What Israel must do now

[DeepInTheForest]

I am not sure what the way forward would be. But I am pretty sure that the increasingly barbaric attacks on civilian populations will lead to increasing trouble for the state.

There is one very simple solution, Israel must cease to exist, and give back the land they STOLE from the Palestinians

Some solutions are very simple, perhaps even desirable, yet very unlikely. And their unintended consequences are difficult to perceive beforehand.

Edited August 16, 2014 by DeepInTheForest

[mania]

It is also clear that the Israel leadership has a clear interest in destroying the Gazan economy,

It is a preferred Israeli tactic as explained here

(Bold & underline added by myself)

Israel's war of disproportionate force on Gaza

In fact, it’s a primary strategy according to Gabi Siboni, head of the Military and Strategic Affairs program at the Institute for National Security Studies in Israel.

This strategy has a well-documented history in Gaza. With the emergence of hostilities, “the IDF will need to act immediately, decisively, and with force that is

disproportionate to the enemy's actions and the threat it poses,” Siboni wrote.

The military response should aim “to inflict enough damage and punishment to require lengthy and immense reconstruction efforts.”

Edited August 16, 2014 by mania

[Jingthing]

Israel must stop believing that it can survive on the land of Palestine which it robbed from the Palestinian people. It cannot! Just look at the map. Does anyone think that the traitors who now rule Arab countries will be there for ever? No, sooner or later the Muslims would rise up, throw their leaders to the dogs, tell the Islam-hating West to take a hike and march towards Jerusesalm with ultra modern weapons like what Iran is now buiding and send the Zionists packing to wherever they came from.

The vast majority of the Jews of Israel were BORN in Israel. ISRAEL is where they come from!

[loppylugs1]

At the end of the day it is Muslims same same ISIS ,Southern Thailand, Burma, Philippines Indonesia,Nigeria,Mali,Libya,Egypt wherever they exist

[DeepInTheForest]

[edited]

It is a preferred Israeli tactic as explained here

Israel's war of disproportionate force on Gaza

Thanks for this. The article linked to is a thoughtful, worthwhile read, imo.

[ezzra]

great story, love it, your either a script writer or you write books

Thanks, but I can't claim ownership to the story...

Edited August 16, 2014 by Scott

[ezzra]

At the end of the day it is Muslims same same ISIS ,Southern Thailand, Burma, Philippines Indonesia,Nigeria,Mali,Libya,Egypt wherever they exist

Which leads to one conclusion... Muslim find it hard to go without provocations, and their individual

interpretation's of the Quran is the biggest problem when the resort to killing other infidels Muslim,

let the Muslim nation make peace among themselves first before embarking on terrorizing other

peace loving people..

[arjunadawn]

If Israel really cared about the lives of the palestinians they would set up refugee camps and protect the palestinian civilians whilst they do a full ground invasion of gaza and get rid of Hamas. Instead they are intentionally bombing UN refugee camps and schools and intentionally targeting children (as shown by the children who were killed when they were playing football on the beach). No sane person is saying that Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself, but what it doesn't have a right to do is commit war crimes and massacres of innocent civilian populations.

Again, if Israel would have intentionally target children, there would be 10 of thousands of them

dead by now, Israel is not Boko haram, or ISIS, there will not be humanitarian cease fires,

there will be not electricity, water, fuel and hundreds of supply trucks entering Gaza from Israel,,

They obviously don't want to kill all of them, just kill enough of them to terrorize the Palestinian population into submission. Israel is not like boko haram nor is it a rational country which follows the Geneva convention and the UN rules of war. The Hamas attacks are in no way existential to the existence of Israel, they should be better than this and not bombing UN schools and refugee camps which is unacceptable by any stretch of the imagination. And electricity and water has been cut by the way, the desalination plants and the power plants which power most of Gaza have been destroyed and it will take months to repair and use again. Israel is an irrational acting country.

