Two Australian couples stopped from leaving Thailand with surrogate babies

[wilcopops]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

so by the same logic, heterosexual couples who can't have babies shouldn't either?

[kingstonkid]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Do you also have a problem with infertile heterosexual couples having children? Or are you just a homophobic bigot?

Personally I have no issue with LGBT couples having kids. The problem i have is that they come here to do it. Is that because they are not legally allowed to do it in their own country, they have a criminal past that they want hidden, they are not legally allowed to have kids in their country,

I have an issue with anyone coming to this country that is not Thai, having a thai child and then taking it away.

I personally have an issue with test tubes be they human or not being used for the gains of people that are too cheap to do this at home or not legally able to do this at home.

Be they LGBT, hetero, Pedo, rapist, or anything else.

Countries like the US, Australia, Britain, canada and others can not tar the country as a place that is black listed for Human trafficking and then expect it to legalize or turn a blind eye to what is in effect baby trafficking. It is illegal in most western countries to sell a baby and I can assure you that if a baby was born in Toronto or New York and the people paying for a baby were discovered there would be a huge outcry against it.

[kingstonkid]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Do you also have a problem with infertile heterosexual couples having children? Or are you just a homophobic bigot?

Personally I have no issue with LGBT couples having kids. The problem i have is that they come here to do it. Is that because they are not legally allowed to do it in their own country, they have a criminal past that they want hidden, they are not legally allowed to have kids in their country,

I have an issue with anyone coming to this country that is not Thai, having a thai child and then taking it away.

I personally have an issue with test tubes be they human or not being used for the gains of people that are too cheap to do this at home or not legally able to do this at home.

Be they LGBT, hetero, Pedo, rapist, or anything else.

Countries like the US, Australia, Britain, canada and others can not tar the country as a place that is black listed for Human trafficking and then expect it to legalize or turn a blind eye to what is in effect baby trafficking. It is illegal in most western countries to sell a baby and I can assure you that if a baby was born in Toronto or New York and the people paying for a baby were discovered there would be a huge outcry against it.

[Artisi]

Ah! so now the crap has hit the fan they are stopping them at the Airport! I hope the initial breach and how it happened is being investigated otherwise it is just knee jerk reaction to a cover up!

It is also against Thai Human Trafficking laws and the country is under huge pressure internationally to stamp out human trafficking. Add this and the huge international attention Thailand is receiving in regards to baby Gammy and the Junta is going to act. I don't think this will just be a simple knew jerk reaction. I saw on Australian Television news this morning that all people with young children are being checked for proof of parentage.

about 1 month ago we flew out of Thailand for a quick holiday, wife and 4 year old son were channelled thru a separate gate to myself with son being quizzed as to who he was, who were his parents and where was he going etc. after mother was told to remain quiet.

[MobileContent]

I think it makes sense that they clamp down on all kinds of human smuggling and as well tighten their immigration laws with the correct visas and we can be sure that Thailand will got off the US list next year.

[Zeegator]

Hmmmm!!! Another ban placed on something without thinking about the repercussions.

Hmmmm...they have thought about the repercussions that's why they're doing it.

[MyFriend You]

I'm surprised I am not reading this point here: The baby is BIOLOGICALLY related to the foreigner. An agreement had been made, a contract signed. In hearing that it has "now been declared illegal", I can deduce that it has been up until now, legal. They cannot just shut it down so suddenly now. Let me re-phrase that: they should not just shut it down suddenly. Even if it is non-biological adoption, I think the contract/agreement should be honoured if all parties still want to honor it. In most countries (probably not Thailand, because Thai biology is of course superior) the biological parent would have some RIGHTS in the case. This is not a case of human trafficking of some sort, it is a case of the human rights violation of the adopting, biological parent who had a legitimate agreement. If the government wants to halt this practice that is fine with me, probably a good idea. But once again this year there is a hard line execution of the policy. I cannot help but think a large part of the problem is what is written above, "The Thai's are rushing to...." Well, that statement, time and time again, holds the main problem. They don't rush well.

C'mon Mate, call a spade a spade - it is a 'quasi legal' form of human trafficking - Contract babies??? get off your high horse with this "it was a legal contract, so buying & selling babies is now a 'legal business'........... next thing you know, there will be baby farms where you deposit sperm and grow a baby. A '60s song summed it up "You pick your sons and pick your daughters too, from the bottom of a long glass tube" I think the Thai's have the right to shut down anything they want too within the scope of "their Laws" it is their country.

