Two Australian couples stopped from leaving Thailand with surrogate babies

[arjunadawn]

Anyone who writes "I believe in xxx right.........but" is displaying a contradiction between what they say they believe and what they really feel. Being gay is not an acquired life choice but something that is part of the person, usually from long before they are at the point of understanding or forming relationships. It is not something about which there is a choice. It is therefore by definition natural. What we are discussing here is not unnatural birth - scientists are not creating wombs in men so that they can have children- it is the normal process of adoption. For any child the most important thing is that they are brought up and nurtured in a loving and caring envrionmnet which allows them to develop their real personality free from the prejudice and and the lifestyle chosen by their parents. It doesnt matter whether this is one father one mother, two mothers, two fathers, a single parent or even a commune of twenty people. Looking around I see children who are, for example, given little choice about what (if any) faith they follow and who have been taught that the only correct values are those their parents (whatever sex) subscribe to. I doubt you have ever encountered a teenager thrown out by their gay parents "for being straight" but there are far too many examples of the opposite.

I realise that you see some kind of militant gay agenda - and there may well be a few people with extreme views - but these are not the majority and the only reason a "gay agenda" exists at all is that for many the experience of acknowledging who they are has opened them to both abuse and physical attack. People generally do not get beaten up because they are straight - but if you are gay, even in a relatively civilised country like the UK, then it is something always in the back of your mind. Gay militancy came about as a result of decades of religion based oppression and a proud few stood up and faced the challenge to win freedom for all of us. That freedom is still highly fragile and constantly under attack (example recent events and laws in Russia and Uganda) therefore even quite subtle or veiled attacks still need to be challenged.

Who would believe that after the awful revelations of the holodcaust that anti-seminism could arise again in western europe and yet because of what the state of Israel (another country) is engaged in, this awful prejudice is returning. The same thing could (and is in some place happening) to the understanding built up around the issue of being gay. Saying "it is ok for adults to be gay - but dont educated children that being gay is ok (IF that is how they feel) is wrong and displays the underlying prejudice.

I know that i have strayed a little from the actual post but it is all part of the same issue. I was born in the 1950's where being openly gay was not an option and I admit (though not conciously) taking the cowards way of conforming to a straight lifestyle. Doing so eventually caused a great deal of pain to someone I loved but it did give me two wonderful children. The thought that I would have been denied those children if I had been honest fills me with pain - which is why I too get angry when the suggestion is made that gay couples should not have children "because it is not natural".

You haven't strayed. This is a thoughtful, meaningful post. I don't personally see a militant gay agenda (here on TV)- however, this is a militant gay agenda in the USA. Denying this is simply uninformed or disingenuous. It is probably not the majority, agreed, but it is often the "squeaky wheel that gets the oil" so why would it be surprising that this minority activism could offend some? A few points: In my neighborhood, we got beaten up because we were there; because I was smaller; because he was alone; because he was white; because... enough with the victimization. It is a subtle siren call to be a victim, whether true or not, but never leads to an empowered life. Your intro suggests some may see gay militancy and trivialize this possibility but then concede shortly after it exists, and why. I get it. It is there.

Why on earth would a man who comes home and has sex with his wife at the end of the day working in the mines sit down and tell his boy its okay if he wants to have a co_k at the end of his shift when he is older? What mechanics of thought think that is a fair requirement for others because of a personal life choice you made? I know you don't want others to suffer but where does your rights end and the miner's rights begin? Look, your post is a meaningful and heartfelt post, I only object to others trying to influence the private thoughts of others. There is only darkness down this road when this occurs, for all. Eddie and Rolf were the two guys- a couple- who came to our home every Christmas since a boy in the 1960s. My mom and aunt knew them as friends. Even as a child we knew what was going on, kinda. Eddie was apparently the gruff man and clearly Rolf was the woman; delicate, smart, brilliant even. They remained together year after year after year. As he children from the 60s grew, married, divorced, remarried, Eddie and Rolf continued. Those days would not have permitted them to have adopted children. I was adopted. Do I think they should have been allowed to adopt? I don't know. My life was a complete disaster from numerous adoptions and an orphanage and I still think I prefer to have been left in the home; I guess. Its my opinion. I want others to be able to have there thoughts as well without leverage politics or emotional hostage taking.

Edited August 18, 2014 by arjunadawn

[thaibeachlovers]

Ah! so now the crap has hit the fan they are stopping them at the Airport! I hope the initial breach and how it happened is being investigated otherwise it is just knee jerk reaction to a cover up!

It is also against Thai Human Trafficking laws and the country is under huge pressure internationally to stamp out human trafficking. Add this and the huge international attention Thailand is receiving in regards to baby Gammy and the Junta is going to act. I don't think this will just be a simple knew jerk reaction. I saw on Australian Television news this morning that all people with young children are being checked for proof of parentage.

about 1 month ago we flew out of Thailand for a quick holiday, wife and 4 year old son were channelled thru a separate gate to myself with son being quizzed as to who he was, who were his parents and where was he going etc. after mother was told to remain quiet.

