Gaza school strike 'criminal' - UN

[Morch]

More dishonest spin. There are plenty of legitimate examples of anti-Semitism that Jingthing and others have pointed out on this forum - before they get deleted - and plenty of anti-Semitic links and websites as well.

It takes a lot of work to refute all the FAKE QUOTES and such that have been posted here. It is not our job to check every single website to see if the information is factual, so do your own work.

My Jewish pals are appalled at what is going on.

Is that dishonest spin?

Not a spin, just not a very good argument.

We can all claim pals who feel this way or otherwise.

And again, finding Jews or Israelis who will publicly denounce Israel and its government is not that rare.

The opposite, Palestinians publicly speaking against their leadership, is definitely news.

I didn't claim pals.

I made a statement.

Alright then - an unverifiable statement made to support an argument.

Whatever suits you. Still does not make it any more credible than "Somchai said".

[Morch]

The Daily Mail can be accessed via a proxy server in Thailand

here is the item and yes it is true

An Israeli official has called for concentration camps in Gaza and ‘the conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters’.

Moshe Feiglin, Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Knesset and member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling Likud Party, posted the inflammatory message on his Facebook page at the weekend.

He lays out a detailed plan for the destruction of Gaza - which includes shipping its residents across the world - in a letter he addressed to the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

The message, which received more than 2,000 likes on his page, lists four action points which he wants to be enforced as soon as possible.

Feiglin details the first one as 'defining the enemy' and states: 'The strategic enemy is extremist Arab Islam in all its varieties, from Iran to Gaza, which seeks to annihilate Israel in its entirety. The immediate enemy is Hamas. (Not the tunnels, not the rockets, but Hamas.)'

He says another important part of his plan is the 'conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2715466/Israeli-official-calls-concentration-camps-Gaza-conquest-entire-Gaza-Strip-annihilation-fighting-forces-supporters.html#ixzz39Si3z1Wp

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

He is indeed a far right winger.

However, in this video interview, he clarifies his position and he is not really pro-genocide:

http://www.jpost.com/International/WATCH-CNNs-Blitzer-grills-Likud-MK-Feiglin-over-calls-for-Gaza-concentration-camp-370223

Perhaps (more like probably) the "concentration camp" thing has been overblown.

He's a far right fascist racist loon as they come.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Feiglin

He is a relative new-comer to the Likud party, and one of the markers of the party going more right wing than ever.

This process, sometimes seen as hijacking of the party, causes the Likud to lose voters for center and other right wing

parties. Not much love lost between him and Netanyahu.

[konying]

Amazing wise words from Mosab Hassan Yousef.... "" Hamas doesn’t care about the lives of Palestinians; does not care about the lives of Israelis or Americans. They don’t care about their own lives. They consider dying for the sake of their ideology a way of worship.. “"Hamas is not seeking coexistence and compromise. Hamas is seeking conquest and taking over. And by the way, the destruction of the State of Israel is not Hamas’s final destination. Hamas final destination is building the Islamic caliphate, which means an Islamic state under rubble of every other civilization.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KakxXN5Z-XI#t=129

Edited August 6, 2014 by konying

[Jingthing]

Yes I totally agree he's very far right. But not the same thing as suggesting he hopes to set up concentration camps with gas chambers.

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[Steely Dan]

Interesting how a topic about "criminal " acts by Israel is being turned into "anti jewish" action and issues connected. It shows the weakness in their indefensible stance.

It's the default response for the Hasbara-bots: deflection at all costs.

And back to the OP if you hypocritically talk of deflection. The strike took place OUTSIDE the U.N school, so all the bullshit about Israel targeting schools deliberately has been disproven along with all the premature speculative hot air about war crimes. Meanwhile Hamas have been fingered for dragging dead bodies of their fighters into the school compound and adding the body of a child like a propaganda cherry on the top. Still it was good for over ten pages of posts from our pseudo humanitarian frothers.

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I leave the "bullshit"to the Israel apologists.So lets have International independent investigation of the school hits and killings.Not as if Israel ever takes notice of international investigations or those opposing its illegality.

How does one conduct an independent investigation in Gaza Strip while Hamas is in charge?

Who will conduct this independent inquiry? The unbiased UNHRC?

How indeed? Here is Navi Pilay suggesting Israel's refusal to share Iron Dome with Hamas May be a war crime. Of course such nonsense has to at all costs be kept out of the MSM or else after recovering from the hysterics people would realize they have been fed lies all the while.

http://www.jspacenews.com/un-wants-israel-share-iron-dome-hamas/

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[dexterm]

How does one conduct an independent investigation in Gaza Strip while Hamas is in charge?

