Last Hiroshima bomb crewman dies

[Wat dee]

Strange that something like that is not seen as a war crime. It did end the war of course.

 

I am sure they did see the bombing of London as a war crime and not the fire bombing of Dresden.

 

In war there is no good side.. the Brits, Germans Russians French Americans all executed POW's  But when I was young in war movies it was always the Germans doing it until I saw some good documentaries that showed both sides did it.

Way Japanese American were treated during the war was a crime. Bombs were not necessary, Japanese offered to surrender(Emperor given immunity)before bombings. Just tests with sub-humans.

[FM505]

 

Strange that something like that is not seen as a war crime. It did end the war of course.

 

I am sure they did see the bombing of London as a war crime and not the fire bombing of Dresden.

 

In war there is no good side.. the Brits, Germans Russians French Americans all executed POW's  But when I was young in war movies it was always the Germans doing it until I saw some good documentaries that showed both sides did it.

 

At the Nurnberg Trials the mass bombing of cities was not, as far as I know, used as a war crime against the Germans or the Japanese. To accuse them of this would have been extreme hypocrisy seeing as what the British and Americans did to many German and Japanese cities was way worse.

 

 

You've learned nothing about the nature of life on earth...

[Ulysses G.]

Strange that something like that is not seen as a war crime. It did end the war of course.
 
I am sure they did see the bombing of London as a war crime and not the fire bombing of Dresden.
 
In war there is no good side.. the Brits, Germans Russians French Americans all executed POW's  But when I was young in war movies it was always the Germans doing it until I saw some good documentaries that showed both sides did it.

Japanese offered to surrender

Not really. They refused unless the war criminal emperor was allowed to stay in power. The allies insisted that he be under their control and with good reason.

[Wat dee]

 

 

 

Strange that something like that is not seen as a war crime. It did end the war of course.

 

I am sure they did see the bombing of London as a war crime and not the fire bombing of Dresden.

 

In war there is no good side.. the Brits, Germans Russians French Americans all executed POW's  But when I was young in war movies it was always the Germans doing it until I saw some good documentaries that showed both sides did it.

 

Strange that you ignored the execution of POW's by the Japanese who killed more than the rest combined!
 

 

 

What about the sacking of Nanking ,in China ,and the taking of Manilla ,and the genocide of Chinese by the Japanese ..Check it on youtube    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

http://www.tribo.org/nanking/

Six million Chinese massacred at the hands of the Japanese plus wholesale rape .I don't know how many Philipinos ..Not pretty .

 

 

Actually ignored them by mistake... they were the same if not worse. Nanking was bad. 

 

What is hypocritical of all the powers of the day is that many of the Drs experimenting on humans did not get procecuted as long as they worked with the allies later on to help their own research ahead.

 

Russians hanged  criminals, others offered jobs.

[chuckd]

 

II thank the USA for helping us get rid of the Germans and Japanese 

 

Not to take anything away from the Americans that died in Europe, BUT, three-quarters of all German losses of men and equipment were on the eastern front.

The Russians could have won the war in Europe on their own, but, it is estimated that it would have taken another two years.

 

Over 20 million Russians died during the war and not enough credit is given to them by the public (historians are well aware of their contribution).

 

 

The Russian winter and Hitler's obstinance and incompetence as a military tactician lost the Russian front.

 

Stalingrad was the stake through the heart of the German army in the Soviet Union.

[Rinrada]

VanKirk, also known as "Dutch," was the navigator of the Enola Gay.

 

The B-29 Superfortress aircraft dropped "Little Boy" — the world's first atomic bomb — over the Japanese city of Hiroshima on Aug. 6, 1945.

 

The bomb killed 140,000 in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki three days later. Van Kirk was 24 years old at the time.

 

In a 2005 interview with The Associated Press,

 

VanKirk said his World War II experience showed that wars and atomic bombs don't settle anything, and he'd like to see the weapons abolished

 

RIP Dutch

[chuckd]

From the following link.  It would seem the actions in dropping the bombs was totally justified from a human standpoint.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Operation Downfall

 

Operation Downfall was the name given to the planned invasion of Japan. Operation Downfall itself was divided into two parts - Operation Olympic and Operation Coronet. By mid-1945, it was apparent that the collapse of Japan was near and the Allies had to plan for the invasion of the Japanese mainland - something that they knew would be very costly in terms of lives lost.