[Zeegator]

Why are same sex men creating babies. Just adopt.

If homosexuals want to live as they do they should accept that their choice means that babies should never, and will never, be part of it.

If they want children so desperately maybe they should get wives or girlfriends.

[Zeegator]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Do you also have a problem with infertile heterosexual couples having children? Or are you just a homophobic bigot?

I would hope that he is like most normal people, including myself, who you refer to as homophobic bigots.

[steveyinasia]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Do you also have a problem with infertile heterosexual couples having children? Or are you just a homophobic bigot?

I agree that same sex couples should not be coming here to make children. Call me what you like.

Look at the recent case of the two gay males in Cairns who bought a baby boy in Russia, took him to Australia and made him their sex slave. And imagine how it must screw with the kids heads being bought up by two gays as their fathers.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It is illegal for same sex couples to use the service of a surrogate in Thailand. For these gay couples to get the children out of Thailand they have to apply to Family Court to be deemed the parents which will take up to 6 months of red tape. Somehow I doubt that the Thai Family Court will deem them legal parents as the child was acquired illegally and the Court would only be supporting illegal activity if they do.

It is also illegal to use surrogacy for anyone outside of the family or close relative, I don't see Gammy's mum being charged yet however if we are going to be siting the rule of Thai law.....she should also be behind bars.

[chooka]

.............surrogate babies are genetically 100% from the parents and the surrogate mother got a fertilized egg from the real mother inplanted right?

Correct -- by definition..

It has to be said that the whole topic of surrogacy is riddled with mis-conceptions and abuse.

In Thailand when the child is born the surrogate is listed on the birth certificate as the mother and if she is married her husband as the father. These couples don't get a mention on the birth certificate.

What they have to do now is make an application to the Thai Family Court to be recognised as the parent/parents which is a long process. I was/am listed on my son's birth certificate as the father (my name and passport number) but that does not legally make me the father in Thailand as I am a foreigner. I had to go through the courts to be legally recognised.

My wife and I hired a solicitor and made application. We had to attend one on one interviews with Thailand's Dept of Human Services and Child Protection Authorities then combined interviews. We had to have 2 independent witnesses (non family) who were also interviewed in relation to seeing myself acting as a father for a period of time. These agencies then send their reports to the Family Court a process that takes approx. 2 months. After that your application is posted on the public notice board at the Family Court for approx. 2 months to allow persons to lodge a notice of objection. My wife/partner had to agree that I was the father and a fit and proper person and her family/friends could have lodged a notice of objection to the contrary.

A court date is then set and the application heard before a judge where parents and witnesses give their evidence. The Judge will then sign off as myself being the father. Then it was off to the local Amphur to have it registered and receive further documents and then it is back to the court to lodge those documents and approx. a 30 day wait whilst the judge peruses these documents in chambers. After that you finally get the official document from the court as you being a foreigner are now recognised as the father of a child born in Thailand. Whole process takes a little over 6 months and costs.

My son's Thai birth certificate (Translated) was acceptable in Australia to verify me as the father and get him citizenship. I know someone here will ask, why not just get DNA? We asked the same question of our Solicitor and the Courts but DNA is not acceptable and you still have to go through the whole court process.

These Gay couples may have a huge hurdle ahead of them especially if they can't meet all the court requirements (independent witnesses etc) or the birth mother doesn't agree.

[NongKhaiKid]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Somehow I don't see you getting a Christmas card from Elton and David.

[JeremyBowskill]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Do you also have a problem with infertile heterosexual couples having children? Or are you just a homophobic bigot?

What's homophobic about biology?

Well, you didn't really answer his question. Infertility is also something biological ....

funnily enough that's because he didn't ask me.

[ironbark]

I keep reading from people opposed to surrogacy that people should adopt instead.

They seem to be unaware of the fact that there are just not enough unwanted babies in Western countries available to adopt.

A huge social change occurred in the 1960's with the advent of the contraceptive pill, access to safe abortion and social welfare for single mothers. There was no longer the social stigma against unmarried mothers. Women started to keep their babies instead of giving them up to orphanages.

This was a good thing given the terrible abuses we now know about that happened to these children in those institutions.

Well managed and ethical surrogacy is a much more desirable way for childless couples to have a family.

Edited August 15, 2014 by ironbark

[orosee]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Do you also have a problem with infertile heterosexual couples having children? Or are you just a homophobic bigot?