Same as they did in 2009 ...the report by respected jurist Richard Goldstone, which Israel as per usual refused to cooperate with.

It's very hard to assess Israeli claims that when they bomb a school, hospital or refugee center they act with the utmost care to avoid civilian casualties, when they won't even allow their own soldiers to be interviewed. Sounds like they have something to hide...and we all know they have!

[cheeryble]

Maybe you should read the article written by the Rabbi linked to earlier; Rabbi does mean teacher, does it not?

I already read it. I also Googled him. He is a far left activist who has been demonizing Israel and America for years - pretty much what I expected.

Does being a far left activist and demoniser of America or Israel exclude his comprehensive and nuanced views from consideration?

Whose views are we allowed to listen to?

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Edited August 7, 2014 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

Netanyahu put on his usual polished but unctuous performance yesterday.

Had I been a journalist I would have noted that the kill rate of 100-for-1 now seemed to be the benchmark.

Hamas may be at fault, civilians may be at fault.

The question is, is disproportionate collective punishment acceptable policy?

Should all nations be using it?

ps the last time I looked 17 people had been killed by these Hamas pipe bombs over was it ten years?

Is sacrificing 50 Israeli troops.....which must have been predictable in an offence in enemy domestic territory.....a reasonable action to attempt to halt them, and is there any reason to believe....unless the collective punishment does indeed work......that the pipe bombs won't just be started up again at will?

Is this taking care of 50 Israeli mothers' sons?

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Edited August 7, 2014 by cheeryble

[Ulysses G.]

The question is, is disproportionate collective punishment acceptable policy?

One problem. No matter how many times you folks repeat it, it was not "collective punishment". It was a military campaign to get rid of terrorist infrastructure and rockets that are constantly being shot into Israel to disrupt daily life.

No country on earth would pit up with it and Israel is not going to either.

[kblaze]

Not sure if you're trolling now or just my post not being clear enough.

The IDF did not destroy all the tunnels existing under the Gaza Strip, just those leading into Israel.

There are plenty more, and obviously Hamas leadership is hiding underground.

All I am saying is that Hamas invested a massive effort in constructing an underground network of

tunnels under the Gaza Strip and that it could have been utilized to protect some of the population.

This did not happen and tunnels were kept for Hamas use only.

As for letting non-combatants out of the fighting area, I was all for that and posted so in quite a few

topics. I do not think there was any realistic way to transfer Gazans en-masse to the West Bank,

though, even if the West Bank was adequately equipped to handle this situation. Rather, I thought

that under different conditions, Egypt could have created a restricted zone near its border with the

Gaza Strip and allow temporary passage for non-combatants only. Much easier logistically and much

safer all around.

No, not trolling, I just found the suggestion that Gazans who wish to flee the fighting hide out in tunnels ridiculous given the IDF's campaign to destroy tunnels.

I do agree with what you said about a safe zone near the border of Egypt.

[kblaze]

The AQ angle (or, for that matter Islamic Jihad) has more to do with domestic politics for the control of the Gaza Strip than

with Israel.

Wrong. In the quote, the AQ leader specifically criticizes them for joining peace processes with Israel. You posted the link, you should know.

The line you quoted from my post in which the link is this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/world/middleeast/khaled-meshal-hamas-leader-delivers-defiant-speech-on-anniversary-celebration.html?pagewanted=all

As far as I can tell AQ is not mentioned there at all.

If you are referring to another link posted by me, do point out where (unless I'm reading wrong the reference was to a source

you quoted, rather than me, but could be wrong).

Either way - I am not wrong in the least. There are other outfits in the Gaza Strip which challenge Hamas for control and for

prestige. The most prominent is Islamic Jihad, with AQ presence still relatively minor. The criticism about Hamas going soft

is related to these struggles, as well as ideological differences. Worth noting that this time around Islamic Jihad was actually

in favor of Egypt playing moderator - as Islamic Jihad is not a Muslim Brotherhood outfit, less bad blood with Egypt's current

regime, and another way to poke Hamas on the domestic front.

It was the reuters link you provided

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/03/12/us-palestinians-qaeda-idUSL1229777020070312

"In an audio recording posted on the Internet on Sunday, al Qaeda's Ayman al-Zawahri accused Hamas of serving U.S. interests by agreeing to respect past Palestinian peace accords with Israel in a recent Saudi-brokered unity government deal with moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah."

