Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[MikeyIdea]

TM called me yesterday SUNDAY afternoon at 5PM and wanted to be sure that I'd come in directly the morning on Monday (today) as they were ready to send over the papers to the Ministry of Foreign affairs. 2009 is leaving immigration now the officer said. She did not want to comment anything about when the Ministry would process though

My stupid, Ministry of Interior of course, not Foreign affairs...

Did you go in, and what happened?

Sorry, got no email telling me that you posted

Yes, I went there first thing on Monday morning and signed the paper saying that I still want my residency. The officer confirmed that my year was complete and would be sent on to the ministry of Interior "doan"

I understand the latest flurry of activity as TM (immigration) has been told (or has decided) to complete THEIR backlog and that they now are ready up to 2009 anyway. That is one thing. Ministry of Interior is a totally different thing and I don't think we have anything except rumours about when they are going to process

TM must be really pressed to call on a Sunday afternoon... They have really been told (or decided) to clean up their desk - I am dying to know the reason

[ubonjoe]

I have been considering starting to make preparations to appy for PR but I guess there is no big hurry if they still have such a backlog.

I suspect that there have been some completed that nobody on TV is aware of because theirs was pulled out of the stack because they have an influencial lawyer or friend.

The tax angle for proof of income is the biggist problem since I have never worked here. So now I would just have to report mine and the wifes income to come up with the required average for an application based upon marriage to a Thai.

It would be nice if immigration would accept tax payments as proof of income without a work permit for extensions. That at least would save the costs of making a trip to the embassy and paying an outrages fee every year for the proof of income document.

I guess with the long time span before approval would give you plenty of time save the 92K baht needed after approval.

[brianinbangkok]

I'm coming up to the first renewal of my Alien's Book. Can someone give my an idea of the process and what documents I need to take? Do I have to read or write anything in Thai, as was required when I first registered? Also, my passport has been renewed. What's the process in getting the new ID number in my Alien's Book?

Do you mean you need a new Alien's book or that you have to do the first 5 year reporting at police station ? I am told I need to go to local police station and have them sign it once every 5 years or whenever you move house. Seems pretty straight forwards after my wife called the police station, just come and have them sign it, like any other time when I moved from tabien baan to next one.

Another question from me is can we still visit the immigration in the morning hand in Passport and Certificate of Residence (PR blue book) and pick it up same day in afternoon ?

[tombkk]

Thanks, MikeyIdea, for the update. Let's keep fingers crossed.

[camerata]

Do you mean you need a new Alien's book or that you have to do the first 5 year reporting at police station ? I am told I need to go to local police station and have them sign it once every 5 years or whenever you move house.

I mean I need to do the 5-year registration of the red Alien's Book. I'm told it is pretty straightforward but they might ask me for a recent photograph, presumably if my appearance has changed a lot.

Another question from me is can we still visit the immigration in the morning hand in Passport and Certificate of Residence (PR blue book) and pick it up same day in afternoon ?

As of last August, yes.

[MarkCyr]

And I thought it was tough to get a PR in Japan! Seems way more complicated in Thailand. Although a little less complicated now -- Thanks for the amazingly detailed info, Camerata! Cheers!

[brianinbangkok]

Interesting reading regarding to renewal of the red Alien's Book can be found here: http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/base.php?page=service#

[puyaidon]

I had a friend (US) years ago who had a permanent residence visa and after what he went through, he said he would not do it again. He had to hit the police station every year for their clearance and then to immigration for their stamp. It boiled down to either 191,400 baht (if single) or 95,700 baht if the spouse of Thai national or 1,900 baht for a retirement visa. He still had to get a re-entry permit each time he planned on leaving the country. I am an American also and having listened to him, I will stick to the retirement visa option. It is a choice of what you want. $6,000 is not something I like to spend just to apply with a possibility of refusal. Not a good option.

[Arkady]

I had a friend (US) years ago who had a permanent residence visa and after what he went through, he said he would not do it again. He had to hit the police station every year for their clearance and then to immigration for their stamp. It boiled down to either 191,400 baht (if single) or 95,700 baht if the spouse of Thai national or 1,900 baht for a retirement visa. He still had to get a re-entry permit each time he planned on leaving the country. I am an American also and having listened to him, I will stick to the retirement visa option. It is a choice of what you want. $6,000 is not something I like to spend just to apply with a possibility of refusal. Not a good option.

