Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[Wilston]

I hold PR since 2003. I have always lived in Chiang Mai and things have been pretty straight forward. A few years ago I moved to Mahasarakham province and I took my police book to the local Amphur police station. They had never seen this book before, but after some explanation and a phone call to Chiang Mai we got things organized.

Since then I got my re-entries at the immigration in Khon Kaen, very friendly staff and good service. Last year they advised me that immigration has opened a office in Mahasarakham so I decided to get my re-entry there this year. When there I was told that I was the 3rd PR in that province. Then I was told that I should have registered with them inmidiately after moving from Chiang Mai province to Mahasarakham province, things got a little unfriendly. I am confused, I have registered with my local Amphur police station on the day that I moved and I do not understand how the immigration office in Mahasarakham gets involved here. 

 

Any ideas?

[ubonjoe]

5 hours ago, Wilston said:

Then I was told that I should have registered with them inmidiately after moving from Chiang Mai province to Mahasarakham province, things got a little unfriendly.

I think they are the ones that are confused. There is no change of address reporting you have to do at immigration since you have PR. They  apparently are thinking of the reporting required for those on a temporary permit to stay.

You did what you are required to do when you reported to the police.

[Arkady]

Wilston, since you are only the third PR in Mahasarakham, you clearly have more knowledge and experience of PR procedures than the Immigration police in your province. Sadly it sounds like another case where ignorant government officials are too lazy to look in the rule book or lift the phone. It’s much easier and more fun to make up their own idiotic rules on the spot and give some innocent person stick for no reason. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Arkady

[Arkady]

BREAKING NEWS.  The announcement regarding the opening of PR applications was published in the Royal Gazette two days ago, on 6 December http://www.ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/DATA/PDF/2560/E/301/9.PDF. 

 

It normally takes a couple of weeks for Immigration to receive their official notification and to open things up but it could equally be imminent any day now.  Since it is going to be very close to the year end, it is possible that the deadline for 2017 applications will be extended to end January.  Those who are preparing to apply should keep their eyes peeled for an announcement from Immigration or call them.    

[ubonjoe]

12 minutes ago, Arkady said:

BREAKING NEWS.  The announcement regarding the opening of PR applications was published in the Royal Gazette two days ago, on 6 December http://www.ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/DATA/PDF/2560/E/301/9.PDF. 

Odd it was signed on November 7th but nothing in the gazette until the 6th.

Also no dates set in it.

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Odd it was signed on November 7th but nothing in the gazette until the 6th.

Also no dates set in it.

It's normal for routine announcements to take about a month to get published in the RG. No idea why but important announcement, such as those issued under Section 44, seem to get published right away. 

[SteveB2]

On 12/4/2017 at 2:32 PM, Jujus said:

I have been told so when I got mine... Whether it's an official points system or an undisclosed internal one like you suggest, that I do not know.

My own PR hatched around March/April this year.

 

After PR applications are accepted, all applicants are called back in batches for further assesment interviews. During one such interview for myself, (Thai language... continuous interrogation by different officers 0800-1300, no lunch break) one officer showed me sections from an internal CW rough bound A4 document containing several dozen pages labelled in Thai something line 'Guidance for assessing the suitability of Permanent Residence Applicants'  - on the pages showed to me that day was the scoring system for those applying for Thai wife - and how my application now scored acceptable this year since the combination  of my marriage to my Thai wife was over 10 years and my bumped up salary was now an acceptable passing score.

 

It's important for all PR applicants to realise, that PR application is different to all other VISA application processes - it's not a 'ticking the boxes' deal at all. The requirements on the PR application guidelines are very much the minimum needed to even chat with the CW PR team and have an application considered. The actual passing grade is very much higher. The CW PR team will make this very clear to you when you attempt to lodge your application with them. See my earlier posts in this forum topic for further info. 

 

My lawyers guidance on the assesment scoring system was that 'following recent reviews, the application  processes for PR and Citizenship was now very similar(The Thai Citizenship application had been made easier) - so much so, that PR applicants are often advised by the CW PR team to apply for Thai citizenship instead on an 'up to you' basis  - I too was advised to apply for citizenship - However, I smiled and said "I don't think I'm good enough yet" the IMMO smiled back...  

 

[Big Guns]

I got my citizenship in October it took 3 years. For someone who is married to a Thai national going for PR seems pointless unless you're from a country thst forbids dual nationality. Citizenship is cheaper & you dont have to be able to speak Thai.