Your head remains in your profession. What you state about Israel is utterly absurd, largely sensational, and largely meaningless. Israel has no duty to "care" about anyone. In war, there's certain things that are not permitted intentionally, however. Israel is significantly attempting to meet this scrutiny- with the same attention Hamas intends to suggest Israel is not. This is apparent. Obvious. Discernible to any impartial strategist. That you can't see this is suggestive. That Israel also has this nonspecific emotive, non measurable duty to also care is nonsense. That Israel should be required to... what? Provide militarily protected corridors, militarily protect and ensure these corridors are not impeded by Hamas while the Palestinians make exit, then to bomb Hamas, who will presumably be remaining? While all the nice Local Arabs are safe on these fantasy temp refugee camps, Hamas, who's presumably thinking "Oh, they got us now," waits to then be bombed? Really? Invite Arabs into an Israeli refugee camp? Your entire piece is predicated on this assertion.

Because they don't employ this suicidal formula you laughably offer they are then intentionally bombing children, schools, etc? You have no idea what's going on there.

[arjunadawn]

At the end of the day it is Muslims same same ISIS ,Southern Thailand, Burma, Philippines Indonesia,Nigeria,Mali,Libya,Egypt wherever they exist

Which leads to one conclusion... Muslim find it hard to go without provocations, and their individual

interpretation's of the Quran is the biggest problem when the resort to killing other infidels Muslim,

let the Muslim nation make peace among themselves first before embarking on terrorizing other

peace loving people..

May I add just one different take? If you stop and consider where the notion arose that Muslims who kill others have a defective or contrary view of their religious teachings you'll note it's from western mouthpieces- politicians acting as dangerous apologists for something they've no comprehension of. No Muslims (or rarely) suggest these nonstop attacks around the world are contrary to Islamic teachings. You'll never hear Muslims condemning the verse/citation authorizing vicious terrorism because they cannot. Nearly all the horrific, sensational terrorism seen lately is most definitely not twisted logic or individual views. In nearly all cases when you go to the Koran or Hadith they are most surely finding authorization- unambiguous- for their horrific actions.

Whether it's killing other Muslims, waging eternal war against the Jew until none are left alive on earth, child marriage, or capturing women for sex slavery, they are employing proper orthodoxy for their heinous acts. Like the ability of Ebola to now expand well beyond it's previously contained environment the modern world allows the rapid dissemination of an infected ideology to also spread into unvaccinated, unprepared, and into far flung unaware hosts. This virus will ravage the host, as it has in it's broad sweep across the subcontinent years ago, again slaughtering numerous millions until the host expires, surrender... submission. Islam definition is not Peace, as many are erroneously informed. The definition of Islam is translated properly into surrender/submission. It to this background that Israel must make her choices.

Whatever Israel does now it must not forget this. Israel must be correct every single time.

[doctorproc156]

If Israel really cared about the lives of the palestinians they would set up refugee camps and protect the palestinian civilians whilst they do a full ground invasion of gaza and get rid of Hamas. Instead they are intentionally bombing UN refugee camps and schools and intentionally targeting children (as shown by the children who were killed when they were playing football on the beach). No sane person is saying that Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself, but what it doesn't have a right to do is commit war crimes and massacres of innocent civilian populations.

Again, if Israel would have intentionally target children, there would be 10 of thousands of them

dead by now, Israel is not Boko haram, or ISIS, there will not be humanitarian cease fires,

there will be not electricity, water, fuel and hundreds of supply trucks entering Gaza from Israel,,

They obviously don't want to kill all of them, just kill enough of them to terrorize the Palestinian population into submission. Israel is not like boko haram nor is it a rational country which follows the Geneva convention and the UN rules of war. The Hamas attacks are in no way existential to the existence of Israel, they should be better than this and not bombing UN schools and refugee camps which is unacceptable by any stretch of the imagination. And electricity and water has been cut by the way, the desalination plants and the power plants which power most of Gaza have been destroyed and it will take months to repair and use again. Israel is an irrational acting country.

