Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, mortenaa said:

Has anyone started their citizen application this year? Do they accept applications now? I'm coming up to 5 years soon, and plan to apply.  

They accept citizenship applications all year. Only permanent residency are limited to certain period at the end of the year.

See this long ongoing topic about applying for Thai nationality. https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/121353-story-of-my-thai-citizenship-application/

 

 

[rimmae2]

50 minutes ago, mortenaa said:

Has anyone started their citizen application this year? Do they accept applications now? I'm coming up to 5 years soon, and plan to apply.  

Have a look at:

 

Story of My Thai Citizenship Application

 

At least one PR (THAIJAMES) has started recently, plus others who may not be PR in initial/thinking about it stage.   

[THAIJAMES]

8 hours ago, rimmae2 said:

Have a look at:

 

Story of My Thai Citizenship Application

 

At least one PR (THAIJAMES) has started recently, plus others who may not be PR in initial/thinking about it stage.   

Submitted my application about one month ago in Chiang Mai everything is going smoothly and pretty fast.

 

Had my Nia interview yesterday no problems and I have another local police (santibaan) interview tomorrow.  I don't expect any problems.

 

According to my SB officer he might be able to send everything to the ministry of interior within a few months as the NIA was the main hurdle in the past.

[mortenaa]

15 hours ago, THAIJAMES said:

Submitted my application about one month ago in Chiang Mai everything is going smoothly and pretty fast.

 

Had my Nia interview yesterday no problems and I have another local police (santibaan) interview tomorrow.  I don't expect any problems.

 

According to my SB officer he might be able to send everything to the ministry of interior within a few months as the NIA was the main hurdle in the past.

Nice!

Did you do the documents process yourselves? 

So there are no extra obstacles because of the current 'situation' ?  

[THAIJAMES]

7 hours ago, mortenaa said:

Nice!

Did you do the documents process yourselves? 

So there are no extra obstacles because of the current 'situation' ?  

Yes I did all the documents myself should be relatively easy if you've gone through the permanent resident process as the documentation used is very similar.

 

My only hiccup was the renunciation letter from the US consulate when I contacted them they said they wouldn't do them but when I went there in person it was absolutely no problem.

 

The covid situation has definitely affected things I was actually supposed to Lodge my application 2 months before. I had to wait for things to settled down here in Chiang Mai as we were the epicenter for a while.  And the NIA officer informed me that for the last year and a half they haven't done any interviews at all because they need to interview people in person and the covid situation didn't allow that.  She informed me that because of the increased cases recently she might have to stop interviewing depending on directives from the higher-ups.

[sas_cars]

I was also on the same batch of PR approvals as thaijames so more than 5 years now on PR already. But currently I am out of country and will apply for citizenship once I arrive back in Thailand. Probably early next year. I am also not married to a thai so will be applying solely on basis of 5 years PR

[mortenaa]

7 hours ago, sas_cars said:

I was also on the same batch of PR approvals as thaijames so more than 5 years now on PR already. But currently I am out of country and will apply for citizenship once I arrive back in Thailand. Probably early next year. I am also not married to a thai so will be applying solely on basis of 5 years PR

 

Thats my plan as well. No marriage in sight????

[mortenaa]

14 hours ago, THAIJAMES said:

Yes I did all the documents myself should be relatively easy if you've gone through the permanent resident process as the documentation used is very similar.

 

My only hiccup was the renunciation letter from the US consulate when I contacted them they said they wouldn't do them but when I went there in person it was absolutely no problem.

 

The covid situation has definitely affected things I was actually supposed to Lodge my application 2 months before. I had to wait for things to settled down here in Chiang Mai as we were the epicenter for a while.  And the NIA officer informed me that for the last year and a half they haven't done any interviews at all because they need to interview people in person and the covid situation didn't allow that.  She informed me that because of the increased cases recently she might have to stop interviewing depending on directives from the higher-ups.

My plan is to keep my current citizenship, as Norway accept dual now. Did the ask you to renounce your US one??  

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, mortenaa said:

Did the ask you to renounce your US one??  

Renouncing you existing citizenship is not required according to the nationality act.

But the interior ministry wants a statement of intent to do it for the citizenship application.

[Arkady]

7 hours ago, mortenaa said:

My plan is to keep my current citizenship, as Norway accept dual now. Did the ask you to renounce your US one??  

