Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[Dork]

A tip for PR holders applying for or renewing work permits. Your alien book needs to be valid for the entire period of the duration of the work permit you are applying for. Otherwise the Labour Ministry can only issue or renew your work permit up until the date your alien book expires. I am applying for another two year renewal of my work permit but my alien book was going to expire in 6 months time. My local police station was happy to renew the alien book for another 5 years starting from the original expiry date for the official fee of 800 baht that hasn't changed for over a decade. Knowing this in advance can save running around at the last minute before the work permit expires. Some police stations also make you come another day for your alien book, saying a Puu Yai has to sign. Mine was done on the spot this time by the NCO himself luckily.

Thanks for the info. It's nice of the Labour department to withdraw the small concessions that were available to PR's and then tack on some additional meaningless, irrelevant requirements. Why not?

[skyaslimit]

I was just browsing through number of expat related websites when I found a topic under " Resident Permit in Thailand" and I found an amazing statement:-

Good to know:

In September of each year, for three consecutive years, you will need to submit proof of your legality in the country to the Immigration Commission regarding your investments or your monthly income. Otherwise, your residence permit in Thailand could be revoked.

Each application is considered individually and transparently by the Thai Immigration Committee. However, the Commission or the Minister of the Interior may reject an application for economic, political or social reasons.

For more information on residence permit in Thailand, please visit the http://Criteria and conditions for foreign national residential permit consideration , but by my understanding its for the investment category only, IS IT?

Hey! when I received my PRC The Thai Immigration told me I don't have to visit them any more even and unless I need an endorsement before leaving the country.

Edited August 15, 2013 by skyaslimit

[Mario2008]

The information is outdated.

It is indeed only for investment but investment is no longer a possible option. Investement used to run through the Board of Investement and you could apply while abroad. But since 10 years or more, the BOI doesn't offer this route to PR anymore.

[Arkady]

I was just browsing through number of expat related websites when I found a topic under " Resident Permit in Thailand" and I found an amazing statement:-

Good to know:

In September of each year, for three consecutive years, you will need to submit proof of your legality in the country to the Immigration Commission regarding your investments or your monthly income. Otherwise, your residence permit in Thailand could be revoked.

Each application is considered individually and transparently by the Thai Immigration Committee. However, the Commission or the Minister of the Interior may reject an application for economic, political or social reasons.

For more information on residence permit in Thailand, please visit the http://Criteria and conditions for foreign national residential permit consideration , but by my understanding its for the investment category only, IS IT?

Hey! when I received my PRC The Thai Immigration told me I don't have to visit them any more even and unless I need an endorsement before leaving the country.

Looks like nonsense to me. So many people post any old rubbish about PR and citizenship on websites and make it look as if it is gospel. The investment category at any rate seems quite pointless because you still need to submit evidence of working with a WP and paying salaries tax for 3 years. You just submit yourself to scrutiny of your investments which might get you rejected. The supporting or being supported by Thai family category has the same problem. Best to apply under the normal business quota and ignore the other categories. As Mario says the BoI used to do an investment category under temporary police orders for limited periods whereby you could apply to the BoI. When I enquired about this in the 90s the BoI told me to apply to Immigration in the normal way because other government departments had refused to cooperate with them, resulting in a 100% rejection rate for applicants who had applied through them. Sad but true.

[Dork]

Regarding the investment category, the advice I got when I applied in 2006 was exactly as Arkady suggests. The officers at the PR section counselled me against applying via that route. Because I had at that time recently made a substantial long term investment which (on paper) would have qualified me to apply under that category I assumed that would be the easiest route, thinking (perhaps cynically) that it’s all about the money. However, they advised that the investment itself would be scrutinised by the immigration committee and again when considered by the panel of ministries. I countered that my investment could withstand scrutiny in that it was genuine, had no nominee issues and was listed in my Work Permit. They asked whether the investment was profitable to which I answered no, not yet. They said that’s a fail then. I tried to argue that very few investments are profitable from the outset but apparently they don’t see it that way – (I should mention here that one of my former staff was the daughter of one of the PR officers and while that wasn’t enough of a connection to warrant special treatment, that officer did have some knowledge of my personal situation) – Their advice to me was apply under the family category because unless the applicant is paying particularly large amounts of tax the humanitarian aspect carries more weight than just meeting the threshold in the business category. In fact they stated that if you’re a genuine applicant under the family category and you meet the other minimum requirements you will be successful. As simple as that.

