-5 weeks in January-early February of each year to get all of these things done.  It was very simple in the past when I just an employee. 

 

In order to get over this rush, the accountancy firm have told by the Labour Dept to delay my work permit next year until June. As I will be 5 months over due, I will pay a 1000 baht fine, but from then on my work permit expiry date will be June. 

I'm not entirely sure I would want to work 5 months with an expired work permit... If you are caught you can hardly say that the Labour Department told you to do that.

[Michael Hare]

It is no problem. We will have documentation from the Labour dept instructing us to do this. 

[Arkady]

20 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

Thank you for the explanation. I am not an employee of the company. The company belongs to myself and my wife. A registered Thai company. Always a big rush getting my work permit because of the yearly accounts and taxes . This is because my work permit expires on February 14 of each year. In order to renew the work permit, the Labour Dept requires all our company accounts for the year just finished (Jan-Dec) be completed and all our taxes (mine included) be paid. That means that our accountancy firm only have a 3-5 weeks in January-early February of each year to get all of these things done.  It was very simple in the past when I just an employee. 

 

In order to get over this rush, the accountancy firm have told by the Labour Dept to delay my work permit next year until June. As I will be 5 months over due, I will pay a 1000 baht fine, but from then on my work permit expiry date will be June. 

 

I am not sure where to start on this one.  Under the old Working of Aliens Act the penalty for working without a WP was not B1,000.  It was up to 5 years in prison and/or a fine of B2,000 to B100,000.  Under the new Royal Decree the penalties have been increased and a penalty of a fine up to B800,000 has been introduced for the employer as well.

 

You say you are not an employee of the company.  Then how can you get a WP with it?

 

You were given the advice to work illegally without a WP for several months by an accounting firm which claimed to have got it from the Labour Ministry but you have not contacted the Labour Ministry yourself to corroborate this.  It is rather important and the Labour Ministry is very approachable, particularly, if you go there in person and ask to speak to a supervisor to explain something a bit out of the ordinary.  I am willing to bet you will not get the same answer, if you talk to them direct.   I doubt very much that the accountants would be able to provide documentation from the ministry instructing you and the company to break the law, or that they could reference a section in the new Royal Decree which permits this.

 

I think there may be other more creative solutions to your problem, e.g. applying for a 6-month WP or two 3-month ones to get you into a more convenient renewal cycle.

 

You could wing it by pretending that you took a few months off but, in that case, you have to cancel your WP and apply for a new one when you go back to work.  If you don't, your company will be fined for not reporting the termination of a foreign employee and then you will have to start from scratch, applying for a new WP.  If you tell the truth that you continued working without a WP, they will be obliged to prosecute you according to the law. 

 

If you are trying to build up a track record to apply for PR or citizenship, having a gap in your WP record will mean you have to start from scratch again.  

[regedit]

I read that the blue book fills up quickly - could someone advise number of pages or approx number of exits/entries  the book will handle before a new one is needed. Thanks.

[Michael Hare]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

 

I am not sure where to start on this one.  Under the old Working of Aliens Act the penalty for working without a WP was not B1,000.  It was up to 5 years in prison and/or a fine of B2,000 to B100,000.  Under the new Royal Decree the penalties have been increased and a penalty of a fine up to B800,000 has been introduced for the employer as well.

 

You say you are not an employee of the company.  Then how can you get a WP with it?

 

You were given the advice to work illegally without a WP for several months by an accounting firm which claimed to have got it from the Labour Ministry but you have not contacted the Labour Ministry yourself to corroborate this.  It is rather important and the Labour Ministry is very approachable, particularly, if you go there in person and ask to speak to a supervisor to explain something a bit out of the ordinary.  I am willing to bet you will not get the same answer, if you talk to them direct.   I doubt very much that the accountants would be able to provide documentation from the ministry instructing you and the company to break the law, or that they could reference a section in the new Royal Decree which permits this.

 

I think there may be other more creative solutions to your problem, e.g. applying for a 6-month WP or two 3-month ones to get you into a more convenient renewal cycle.

 

You could wing it by pretending that you took a few months off but, in that case, you have to cancel your WP and apply for a new one when you go back to work.  If you don't, your company will be fined for not reporting the termination of a foreign employee and then you will have to start from scratch, applying for a new WP.  If you tell the truth that you continued working without a WP, they will be obliged to prosecute you according to the law. 

 

If you are trying to build up a track record to apply for PR or citizenship, having a gap in your WP record will mean you have to start from scratch again.  

I own the company. I employ the staff. Everyone works for me.  I have had PR for 15 years. We have discussed this with the Labour  Dept. There is no problem in moving my date of Work Permit renewal forward 5 months. Perhaps they will give me a six month permit to cover that period. I am in Ubon Ratchathani and the people in the Labour Dept have known me since 1994. They know where I live. They have been to my house. 

 

 

[Arkady]

8 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

I own the company. I employ the staff. Everyone works for me.  I have had PR for 15 years. We have discussed this with the Labour  Dept. There is no problem in moving my date of Work Permit renewal forward 5 months. Perhaps they will give me a six month permit to cover that period. I am in Ubon Ratchathani and the people in the Labour Dept have known me since 1994. They know where I live. They have been to my house. 

 

 

 

So you are both an employee and a shareholder.  You might be able to renew the WP for 12 months before it has expired, in the same way you can your re-entry permit.  You should be able to renew for 3 or 6 months because WPs for less than a year are quite normal and there are specific fees for those periods.  Since you have PR you could also resign and cancel your WP and "take a break" for a few months before applying for a new one, unless you absolutely need a WP in that time and don't intend to apply for citizenship soon.  Since the local labour office is friendly, perhaps they can renew your WP 5 months late, although this is not legal and the late renewal would also be a problem, if you were to apply for citizenship.  I think either the first or second options would be preferable, i.e. keep on working on a valid WP.

 

Your problem raises the question of how do other companies cope with this.  There must be many foreigners who start new jobs in the first quarter of the year.  I wonder if their accounts departments are always forced to finalise their accounts early.