[Arkady]

Having been through both processes, I got the distinct impression that Immigration is a lot more secretive and less applicant friendly re PR than Special Branch is re citizenship.  When I applied for PR in the late 90s I was introduced to a Pol Maj Gen at Immigration who showed me a file of applications that were to be rejected for working for companies with only the basic 2 mil capital required for WP, which in those days didn't even need to be paid up.  They were not told the real reason for their rejections and the model Maj Gen told me that some of them applied again on the same basis and were rejected again. 

 

So SteveB2's account of the internal system at Immigration for assessing points for PR which is not normally disclosed to applicants doesn't surprise me at all.  SB's points allocation system is openly disclosed on their website and you get the impression that the officers there really want you to pass.  At Immigration I had a very nasty interview in the days before panel interviews with a rather rude, young Pol Captain who insisted on keeping the idiotic soap opera blaring at full volume on the TV during the interview, so I could barely hear him.  When I asked him to repeat a question, he declared that I couldn't understand or speak Thai and scrolled back in his computer to show me he had deleted "Can speak Thai" and replaced it with "Cannot speak Thai", asking me to confirm my acceptance of this. The irony that someone who could not understand or speak Thai was able to read something written about him in Thai and that the interview continued in Thai without further problems seemed lost on him.  Fortunately my new Pol Maj Gen friend, who had played in a national sports team with the parents of one of my staff, was able to sort out his prickly subordinates downstairs and whisk me through the Immigration part of the process without asking for anything in return.       

 

What is missing though is information about people who are rejected.  We know about the expected minimum salary of 80k, even though it is not published anywhere, and presumably people making less don't apply or can expect to be rejected.  Similarly those married to Thais but not working and insisting (correctly) there is no rule against this get rejected for sure.  But there is little information in this thread about people making at least 80k with substantive Thai companies and apparently meeting all the WP and tax and other published requirements getting rejected.  Since males with Thai wives have been allowed to apply for citizenship directly, I guess that the proportion of PR applicants without Thai wives has increased significantly.  At any rate a large proportion of the Chinese and Indian applicants who dominant the numbers has always been people married to citizens of their own country.  So I would argue that being married to a Thai and having Thai children is not nearly as important as Immigration officials like to make out.  When I applied for PR I wasn't married at all and no one ever suggested that was any kind of a problem.   When I first enquired about citizenship at SB they told me that registering my marriage to my now Thai wife would just add complications, as they would have to scrutinise her and my marriage,  while doing nothing to improve my chances as I was fully qualified through over five years's PR.         

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, Big Guns said:

I got my citizenship in October it took 3 years. For someone who is married to a Thai national going for PR seems pointless unless you're from a country thst forbids dual nationality. Citizenship is cheaper & you dont have to be able to speak Thai.

 

Even though it is hard to imagine that the Interior Ministry is happy with this situation re Thai language (and I don't blame them), it is protected by law, since the Nationality Act, as amended in 2008, specifically exempts males with Thai wives from the need to have knowledge of the Thai language.   Of course, female applicants with Thai husbands have always been exempt from the language requirement, as well as many other requirements. 

 

Nevertheless, the documentary requirements for citizenship have been made progressively harder in the last few years, edging a little closer to the much more burdensome requirements for PR.  It is a fair guess that the Interior Ministry will keep on making citizenship harder, without changing the law, to close the gap further between PR and citizenship. So anyone interested in applying for citizenship and already qualified should not procrastinate any longer, particularly since the current government has now shortened the process to around 3 years from 5-11 years prior to the coup.  Things can't last.    

[jayboy]

31 minutes ago, Arkady said:

Having been through both processes, I got the distinct impression that Immigration is a lot more secretive and less applicant friendly re PR than Special Branch is re citizenship.  When I applied for PR in the late 90s I was introduced to a Pol Maj Gen at Immigration who showed me a file of applications that were to be rejected for working for companies with only the basic 2 mil capital required for WP, which in those days didn't even need to be paid up.  They were not told the real reason for their rejections and the model Maj Gen told me that some of them applied again on the same basis and were rejected again. 

 

So SteveB2's account of the internal system at Immigration for assessing points for PR which is not normally disclosed to applicants doesn't surprise me at all.  SB's points allocation system is openly disclosed on their website and you get the impression that the officers there really want you to pass.  At Immigration I had a very nasty interview in the days before panel interviews with a rather rude, young Pol Captain who insisted on keeping the idiotic soap opera blaring at full volume on the TV during the interview, so I could barely hear him.  When I asked him to repeat a question, he declared that I couldn't understand or speak Thai and scrolled back in his computer to show me he had deleted "Can speak Thai" and replaced it with "Cannot speak Thai", asking me to confirm my acceptance of this. The irony that someone who could not understand or speak Thai was able to read something written about him in Thai and that the interview continued in Thai without further problems seemed lost on him.  Fortunately my new Pol Maj Gen friend, who had played in a national sports team with the parents of one of my staff, was able to sort out his prickly subordinates downstairs and whisk me through the Immigration part of the process without asking for anything in return.       