There are 2 points from my personal experience with PR application that don’t quite gel with conventional wisdom here. I want to mention them just in case it helps a new applicant that is in a similar situation to mine in 2006.

1 – The PR officers told me very clearly that the unofficial minimum tax paid income for an application under the family category was 50K/month, not 80K as I have sometimes read here. 80K might be the bare minimum for an application under business but I suspect even that isn’t enough. Family though, is different.

2 – Spouse’s income. Generally I have read that spouse’s income is not relevant to a PR application. However one of the documents that I was asked to provide sometime after the initial application was accepted was my wife’s personal income tax receipts. Also, at the interview (which my wife had to attend) she was queried in detail by the interviewing officer about her income to the point that she (worryingly) became visibly annoyed. My income wasn’t queried at all. Perhaps there was some curiosity on the part of the officer because my wife indirectly works for the government. Difficult to say but certainly spouse’s income is not irrelevant.

Applying under the family category though will likely put your personal life under the microscope; If you have children you need proof of paternity (DNA) and if you don’t have children you need a Doctors letter saying why not. They will also do some investigation regarding your living arrangements. In my case 3 officers pitched up at my house, interviewed domestic staff, talked to the neighbours and wandered around the property taking photos. Plus of course the obligatory photo of the couple sitting on the marital bed and clothes in the wardrobe.

Sorry, this post has gone off on a tangent a bit but I suppose what I wanted to add to Arkady’s advice is that I agree the investment category seems to be useless, the business category is the most straightforward but that if you’re married and working but not paying a huge amount of tax, the family category might have the greatest chance of success.

[Arkady]

Regarding the investment category, the advice I got when I applied in 2006 was exactly as Arkady suggests. The officers at the PR section counselled me against applying via that route. Because I had at that time recently made a substantial long term investment which (on paper) would have qualified me to apply under that category I assumed that would be the easiest route, thinking (perhaps cynically) that it’s all about the money. However, they advised that the investment itself would be scrutinised by the immigration committee and again when considered by the panel of ministries. I countered that my investment could withstand scrutiny in that it was genuine, had no nominee issues and was listed in my Work Permit. They asked whether the investment was profitable to which I answered no, not yet. They said that’s a fail then. I tried to argue that very few investments are profitable from the outset but apparently they don’t see it that way – (I should mention here that one of my former staff was the daughter of one of the PR officers and while that wasn’t enough of a connection to warrant special treatment, that officer did have some knowledge of my personal situation) – Their advice to me was apply under the family category because unless the applicant is paying particularly large amounts of tax the humanitarian aspect carries more weight than just meeting the threshold in the business category. In fact they stated that if you’re a genuine applicant under the family category and you meet the other minimum requirements you will be successful. As simple as that.

There are 2 points from my personal experience with PR application that don’t quite gel with conventional wisdom here. I want to mention them just in case it helps a new applicant that is in a similar situation to mine in 2006.

1 – The PR officers told me very clearly that the unofficial minimum tax paid income for an application under the family category was 50K/month, not 80K as I have sometimes read here. 80K might be the bare minimum for an application under business but I suspect even that isn’t enough. Family though, is different.

2 – Spouse’s income. Generally I have read that spouse’s income is not relevant to a PR application. However one of the documents that I was asked to provide sometime after the initial application was accepted was my wife’s personal income tax receipts. Also, at the interview (which my wife had to attend) she was queried in detail by the interviewing officer about her income to the point that she (worryingly) became visibly annoyed. My income wasn’t queried at all. Perhaps there was some curiosity on the part of the officer because my wife indirectly works for the government. Difficult to say but certainly spouse’s income is not irrelevant.

Applying under the family category though will likely put your personal life under the microscope; If you have children you need proof of paternity (DNA) and if you don’t have children you need a Doctors letter saying why not. They will also do some investigation regarding your living arrangements. In my case 3 officers pitched up at my house, interviewed domestic staff, talked to the neighbours and wandered around the property taking photos. Plus of course the obligatory photo of the couple sitting on the marital bed and clothes in the wardrobe.