You don't need to go to the police station every year for "clearance". You need to go every five years to renew your alien book which is a simple, routine and inexpensive procedure. You need to go to Immigration once a year for an endorsement in your resident's book, if you wish to travel abroad. If not, you don't need to go to Immigration. That annual endorsement at Immigration is effectively your re-entry permit and there is no need to get it for each trip abroad, unless you choose to pay a one off re-entry fee instead of the one year multi-entry fee. Even so, you can buy several one off re-entry permits at a time, rather than go to Immigration each time but the multi-entry endorsement is what regular travellers are advised by Immigration to get.

You would not risk paying the full fee and losing it if rejected. The full fee is only payable on approval. The non-refundable application fee is Bt 5,000. Since you are on a retirement visa, you are ineligible to apply for PR which requires a job with work permit and salary tax receipts for three complete calendar years. So it is good thing you are satisfied with your lot, even though your reasons for not wanting PR status make no sense.

When I applied in the 90s the cost was Bt 2,000 non-refundable and Bt 50,000 on approval and approval or rejection was guaranteed within 12 months. At the time many expats ridiculed me for going to such a hassle and expense but later had cause to regret not applying themselves when they suddenly lost their jobs and work permits or struggled with the ever changing rules for various types of temporary visa. Some of them changed their minds belatedly and have been in the logjam waiting for PR for several years. These things only ever get more difficult in Thailand.

[Mario2008]

Small correction, fee for PR application is now 7,600 baht according to the immigration police website.

[Arkady]

Small correction, fee for PR application is now 7,600 baht according to the immigration police website.

Thanks Mario.

[camerata]

I renewed my Alien's Book today and was in and out of the police station in 10 minutes. No documents required other than the Alien's Book and no copies requested. They didn't seem to care that my passport had changed. I just signed the form, and paid 800 baht for 5 years.

[Arkady]

I renewed my Alien's Book today and was in and out of the police station in 10 minutes. No documents required other than the Alien's Book and no copies requested. They didn't seem to care that my passport had changed. I just signed the form, and paid 800 baht for 5 years.

Well, its an curious piece of bureaucracy from a bygone age that nobody seems to care much about it these days. It used to be an essential document for the police to use in controlling the large Chinese immigrant population who could be stopped and asked to show it at any moment. Try and use it in a bank or such like to prove your identity today, explaining that it is your Thai government issued personal identification document, and they just look at it with a puzzled expression and say, "Passport please".

[tombkk]

I renewed my Alien's Book today and was in and out of the police station in 10 minutes. No documents required other than the Alien's Book and no copies requested. They didn't seem to care that my passport had changed. I just signed the form, and paid 800 baht for 5 years.

Well, its an curious piece of bureaucracy from a bygone age that nobody seems to care much about it these days. It used to be an essential document for the police to use in controlling the large Chinese immigrant population who could be stopped and asked to show it at any moment. Try and use it in a bank or such like to prove your identity today, explaining that it is your Thai government issued personal identification document, and they just look at it with a puzzled expression and say, "Passport please".

And when they say "Passport please", I give them my Thai driver's licence and everybody is happy.

You are right that the Alien's Book is a part of the bureaucracy from a bygone age. In Taiwan ten years ago, I had an Alien Registration Card (ARC), which was about the size of a credit card. The staying permit (a stamp in the passport) was valid as long as the work permit, regardless of whether I wanted to leave the country in the meantime or not, so no need for a re-entry permit.

[Peabody]

Note: I applied for PR just this past December (2011). Yesterday, I was told to go in on 24 May (next week) for my language interview. I hope things keep rolling along.

[howzat]

I had a friend (US) years ago who had a permanent residence visa and after what he went through, he said he would not do it again. He had to hit the police station every year for their clearance and then to immigration for their stamp. It boiled down to either 191,400 baht (if single) or 95,700 baht if the spouse of Thai national or 1,900 baht for a retirement visa. He still had to get a re-entry permit each time he planned on leaving the country. I am an American also and having listened to him, I will stick to the retirement visa option. It is a choice of what you want. $6,000 is not something I like to spend just to apply with a possibility of refusal. Not a good option.