I would hope that he is like most normal people, including myself, who you refer to as homophobic bigots.

Don't you think that the argument whether a gay man/woman can be a loving parent should be made by a gay person? In fact, I'd value the experienced opinion of a gay parent (and their closest relatives or friends) much higher than those of people who start most of of their own arguments with "I have nothing against gays, but...".

People here seem to think that being gay means having analysis sex 24/7, including during feedings and diaper changes. And yet 99% of all gay people are children of heterosexual relationships ("normal" families). Why not put an end to that?

If people are afraid of homosexual parents, they should fear single straight male parents as well. The problem here is lack of regulation, not the parents' sexual orientation.

Edited August 15, 2014 by orosee

[Baerboxer]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Do you also have a problem with infertile heterosexual couples having children? Or are you just a homophobic bigot?

Keith is entitled to his view. That doesn't make him a homophobic bigot; anymore than your view, which you are entitled to, makes you a bleeding heart PC liberal.

The accusations that people are homophobic, racist, or anti semitic are banded around far too easily by those who believe they are PC or wish to defend their view by attacking anyone who has a different view.

It is not natural for same sex couples to have babies. It is natural to for hetrosexual couples to have babies. Can you see the difference? Or are you simply blinded by your desire to be PC or promote what you consider to be homosexual rights?

[NongKhaiKid]

.............surrogate babies are genetically 100% from the parents and the surrogate mother got a fertilized egg from the real mother inplanted right?

Correct -- by definition..

It has to be said that the whole topic of surrogacy is riddled with mis-conceptions and abuse.

In Thailand when the child is born the surrogate is listed on the birth certificate as the mother and if she is married her husband as the father. These couples don't get a mention on the birth certificate.

What they have to do now is make an application to the Thai Family Court to be recognised as the parent/parents which is a long process. I was/am listed on my son's birth certificate as the father (my name and passport number) but that does not legally make me the father in Thailand as I am a foreigner. I had to go through the courts to be legally recognised.

My wife and I hired a solicitor and made application. We had to attend one on one interviews with Thailand's Dept of Human Services and Child Protection Authorities then combined interviews. We had to have 2 independent witnesses (non family) who were also interviewed in relation to seeing myself acting as a father for a period of time. These agencies then send their reports to the Family Court a process that takes approx. 2 months. After that your application is posted on the public notice board at the Family Court for approx. 2 months to allow persons to lodge a notice of objection. My wife/partner had to agree that I was the father and a fit and proper person and her family/friends could have lodged a notice of objection to the contrary.

A court date is then set and the application heard before a judge where parents and witnesses give their evidence. The Judge will then sign off as myself being the father. Then it was off to the local Amphur to have it registered and receive further documents and then it is back to the court to lodge those documents and approx. a 30 day wait whilst the judge peruses these documents in chambers. After that you finally get the official document from the court as you being a foreigner are now recognised as the father of a child born in Thailand. Whole process takes a little over 6 months and costs.

My son's Thai birth certificate (Translated) was acceptable in Australia to verify me as the father and get him citizenship. I know someone here will ask, why not just get DNA? We asked the same question of our Solicitor and the Courts but DNA is not acceptable and you still have to go through the whole court process.

These Gay couples may have a huge hurdle ahead of them especially if they can't meet all the court requirements (independent witnesses etc) or the birth mother doesn't agree.

I'm more than a little lost by all of this so please excuse me but what sort of paperwork are all these ' parents ' producing to get the babies out of Thailand.

At the other end how do they get the baby into their home country ? Australia for example has a strict border control I'm told.

[Baerboxer]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Do you also have a problem with infertile heterosexual couples having children? Or are you just a homophobic bigot?

I would hope that he is like most normal people, including myself, who you refer to as homophobic bigots.

Don't you think that the argument whether a gay man/woman can be a loving parent should be made by a gay person? In fact, I'd value the experienced opinion of a gay parent (and their closest relatives or friends) much higher than those of people who start most of of their own arguments with "I have nothing against gays, but...".

People here seem to think that being gay means having analysis sex 24/7, including during feedings and diaper changes. And yet 99% of all gay people are children of heterosexual relationships ("normal" families). Why not put an end to that?

If people are afraid of homosexual parents, they should fear single straight male parents as well. The problem here is lack of regulation, not the parents' sexual orientation.