Sorry, this post has gone off on a tangent a bit but I suppose what I wanted to add to Arkady’s advice is that I agree the investment category seems to be useless, the business category is the most straightforward but that if you’re married and working but not paying a huge amount of tax, the family category might have the greatest chance of success.

This is good stuff. I think there are some in this thread who only made the minimum income under the family quota by adding the wife's income. It does seem that the wife's income matters a lot.

It is quite clear that applying under the business quota is the safest way to go, if you are comfortably over the minimum financial requirements. You want to avoid all unnecessary scrutiny which could turn up something you didn't anticipate. When I applied for PR I was told by a maj gen at Immigration that their internal guidelines obliged them to reject all applicants working for Bt 2 million companies and they were not allowed to give them the reason for the rejection because it was not from the Immigration Act or a National Police Order and could therefore have been challenged. Doubtless today they have similar guidelines to reject applicants who hope to scrape by and mitigates in favour of Dork's approach for those who are not much over the minimum requirements.

[skyaslimit]

Regarding the investment category, the advice I got when I applied in 2006 was exactly as Arkady suggests. The officers at the PR section counselled me against applying via that route. Because I had at that time recently made a substantial long term investment which (on paper) would have qualified me to apply under that category I assumed that would be the easiest route, thinking (perhaps cynically) that it’s all about the money. However, they advised that the investment itself would be scrutinised by the immigration committee and again when considered by the panel of ministries. I countered that my investment could withstand scrutiny in that it was genuine, had no nominee issues and was listed in my Work Permit. They asked whether the investment was profitable to which I answered no, not yet. They said that’s a fail then. I tried to argue that very few investments are profitable from the outset but apparently they don’t see it that way – (I should mention here that one of my former staff was the daughter of one of the PR officers and while that wasn’t enough of a connection to warrant special treatment, that officer did have some knowledge of my personal situation) – Their advice to me was apply under the family category because unless the applicant is paying particularly large amounts of tax the humanitarian aspect carries more weight than just meeting the threshold in the business category. In fact they stated that if you’re a genuine applicant under the family category and you meet the other minimum requirements you will be successful. As simple as that.

 

There are 2 points from my personal experience with PR application that don’t quite gel with conventional wisdom here. I want to mention them just in case it helps a new applicant that is in a similar situation to mine in 2006.

 

1 – The PR officers told me very clearly that the unofficial minimum tax paid income for an application under the family category was 50K/month, not 80K as I have sometimes read here. 80K might be the bare minimum for an application under business but I suspect even that isn’t enough. Family though, is different.

 

2 – Spouse’s income. Generally I have read that spouse’s income is not relevant to a PR application. However one of the documents that I was asked to provide sometime after the initial application was accepted was my wife’s personal income tax receipts. Also, at the interview (which my wife had to attend) she was queried in detail by the interviewing officer about her income to the point that she (worryingly) became visibly annoyed. My income wasn’t queried at all. Perhaps there was some curiosity on the part of the officer because my wife indirectly works for the government. Difficult to say but certainly spouse’s income is not irrelevant.

 

Applying under the family category though will likely put your personal life under the microscope; If you have children you need proof of paternity (DNA) and if you don’t have children you need a Doctors letter saying why not. They will also do some investigation regarding your living arrangements. In my case 3 officers pitched up at my house, interviewed domestic staff, talked to the neighbours and wandered around the property taking photos. Plus of course the obligatory photo of the couple sitting on the marital bed and clothes in the wardrobe.

 

Sorry, this post has gone off on a tangent a bit but I suppose what I wanted to add to Arkady’s advice is that I agree the investment category seems to be useless, the business category is the most straightforward but that if you’re married and working but not paying a huge amount of tax, the family category might have the greatest chance of success.

 

 

This is good stuff.  I think there are some in this thread who only made the minimum income under the family quota by adding the wife's income.  It does seem that the wife's income matters a lot. 

 

It is quite clear that applying under the business quota is the safest way to go, if you are comfortably over the minimum financial requirements.  You want to avoid all unnecessary scrutiny which could turn up something you didn't anticipate. When I applied for PR I was told by a maj gen at Immigration that their internal guidelines obliged them to reject all applicants working for Bt 2 million companies and they were not allowed to give them the reason for the rejection because it was not from the Immigration Act or a National Police Order and could therefore have been challenged.  Doubtless today they have similar guidelines to reject applicants who hope to scrape by and mitigates in favour of Dork's approach for those who are not much over the minimum requirements.