 

It is an odd situation, as Joe said. Like many Thai laws the Nationality Act is ambivalent on this point.  There are provisions allowing for revocation of Thai nationality from naturalised Thais under certain circumstances including making use of or taking an active interest in original nationality but there is no specific provision to require renunciation.  Until 2009 they seemed perfectly happy to allow people to retain their other nationality and said things at the MoI interview like,"Does your country allow you to keep your citizenship after you become Thai? Oh good. That's nice for you."  Then in 2009 came the bombshell.  An extra para appeared in the MoI guidelines which are not from a ministerial regulation published in the Royal Gazette and therefore do not have the force of law. This para required applicants to submit an affidavit witnessed at the applicant's embassy expressing intent to renounce original nationality after getting Thai nationality. At first Special Branch was confused about the new guideline introduced, as they pointed out, without any amendment to the Act or ministerial regulation and informally recommended applicants to either ignore or follow it, as they liked.  But soon all the pleasanteries about retaining another citizenship ceased and SB and the MoI were on the same page in telling people they had to renounce former nationality. 

 

What was the reason for this chance of stance?  The most likely explanation is that the MoI felt felt very threatened by the amendment to the Nationality Act in 2008 forced through parliament by a lady Democrat MP in support of Thai women's  rights. This amendment allowed foreign husband's of Thai women to apply for citizenship without getting PR first to put Thai women closer to parity with Thai men who could easily get citizenship for their foreign wives. There is documentary evidence that the legal department of the MoI vigorously resisted the amendment, which they portrayed as a threat to national security without making clear in the document the precise nature of the threat from foreign husbands vs foreign wives.  Anyway they succeeded in watering down the amendment but not blocking it.  So it seems quite possible that, having failed to change the law as much as they wanted, they settled for making changes to the guidelines that they hoped would stem the flow of naturalisations, without going through the legal process. At any rate, when you consider that roughly the majority of applicants are Chinese and Indian, the new guideline, which includes writing to embassies to inform them of naturalisations of their citizens, should mean that embassies will revoke their citizenships and do the MoI's work for them.  

 

Now 13 years on from the amendment it doesn't seem as if the MoI's obvious fears of a torrent of naturalisations of men with Thai wives threatening national security has taken place.  Many of those applying with Thai wives would have got PR and become Thai anyway 5 years later and the Chinese and Indian applicants tend to have wives from their own country. One other objection to dual nationality from the MoI was that having another nationality facilitates criminal activities.  But this seems a bit far fetched in the case of naturalisation to Thai, given the detailed scrutiny, the lengthy process and the sheer hassle.  There are plenty of countries in the Caribbean where criminals can easily buy citizenship without even travelling there.

[sas_cars]

On another note, does some one have any info for the amnesty which PR holders enjoy currently once out of country for more than 1 year? Has someone gotten to use this amnesty and restore their PR status successfully?

[scorecard]

22 hours ago, sas_cars said:

On another note, does some one have any info for the amnesty which PR holders enjoy currently once out of country for more than 1 year? Has someone gotten to use this amnesty and restore their PR status successfully?

 

Not quite.

 

I haven't yet returned (my reason for this is personal and I don't intend to discuss it here, except to say that there are serious medical reasons involved which connect to the Covid 19 situation. I do have a projected return date but, as above, I'm not going to discuss it here).

 

I have several times asked Thai Immigration Division 1, by e.mail, to confirm:

• no final return date has been fixed, or
• the final return date.

They have replied (usually about 10 days after my mail) and confirmed no return date has yet been fixed, same as in the message in the graphic just below from:

https://www.facebook.com/Immigration-Bureau-110945480551231/photos/pcb.258393802473064/258393785806399/:

I check this facebook page every day to see if there's any new announcements, so far nothing.

 

From another source i've seen mention that the extension is 'indefinite'.

 

Earlier, when desperate to get any information I spoke to a snr officer from Division 3 (pleasant guy, perfect English and please note: Div 3 aren't responsible to fix the final return date, that's Div 1). He mentioned that PR holders have a 'visa for lifetime', and the final return date is a minor administrative item, so there is no need to be in a hurry to fix the final return date. He also mentioned that he has no specific knowledge of when an announcement might be made by Div 1.

 

I plan to send a mail again to Div 1 in late September to hopefully get a further confirmation:

• no final return date has been fixed, or
• the final return date.

 

Earlier graphic published by Thai Imm. Div. 1:

[onthemoon]

2 hours ago, scorecard said:

Earlier, when desperate to get any information I spoke to a snr officer from Division 3 (pleasant guy, perfect English and please note: Div 3 aren't responsible to fix the final return date, that's Div 1). He mentioned that PR holders have a 'visa for lifetime',

 I wish this were true. The exception for Covid notwithstanding, we do need a re-entry permit, otherwise the PR will be cancelled upon re-entry. That, along with the need for a work permit for PR holders, are my two pet peeves with the PR regulations.