 

<snip>

 

General Marshall, in conference with President Truman, estimated 31,000 in 30 days after landing in Kyushu. Admiral Leahy estimated that the invasion would cost 268,000 casualties. Personnel at the Navy Department estimated that the total losses to America would be between 1.7 and 4 million with 400,000 to 800,000 deaths. The same department estimated that there would be up to 10 million Japanese casualties. The ‘Los Angeles Times’ estimated that America would suffer up to 1 million casualties.

 

Regardless of which figures were used, it was an accepted fact that America would lose a very large number of men. This was one of the reasons why President Truman authorised the use of the atomic bomb in an effort to get Japan to surrender. On August 6th, ‘Little Boy’ was dropped on Hiroshima and on August 9th, ‘Fat Man’ was dropped on Nagasaki. On September 2nd, Japan surrendered and America and her allies were spared the task of invading Japan with the projected massive casualties this would entail."

 

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/operation_downfall.htm

 

 

[SteveB2]

 

Strange that something like that is not seen as a war crime. It did end the war of course.

 

I am sure they did see the bombing of London as a war crime and not the fire bombing of Dresden.

 

In war there is no good side.. the Brits, Germans Russians French Americans all executed POW's  But when I was young in war movies it was always the Germans doing it until I saw some good documentaries that showed both sides did it.

 

Strange that you ignored the execution of POW's by the Japanese who killed more than the rest combined!

 

///

 

We lost a lot of our POW's in the Far East, they endured a horrendous existance under unusualy Japanese brutality. However, in pure terms of the numbers of allied POW deaths, things are not that straight forward – The Japanese were in no way entirely to blame,

 

Read      'Death on the Hellships' by Gregory F. Michino.   ISBN 1-55750-482-2

 

"Of the approximately 21,000 allied POW deaths at sea, approx 19,000 were caused by (Allied) 'friendly fire' from either Allied submarines or planes"  directed at the ship in full knowledge of the ships POW cargo by Allied intelligence following the cracking of the Japanese 'Ultra Code" . Quite simply, we knew where all Japanese ships were heading and what they were carrying. These were the same POWs who had survived the death camps, the Burma-Thailand railway building, bridge over the river Kwai, etc

 

Thus shockingly, we, the allies, killed tens of thousands of our own POW's ourselves. We air bombed the ground projects our POW's were working on. We torpedoed the Hellships they were being transported on. At most times in full knowledged that POW's were present at the time of the attack. The war was at such a desperate stage that Japan's Far East logistical supply chain had to destroyed at whatever cost, including the lives of our own POWs. The submarine commander alone took the secret of knowlingly destroying a vessel carrying allied POWs with him to the grave.

 

 ‘The Forgotten Highlander’ by Alistair Urquhart    ISBN 9780349122571  is also a harrowing read describing first-hand the true goings on in the Asia Pacific war theater from the POW’s perspective.

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2014 by SteveB2

[Anon999]

Wars are horrendous, regardless of the reason for them. However, the worst atrocities are always those carried out during religious conflicts as there is no justification for them in the first instance.

[jij]

There's a very good book by Bob Greene called "Duty: A Father, His Son and the Man Who Won the War ( http://www.amazon.com/Duty-Father-His-Son-Man/dp/0380814110 ) about Paul Tibbets who flew the Enola Gay (named after his mother) and put together it's crew. He visited Hiroshima many years later and was shocked how many women came up to him in tears thanking him for what he did. they were sure that their husbands and many many more would have been killed had 'the bomb' not been used.

 

I've heard it said, "was is not wrong, not fighting evil is wrong".

Edited July 30, 2014 by jij

[slipperylobster]

I was stationed for 5 years just 30 minutes from Hiroshima. Very friendly area. Peace park is now beautiful, and people do remember, but still smiled during my frequent walks there.  Very sad day (however urgent the need) it was. I read many of the letters from the victims, seen rare video footage of the days following the blast, and saw many personal photographs that were taken a day or two after. To stand at ground zero (actually it was a burst just above the dome in the park) was quite humbling.

 

The millions of lives of those who would have been killed in a prolonged war (on both sides) was a determining factor. Not justice, just a necessary evil.  It did change the course of history. (Along with Nagasaki)

[jij]

Wars are horrendous, regardless of the reason for them. However, the worst atrocities are always those carried out during religious conflicts as there is no justification for them in the first instance.