Your head remains in your profession. What you state about Israel is utterly absurd, largely sensational, and largely meaningless. Israel has no duty to "care" about anyone. In war, there's certain things that are not permitted intentionally, however. Israel is significantly attempting to meet this scrutiny- with the same attention Hamas intends to suggest Israel is not. This is apparent. Obvious. Discernible to any impartial strategist. That you can't see this is suggestive. That Israel also has this nonspecific emotive, non measurable duty to also care is nonsense. That Israel should be required to... what? Provide militarily protected corridors, militarily protect and ensure these corridors are not impeded by Hamas while the Palestinians make exit, then to bomb Hamas, who will presumably be remaining? While all the nice Local Arabs are safe on these fantasy temp refugee camps, Hamas, who's presumably thinking "Oh, they got us now," waits to then be bombed? Really? Invite Arabs into an Israeli refugee camp? Your entire piece is predicated on this assertion.

Because they don't employ this suicidal formula you laughably offer they are then intentionally bombing children, schools, etc? You have no idea what's going on there.

Yes it bloody does have a duty to care about other human lives. What on earth are you talking about? This is literally the entire point of the United Nations and the Geneva convention, to make sure that there aren't any massacres and killing of civilians being committed by any political body on earth. Israel may have eased up a little in the last few days and I can accept that, but the bombing of UN refugee camps and schools is totally unacceptable and should be met with the most severe of sanctions. I have absolutely no problem with Israel hitting any military Hamas targets at all, but bombing civilian safe centers where there is absolutely no militants is beyond ridiculous. The UN even had to tell the IDF 17 times that it was a refugee center and they still hit them anyway. The current administration in Israel is terrorizing the Palestinian population into submission. Oppression and occupation creates monsters and it is Israels blockade and consistent land acquisitions which totally contradict the UN plan for Israel in 1947 and 1967 is what has created these Hamas militants. The same thing happened with Germany after WW1, the treaty of Versailles oppressed the German people until they exploded and that created the monster which was Hitler.

[pumpuy]

We know that the Isrealian frorces are able to carry out very precise air strikes as seen in TV . The destruction of a driving car with a Hamas leader in it on Gaza territory ...!

It is hard to believe that the Israelians destroyed UN refugee camps and schools by " accident " , is it ?

Who are the terrorists in this war ?

Look at this , too :

Give free Video cameras to the Palestinians !

Some holes in Israeli buildings does not justify the massive destruction caused by them .

Edited August 16, 2014 by pumpuy

[ezzra]

Doctorproc 156

The Gaza battle grounds are the homes the schools, the mosques the refuges camps, that's where

the cowardly Hamas fighters are hiding firing from and keeping their rockets, the Hamas leader are deep in the bunkers while the rest of the populations are left to fend for themselves,

1948...

The United Nations recommended dividing Palestine between Arabs and Jews. The plan was published in November 1947. The Arabs immediately rejected partition, because they believed that Palestine was theirs by right. The Plan also appeared to favor the Jews. Although the population of Palestine was about 60 percent Arab, the Jews received more than half of the land and the more fertile areas as well. The Arabs were allotted areas that were mostly desert.

As the British withdrew, the Palestinians fought to gain control of every town. Nevertheless, the United Nations plan was approved and preparations began for the new state of Israel.

1967...

In the early morning of June 5th 1967, the war broke out. Israel made a preemptive strike on 3 armies converging to destroy Israel and thus a 6 day war broke out, good fortune was the order of the day and thos Arab countries lost the war and some of their territories,

If Israel will lay it's arms down there will be no Israel

If the Arabs will lay their arms down, there will be NO MORE WARS...

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and troll posts along with replies deleted.

[pumpuy]

Doctorproc 156

The Gaza battle grounds are the homes the schools, the mosques the refuges camps, that's where

the cowardly Hamas fighters are hiding firing from and keeping their rockets, the Hamas leader are deep in the bunkers while the rest of the populations are left to fend for themselves,

1948...

The United Nations recommended dividing Palestine between Arabs and Jews. The plan was published in November 1947. The Arabs immediately rejected partition, because they believed that Palestine was theirs by right. The Plan also appeared to favor the Jews. Although the population of Palestine was about 60 percent Arab, the Jews received more than half of the land and the more fertile areas as well. The Arabs were allotted areas that were mostly desert.

As the British withdrew, the Palestinians fought to gain control of every town. Nevertheless, the United Nations plan was approved and preparations began for the new state of Israel.

1967...