 

This is so true, when I applied in 2006, the immigration officer asked me straight forwardly if I was employed by a 2 million bhat company, which I wasn't.

And its also true that I did provided the proof of paternity by DNA testing at police hospital.

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[stbkk]

Just to confirm the above. I applied in 2006 under the business category but still had to provide DNA evidence I was the father of my son.

One of my friends applied last year (2012) and had to do the same (business category, had to have DNA test to prove parenthood).

Edited August 19, 2013 by stbkk

[ubonjoe]

The DNA test would be needed too get the extra points for having a Thai child.

Even applying under business I think you get points for being married to a Thai.

[Arkady]

The DNA test would be needed too get the extra points for having a Thai child.

Even applying under business I think you get points for being married to a Thai.

It doesn't seem to make much sense that they should ask for scientific evidence of your relationship with your child, if you didn't apply under the family category, but logic is not one of the more pronounced traits over at Immigration. Just investigate everything to the nth degree and then let them wait for years for an unpredictable movement of seismic plates in the Interior Ministry.

Apart from the cost, I have yet to hear that having a Thai wife or child, or not having them, ever made any difference to an application for PR, all other things being equal. Those with and without Thai families seem to wait just as long and have the same success rates. I think it is only in the marginal cases as described by Dork that it makes a difference. If anything makes a difference, it is much more likely to be financial means or lack of them.

[sas_cars]

Since the economy is in decline, don't know if it'll compel the IM to sign the pending PR applications of 2009-2012 to get some quick easy money into treasury.

[NewlyMintedThai]

Since the economy is in decline, don't know if it'll compel the IM to sign the pending PR applications of 2009-2012 to get some quick easy money into treasury.

You're joking, right?

[THAIJAMES]

Since the economy is in decline, don't know if it'll compel the IM to sign the pending PR applications of 2009-2012 to get some quick easy money into treasury.

Don't forget that some of us from 2007 are still waiting approval!

[sas_cars]

Since the economy is in decline, don't know if it'll compel the IM to sign the pending PR applications of 2009-2012 to get some quick easy money into treasury.

Don't forget that some of us from 2007 are still waiting approval!

Really? Heard that all batches from 2006-2008 with completed paperwork were already cleared by previous IM. Your paperwork must have been incomplete I guess?

[THAIJAMES]

Since the economy is in decline, don't know if it'll compel the IM to sign the pending PR applications of 2009-2012 to get some quick easy money into treasury.

Don't forget that some of us from 2007 are still waiting approval!

Really? Heard that all batches from 2006-2008 with completed paperwork were already cleared by previous IM. Your paperwork must have been incomplete I guess?

Not incomplete, they just never stopped asking for more and more information.

I applied under the special category (being a special service to Thailand). The moral of the story is just stick to a regular business application, because no matter even if you qualify for the other categories, they will want to not only get information in regards to your category (special, family, investment) but they will also want to make sure that you meet the business requirement. Which complicates things.

If I was to do this over again, I would just apply under the business category.

[stbkk]

You have my sympathy.

It must have been terribly frustrating to see those approvals going through without yours.

I hope something starts the approvals rolling again for you (and the others still waiting, of course) soon.

[sas_cars]

You have my sympathy.

It must have been terribly frustrating to see those approvals going through without yours.

I hope something starts the approvals rolling again for you (and the others still waiting, of course) soon.

I second that. I think the blame lies with immigration department which didn't send his file to interior ministry in time for the signing of the previous batch. Now he is in the same boat as applicants from 2009 till now batch, nobody knows how many more years wait left

[THAIJAMES]

Thank you for the sympathy, does seem to be much too long to get permanent residence, considering I have already been in Thailand for 28 years.

On the other hand, all I have to do is show up at immigration for a few minutes every six months to get an extension.

I was hopping to apply for citizenship, however they still require you to wait 5 years after getting permanent residence if you are single. So i will be an old man before that process is finished.

You have my sympathy.