 

What is missing though is information about people who are rejected.  We know about the expected minimum salary of 80k, even though it is not published anywhere, and presumably people making less don't apply or can expect to be rejected.  Similarly those married to Thais but not working and insisting (correctly) there is no rule against this get rejected for sure.  But there is little information in this thread about people making at least 80k with substantive Thai companies and apparently meeting all the WP and tax and other published requirements getting rejected.  Since males with Thai wives have been allowed to apply for citizenship directly, I guess that the proportion of PR applicants without Thai wives has increased significantly.  At any rate a large proportion of the Chinese and Indian applicants who dominant the numbers has always been people married to citizens of their own country.  So I would argue that being married to a Thai and having Thai children is not nearly as important as Immigration officials like to make out.  When I applied for PR I wasn't married at all and no one ever suggested that was any kind of a problem.   When I first enquired about citizenship at SB they told me that registering my marriage to my now Thai wife would just add complications, as they would have to scrutinise her and my marriage,  while doing nothing to improve my chances as I was fully qualified through over five years's PR.         

Very interesting.Though qualified for a long time I only got PR relatively recently and I must say there was little evidence of a particularly rigorous approach on the Thai language, basically a jokey session for about 45 minutes - nothing like the 5 hour marathon mentioned by SteveB2.My Thai is fluent enough but in no sense very accomplished.In terms of points system and criteria generally I suspect there is an X factor at play sometimes - your Police General contact perhaps? I know that in my dossier there was a very warm letter of support from a source that meant rejection was virtually impossible - though as my lawyer pointed out it was really a fool proof back stop since I met all criteria.

[Arkady]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Very interesting.Though qualified for a long time I only got PR relatively recently and I must say there was little evidence of a particularly rigorous approach on the Thai language, basically a jokey session for about 45 minutes - nothing like the 5 hour marathon mentioned by SteveB2.My Thai is fluent enough but in no sense very accomplished.In terms of points system and criteria generally I suspect there is an X factor at play sometimes - your Police General contact perhaps? I know that in my dossier there was a very warm letter of support from a source that meant rejection was virtually impossible - though as my lawyer pointed out it was really a fool proof back stop since I met all criteria.

My major general also explained to me who sits on the committee for PR, which is actually partly public knowledge, as the government agencies are specified in the Immigration Act.  But he explained that the top people in those agencies almost never attend in person but send a subordinate down to a certain rank that is allowed.  If you can get a letter of recommendation from any of those people entitled to sit on the committee as alternates the others will never reject you.  I had a problem, since I worked for a rep office at the time which is not specifically disallowed but borderline and up to the discretion of the committee, since it is not a Thai incorporated company and cannot pay Thai corporate tax.  Fortunately I was able to get a warm letter of recommendation from a senior guy at the NIA who was an alternate on the committee, as he happened to be the uncle of one of my business partners.   One of my expat staff, who also applied the same year but didn't have the recommendations, was rejected (but got it the next year after we switched our business to a Thai corporate format through a jv with a large company).  

 

My argument though is that most people who earn over 80k working for a pukka Thai company will not have any need to go through all these shinanegans. Just a letter of recommendation from any type of pu yai you know, like a boss or business partner, is probably enough.  However, if your application is marginal for any reason, e.g. not working for a Thai tax paying outfit like me, these recommendations from the right people at Immigration and/or the committee could prove critically.   

[Arkady]

Immigration has now published the details for 2017 PR applications on its website. PR applications 2017.pdf.

 

The window for applications is 12-29 December.

[brianinbangkok]

My blue PR book book is almost full just 1 page, the last one side, is not used. Looks same as all the previous pages its not the cover :)

So can 1 get one more re entry permit in it or will the PR section insist I need to get the white replacement book issued?

Reason I ask is first takes 1 day. White book takes 4 days.

 

And I wish you all a

Happy New Year.

Edited January 1, 2018 by brianinbangkok

[onthemoon]

8 hours ago, brianinbangkok said:

My blue PR book book is almost full just 1 page, the last one side, is not used. Looks same as all the previous pages its not the cover :)

So can 1 get one more re entry permit in it or will the PR section insist I need to get the white replacement book issued?

Reason I ask is first takes 1 day. White book takes 4 days.