In the early morning of June 5th 1967, the war broke out. Israel made a preemptive strike on 3 armies converging to destroy Israel and thus a 6 day war broke out, good fortune was the order of the day and thos Arab countries lost the war and some of their territories,

If Israel will lay it's arms down there will be no Israel

" If the Arabs will lay their arms down, there will be NO MORE WARS... "

Is that a Joke ? Wars are about Power over others , suppression and financial interest ...!

What we see is a spiral of violence that is Not about to end any time soon .

There will be no more wars when there are no more countries at all , all people live on one planet without borders ...But before this happens there will be extinction of most of mankind , after this the survivors might wake up , but that is a different story ...

What I always wanted to know : Why did Hitler chose the Jews to kill in his concentration camps ? Why not some other minority ? What was so special about the Jews ? What did they do to deserve this ? ( In the eyes of the Nazis ? )

[forumuser10]

Israel stole the land from Palestinians. And after that, if that was not enough, they expanded on the West Bank that not even the UN agreed upon.

How can the Palestines ever be in peace with a state that stole their land?

If you guys do not believe me, incredible that someone does not, go read upon the topic, there are MANY Jews who themselves admit that Israel is doing something VERY wrong, amongst them Finkelstein, Chomsky, IIan Pappe, Miko Peled etc...

[doctorproc156]

Doctorproc 156

The Gaza battle grounds are the homes the schools, the mosques the refuges camps, that's where

the cowardly Hamas fighters are hiding firing from and keeping their rockets, the Hamas leader are deep in the bunkers while the rest of the populations are left to fend for themselves,

1948...

The United Nations recommended dividing Palestine between Arabs and Jews. The plan was published in November 1947. The Arabs immediately rejected partition, because they believed that Palestine was theirs by right. The Plan also appeared to favor the Jews. Although the population of Palestine was about 60 percent Arab, the Jews received more than half of the land and the more fertile areas as well. The Arabs were allotted areas that were mostly desert.

As the British withdrew, the Palestinians fought to gain control of every town. Nevertheless, the United Nations plan was approved and preparations began for the new state of Israel.

1967...

In the early morning of June 5th 1967, the war broke out. Israel made a preemptive strike on 3 armies converging to destroy Israel and thus a 6 day war broke out, good fortune was the order of the day and thos Arab countries lost the war and some of their territories,

If Israel will lay it's arms down there will be no Israel

If the Arabs will lay their arms down, there will be NO MORE WARS...

This is totally false, there has been absolutely no reports of any rockets being fired from active UN refugee camps and schools. If the Arabs still attack Israel after Israel agrees to the 1947 plan then the whole world should sanction and condemn the Arabs, unfortunately in this situation the Israelis are the ones who are much stronger and the ones who dictates what happens next and they are the ones seizing the land, not the Arabs.

This is exactly what Hitler said about the jews, If you let the jews become powerful, they will destroy us, so might as well exterminate them before they get a chance to. The exact same thing was said by the Hutu interahamwe against the Tutsis during the Rwandan genocide. You cannot punish people for a crime they haven't committed.

[Wat dee]

a very one sided story,

Gaza is controlled by Israel like a big concentration camp,

it controls what goes in and out, they killing people at will,

the world should accept Gaza as a state and stop Israel killing it's people,

it is a shame to think that Israel do now the same to the Palestine people what the

Nazis have done to them, and this without punishment,

something has to be done

To suggest and equate that Israel exterminating Palestinians en mass killing in gas chambers, starvations

and genocide is to show lack of history knowledge, unintelligent, ignorant and dim witted understanding of the issue, 6 million Jews to 2,000 Palestinians? really?

That didn't take long. Let's see how long you can ride with that ticket. Getting old, real old!

[metisdead]

A post using all caps has been removed as well as a reply. Turn off your Caps Lock button when posting.

[joepublic]

Israel is too blinkered under it's current regime to do anything other than continue what it does now. Their strategy is to terrorize a refugee population, in the hope that they will forget the fact that their land was stolen from them, and that they will bow down and live on their knees.

And why blame them?