[Ulysses G.]

No, not trolling, I just found the suggestion that Gazans who wish to flee the fighting hide out in tunnels ridiculous given the IDF's campaign to destroy tunnels.

Israel are destroying the tunnels from the ground, not from the air. Most likely, any civilians would have plenty of time to get out, before the tunnels were blown up.

[cheeryble]

QUOTE

"No matter how many times you folks repeat it, it was not "collective punishment". It was a military campaign to get rid of terrorist infrastructure and rockets that are constantly being shot into Israel to disrupt daily life.

No country on earth would pit up with it and Israel is not going to either"

-----

Wasn't "putting up with it", executing checks and targeted operations but not stooping to collective punishment, exactly the British response to the prov IRA bombing and other campaigns over just as many years which killed 1700 people and huge bombs in Central London that dwarf anything Hamas is firing.

It is notable that the losses of those responsible for the campaign was multiple times less than those they attacked or the British Army.

It is even more noticeable that in the long run this measured non-collective response worked and the Accords were written and peace more or less reigns.

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Edited August 7, 2014 by cheeryble

[Steely Dan]

How does one conduct an independent investigation in Gaza Strip while Hamas is in charge?

Same as they did in 2009 ...the report by respected jurist Richard Goldstone, which Israel as per usual refused to cooperate with.

It's very hard to assess Israeli claims that when they bomb a school, hospital or refugee center they act with the utmost care to avoid civilian casualties, when they won't even allow their own soldiers to be interviewed. Sounds like they have something to hide...and we all know they have!

More dishonesty I see. The famously impartial UNHRC (who have made more motions against Israel than the rest of the world combined) appointed Richard Goldstone to investigate Israeli conduct during the 2009 Cast Lead op. Thus came the infamous Goldstone report, which was used to vilify Israel from the day it was published. Then well after the initial report as new information came to light Goldstone retracted his findings and largely exonerating Israel.

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[simple1]

What exactly did Goldstone 'retract' from his report on Gaza?

According to Goldstone, the McGowan Davis report findings indicate that Israel did not have an explicit policy of causing intentional harm to civilians. This is the "retraction" everyone is rejoicing over.

However, reading the final UN report reveals that the committee didn't come anywhere near that conclusion.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/what-exactly-did-goldstone-retract-from-his-report-on-gaza-1.355454

Another review…

http://mondoweiss.net/2011/04/goldstone-%E2%80%98retractions%E2%80%99-vs-facts.html

[Steely Dan]

What exactly did Goldstone 'retract' from his report on Gaza?

According to Goldstone, the McGowan Davis report findings indicate that Israel did not have an explicit policy of causing intentional harm to civilians. This is the "retraction" everyone is rejoicing over.

However, reading the final UN report reveals that the committee didn't come anywhere near that conclusion.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/what-exactly-did-goldstone-retract-from-his-report-on-gaza-1.355454

Another review…

http://mondoweiss.net/2011/04/goldstone-%E2%80%98retractions%E2%80%99-vs-facts.html

I'm surprised you didn't dredge up any comment by Richard Falk in order to carry out a damage limitation exercise on a report the author in his own words stated would have been a different document had he been aware of all facts from the start. Here is what the Washington post had to say.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html

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[Steely Dan]

Talking of the truth emerging gradually, here is another example of the press validating Israeli claims about Hamas firing rockets from built up areas and close to UN buildings.

http://therightscoop.com/french-reporter-who-ran-after-hamas-rocket-launched-next-to-him-changes-his-tune-exposes-hamas-using-human-shields/

No doubt it will take as long to refute the thousands of lies spread by Hamas and it's enablers as it will for Hamas to re-arm and start the cycle again.

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[kblaze]

How does one conduct an independent investigation in Gaza Strip while Hamas is in charge?

Same as they did in 2009 ...the report by respected jurist Richard Goldstone, which Israel as per usual refused to cooperate with.

It's very hard to assess Israeli claims that when they bomb a school, hospital or refugee center they act with the utmost care to avoid civilian casualties, when they won't even allow their own soldiers to be interviewed. Sounds like they have something to hide...and we all know they have!

More dishonesty I see. The famously impartial UNHRC (who have made more motions against Israel than the rest of the world combined) appointed Richard Goldstone to investigate Israeli conduct during the 2009 Cast Lead op. Thus came the infamous Goldstone report, which was used to vilify Israel from the day it was published. Then well after the initial report as new information came to light Goldstone retracted his findings and largely exonerating Israel.