You don't need to go to the police station every year for "clearance". You need to go every five years to renew your alien book which is a simple, routine and inexpensive procedure. You need to go to Immigration once a year for an endorsement in your resident's book, if you wish to travel abroad. If not, you don't need to go to Immigration. That annual endorsement at Immigration is effectively your re-entry permit and there is no need to get it for each trip abroad, unless you choose to pay a one off re-entry fee instead of the one year multi-entry fee. Even so, you can buy several one off re-entry permits at a time, rather than go to Immigration each time but the multi-entry endorsement is what regular travellers are advised by Immigration to get.

You would not risk paying the full fee and losing it if rejected. The full fee is only payable on approval. The non-refundable application fee is Bt 5,000. Since you are on a retirement visa, you are ineligible to apply for PR which requires a job with work permit and salary tax receipts for three complete calendar years. So it is good thing you are satisfied with your lot, even though your reasons for not wanting PR status make no sense.

When I applied in the 90s the cost was Bt 2,000 non-refundable and Bt 50,000 on approval and approval or rejection was guaranteed within 12 months. At the time many expats ridiculed me for going to such a hassle and expense but later had cause to regret not applying themselves when they suddenly lost their jobs and work permits or struggled with the ever changing rules for various types of temporary visa. Some of them changed their minds belatedly and have been in the logjam waiting for PR for several years. These things only ever get more difficult in Thailand.

I applied in 2006. I retired last month after working and paying taxes in Thailand since 1999. Will my application still be valid even though I am now on a retirement visa..

[GabbaGabbaHey]

I applied in 2006. I retired last month after working and paying taxes in Thailand since 1999. Will my application still be valid even though I am now on a retirement visa..

The application is valid until the final decision is made to grant the permit or to deny it. The only thing anyone should do in that case is to go to the permanent residence section and get the 6-month extension of stay under residence application. But perhaps you cut the link with the process and did something else? Anyway you should go to see them.

[Arkady]

Note: I applied for PR just this past December (2011). Yesterday, I was told to go in on 24 May (next week) for my language interview. I hope things keep rolling along.

I hope your interview went well. I heard that a batch of about 40 2011 applicants were interviewed by a panel of quite senior looking civil servants.

[scorecard]

I renewed my Alien's Book today and was in and out of the police station in 10 minutes. No documents required other than the Alien's Book and no copies requested. They didn't seem to care that my passport had changed. I just signed the form, and paid 800 baht for 5 years.

Well, its an curious piece of bureaucracy from a bygone age that nobody seems to care much about it these days. It used to be an essential document for the police to use in controlling the large Chinese immigrant population who could be stopped and asked to show it at any moment. Try and use it in a bank or such like to prove your identity today, explaining that it is your Thai government issued personal identification document, and they just look at it with a puzzled expression and say, "Passport please".

Agree, the bottom line is that most government employees, including the police don't even know what the Resdence Certificate (actually a small book) is.

On numerous occasions when pulled over by the police I have shown my 'book', watched the policemans face and it's clear they don't know what it is, and on most occasions they have gone into small panic mode: saluted, clapped their shoes and very politely informed me to proceed with lots of whistle blowing and hand signals to get me back into the traffic flow.

Another example - 2 years back my car registration was up for renewal and I decided to transfer the ownership (the blue book) to my adult Thai son's name.

Son took all the expected documents to the land transport office at chatujuck and had the misfortunate to meet the dragon from hell. She insisted that:

1. My son's Thai ID card was false because it's illegal for Thai people to have a farang surname, he also produced his passport, again she said it was fake, and

2. My Resident Certificate book was a fake because there is no such thing in Thailand.

After several return visits my son was informed that the dragon from hell was off sick, and a couple of other staff very quickly processed the registration transfer with some serious apologies to my son.

[tombkk]

Another example - 2 years back my car registration was up for renewal and I decided to transfer the ownership (the blue book) to my adult Thai son's name.

Son took all the expected documents to the land transport office at chatujuck and had the misfortunate to meet the dragon from hell. She insisted that:

1. My son's Thai ID card was false because it's illegal for Thai people to have a farang surname, he also produced his passport, again she said it was fake, and

2. My Resident Certificate book was a fake because there is no such thing in Thailand.

After several return visits my son was informed that the dragon from hell was off sick, and a couple of other staff very quickly processed the registration transfer with some serious apologies to my son.

You should have insisted on talking to their superior rather than having to come again. There used to be a rule that you have to choose a Thai name when you naturalize, but that was changed years ago. She might have mixed that up. The fault was not with the "dragon" but with her superior for not having trained her properly. She thought that what she said was the law, and it is correct that she had to uphold the law.