[scorecard]

33 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

 I wish this were true. The exception for Covid notwithstanding, we do need a re-entry permit, otherwise the PR will be cancelled upon re-entry. That, along with the need for a work permit for PR holders, are my two pet peeves with the PR regulations.

 

I'm not sure what your point is:

 

- The return by date on the re-entry permit (on passports and in the C of R book) has been extended by official order signed by the PM and the Interior Minister (this overrides "...we do need a re-entry permit, otherwise the PR will be cancelled upon re-entry."   . . The new final return by date has not yet been announced.

 

- You mention 'also need a work permit'. I don't understand what you mean:

• Current Certificate of Residence (PR) holders don't need to continue to have a work permit. Many PR holders retired from their work years ago (me included), this has no effect on continuing to hold a Certificate of Residence (PR) for life.
• But perhaps your referring to the requirements to qualify for a Certificate of Residence (PR) which another subject.

[onthemoon]

7 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

I'm not sure what your point is:

 

- The return by date on the re-entry permit (on passports and in the C of R book) has been extended by official order signed by the PM and the Interior Minister (this overrides "...we do need a re-entry permit, otherwise the PR will be cancelled upon re-entry."   . . The new final return by date has not yet been announced.

 

- You mention 'also need a work permit'. I don't understand what you mean:

• Current Certificate of Residence (PR) holders don't need to continue to have a work permit. Many PR holders retired from their work years ago (me included), this has no effect on continuing to hold a Certificate of Residence (PR) for life.
• But perhaps your referring to the requirements to qualify for a Certificate of Residence (PR) which another subject.

1.) About the return date: I said "the exception for Covid notwithstanding". There should be no need for any re-entry permit (or Non-Quota Immigrant Visa, as they call it) which usually expires after one year. I once forgot to renew it, and luckily the immigration officer at Suvannabhumi noticed this and asked whether I am sure to leave the country without it and lose my PR upon return. Luckily, it was a trip within ASEAN, so I rushed to CW, got a new Visa (!) and could take another flight on the same day. I missed only the welcoming reception of a three-day conference, so no harm done. It would have been another story had I missed an important meeting and lost business because of that.

 

2.) Sorry to break it to you: Yes, you do need a work permit if you want to work. That should not be required for PR holders.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

13 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

 

 

- You mention 'also need a work permit'. I don't understand what you mean:

• Current Certificate of Residence (PR) holders don't need to continue to have a work permit. Many PR holders retired from their work years ago (me included), this has no effect on continuing to hold a Certificate of Residence (PR) for life.
• But perhaps your referring to the requirements to qualify for a Certificate of Residence (PR) which another subject.

I think he was referring to the requirement that PR holders have a work permit in order to legally work in the kingdom.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

I think he was referring to the requirement that PR holders have a work permit in order to legally work in the kingdom.

 

I understand all of that; 

Yes there has been an ongoing discussion for years whether Certificate of Residence holders should/should not need a work permit, my personal opinion (repeat just my personal opinion) is that they should not need a work permit but perhaps ther

1 hour ago, onthemoon said:

1.) About the return date: I said "the exception for Covid notwithstanding". There should be no need for any re-entry permit (or Non-Quota Immigrant Visa, as they call it) which usually expires after one year. I once forgot to renew it, and luckily the immigration officer at Suvannabhumi noticed this and asked whether I am sure to leave the country without it and lose my PR upon return. Luckily, it was a trip within ASEAN, so I rushed to CW, got a new Visa (!) and could take another flight on the same day. I missed only the welcoming reception of a three-day conference, so no harm done. It would have been another story had I missed an important meeting and lost business because of that.

 

2.) Sorry to break it to you: Yes, you do need a work permit if you want to work. That should not be required for PR holders.

Your points taken/accepted. 

 

With all respect I submitted a message prompted by a post specific to the final date to return under the Covid 19 situation.

 

No further comment.   

 

[THAIJAMES]

On 7/1/2021 at 9:24 AM, mortenaa said:

My plan is to keep my current citizenship, as Norway accept dual now. Did the ask you to renounce your US one??  

It's just a formality you're not actually required to renounce your citizenship.

[FarangFB]

I read quite a few pages here but haven't found a recent list of requirements. Based on this, should I try for it this year or will it be a waste of time?