This strategy has worked for them, from the time the European Ashkenazi Zionists invaded Palestine, to the current day. Its has been amazing successful having managed to silence every government on the planet - if not its peoples - and mandated a double speak so pervasive that it becomes the policy documents of the most powerful nation on earth. No mean achievement.

So we know the answer to "What Will Israel Do Next" - more of the same.

However, the question is "What should Israel do next", and the article written was meaningless. I paraphrase, but simply sending glossy brochures to Gaza showing what life would be like if they rolled over and rejected Hamas is silly in the extreme.

And its second point about Hamas was similarly simplistic.

Hamas is a creation of Israel gone wrong. The Zionist created Hamas to divide and conquer. But while it achieved Israel ends of emasculating the moderate Palestinians ending the possibility that the Zionists would have to give up territory, instead Hamas it became a rallying point for the majority of the people who are humiliated and murdered daily.

So we know that removing Hamas wont solve anything, as Hamas is an extreme response to extreme brutality.

What Zionists and their apologists ignore is that their actions have guaranteed that Israel is on borrowed time.

Time, demographics, geography, and Karma is leading to a point where the Zionist entity cannot survive in its current form. Maybe not this decade, maybe not the next, but soon.

Here is why.

Their "soft power" is declining.People across the world have become much more aware. Nations who could once be ignored are becoming more powerful. Their sole financier has an economic catastrophe building up, and are already alienating other world powers to re-organize to be free of USA control

Their "hard power" is no longer intimidating. The Palestinians and Hezbollah have effectively beaten the IDF in every count, save that of dead bodies. And with drones now penetrating Israeli airspace, almost reaching the nuclear reactor, it just a matter of time before the financial and technology advantage enjoyed will become meaningless.

What Israel should do is wake up and smell the coffee. Unless they deliver justice, by first admitting they stole the land, and then returning to the 1967 borders, with Jerusalem as a shared capital, and financial compensation for right to return, they are going to wipe themselves off the pages of time.

[Wat dee]

Gaza is controlled by Israel like a big concentration camp,it controls what goes in and out

A "concentration camp" with modern shopping malls, luxury hotels, water parks and one of the biggest obesity problems in the world.

There was no blockade until Hamas started attacking Israel after they were elected by the citizens of Gaza.They caused their own problems. There will be no peace until the Palestinians choose moderates to represent them.

Hamas could have chosen peace. Instead, it made Gaza suffer.

Unfortunately, we know the path Hamas chose. Even as Israel was completing the process of withdrawing all its settlers and soldiers from Gaza, Hamas carried out a bus-station bombing in Israel. Then, from late 2005 to early 2006, Hamas conducted multiple attacks on the very crossing points that allowed people and goods to move into and out of Gaza.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hamas-could-have-chosen-peace-instead-it-made-gaza-suffer/2014/08/08/eefd2b48-1d83-11e4-82f9-2cd6fa8da5c4_story.html

Even if you build with gold and diamonds,if there's bars in windows, it's prison!

Rest of the bs, I just let it be.

[pumpuy]

" Jews say they've been harassed for thousands of years."

WHY ? because of what ? What did other people had against the Jewish ages ago already ? What is and was so special about them ?

Do they think that they are the chosen ones , ( by God ? ) to rule the world ? Are they much better than the rest of the world ?

I try not to put people in boxes = all thais are ... , all jews are ... , all americans are ...etc etc , but when I listen in TV that 85% of the Jews in Israel say that they want to finish with the palestinians

" one time for all " , that makes me feel cold in my back ...

[Jingthing]

This thread has predictably become a platform for the usual predictable antisemitic (against Jews) comments to emerge. The recent events in Gaza which yes do bring up legitimate questions about Israeli government policy have made many people feel it has now become social acceptable to express their virulent bigotry against the tiny global minority of the Jewish people. People -- do not wonder why most Jews are happy that the Jewish state of Israel exists and is strong. This irrational ancient hatred of the Jews ... it never goes away ... it lies dormant and then it always emerges. The haters of Jews now come from three major camps:

Islamist based (not only "radicals" either)

European "Christian" based (google "blood libel")

Nazis, Neo and Otherwise (y'all know about that, natch)