 

Far far more people have been killed in the last 100 years due to secularism (non religious), but that may not be so in the next hundred, but do mostly if not all to radical islamists.

[KarenBravo]

 

Wars are horrendous, regardless of the reason for them. However, the worst atrocities are always those carried out during religious conflicts as there is no justification for them in the first instance.

 

Far far more people have been killed in the last 100 years due to secularism (non religious), but that may not be so in the next hundred, but do mostly if not all to radical islamists.

 

 

These wars were not due to secularism. Secularism was just incidental.

All wars are about territory.

[jij]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

 

 

 

Wars are horrendous, regardless of the reason for them. However, the worst atrocities are always those carried out during religious conflicts as there is no justification for them in the first instance.

 

Far far more people have been killed in the last 100 years due to secularism (non religious), but that may not be so in the next hundred, but do mostly if not all to radical islamists.

 

 

These wars were not due to secularism. Secularism was just incidental.

All wars are about territory.

 

yes it was their ideology or as you say incidental. just wanting to point out that religion is not the cause of so much killing in the past 100 years. territory and ideology, yes? are the islamists after territory so much as demanding the world bend to their beliefs?

 

- jf

 

[johnh869]

War is hideous....period!  USAF 1968-1972  It is only used to obtain money and power! 

[Jingthing]

I've read good arguments that nuking Japan was justified at the time and also not justified. As far as instantly ending the war and ultimately saving more lives than taken. I'm not fully sure on this, probably they shouldn't have been used,  but it should be looked at in the historical context. The weapons had never been used before and perhaps humanity needed to see just how bad they really were by using them once. They haven't been used since, not that they can't be used again, but it seems inevitable to me they would have been used a first time. 

[belg]

war criminals, also those bomberfighters that burnt alive / killed thousands / hundred of thousands of civilians in germany, japan, etc...

 

in the name of who and what ?

 

what did the US have to do in the pacific in the first place ?

 

germany could not invade poland, while USSR did the same and got off scott free ...

 

 

france & GB, declared war on germany for invading one country, while they invaded many countries and called them colonies .... hypocrit, is it not ?

 

 

all those poor & stupid people, going to kill other people they had no beef with, all to protect the belongings of some super rich socalled elite ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MrY]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

 

 

 

I am sure they did see the bombing of London as a war crime and not the fire bombing of Dresden.

It is easy to forget that is how war used to be, until very recently. It was country against country and that included civilians. It was not just army against army.
During WW2, all nations used bombing of cities as a method of interfering with war production and demoralizing the enemy. Japan did it in China, Germany did it with the London Blitz, Italy did it in Ethiopia, and the allies did it with the bombing of Berlin, Dresden and Hamburg, as well as Tokyo and the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
These strategic bombing campaigns were predicated on the concept of Total War. The civilian population under the control of the enemy was seen as a resource. Therefore, the civilian populace was considered a legitimate target of attack.

 

I agree that much has been changed since then but Hiroshima and Nagasaki are of a different scale and so bad it has never been seen before. I am pretty sure that most agree it was overkill especially the one on Nagasaki. It was just a show of power towards the Russians. 

 

I thank the USA for helping us get rid of the Germans and Japanese but if something was a war crime those things were. But I am also not blind for the argument that Japan would have gone on fighting. But I really see these things.. London Dresden Hiroshima Nagasaki as war crimes. That they all did it does not make it any less bad.

 

The atomic bombings were not a show put on for the Russians, it was to save a lot of American lives (and might have even saved Japanese lives unintentionally). A full scale invasion of Japan would have been very costly in regards to American / human life. The Japanese put up a good fight to the death as should be noted by looking at the fighting in the Pacific between the US and Japan. The military leadership and emperor were informed of the weapon prior to the first bombing and then still did not surrender so the second bomb was dropped. Firebombing Tokyo never seems to be mentioned even though it killed just as many people. The Atom bomb is a terrible thing but if you had a family member fighting in the military at the time, I'm sure you were damn grateful for it.

 

My thoughts exactly. The high command already know from the experience with the Germans how much the resistance stiffened once the Allied entered the 'Fatherland'. The Japanese surely would have put up a fanatical defense on their own soil. Of course the U.S. also got to demonstrate their mighty new weapon to the world.