Excellent. Only way to stop atrocities like young girls being forced to go to "some" countries to be married off to someone they don't know. Obviously doesn't refer to the 4 yo boy, but should be mandatory in all civilized countries.

[thaibeachlovers]

I cannot think of any argument that makes sense of two male homosexuals having a surrogate baby, governments of all or any country that is party to this should hang there heads in shame, and if you think I am homophobic then you are probably right although I have some homosexual friends and have no problem on a personal basis with gay people.

Try adoption as some of the OPs have suggested is a way of trying to have children if the agencies accept the applicants as beings acceptable parents and I don't mean because they are gay just acceptable parents, they have made a choice to have a partner that cannot conceive so live with it, the gay or not gay argument is not for this forum.

Why is it any less acceptable for two men to take the surrogacy route than any other type of couple?

Exactly, and why is no one saying that two lesbians should be treated the same as two homosexual men ( they should be ).

[Thai at Heart]

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stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Do you also have a problem with infertile heterosexual couples having children? Or are you just a homophobic bigot?

You degrade yourself and those you presume to represent. Why can't this man simply have a different point of view without receiving pejoratives cloaked as reason? Why couldn't you simply offer your point of view and perhaps make an observation that strengthens your conviction and serves to inform those undecided? Instead you demonstrate the uneasy sense that there is a militant homosexual agenda that seeks to silence those with traditional or alternate views. When a counter point is made, predicated significantly on ad hominen attacks, you reveal the bankruptcy of your position. Let people share without being ugly; he was not. His point was a valid perspective.

When is being homophobic a valid perspective? If he stated that Jews, or Blacks or Christians should not reproduce, would this also be a valid perspective? Pointing out racism, sexism, homophobia or other hate speech is not militant, it is the right thing for a human being to do.

Pointing out that gay men can't reproduce is hardly homophobic. Comparing that to saying blacks can't reproduce is apples and pears.

Gay men can't reproduce.

[thaibeachlovers]

I cannot think of any argument that makes sense of two male homosexuals having a surrogate baby, governments of all or any country that is party to this should hang there heads in shame, and if you think I am homophobic then you are probably right although I have some homosexual friends and have no problem on a personal basis with gay people.

Try adoption as some of the OPs have suggested is a way of trying to have children if the agencies accept the applicants as beings acceptable parents and I don't mean because they are gay just acceptable parents, they have made a choice to have a partner that cannot conceive so live with it, the gay or not gay argument is not for this forum.

Why is it any less acceptable for two men to take the surrogacy route than any other type of couple?

I think Surrogacy is not acceptable at all and even less so for men, they have made a choice or had a choice forced on them but either way, I know it is not so fair but the world aint fair, two wemen can do better for obvious reasons so fair it isn't.

<two wemen can do better for obvious reasons >

Garbage. Many women are terrible parents, including my ex.

[Guest]

I cannot think of any argument that makes sense of two male homosexuals having a surrogate baby, governments of all or any country that is party to this should hang there heads in shame, and if you think I am homophobic then you are probably right although I have some homosexual friends and have no problem on a personal basis with gay people.

Try adoption as some of the OPs have suggested is a way of trying to have children if the agencies accept the applicants as beings acceptable parents and I don't mean because they are gay just acceptable parents, they have made a choice to have a partner that cannot conceive so live with it, the gay or not gay argument is not for this forum.

Why is it any less acceptable for two men to take the surrogacy route than any other type of couple?

I think Surrogacy is not acceptable at all and even less so for men, they have made a choice or had a choice forced on them but either way, I know it is not so fair but the world aint fair, two wemen can do better for obvious reasons so fair it isn't.

So you mean I wasn't capable or fit to take care of my children when they grew up? I'm a man and I took care of my children half the time divided by me and my former wife.

That is not what I meant I had my children full time after the wife and I separated I was talking surrogacy for 2 gay men and for the other op I was talking about wemen and their ability to have a baby with out a surrogate

[Guest]

I cannot think of any argument that makes sense of two male homosexuals having a surrogate baby, governments of all or any country that is party to this should hang there heads in shame, and if you think I am homophobic then you are probably right although I have some homosexual friends and have no problem on a personal basis with gay people.

Try adoption as some of the OPs have suggested is a way of trying to have children if the agencies accept the applicants as beings acceptable parents and I don't mean because they are gay just acceptable parents, they have made a choice to have a partner that cannot conceive so live with it, the gay or not gay argument is not for this forum.

Why is it any less acceptable for two men to take the surrogacy route than any other type of couple?

I think Surrogacy is not acceptable at all and even less so for men, they have made a choice or had a choice forced on them but either way, I know it is not so fair but the world aint fair, two wemen can do better for obvious reasons so fair it isn't.