No of course not all criticism of Israeli government policy is based on antisemitism (against Jews) . But MUCH of it is. Just read this thread and ANY thread about Israel ... you don't have to look hard.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Jingthing

[arjunadawn]

Doctorproc

It never seems to amaze me how those who oppose Jews/Israelis slide into hitler analogies, in it's varied guises. To the extent that "caring" enters into strategic deliberations of survival, Israel consistently evidences this. Were Hamas not using human shields, hospitals, and other centers for tactical planning and actions Israel could perhaps avoid this response. Yes, there should always be deliberations in how to lessen useless suffering, and I assert Israel often attempts such actions. Often.

The land you refer to is land which enabled the near extinction of Israel previously and was captured in war. I personally think there should be zero Israeli settlements there until pending final status agreements. But to return that land now when 100% of the local Arab sentiment is the total destruction of every Jew on earth, and a tactical inability to defend previous borders with advances in modern warfare, is absurd. Caring? Are you remotely aware of what is actually going on here? On both sides? Dispassionately? Personally, I think there's enough real blame to share. I do. But the Arab hatred goes all the way back in time to Ishmael. It's hardly only related to lands that the local Palestinian Arabs voluntarily evacuated years who when promised by the Arab states they could return after destroying the nascent state of Israel, and losing!

[arjunadawn]

Israel must stop believing that it can survive on the land of Palestine which it robbed from the Palestinian people. It cannot! Just look at the map. Does anyone think that the traitors who now rule Arab countries will be there for ever? No, sooner or later the Muslims would rise up, throw their leaders to the dogs, tell the Islam-hating West to take a hike and march towards Jerusesalm with ultra modern weapons like what Iran is now buiding and send the Zionists packing to wherever they came from.

There was never a State of Palestine. The rest of your post is also nonsense.

There should have been cause they are/were living there.

God promised this land!!?? Wake up there is no god! Worst excuses of 20th. century.

I don't disagree. It's seems history should have afforded those with long ties to such a land some statehood over millennia; but there really wasn't since 2000 years ago. I also agree this whole god nonsense utterly ruins a world I'd prefer to live in. I just feel frustrated that I can't even imagine a way to resolve this but my mind sees all kinds of ways this can get much worse.

[CBR250]

What I always wanted to know : Why did Hitler chose the Jews to kill in his concentration camps ? Why not some other minority ? What was so special about the Jews ? What did they do to deserve this ? ( In the eyes of the Nazis ? )

Hitler didn't just choose the Jews - he was quite happy murdering gays and gypsies in the concentration camps too. But there were many, many more Jews than these other categories, and they were a far easier target. By the time the concentration camps were in full swing, most Germans had been convinced that Jews were the greatest enemy of Germany. They wouldn't protest too loudly even if they suspected something was amiss.

I have no expertise in German modern history, but from my superficial reading I believe that, basically, the Nazis central tenet in their propaganda was that as "Aryans", they were superior to other people on the planet.

The Nazis believed that they had a richer culture, better education system, smarter scientists, braver soldiers etc etc.

Jews were seen as less than human, so the "final solution" - the murder of millions of Jews - was therefore not inhumane as such. The use of intensive propaganda by Goebbels et al convinced the German population of the animal-like nature of Jews. Propaganda was also used to justify the persecution and attacks on Jews by Nazi thugs, as the government was merely defending Germany from the terrible "Judeo-Bolshevik threat". Because Germany was under attack by these damaging Jewish influences, the government had no choice but to fight back - to virtually declare war on Jews.

The Holocaust Encyclopaedia notes:

"...propaganda was ... essential to motivating those who implemented the mass murder .......... It also served to secure the acquiescence of millions of others -- as bystanders -- to racially targeted persecution and mass murder."

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005274

Interesting, eh? The parallel with what has just happened in Gaza is uncanny. Exactly the same justifications, the same use of propaganda - even the same arguments about "defending the State from the threat of..." . Of course Israel's actions in Gaza do not compare in terms of the intensity, nor the magnitude, of the Holocaust. But the dynamics of the situation: of developing a hatred toward a bogeymen (Hamas) among the general population to secure their acquiescence, of portraying the enemy as "sub-human" (in modern parlance - "terrorists", "Muslims") , of pandering to fears of being "wiped out". These dynamics are the same in today's Israel as they were under Goebbels in the Nazi regime. Or Stalin in the USSR. Pol Pot in Cambodia. Propaganda is a key weapon of war, and allows the most terrible crimes to be committed for the flimsiest of excuses.