[watcharacters]

I would have bombed cities during WW2 and not lost a lot of sleep about it. Things have changed for the better in some regards. 

.

 

 

 

 

I'm curious as to how you think or feel things have changed for the better?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lancelot]

robblok, on 30 Jul 2014 - 09:00, said:

Strange that something like that is not seen as a war crime. It did end the war of course.

I am sure they did see the bombing of London as a war crime and not the fire bombing of Dresden.

In war there is no good side.. the Brits, Germans Russians French Americans all executed POW's But when I was young in war movies it was always the Germans doing it until I saw some good documentaries that showed both sides did it.

To invade Imperial Japan, the US military estimated 1 million US casualties; certainly the Japanese casualties would have been even higher. But of course lets not let yet another opportunity for US bashing left unused...

"War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over." - William Tecumseh Sherman

 

[puukao]

robblok, on 30 Jul 2014 - 09:00, said:

Strange that something like that is not seen as a war crime. It did end the war of course.

I am sure they did see the bombing of London as a war crime and not the fire bombing of Dresden.

In war there is no good side.. the Brits, Germans Russians French Americans all executed POW's But when I was young in war movies it was always the Germans doing it until I saw some good documentaries that showed both sides did it.

To invade Imperial Japan, the US military estimated 1 million US casualties; certainly the Japanese casualties would have been even higher. But of course lets not let yet another opportunity for US bashing left unused...

"War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over." - William Tecumseh Sherman

 

 

I'm not trying to be contentious, but I think we found out later the US military really didn't believe we would lose 1 million men.  I do believe there was some marketing and campaigning to use the bomb and show force.  Back then, of course I would believe 1 million; however, now I understand how numbers are made up to convince the public.   From notes Operation Downfall:  

 

Invasion Scenarios                                                      Killed          Wounded            Missing                  Total

 

Southern Kyushu followed by Tokyo Plain                     40,000        150,000            3,500                    193,500

Southern Kyushu - Northern Kyushu Japan Surrenders)  25,000      105,000          2,500                    132,500 Southern Kyushu - Northern Kyushu - Tokyo Plain           46,000       170,000         4,000                     220,000

 

......the initial casualty estimates forecast American casualties at just over 100,000, only twice those suffered on Okinawa. Intelligence had indicated that the Japanese were preparing to use similar tactics as those used on Okinawa including suicide attacks and guerrilla warfare with the number of US troops that were to be involved in Operation Olympic as about 350,000 - initially anyway - about three times that involved in Operation Iceberg.

 

Note:  yes, I did read the wikipedia Operation Downfall, and I guess we will just have to choose which source to believe.  I just think there was Political Pressure for these experts to raise casualty figures. I would.....keeps your job, has the President happy to show force, shocks the world, etc.....and we will never know.   anyhow, just food for thought.    

Edited July 30, 2014 by puukao

[HughJass]

Remember what started this nuclear war:
 
The attack on Pearl Harbor^{[nb 4]} was a surprise military strike conducted by the Imperial Japanese Navy against the United States naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, on the morning of December 7, 1941 (December 8 in Japan). The attack led to the United States' entry into World War II.
The attack was intended as a preventive action in order to keep the U.S. Pacific Fleet from interfering with military actions the Empire of Japan was planning in Southeast Asia against overseas territories of the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, and the United States. There were simultaneous Japanese attacks on the U.S.-held Philippinesand on the British Empire in Malaya, Singapore, and Hong Kong.
From the standpoint of the defenders, the attack commenced at 7:48 a.m. Hawaiian Time.^%5B13%5D The base was attacked by 353^%5B14%5D Japanese fighters, bombers and torpedo planes in two waves, launched from six aircraft carriers.^%5B14%5D All eight U.S. Navy battleships were damaged, with four being sunk. All but one (Arizona) were later raised, and six of the eight battleships were returned to service and went on to fight in the war. The Japanese also sank or damaged three cruisers, three destroyers, an anti-aircraft training ship,^{[nb 5]} and one minelayer. 188 U.S. aircraft were destroyed; 2,403 Americans were killed^%5B16%5D and 1,178 others were wounded. Important base installations such as the power station, shipyard, maintenance, and fuel and torpedo storage facilities, as well as the submarine piers and headquarters building (also home of the intelligence section) were not attacked. Japanese losses were light: 29 aircraft and five midget submarines lost, and 65 servicemen killed or wounded.One Japanese sailor was captured.
The attack came as a profound shock to the American people and led directly to the American entry into World War II in both the Pacific and European theaters. The following day (December 8), the United States declared waron Japan. Domestic support for non-interventionism, which had been strong,^%5B17%5D disappeared. Clandestine support of Britain (e.g., the Neutrality Patrol) was replaced by active alliance. Subsequent operations by the U.S. prompted Germany and Italy to declare war on the U.S. on December 11, which was reciprocated by the U.S. the same day.