<two wemen can do better for obvious reasons >

Garbage. Many women are terrible parents, including my ex.

stay on topic I mean they don't need a surrogate

[Bluespunk]

I cannot think of any argument that makes sense of two male homosexuals having a surrogate baby, governments of all or any country that is party to this should hang there heads in shame, and if you think I am homophobic then you are probably right although I have some homosexual friends and have no problem on a personal basis with gay people.

Try adoption as some of the OPs have suggested is a way of trying to have children if the agencies accept the applicants as beings acceptable parents and I don't mean because they are gay just acceptable parents, they have made a choice to have a partner that cannot conceive so live with it, the gay or not gay argument is not for this forum.

Why is it any less acceptable for two men to take the surrogacy route than any other type of couple?

I think Surrogacy is not acceptable at all and even less so for men, they have made a choice or had a choice forced on them but either way, I know it is not so fair but the world aint fair, two wemen can do better for obvious reasons so fair it isn't.

I disagree about surrogacy being unacceptable, but I can see your point and understand the arguments against it (commercially anyway).

However, I have to disagree that two men using this method to have a child is more unacceptable. One of them would have be the biological father, I assume. So it would be their child.

The rules on surrogacy have to apply equally to all, irrespective of sexual orientation.

[Bluespunk]

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stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Do you also have a problem with infertile heterosexual couples having children? Or are you just a homophobic bigot?

You degrade yourself and those you presume to represent. Why can't this man simply have a different point of view without receiving pejoratives cloaked as reason? Why couldn't you simply offer your point of view and perhaps make an observation that strengthens your conviction and serves to inform those undecided? Instead you demonstrate the uneasy sense that there is a militant homosexual agenda that seeks to silence those with traditional or alternate views. When a counter point is made, predicated significantly on ad hominen attacks, you reveal the bankruptcy of your position. Let people share without being ugly; he was not. His point was a valid perspective.

When is being homophobic a valid perspective? If he stated that Jews, or Blacks or Christians should not reproduce, would this also be a valid perspective? Pointing out racism, sexism, homophobia or other hate speech is not militant, it is the right thing for a human being to do.

Pointing out that gay men can't reproduce is hardly homophobic. Comparing that to saying blacks can't reproduce is apples and pears.

Gay men can't reproduce.

Well, they can. Not with each other, but they can provide one of the essential ingredients.

[thaibeachlovers]

Why is it any less acceptable for two men to take the surrogacy route than any other type of couple?

I think Surrogacy is not acceptable at all and even less so for men, they have made a choice or had a choice forced on them but either way, I know it is not so fair but the world aint fair, two wemen can do better for obvious reasons so fair it isn't.

<two wemen can do better for obvious reasons >

Garbage. Many women are terrible parents, including my ex.

stay on topic I mean they don't need a surrogate

OK, but please be more clear in what you are saying.

Post deleted to allow posting.

[Jingthing]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Do you also have a problem with infertile heterosexual couples having children? Or are you just a homophobic bigot?

It was definitely an expression of blatant anti-gay bigotry. But got so many likes. Typical.

I think there are legitimate legal and ethical questions about surrogacy that are being looked at in many nations. But as an another excuse to discriminate against gay people ... that is clearly just the same old bigotry.

There is no good reason that whatever laws go into effect should not treat parents of different sexual orientations the same.

Sadly in Thailand, they aren't there yet.

No legal same sex marriage or partnership and it's clear their surrogacy laws will be openly discriminatory against gay parents.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[thaibeachlovers]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Do you also have a problem with infertile heterosexual couples having children? Or are you just a homophobic bigot?

I do have a problem with ANY infertile couple having medical science provide them with a child. Too many people in the world already.

[mikehock]

stopping same sex couples from taking babies out of the country is good.i have no problem with people having a same sex partner but do not believe they should come here looking to get children they cannot have naturally.basicly same sex partners cannot have babies with each other and therefore cannot have children.i am not religious at all but do believe in the natural order of life.

Do you also have a problem with infertile heterosexual couples having children? Or are you just a homophobic bigot?

From the urban dictionary

I quote

Homophobe Bigot

A derogatory term used by perverts to describe persons who believe homosexual practices are perversions.

Evolutionist: I believe homosexual perversion is unnatural and against survival of our culture as strongest and fittest.

Christian: I believe any sexual activity outside of holy matrimony (opposite sex marriage) is sin.

Muslim: Allah requires submission of all persons to heterosexual lifestyles.

Sexual Pervert to Evolutionist: It is perfectly natural that homosexual genes should expand exponentially in culture. You are just a homophobe bigot.

Sexual pervert to Christian: Just because every previous western empire was destroyed from within by rampant sexual perversion is no reason not to make practicers of sexual perversions a specially protected class of citizens. You are just a homophobe bigot.

Sexual pervert to Muslim: Please don't kill me, I will be GLAD to go back in the closet. I would never call you a homophobe bigot.