It must have been terribly frustrating to see those approvals going through without yours.

I hope something starts the approvals rolling again for you (and the others still waiting, of course) soon.

I second that. I think the blame lies with immigration department which didn't send his file to interior ministry in time for the signing of the previous batch. Now he is in the same boat as applicants from 2009 till now batch, nobody knows how many more years wait left

[stbkk]

Yes, I've also thought a bit about citizenship, which would be a bit easier for me as I am married to a Thai.

However, I'm not prepared to sign a declaration intending to renounce my existing (British) citizenship if approved. I know several pepole have mentioned its not a big deal and has no legal standing, but I think I'll just wait for a few years and see.

Good luck with your PR, anyway, and I hope its not much longer for you.

[Arkady]

Yes, I've also thought a bit about citizenship, which would be a bit easier for me as I am married to a Thai.

However, I'm not prepared to sign a declaration intending to renounce my existing (British) citizenship if approved. I know several pepole have mentioned its not a big deal and has no legal standing, but I think I'll just wait for a few years and see.

Good luck with your PR, anyway, and I hope its not much longer for you.

The longer you wait the more difficult the process is likely to be.

[PH59]

Just a short update for what it is worth. Was at CW today to do another 6 month extension The ever friendly and effecient staff in PR section have no idea as to progress of any apps sitting at IM. So as has been for many years, we all continue to wait.

[stbkk]

Yes, I've also thought a bit about citizenship, which would be a bit easier for me as I am married to a Thai.

However, I'm not prepared to sign a declaration intending to renounce my existing (British) citizenship if approved. I know several pepole have mentioned its not a big deal and has no legal standing, but I think I'll just wait for a few years and see.

Good luck with your PR, anyway, and I hope its not much longer for you.

The longer you wait the more difficult the process is likely to be.

As far as I'm concerned having to renounce my UK citizenship is a show-stopper anyway, no matter how easy or difficult the process is.

[Mario2008]

Currently there is no requirement to actually renounce your nationality. You must only intend to do so, but intentions can change.

In the future actual renounciation might very well be required.

[sas_cars]

Currently there is no requirement to actually renounce your nationality. You must only intend to do so, but intentions can change.

In the future actual renounciation might very well be required.

Even if it's required, I don't think it'll reduce the number of applicants much, since majority of thai citizenship seekers are people from South Asia and China, who are willing to renounce their citizenships anyways. It'll only reduce the applicants from developed countries which are a minority anyways. How many farang sounding names you read on citizenship gazette?

[skyaslimit]

Any one else tried and received pink ID card ?

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[tamvine]

I tried hard. The top person in the local office explained me that he understand by law I should have it, but it is intended for Burmese, Cambodians and Laotians only. As per him there are people with PR living in Thailand for past 20-30 years and they don't posses it. I would have insisted and got it but I gave him face and save him trouble (He would have to get cards from somewhere) . As for convenience I keep a photocopy of page (having my personal details) in PR book. So far I have not missed pink i.d. card. However this way officers became known to me and would be easy to deal with for any help needed in future.

[Dork]

I tried hard. The top person in the local office explained me that he understand by law I should have it, but it is intended for Burmese, Cambodians and Laotians only. As per him there are people with PR living in Thailand for past 20-30 years and they don't posses it. I would have insisted and got it but I gave him face and save him trouble (He would have to get cards from somewhere) . As for convenience I keep a photocopy of page (having my personal details) in PR book. So far I have not missed pink i.d. card. However this way officers became known to me and would be easy to deal with for any help needed in future.

Honestly I can't understand why you are so generous with this guy. He won't even help you by doing his job as a government employee as he is required to do by law. So what use will he ever be in the future? I know it isn't easy as a foreigner to throw your weight around in a government office so you may need the assistance of a Thai that is knowledgeable and confident enough to stand up to him. You had to jump through a lot of hoops, wait far too long and pay a considerable amount of money to get PR which in the end gives you precious few entitlements. So when one of those entitlements (in fact requirements) is denied I think you should scream blue murder.

I got the same reaction from my local office but my wife was with me and when the boss tried to brush it off she showed all the relevant documents that prove they are required to issue this card and said something to the effect of "it's the law so please do it. If there is a problem further up the chain of command please tell me where and I will contact them. I will not give up". It took some time but eventually the call came saying come and get your card.