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Exaggeration.

From his WP Op-ed;

"While I welcome Israel’s investigations into allegations, I share the concerns reflected in the McGowan Davis report that few of Israel’s inquiries have been concluded and believe that the proceedings should have been held in a public forum. "

[simple1]

What exactly did Goldstone 'retract' from his report on Gaza?

According to Goldstone, the McGowan Davis report findings indicate that Israel did not have an explicit policy of causing intentional harm to civilians. This is the "retraction" everyone is rejoicing over.

However, reading the final UN report reveals that the committee didn't come anywhere near that conclusion.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/what-exactly-did-goldstone-retract-from-his-report-on-gaza-1.355454

Another review…

http://mondoweiss.net/2011/04/goldstone-%E2%80%98retractions%E2%80%99-vs-facts.html

I'm surprised you didn't dredge up any comment by Richard Falk in order to carry out a damage limitation exercise on a report the author in his own words stated would have been a different document had he been aware of all facts from the start. Here is what the Washington post had to say.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html

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Didn't know about Falk, have only heard of him. Quick bit of Google search, no not interested.

What is it that you refute in the two links reviewing the Wasington Post Op Ed & why?

[OZEMADE]

This may change some peoples minds.

Another side to the story, would have been worse than 9/11.

Stories From The Battlefield: Hamas Tunnels Used To Target Israel’s Kindergartens

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/27/stories-from-the-battlefield-hamas-tunnels-used-to-target-israels-kindergartens/#ixzz38o07e37G

[Jingthing]

This may change some peoples minds.

Another side to the story, would have been worse than 9/11.

Stories From The Battlefield: Hamas Tunnels Used To Target Israel’s Kindergartens

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/27/stories-from-the-battlefield-hamas-tunnels-used-to-target-israels-kindergartens/#ixzz38o07e37G

I doubt that any Israel demonizers minds can be changed by ANYTHING. So many of them are Hamas SUPPORTERS. That means they agree with the charter of Hamas -- to take over all of Israel from the Jews and to kill the million of Jews there that can't/won't flee. So such people would be HAPPY if such attacks were not prevented.

[ggold]

What exactly did Goldstone 'retract' from his report on Gaza?

According to Goldstone, the McGowan Davis report findings indicate that Israel did not have an explicit policy of causing intentional harm to civilians. This is the "retraction" everyone is rejoicing over.

However, reading the final UN report reveals that the committee didn't come anywhere near that conclusion.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/what-exactly-did-goldstone-retract-from-his-report-on-gaza-1.355454

Another review…

http://mondoweiss.net/2011/04/goldstone-%E2%80%98retractions%E2%80%99-vs-facts.html

I'm surprised you didn't dredge up any comment by Richard Falk in order to carry out a damage limitation exercise on a report the author in his own words stated would have been a different document had he been aware of all facts from the start. Here is what the Washington post had to say.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html

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Didn't know about Falk, have only heard of him. Quick bit of Google search, no not interested.

What is it that you refute in the two links reviewing the Wasington Post Op Ed & why?

Quick bit of Google search, no not interested.

did you search?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Richard+Falk+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/08/01/former-un-official-charged-with-anti-semitism-now-california-academic-takes-on/

Richard Falk, the notorious former United Nations human rights official who was widely castigated for his anti-Semitic statements and aggressively anti-Israeli stance before finally leaving office in May, is at it again.

[kblaze]

This may change some peoples minds.

Another side to the story, would have been worse than 9/11.

Stories From The Battlefield: Hamas Tunnels Used To Target Israel’s Kindergartens

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/27/stories-from-the-battlefield-hamas-tunnels-used-to-target-israels-kindergartens/#ixzz38o07e37G

One of the worst articles I've ever read. Pure rabid hypothetical, exaggerated conjecture. Really? a tunnel attack that will kill over 10,000 people? Fear-mongering tripe with no substance, no sources, written by a former Israeli "researcher" from Ben-Gurion U. So many factual errors that even exaggerate the IDF's own claims (for example the IDF says there were 32 tunnels into Israel, this "article" says 40".

Starts off by saying "multiple media outlets have reported that an attack was to happen during the Jewish high holidays on Sept 24th"....then proceeds to not name a single of the supposed media outlets, doesn't provide a single link.