 

I have:

- a degree from a (now closed) Thai university

- been on marriage extensions for 6 years, got a kid

- same work permit (but from a bar business) for the past 4 years

- did some 4-5 charity things that I can prove with photos

- My declared salary has always been 50k (and paying taxes for this salary), but I get some extra from savings abroad when needed

 

Getting criminal records certificate and some things translated will be a pain though, Bangkok is quite restricted these times. Should I try anyway or wait for next year?

[scorecard]

28 minutes ago, FarangFB said:

I read quite a few pages here but haven't found a recent list of requirements. Based on this, should I try for it this year or will it be a waste of time?

 

I have:

- a degree from a (now closed) Thai university

- been on marriage extensions for 6 years, got a kid

- same work permit (but from a bar business) for the past 4 years

- did some 4-5 charity things that I can prove with photos

- My declared salary has always been 50k (and paying taxes for this salary), but I get some extra from savings abroad when needed

 

Getting criminal records certificate and some things translated will be a pain though, Bangkok is quite restricted these times. Should I try anyway or wait for next year?

" My declared salary has always been 50k (and paying taxes for this salary), ..."

 

You need to have evidence of holding a Thai work permit for at least 3 years, plus evidence that you have submitted your annual Thai personal tax return and it has been finalised for 3 years.

 

Plus you must be holding a work permit at the time of lodging your PR application.

[rimmae2]

10 minutes ago, scorecard said:

" My declared salary has always been 50k (and paying taxes for this salary), ..."

 

You need to have evidence of holding a Thai work permit for at least 3 years, plus evidence that you have submitted your annual Thai personal tax return and it has been finalised for 3 years.

 

Plus you must be holding a work permit at the time of lodging your PR application.

I thought that salary should be minimum of 80k per month, but may be out of date with this information.

[ubonjoe]

36 minutes ago, rimmae2 said:

I thought that salary should be minimum of 80k per month, but may be out of date with this information.

He is married to a Thai. The salary in that case is 50k baht to do the application.

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, FarangFB said:

I read quite a few pages here but haven't found a recent list of requirements. Based on this, should I try for it this year or will it be a waste of time?

Have you considered applying for Thai nationality instead of permanent residency. You can apply for it since you are married to a Thai and the minimum salary is only 40k baht.

[FarangFB]

7 hours ago, scorecard said:

" My declared salary has always been 50k (and paying taxes for this salary), ..."

 

You need to have evidence of holding a Thai work permit for at least 3 years, plus evidence that you have submitted your annual Thai personal tax return and it has been finalised for 3 years.

 

Plus you must be holding a work permit at the time of lodging your PR application.

Yes I have all that

 

6 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Have you considered applying for Thai nationality instead of permanent residency. You can apply for it since you are married to a Thai and the minimum salary is only 40k baht.

I heard that one is truly difficult (way more than PR). I never gave it a thought because I've heard Jomtien immigration won't do it and a having a WP from a bar really doesn't help. Would you try it in my place? 

[ubonjoe]

5 hours ago, FarangFB said:

I heard that one is truly difficult (way more than PR). I never gave it a thought because I've heard Jomtien immigration won't do it and a having a WP from a bar really doesn't help. Would you try it in my place? 

Immigration has nothing to do with applying for Thai nationality. It is applied for at the special branch police. A big advantage is the cost compared to PR. The only fee is 5000 baht compared to about 93k baht for the residence certificate after PR is granted. Have a look at ongoing topic about it. https://aseannow.com/topic/121353-story-of-my-thai-citizenship-application/

 

[mrpickledgherkins]

On 7/3/2021 at 7:06 AM, scorecard said:

 

Not quite.

 

I haven't yet returned (my reason for this is personal and I don't intend to discuss it here, except to say that there are serious medical reasons involved which connect to the Covid 19 situation. I do have a projected return date but, as above, I'm not going to discuss it here).

 

I have several times asked Thai Immigration Division 1, by e.mail, to confirm:

• no final return date has been fixed, or
• the final return date.

They have replied (usually about 10 days after my mail) and confirmed no return date has yet been fixed, same as in the message in the graphic just below from:

https://www.facebook.com/Immigration-Bureau-110945480551231/photos/pcb.258393802473064/258393785806399/:

I check this facebook page every day to see if there's any new announcements, so far nothing.

 

From another source i've seen mention that the extension is 'indefinite'.

 

Earlier, when desperate to get any information I spoke to a snr officer from Division 3 (pleasant guy, perfect English and please note: Div 3 aren't responsible to fix the final return date, that's Div 1). He mentioned that PR holders have a 'visa for lifetime', and the final return date is a minor administrative item, so there is no need to be in a hurry to fix the final return date. He also mentioned that he has no specific knowledge of when an announcement might be made by Div 1.