 

And I wish you all a

Happy New Year.

I'm don't understand why you don't apply for the white book while you are there. You'll need it anyway.

[brianinbangkok]

3 hours ago, onthemoon said:

I'm don't understand why you don't apply for the white book while you are there. You'll need it anyway.

I want to know if its possible.

If I know its not I will be able to plan my time beter.

No need to plan a week in bkk then.

[thedemon]

12 hours ago, brianinbangkok said:

My blue PR book book is almost full just 1 page, the last one side, is not used. Looks same as all the previous pages its not the cover :)

So can 1 get one more re entry permit in it or will the PR section insist I need to get the white replacement book issued?

Reason I ask is first takes 1 day. White book takes 4 days.

 

And I wish you all a

Happy New Year.

Officially a new residence Certificate take 4 working days but they can be persuaded to do it in 1. They may need some encouraging....

 

I did it a few months ago. I think it took less than 2 hours.

 

Happy New Year!

 

 

[brianinbangkok]

8 hours ago, thedemon said:

Officially a new residence Certificate take 4 working days but they can be persuaded to do it in 1. They may need some encouraging....

 

I did it a few months ago. I think it took less than 2 hours.

 

Happy New Year!

 

 

Good to know this.

What office did this for you?

I will be going to CW again.

 

Did they allow you to request a new book with old one not full yet?

Or do they insist all pages to be used?

Edited January 2, 2018 by brianinbangkok

[thedemon]

7 hours ago, brianinbangkok said:

Good to know this.

What office did this for you?

I will be going to CW again.

 

Did they allow you to request a new book with old one not full yet?

Or do they insist all pages to be used?

It was at CW.

 

My book wasn't quite full but they could see it wouldn't last another year.

[mortenaa]

On 1/2/2018 at 11:01 AM, onthemoon said:

I'm don't understand why you don't apply for the white book while you are there. You'll need it anyway.

 

What is this "white book" you are talking about?

[brianinbangkok]

7 hours ago, mortenaa said:

 

What is this "white book" you are talking about?

 

When the blue certificate of residence is full they issue a white certificate of residence book. I believe you need to keep both with you when you travel.

[onthemoon]

1 hour ago, brianinbangkok said:

9 hours ago, mortenaa said:

 

What is this "white book" you are talking about?

 

When the blue certificate of residence is full they issue a white certificate of residence book. I believe you need to keep both with you when you travel.

No, you don't need to take the blue (full) book with you when you travel. Only the white book, which has the same function and says "duplicate" for some reason.

[thedemon]

3 hours ago, onthemoon said:

No, you don't need to take the blue (full) book with you when you travel. Only the white book, which has the same function and says "duplicate" for some reason.

I don't think you get the blue book back when the white book is issued. I certainly didn't.

[onthemoon]

14 minutes ago, thedemon said:

I don't think you get the blue book back when the white book is issued. I certainly didn't.

You may be right. Anyway, the point is that you don't need to present it any more when you cross the border.

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, thedemon said:

I don't think you get the blue book back when the white book is issued. I certainly didn't.

You don't get the blue book back or any of the white books when they are filled and replaced.  Like many things to do with PR (including the issuance of poor quality red alien books that fall to pieces, instead of issuing modern smart cards) the reasons for replacing the blue book with a white one that says duplicate on it seem lost in the mist of time and I doubt that any of today's Immigration officers can explain it convincingly.  Perhaps the white one was originally intended only as a replacement for a lost book and they wanted to ensure that officials knew that, in case devious Chinese coolies were pretending they had lost their blue books but had actually it to another Chinese migrant who didn't have one.

[brianinbangkok]

Okay did not know they do not return the blue book once they issue white book. 

 

Another question.

 

Using the auto lane with the chip reader to go thru customs.

I think the call it autogate.

 

Do you have to go to the immigration desk that issues these autogate chip stickers at the airport to update them  every year when you get a new re entry permit ?

 

At the time the officer told me each time you get "new re entry permit" must come update information at her desk in the airport.

 

I really do not understand how you could actually follow the regulations that require us to present both passport and blue resident book and have customs put the leave/re enter stamps in it.

 

What if I leave using the automatic gate and then on return for some reason am forced to go thru a customs officer. No issue if exit stamps are missing ?

 

Guess its all in database.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by brianinbangkok

[onthemoon]

1 hour ago, brianinbangkok said:

Okay did not know they do not return the blue book once they issue white book. 

 

Another question.

 

Using the auto lane with the chip reader to go thru customs.

I think the call it autogate.

 

Do you have to go to the immigration desk that issues these autogate chip stickers at the airport to update them  every year when you get a new re entry permit ?