Look at this;

"Israeli security sources, citing information acquired in interrogations of captured brigands, described a scenario under which hundreds of heavily armed Hamas fighters would have spilled out into Israel in the dead of night and within 10 minutes been positioned to infiltrate essentially all Israeli communities surrounding the Gaza Strip. Waiting then in hiding until schools and kindergartens were occupied, the terrorists would then attempt to kill the children first, and then kill and kidnap as many Israelis as possible. The plot was set to take place during Jewish New Year, on September 24."

Really? "Captured brigands" gave alll those tiny little details?

[kblaze]

This may change some peoples minds.

Another side to the story, would have been worse than 9/11.

Stories From The Battlefield: Hamas Tunnels Used To Target Israel’s Kindergartens

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/27/stories-from-the-battlefield-hamas-tunnels-used-to-target-israels-kindergartens/#ixzz38o07e37G

I doubt that any Israel demonizers minds can be changed by ANYTHING. So many of them are Hamas SUPPORTERS. That means they agree with the charter of Hamas -- to take over all of Israel from the Jews and to kill the million of Jews there that can't/won't flee. So such people would be HAPPY if such attacks were not prevented.

Whats the difference in your mind between a "critic" and a "demonizer"?

[Jingthing]

Whats the difference in your mind between a "critic" and a "demonizer"?

It's a case by case. I'm a critic. Irrational Israel demonization. You know it when you see it. It's not "rocket" science.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Jingthing

[up-country_sinclair]

This may change some peoples minds.

Another side to the story, would have been worse than 9/11.

Stories From The Battlefield: Hamas Tunnels Used To Target Israel’s Kindergartens

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/27/stories-from-the-battlefield-hamas-tunnels-used-to-target-israels-kindergartens/#ixzz38o07e37G

One of the worst articles I've ever read. Pure rabid hypothetical, exaggerated conjecture. Really? a tunnel attack that will kill over 10,000 people? Fear-mongering tripe with no substance, no sources, written by a former Israeli "researcher" from Ben-Gurion U. So many factual errors that even exaggerate the IDF's own claims (for example the IDF says there were 32 tunnels into Israel, this "article" says 40".

Starts off by saying "multiple media outlets have reported that an attack was to happen during the Jewish high holidays on Sept 24th"....then proceeds to not name a single of the supposed media outlets, doesn't provide a single link.

100% Hasbara .

The specifics in the article were created (yes created) to generate as much sympathy for Israel and outrage at Hamas possible.

Killing kindergartners on the "high holidays". And then moving on to kill 10,000 more. Sure. Maybe they also plotted to push old women down the stairs.

[Jingthing]

They would if they could ... so Israel needs to make sure they CAN'T.

[up-country_sinclair]

They would if they could ... so Israel needs to make sure they CAN'T.

A perfect illustration for why the free thinking people of world are no longer paying attention to the perpetual clarion call of Israeli victimhood.

No effort is made support or defend the absurd content of the article (because it's nearly impossible), instead the focus is shifted to the demonization of Arabs for something dreamed up in a Hasbara meeting room along with attempted justification of Israel's murderous policies.

Edited August 7, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[Jingthing]

I suppose the IDF built the terror tunnels for propaganda purposes ...

The Israel demonizers don't fool me.

They are mostly pro Hamas and pro Hamas means they don't accept the existence of Israel.

[simple1]

What exactly did Goldstone 'retract' from his report on Gaza?

According to Goldstone, the McGowan Davis report findings indicate that Israel did not have an explicit policy of causing intentional harm to civilians. This is the "retraction" everyone is rejoicing over.

However, reading the final UN report reveals that the committee didn't come anywhere near that conclusion.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/what-exactly-did-goldstone-retract-from-his-report-on-gaza-1.355454

Another review…

http://mondoweiss.net/2011/04/goldstone-%E2%80%98retractions%E2%80%99-vs-facts.html

I'm surprised you didn't dredge up any comment by Richard Falk in order to carry out a damage limitation exercise on a report the author in his own words stated would have been a different document had he been aware of all facts from the start. Here is what the Washington post had to say.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html

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Didn't know about Falk, have only heard of him. Quick bit of Google search, no not interested.

What is it that you refute in the two links reviewing the Wasington Post Op Ed & why?

Quick bit of Google search, no not interested.

did you search?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Richard+Falk+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/08/01/former-un-official-charged-with-anti-semitism-now-california-academic-takes-on/

Richard Falk, the notorious former United Nations human rights official who was widely castigated for his anti-Semitic statements and aggressively anti-Israeli stance before finally leaving office in May, is at it again.

What is it that you refute in the two links reviewing the Wasington Post Op Ed & why?