And what consideration do you give to the children? How will they be brought up if they are hetrosexual? Will their homosexual parents put pressure on them? Will they find it difficult in an environment where many of their parents friends are homosexual? Then there is the issue of the birth mother.

Why should any child be possibly subjected to these extra pressures just because some adults want to "have a family" when their sexuality doesn't accommodate it naturally?

The laws on surrogacy need reviewing in many countries not just Thailand. Too many see it simply as a financial transaction with little impact on how it will effect the children as they mature.

[thailand334]

Same sex 'male' couples should NOT be able to have any hand in bringing up a child. That child would almost certainly go through their school life and probably beyond being bullied relentlessly. They certainly would in my home country anyway, and that is a fact.

'Female' couples is a different story as you can't stop them having their own from a sperm donor.

If surrogacy is illegal within the borders of a certain country, then their citizens should NOT be allowed to just jump on a plane and exploit another country and bring the child back to the country where it is illegal. The child should be sent straight back to its natural mother and the couple involved prosecuted by the relevant laws as though they committed the crime within that country.

The surrogate involved in the baby Grammy case should be given her child back from Australia and have all the money removed from her, including the surrogacy revenue and charitable donations.

Her downs child is now being milked as a cash cow for all it is worth. Those clowns in Oz don't deserve to keep a dog let alone a child.

Edited to add.

A child is a human being and deserves to be brought up by its natuaral parents.... end of..... It is not a commodity to be bought, sold and traded over the internet or through agencies with baht signs in their eyes and no compassion for the human lives they affect.

Dreadful, dreadful business.

Edited August 15, 2014 by thailand334

[Baerboxer]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

so by the same logic, heterosexual couples who can't have babies shouldn't either?

Your logic is sophistry.

[jingjoke]

Oh what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to conceive. But hey, guess there's no spare wombs in Australia.

[gabruce]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

I guess your argument would extend to different sex partners where the husband is NOT the biological father (sterile, wife cheated etc, artificial insemination)? Not that there is anything wrong with having an opinion however it does seem like a logical extension. Adoption would also be ruled out.

[zydeco]

I'm guessing a lot of things are going to change in this Era After Corruption. There must be hundreds of dodgy scams that have been afoot for decades now that will be uncovered and with any luck stopped. Anything that brings more transparency and oversight to these dealings before some couple skips in and out of Thailand with a baby or two in hand is to be applauded.

[laurenrebecca]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

So Keith, let me get this right. Same sex partners cannot have babies naturally, so they should not reproduce.

I am infertile, and therefore unable to reproduce....so since I cannot have a baby myself I should not have a surrogate?

Incidentally, I am a lesbian too, so I guess that is a double whammy in your book??

[TimTang]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Do you also have a problem with infertile heterosexual couples having children? Or are you just a homophobic bigot?

Having your own beliefs and disagreeing with something is NOT a phobia. I wish gays would stop trying to redefine the English language for their own agenda. To borrow the same technique from Islam (Islamophobia) does not place you in good company.

[starkey_rich]

I think Gammy's surrogate mom might have upset quite a few people here for going public.

[atyclb]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Do you also have a problem with infertile heterosexual couples having children? Or are you just a homophobic bigot?

I agree that same sex couples should not be coming here to make children. Call me what you like.

Look at the recent case of the two gay males in Cairns who bought a baby boy in Russia, took him to Australia and made him their sex slave. And imagine how it must screw with the kids heads being bought up by two gays as their fathers.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

There is no lack of incest among hetero parents and the practice should be considered deviant whether in hetero or same sex parents.

nobody is making a case against expats in thailand whose practices/choices could constitute "animal husbandry"

[belg]

can the people get their paid money back than, dear general ?

by thai law, these babies are not thai !

so some unelected people make laws on the spot

so why don't they start killing all rapists & paedos, like the public demands in the last train rape / murder case(s) ?

Edited August 15, 2014 by belg

[worgeordie]

Puppy farms, now Baby farms,really its all about making money,

and lots of it i expect,throw back the rejects and ask for a refund !

I feel its not right morally or ethnically,and it seems they are not

screening the the people that are paying for this service,if a

convicted pedophile,can BUY a little girl,god only knows what the

future holds for any of the babies, they are now a commodity.

regards Worgeordie

[kamahele]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

These are their children. Made with their sperm. Genetically theirs. Will you have them placed in an orphanage instead of with their parents?