 

At the time the officer told me each time you get "new re entry permit" must come update information at her desk in the airport.

 

I really do not understand how you could actually follow the regulations that require us to present both passport and blue resident book and have customs put the leave/re enter stamps in it.

 

What if I leave using the automatic gate and then on return for some reason am forced to go thru a customs officer. No issue if exit stamps are missing ?

 

Guess its all in database.

You mean immigration, not customs. And yes, you need to go to the desk at the airport to update the new visa number into the system. I had a problem and the machine rejected my passport after I had the new visa, so the officer standing by the machines helped me try one machine after the other and I ended up going to the normal counter. Twice in a row. The third time, a superior was there, and he checked and then updated the new visa number in the system, and then it worked.

 

The blue (or white) residence book is  a dinosaur from the times when there were no computers at immigration. The Thai government wanted to keep track of the residents and since the passport is issued by another country, you had to get the stamps into that book. But now the record is in the computer so there is no reason for that book any more, but they haven't updated the law yet.

 

Last time I renewed my visa, they couldn't find the last entry stamp (because I didn't have any), and they just looked it up in the computer. No issue.

[thedemon]

3 hours ago, brianinbangkok said:

Okay did not know they do not return the blue book once they issue white book. 

 

Another question.

 

Using the auto lane with the chip reader to go thru customs.

I think the call it autogate.

 

Do you have to go to the immigration desk that issues these autogate chip stickers at the airport to update them  every year when you get a new re entry permit ?

 

At the time the officer told me each time you get "new re entry permit" must come update information at her desk in the airport.

 

I really do not understand how you could actually follow the regulations that require us to present both passport and blue resident book and have customs put the leave/re enter stamps in it.

 

What if I leave using the automatic gate and then on return for some reason am forced to go thru a customs officer. No issue if exit stamps are missing ?

 

Guess its all in database.

 

 

 

 

 

I first registered for Autochannel almost 2 years ago and they told me the same thing, that I would need have the system updated after each new Re-Entry. However I have had 2 new Re-Entries since then, haven't done anything and Autochannel is still working.

 

You are supposed to carry your blue/white PR book whenever you travel but so long as you use the Autochannel gates no one would know whether you had it or not. Similarly with the TM6 arrival/departure cards, immigration told me that PR's still need to submit them. However there isn't anyone asking for them and it doesn't seem to matter when I don't submit them.

 

I usually use the Autochannel gates on entry but depart through a manual lane with I/O because it's generally faster due to the security queue at the main area. So my passport (and PR book) has departure stamps but no entry stamps. Doesn't seem to create any problems with Immigration. Occasionally though it confuses the airline check-in staff if they check for the permitted to remain date. 

[brianinbangkok]

Okay thanks for the information.

 

Immigration not customs yes....

[Arkady]

10 hours ago, onthemoon said:

You mean immigration, not customs. And yes, you need to go to the desk at the airport to update the new visa number into the system. I had a problem and the machine rejected my passport after I had the new visa, so the officer standing by the machines helped me try one machine after the other and I ended up going to the normal counter. Twice in a row. The third time, a superior was there, and he checked and then updated the new visa number in the system, and then it worked.

 

The blue (or white) residence book is  a dinosaur from the times when there were no computers at immigration. The Thai government wanted to keep track of the residents and since the passport is issued by another country, you had to get the stamps into that book. But now the record is in the computer so there is no reason for that book any more, but they haven't updated the law yet.

 

Last time I renewed my visa, they couldn't find the last entry stamp (because I didn't have any), and they just looked it up in the computer. No issue.

You are right re the pointlessness today of the blue and white books.  The red book is even more of an anachronism.  It pre-dates the issue of ID cards for Thai nationals.  Following the first Immigration Act in 1927 the Thai government devised the system to to keep track of the large numbers of Chinese immigrants, some of whom were involved in triad criminal gangs.  So the police stations were logically given the job of issuing the books and tracking their movements.  The alien book needed to be carried at all times to be presented on demand to police by Chinese who were could often be recognised by their Chinese dress and hair styles.  The modern day equivalent is the pink ID card for migrant workers (and PRs).  However, the redundant system of alien books continues to run in parallel with no one knowing or caring what was the original reason for it.  There are a lot people employed at Immigration and in police stations to issue these books.  At police stations there is a man who sits with a  sign in front of him denoting him as the officer of in charge of issuing alien books.   These are plum jobs with only a few minutes work needed per day on average that need to be preserved at all costs.  It is hardly surprising that the officer is often absent from his desk .