In one case I had a government officer call to the ministry who then informed her that she was wrong and I was right. This was not at immigration but at another government agency. The problem is that the government officers are not trained and updated properly.

[Arkady]

Another example - 2 years back my car registration was up for renewal and I decided to transfer the ownership (the blue book) to my adult Thai son's name.

Son took all the expected documents to the land transport office at chatujuck and had the misfortunate to meet the dragon from hell. She insisted that:

1. My son's Thai ID card was false because it's illegal for Thai people to have a farang surname, he also produced his passport, again she said it was fake, and

2. My Resident Certificate book was a fake because there is no such thing in Thailand.

After several return visits my son was informed that the dragon from hell was off sick, and a couple of other staff very quickly processed the registration transfer with some serious apologies to my son.

You should have insisted on talking to their superior rather than having to come again. There used to be a rule that you have to choose a Thai name when you naturalize, but that was changed years ago. She might have mixed that up. The fault was not with the "dragon" but with her superior for not having trained her properly. She thought that what she said was the law, and it is correct that she had to uphold the law.

In one case I had a government officer call to the ministry who then informed her that she was wrong and I was right. This was not at immigration but at another government agency. The problem is that the government officers are not trained and updated properly.

Perhaps Scorecard's experience is the norm and government officials are in fact trained to accuse loathesome foreigners or, even more disgusting in their xenophobic view, Thais with foreign blood of having false documents. I have posted before about being accused of having a fake Alien Registration Certificate (red book) and tabien baan (blue book) by the head of registration at a Bangkok district office. His arguments were based on the 15 years he said he had worked in district office registration: 1) the red book is only issued to ethnic Chinese foreigners; 2) the blue book is only issued to Thais and Chinese (farangs must have yellow books); 3 the ID prefix 8- is reserved for Thai nationals. The first two arguments didn't bear commenting on but I respectfully pointed out that the ID prefix 8- is in fact reserved for aliens with permanent residence who retain that prefix in the event that they become Thai later on. This talking back calmly to someone who thought he was important and was used to getting away with intimidating working class Thais nearly resulted in a fit of apoplexy but I was unable to accept the dangerous accusation of carrying fake Thai ID documents.

Seriously, yes it is a lack of training and not just in the details. Although many district offices and other government offices are much more service orientated than they used to be there is still much work to be done in training staff to have the right attitude towards the public (including foreigners, stateless persons or anyone else they happen to dislike) and keeping themselves up-to-date on the regulations they are supposed to be enforcing. Sadly there is still little downside for district officers or other civil servants who just make up and enforce their own laws and regulations because they are too lazy to read the copious information available to them and it's much more fun to play Hitler with people they think can't fight back.

I have never had any problems with the Land Transport Dept but I have found it easier to deal with my local office in Sukhumvit Soi 101 (or thereabouts), rather than the head office in Chatuchak. I have found them helpful at Chatuchak but its a monstrous place that is hard to get to and hard to find one's way around. There are very few things that have to be done there apart from applying for a new Thai driving licence (I think) or an nternational driving licence. I have transferred vehicle registrations, got a new number plate, changed address on my Thai licence and got a duplicate licence at my local office.

It is correct that getting a Thai name used to be mandatory for naturalized Thai citizens. Now they are still required to apply to register a Thai name at their district office but the name is no longer used by the MOI when their applications are approved. They are told they can apply to change their name to the one they reserved or another one any time they like or keep their foreign names. However, Scorecard was referring to his son who was born Thai with a foreign surname. In fact there has never been any prohibition against this. Prior to 1971 thousands of people with foreign parents were born Thai as a result of being born in the Kingdom. Although many decided to change their names to Thai names, many did not. I know several Thais who are either look krung or of totally foreign blood in this category who have used foreign names in their Thai ID documents all their lives, including one with an English name and one with a Burmese name. Thais you meet with surnames like Saechan or Saelee are also in effectively this category, although they be a generation or two on. They or their forefathers were born in Thailand to Chinese parents and district officers registered their Chinese surnames, Chan or Lee, with the prefix Sae in front.

[samran]

I renewed my Alien's Book today and was in and out of the police station in 10 minutes. No documents required other than the Alien's Book and no copies requested. They didn't seem to care that my passport had changed. I just signed the form, and paid 800 baht for 5 years.