I think they're just lazy and don't care. Only when you make it harder for them not to do something than to do it will you see action.

On a more positive note the card is actually very useful. Much more than I originally thought it would be.

[sas_cars]

I tried hard. The top person in the local office explained me that he understand by law I should have it, but it is intended for Burmese, Cambodians and Laotians only. As per him there are people with PR living in Thailand for past 20-30 years and they don't posses it. I would have insisted and got it but I gave him face and save him trouble (He would have to get cards from somewhere) . As for convenience I keep a photocopy of page (having my personal details) in PR book. So far I have not missed pink i.d. card. However this way officers became known to me and would be easy to deal with for any help needed in future.

Honestly I can't understand why you are so generous with this guy. He won't even help you by doing his job as a government employee as he is required to do by law. So what use will he ever be in the future? I know it isn't easy as a foreigner to throw your weight around in a government office so you may need the assistance of a Thai that is knowledgeable and confident enough to stand up to him. You had to jump through a lot of hoops, wait far too long and pay a considerable amount of money to get PR which in the end gives you precious few entitlements. So when one of those entitlements (in fact requirements) is denied I think you should scream blue murder.

I got the same reaction from my local office but my wife was with me and when the boss tried to brush it off she showed all the relevant documents that prove they are required to issue this card and said something to the effect of "it's the law so please do it. If there is a problem further up the chain of command please tell me where and I will contact them. I will not give up". It took some time but eventually the call came saying come and get your card.

I think they're just lazy and don't care. Only when you make it harder for them not to do something than to do it will you see action.

On a more positive note the card is actually very useful. Much more than I originally thought it would be.

Can you elaborate how you found the card useful which exceeded your expectations? In my opinion, I don't really see any advantage of having it comparing a normal driving license

[Dork]

Can you elaborate how you found the card useful which exceeded your expectations? In my opinion, I don't really see any advantage of having it comparing a normal driving license

That the card can be used as an acceptable form of ID in Thailand isn’t surprising. For day to day things that require ID like checking into a hotel, boarding a domestic flight or simple bank transactions I agree, a driving licence will be fine. But for any kind of government business or banking procedures such as opening a new account, for a foreigner that means a combination of passport, work permit, proof of residence etc.

But because as a PR you already have your name listed in a blue Tabien Ban (TR14), once you have an ID card as well you now have the same type of identification as a Thai citizen and in most situations that require proper ID, get treated the same as one. It has been quite surprising to me that though I would imagine not many clerks etc. would have seen a PR’s ID card before they intuitively know how to deal with it. When they are entering data into e.g. a bank computer terminal, there is a field for ID card and for Tabien Ban and once those are filled they’re done, rather than fumbling through a Passport, Residence Certificate, Alien Certificate and Work Permit and making copious copies of them all but not really knowing how to deal with them.

I have gradually been changing my registered ID over from Passport/WP to ID card/Tabien Ban for bank accounts, credit cards and various company documents. So far I have been able to;

Register a vehicle in my name at the Dept of Land Transportation with just copies of ID & Tabien Ban, not the originals since I didn’t go myself. My office messenger did that without any queries. Any foreigner that has done this before knows what a pain the DLT can be.

Open a new bank account. Used only the ID card and a copy of Tabien Ban.

Transfer land at the Land Department as a company director. Previously this has been quite a time consuming process requiring copies of everything with the officer constantly querying the boss as to what I was qualified to sign. This time no issues at all and most surprisingly they didn’t ask for my Work Permit. Tabien Ban & ID card was the only ID presented.

Make a substantial cash withdrawal from a branch that I’ve never been to before. The only ID I had was the pink ID card.

I’m not quite sure why so many people on this forum are so sceptical about the ID card for Permanent Residents. For me, it really has made my life easier. In fact though I’ve only had PR since last October, it’s the biggest tangible benefit of PR that I have noticed. I can’t see why anyone wouldn’t want it.

[chrisbinbkk99]

Thats the point there really isn't any major benefits. If you can understand thai then you know full well u don't get out any id if your stopped by the cops. In the parks and what have you just speaking the local lang. Is enough. ...

Apart from that mmm I got one in my pocket for what exactly?

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