[pumpuy]

God clapped his hands , and that was the" Big Bang " , everything started with . ( If there is or was somethig like a god ...? °

Now there are trillions of Galaxies and " God " has no time to care for the people on planet earth anymore ...!

If we survive or not , is nobody's fault , but ours ...!

Better keep the planet in good condition , without this planet we will not survive !

I doubt that we will get a second chance ...?

This Post was meant as an answer to an earlier post above , I somehow did not manage to post this as a direct reply , sorry ...

Edited August 16, 2014 by pumpuy

[Wat dee]

This thread has predictably become a platform for the usual predictable antisemitic (against Jews) comments to emerge. The recent events in Gaza which yes do bring up legitimate questions about Israeli government policy have made many people feel it has now become social acceptable to express their virulent bigotry against the tiny global minority of the Jewish people. People -- do not wonder why most Jews are happy that the Jewish state of Israel exists and is strong. This irrational ancient hatred of the Jews ... it never goes away ... it lies dormant and then it always emerges. The haters of Jews now come from three major camps:

Islamist based (not only "radicals" either)

European "Christian" based (google "blood libel")

Nazis, Neo and Otherwise (y'all know about that, natch)

No of course not all criticism of Israeli government policy is based on antisemitism (against Jews) . But MUCH of it is. Just read this thread and ANY thread about Israel ... you don't have to look hard.

Standard answer if really can't answer.

All criticism or arguments against jews or Israel is hate and antisemitism.

"Irrational ancient hatred" Maybe taking some responsibility of your own action, and changing your own behavior might change things.

[Jingthing]

What I always wanted to know : Why did Hitler chose the Jews to kill in his concentration camps ? Why not some other minority ? What was so special about the Jews ? What did they do to deserve this ? ( In the eyes of the Nazis ? )

Hitler didn't just choose the Jews - he was quite happy murdering gays and gypsies in the concentration camps too. But there were many, many more Jews than these other categories, and they were a far easier target. By the time the concentration camps were in full swing, most Germans had been convinced that Jews were the greatest enemy of Germany. They wouldn't protest too loudly even if they suspected something was amiss.

I have no expertise in German modern history, but from my superficial reading I believe that, basically, the Nazis central tenet in their propaganda was that as "Aryans", they were superior to other people on the planet.

The Nazis believed that they had a richer culture, better education system, smarter scientists, braver soldiers etc etc.

Jews were seen as less than human, so the "final solution" - the murder of millions of Jews - was therefore not inhumane as such. The use of intensive propaganda by Goebbels et al convinced the German population of the animal-like nature of Jews. Propaganda was also used to justify the persecution and attacks on Jews by Nazi thugs, as the government was merely defending Germany from the terrible "Judeo-Bolshevik threat". Because Germany was under attack by these damaging Jewish influences, the government had no choice but to fight back - to virtually declare war on Jews.

The Holocaust Encyclopaedia notes:

"...propaganda was ... essential to motivating those who implemented the mass murder .......... It also served to secure the acquiescence of millions of others -- as bystanders -- to racially targeted persecution and mass murder."

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005274

Interesting, eh? The parallel with what has just happened in Gaza is uncanny. Exactly the same justifications, the same use of propaganda - even the same arguments about "defending the State from the threat of..." . Of course Israel's actions in Gaza do not compare in terms of the intensity, nor the magnitude, of the Holocaust. But the dynamics of the situation: of developing a hatred toward a bogeymen (Hamas) among the general population to secure their acquiescence, of portraying the enemy as "sub-human" (in modern parlance - "terrorists", "Muslims") , of pandering to fears of being "wiped out". These dynamics are the same in today's Israel as they were under Goebbels in the Nazi regime. Or Stalin in the USSR. Pol Pot in Cambodia. Propaganda is a key weapon of war, and allows the most terrible crimes to be committed for the flimsiest of excuses.