 

I plan to send a mail again to Div 1 in late September to hopefully get a further confirmation:

• no final return date has been fixed, or
• the final return date.

 

Earlier graphic published by Thai Imm. Div. 1:

Hi.... Just wanted to check has there been any further update on this? 

[scorecard]

46 minutes ago, mrpickledgherkins said:

Hi.... Just wanted to check has there been any further update on this? 

Not that I am aware of?

 

I check the Thai Immigration Bureau facebook page carefully every day and up to today I've not seen any further announcements and I hope I haven't missed any facebook messages.

 

With all respect please don't assume that I have any 'inside' information on this subject; I don't!

 

Please don't see me as an authority or expert on this subject, I'm not. I sincerely request that you please follow up yourself.

 

And if you do find further information/details/announcements please share. 

 

One sidepoint:

I somehow doubt that the Thai Immigration Bureau will fix a final date for PR holders to return soon considering all the current issues and problems. But I have no facts etc., to base this on, just a wild guess. 

[Arkady]

On 7/12/2021 at 1:44 AM, FarangFB said:

Yes I have all that

 

I heard that one is truly difficult (way more than PR). I never gave it a thought because I've heard Jomtien immigration won't do it and a having a WP from a bar really doesn't help. Would you try it in my place? 

Having been through both processes, my opinion is that, apart from the higher cost, citizenship is a much easier and more friendly process than PR.  As time goes by the PR process seems to get harder and nastier at a more rapid rate than citizenship, even though the latter also gets harder and, indeed, adopts some of the innovations introduced into the PR process, albeit at a slower rate.  Although both processes are under the Interior Ministry which makes the ultimate decisions, the big difference is that Immigration handles applications for PR and Special Branch handles applications for citizenship.  At Special Branch in Bangkok the two citizenship sections (there is a separate one just to handle applications from foreign women with Thai husbands) are an oddity unrelated to Special Branch's normal duties and officers enjoy a posting there as light relief.  They like interacting with foreign applicants and generally seem to want you to get through.  The PR sections at Immigration are also plum postings, due to the relatively light work load, but dealing with foreigners is no novelty for Immigration officers and the culture there promotes suspicion of foreigners.

 

One particular issue with PR is that by law applications can only open at a certain time after a cabinet resolution confirms the quota of 100 per nationality and 50 stateless persons which never changes.  That means the window for applications can open any time from June to late December and you need to have all you documents ready in advance, if it opens late because the cut off is usually the year end.  The year I applied the window opened from 15 to 31 December and I only just had enough time to do it all before getting on a plane.  Citizenship applications can be submitted any working day of the year. 

[sas_cars]

17 hours ago, scorecard said:

Not that I am aware of?

 

I check the Thai Immigration Bureau facebook page carefully every day and up to today I've not seen any further announcements and I hope I haven't missed any facebook messages.

 

With all respect please don't assume that I have any 'inside' information on this subject; I don't!

 

Please don't see me as an authority or expert on this subject, I'm not. I sincerely request that you please follow up yourself.

 

And if you do find further information/details/announcements please share. 

 

One sidepoint:

I somehow doubt that the Thai Immigration Bureau will fix a final date for PR holders to return soon considering all the current issues and problems. But I have no facts etc., to base this on, just a wild guess. 

To be on the safe side, if PR is something very important for someone that he can't afford to lose it, I suggest jumping all the hoops and don't let it lapse. Thailand immigration and other authorities are usually found to be taking their words back and forth with unclear definitions as in such.

[sas_cars]

3 minutes ago, Arkady said:

Having been through both processes, my opinion is that, apart from the higher cost, citizenship is a much easier and more friendly process than PR.  As time goes by the PR process seems to get harder and nastier at a more rapid rate than citizenship, even though the latter also gets harder and, indeed, adopts some of the innovations introduced into the PR process, albeit at a slower rate.  Although both processes are under the Interior Ministry which makes the ultimate decisions, the big difference is that Immigration handles applications for PR and Special Branch handles applications for citizenship.  At Special Branch in Bangkok the two citizenship sections (there is a separate one just to handle applications from foreign women with Thai husbands) are an oddity unrelated to Special Branch's normal duties and officers enjoy a posting there as light relief.  They like interacting with foreign applicants and generally seem to want you to get through.  The PR sections at Immigration are also plum postings, due to the relatively light work load, but dealing with foreigners is no novelty for Immigration officers and the culture there promotes suspicion of foreigners.

suspicion plus if possible, milking of foreigners as much as possible. lol.