Well, its an curious piece of bureaucracy from a bygone age that nobody seems to care much about it these days. It used to be an essential document for the police to use in controlling the large Chinese immigrant population who could be stopped and asked to show it at any moment. Try and use it in a bank or such like to prove your identity today, explaining that it is your Thai government issued personal identification document, and they just look at it with a puzzled expression and say, "Passport please".

Agree, the bottom line is that most government employees, including the police don't even know what the Resdence Certificate (actually a small book) is.

On numerous occasions when pulled over by the police I have shown my 'book', watched the policemans face and it's clear they don't know what it is, and on most occasions they have gone into small panic mode: saluted, clapped their shoes and very politely informed me to proceed with lots of whistle blowing and hand signals to get me back into the traffic flow.

Another example - 2 years back my car registration was up for renewal and I decided to transfer the ownership (the blue book) to my adult Thai son's name.

Son took all the expected documents to the land transport office at chatujuck and had the misfortunate to meet the dragon from hell. She insisted that:

1. My son's Thai ID card was false because it's illegal for Thai people to have a farang surname, he also produced his passport, again she said it was fake, and

2. My Resident Certificate book was a fake because there is no such thing in Thailand.

After several return visits my son was informed that the dragon from hell was off sick, and a couple of other staff very quickly processed the registration transfer with some serious apologies to my son.

Geez, lucky I never came across her. Lord knows what she would have made of my Irish surname.

[brianinbangkok]

I renewed my Alien's Book today and was in and out of the police station in 10 minutes. No documents required other than the Alien's Book and no copies requested. They didn't seem to care that my passport had changed. I just signed the form, and paid 800 baht for 5 years.

Well sometimes it can take 3 days to do this 5 year renewal.

I just got it done today after waiting 3 days til the police station chief was back from HQ because he is the only one authorised to sign the alien's ID book.

They also put a new photo of me in the alien's book and wanted a second 2inch photo for the file they keep on me.

So do take a few when you need to do this.

I also paid 800bath fee plus a 400bath fine for being 2 months late.

Signed one document and that was it.

The only time Thai officials want to see this alien's book seems to be when you go to immigration to get a re-entry permit other then this nobody ever asked me for it.

Sent from my A101IT using Thaivisa Connect App

[camerata]

Right. As most members have said, officials and employees would rather NOT see your Alien's Book. I've had hotels refuse to use it, I guess because they have a registration form in English with a space for passport number and one in Thai with a space for the ID Card number.

It's curious that the Alien's Book doesn't contain your Thai ID number. When opening a fixed deposit account with a bank that had preferential rates for residents, I had to use my tabien baan or driving licence.

[tombkk]

Right. As most members have said, officials and employees would rather NOT see your Alien's Book. I've had hotels refuse to use it, I guess because they have a registration form in English with a space for passport number and one in Thai with a space for the ID Card number.

It's curious that the Alien's Book doesn't contain your Thai ID number. When opening a fixed deposit account with a bank that had preferential rates for residents, I had to use my tabien baan or driving licence.

Why do you need to carry the Alien's Book around? I thought it's one of the things you keep in the safe, like the Work Permit or the passport.

I always use my driver's lucence for official ID, for example at hotels.

[brianinbangkok]

The alien's book it has 2 pages inside in English with a list of rules you must follow.

Rule 7: You must always keep this certificate with you, so to be in readiness to produce to administrative or police authority upon request.

Rule 8: you can be fined for not following the above rules

Same goes for being able to show your wp when at work.

I have never been asked this but legaly you do need to be able to show it.

I usually have a copy in the car.

[Theboy]

What about the other book - the smaller blue one - does that need updateing / stamping every 5 years ?

[Tep]

If it is the document I think you mean, this small blue book is 'Duplicate of Certificate of Residence' and is used by Immigration to place your exit visa. It is stamped on exit and entry by border immigration the same as your passport. It is permanent, only expiring if you leave Thailand without an exit visa. It is replaced when full. My replacement last year was a white covered book. I don't know why the colour change, whether it is for all such documents or all replacement documents or just for the first replacement. I always copy this document together with the alien registration book when I have to submit documents for identification.

[brianinbangkok]

Not that I am aware of.

But if you leave the country it needs a endorsement thats done at the same time as you get a re-entry visa put in your passport.

Present both when passing a Thai border as both need to be stamped each time.

Sent from my A101IT using Thaivisa Connect App

[Theboy]

Thank you both