There is no equivalency between modern Israeli government policies and Nazi Germany. I know many of the so called "anti-Zionist" keep trying to push this BIG LIE but that's what it is, a BIG LIE. Yes, many people, including me, think strongly that suggesting such an equivalency is definitely not benign, and definitely is reflective of an antisemitic (against Jews) POV. Face it folks. Wake up. Much of this BS "anti-Zionist" propaganda is very poorly disguised Jew hatred. Go ahead, criticize Israeli policies. But stop with the Jews are Nazi garbage. It is really hate speech.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Jingthing

[Pakboong]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Israel stole the land from Palestinians. And after that, if that was not enough, they expanded on the West Bank that not even the UN agreed upon.

How can the Palestines ever be in peace with a state that stole their land?

If you guys do not believe me, incredible that someone does not, go read upon the topic, there are MANY Jews who themselves admit that Israel is doing something VERY wrong, amongst them Finkelstein, Chomsky, IIan Pappe, Miko Peled etc...

I can be as anti-Israel as anybody but the land issue is silly ancient history and is not relevant any more than the US taking land from the Indians or the Mexicans or anyone else for that matter. The British were already squatting on the land that was never theirs so there is no reason why the Israelis can't do the same. There really is no historical standard for such as that and the subject can get really boring very quickly.

There have been many crimes on both sides and the right to be a terrorist was not an original Arab idea as far as Palestine goes. In a tit for tat story many Palestinians consider the deir Yassin Massacre as their start point and perhaps the Israelis often consider the Hebron massacre as their modern start point. There are many potential start points and none of it really matters. It only matters what happens tomorrow. These two are among many attacks that have been carried out but you can go back 100s of years and find many more.

[arjunadawn]

This thread has predictably become a platform for the usual predictable antisemitic (against Jews) comments to emerge. The recent events in Gaza which yes do bring up legitimate questions about Israeli government policy have made many people feel it has now become social acceptable to express their virulent bigotry against the tiny global minority of the Jewish people. People -- do not wonder why most Jews are happy that the Jewish state of Israel exists and is strong. This irrational ancient hatred of the Jews ... it never goes away ... it lies dormant and then it always emerges. The haters of Jews now come from three major camps:

Islamist based (not only "radicals" either)

European "Christian" based (google "blood libel")

Nazis, Neo and Otherwise (y'all know about that, natch)

No of course not all criticism of Israeli government policy is based on antisemitism (against Jews) . But MUCH of it is. Just read this thread and ANY thread about Israel ... you don't have to look hard.

In regard to another post I asked myself "Hrmm, why are the Jews hated for so long?" I quickly assembled my thoughts and your post clarified them. As Jung and other brilliant minds have noted the collective nature of human civilization does create deeply seated archetypes that persistent long after rationality has been applied to consider. Whether it's the dark, snakes, etc., people have a tendency to have irrational responses that are based on archaic predilections, or perceptions.

Jews were first bastardized by Rome (the parent of much western thought) thousands of years ago. This was later reinforced by Islamic deeply seated resentment over Ischmaels ouster and dis inheritance. This was enshrined in disdain and mandate in the Islamic teachings. Coinciding with this era Christians (of Typically roman/Byzantium lineage) debated the fault for the suffering of their Christ. It would have been wholly improper even during the era of Constantine to suggest Pontius Pilate killed the Christ. Thus the Jews committed the deicide. Ironically, and either way, had the Christ not died, in this very fashion, Christianity and thus salvation would never have occurred for all the Jew haters subsequently born.

In this manner distasteful archetypes emerges and the scapegoats needed in every generation and religious inculcation cemented Jew disdain into often outrageous but frequently subtle biases across the Western world. The Islamic world needs little archetypical precursors; hatred and vile are spewed at the Jews multiple times a daily throughout the pulpits of the Islamic world.

It's against this backdrop that many of you arrive here today, secure in your one sided comprehensive knowledge of the Jewish/Arab equation. At least have the self clarity to grasp which thoughts are your own and which are inherited.