the USA knew that Japan were going to attack PH and let it happen so that FDR could lead the people of the USA into WW2

http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/4740-pearl-harbor-hawaii-was-surprised-fdr-was-not

[HughJass]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfEBupAeo4

[Baerboxer]

Strange that something like that is not seen as a war crime. It did end the war of course.

 

I am sure they did see the bombing of London as a war crime and not the fire bombing of Dresden.

 

In war there is no good side.. the Brits, Germans Russians French Americans all executed POW's  But when I was young in war movies it was always the Germans doing it until I saw some good documentaries that showed both sides did it.

 

Unbelievable.

 

The Germans instigated unrestricted submarine warfare and the indiscriminate bombing of civilians in WW1. Something they expanded on in WW2. The murdered POW's from the early stages of WW2 (British soldiers in Norway for instance), throughout the war right up until the end. They targeted civilians quite deliberately, ignored the Geneva Convention and carried out unspeakable horrors in the camps, murdering millions. The allies never came anywhere close.

 

The Japanese murdered, tortured, raped and robbed at will starting before WW2 in China. Have a trip  to the war graves at Kanchaaburi for  some history. POWs were slave labor abused at will. The allies came nowhere close.

 

The Japanese and German regimes in WW2 got no more than they deserved. Unfortunately they took their peoples with them. But to suggest that the allies carried out anything like the inhuman acts of these 2 countries is historical nonsense.

[Baerboxer]

war criminals, also those bomberfighters that burnt alive / killed thousands / hundred of thousands of civilians in germany, japan, etc...

 

in the name of who and what ?

 

what did the US have to do in the pacific in the first place ?

 

germany could not invade poland, while USSR did the same and got off scott free ...

 

 

france & GB, declared war on germany for invading one country, while they invaded many countries and called them colonies .... hypocrit, is it not ?

 

 

all those poor & stupid people, going to kill other people they had no beef with, all to protect the belongings of some super rich socalled elite ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well this is new. An "historian" who believes attacking the 2 main aggressors of WW2 should not have been attacked. No sir - let them  invade, rob, rape, kill. do what they want.

 

Germany had annexed Austria, the Sudetenland, Czechoslowakia and got away with it Hitler gambled that UK and France wouldn't stand by the Poles. He was wrong.

Japan had committed massive atrocities in China prior to  WW2 - even German Nazi's there were horrified. They continued to wreck their havoc wherever they went.

 

Neither regime respected human rights, international conventions, democracy, justice and treaties of any kind. When dealing with a rabid bully force is often necessary.

 

 

Or would you  prefer a Western Europe under German Nazi rule?

[OZEMADE]

The war to end all wars was the 1st world war, then the war to end all wars was the 2nd world war. since then we have had a multitude of wars and we are still fighting all over the world. I don't know for sure, but at a rough guess I would say that 1/4 or more of the world is at war now in some form or another.

The Christians will eventually rise up as they have in the past wars and sort it once again.

[StasD]

looks like devil took care of him

[Scott]

Conspiracy theory post and replies deleted.  

[rijb]

The war to end all wars was the 1st world war, then the war to end all wars was the 2nd world war. since then we have had a multitude of wars and we are still fighting all over the world. I don't know for sure, but at a rough guess I would say that 1/4 or more of the world is at war now in some form or another.

The Christians will eventually rise up as they have in the past wars and sort it once again.

 

The trigger points for another WW are in place...

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/world-war-could-happen-iii-trigger-2014-7

[transam]

On my travels in Italy I saw memorials in villages where the retreating Germans executed Italian citizens cos Italy gave up.

 

.