What Israel must do now

[Seastallion]

I'm not going to respond to the blind pro-Israelis here. I'm not going to support the blind pro-Palestinians here.

The article makes more sense than anything I've read in years. Give Palestine back to the Palestinians by crippling Hammas diplomatically and in reality. Go the route of the Arab Peace initiative, with Abbas.

All it needs is Israel's agreement.

BUT! Will Israel agree?

The strategy the article talks about is wise. Just need Israel to stop it's criminal activities via this route, and Hammas will come to an end.

[Ulysses G.]

All it needs is Israel's agreement.

No. That is incorrect. Hamas is half of the Palestinian government and getting rid of them is a pipe-dream at this point in time It makes no difference, at all, what Israel "agrees to" until Hamas are actually gone.

[7by7]

The more Palestinians are killed and maimed by Israel's disproportionate responses to Hamas bombings, the more support for Hamas will grow among the victims of that response; the Palestinians.

This surely must be obvious to anyone except the terminally stupid.

I do not believe that the Israeli government are terminally stupid; so what is their motivation and reasoning behind their disproportionate response.

They want Hamas gone.

Well, Hamas are not going to go away, and the more the Israeli government try to bomb them out of existence, killing and maiming thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians in the process, the stronger Hamas will become.

The title of this topic is "What Israel must do now."

As already said, one step would be to give equal rights to it's own non Jewish nationals; then the Palestinians may trust them more.

But the first step, I believe, is for Israel to take the moral high ground and declare that even if Hamas break the current truce, regardless of how many missiles Hamas fire into Israel; they will not respond militarily.

Then the Israeli government should declare that they are ready and willing to sit down face to face with any and all Palestinian representatives, including Hamas, for negotiations without any preconditions.

As Winston Churchill once, reportedly, said "To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war."

Edited August 16, 2014 by 7by7

[Ulysses G.]

The more Palestinians are killed and maimed by Israel's disproportionate responses to Hamas bombings, the more support for Hamas will grow among the victims of that response; the Palestinians.

What is a "proportionate" response to tens of thousand of rockets over decades and what other country would put up with it?

The Disproportionate Nonsense

Disproportionate is a word seemingly used only when Israel defends herself. Did the United States respond proportionately to Japan following Pearl Harbor? Did the British respond proportionately to the German blitzkrieg? When a country is attacked, the response should deter the attacking nation, entity or any other one else forever more.

International pressure for a cease-fire will only succeed in protecting Hamas from certain destruction and another war on another day. A disproportionate response from Israel may guarantee no more war on any more days.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/11/the-disproportionate-nonsense/

[7by7]

A quote from a website described by former Senator Joseph Lieberman, himself a long time outspoken supporter of the Israeli government, as an “independent truth telling advocate for the Jewish people and Israel"

I strongly doubt the "independent" and the "truth telling" bits; but "advocate for Israel" is certainly correct!

Until and unless all parties agree to talks without any preconditions, the slaughter will continue.

Israel can take the first step to such talks by offering them.

There are many precedents in recent history to show that this approach can and has worked to bring peace in troubled lands and terrorist organisations into the mainstream.

If Hamas and other Palestinian representatives refuse such an offer, then they are obviously to be condemned.

The more Palestinians killed and maimed by Israel, no matter what justification Israel use, the more support for Hamas among Palestinians will grow. I really cannot understand why the Israeli government and it's supporters cannot see that.

The only explanation is that they don't want peace; they merely want revenge.

Edited August 16, 2014 by 7by7

[Ulysses G.]

A quote from a website described by former Senator Joseph Lieberman as an independent truth telling advocate for the Jewish people and Israel"

Yeah. So? Do you have point? I'm pretty sure that no one on a pro-Hamas website is going to defend Israel or point out how foolish a "proportionate" response to tens of thousand of rockets over decades would be.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

Yes, I do have a point; read the whole post.

BTW, the only bit I altered in my edit was to insert "himself a long time outspoken supporter of the Israeli government" to describe Joseph Lieberman.

I'd find a similar quote from an independent source far more convincing.

Edited August 16, 2014 by 7by7

[Scott]

Posts and replies removed.

[Johpa]

Israel has to to leave the occupied territories! As long as they continue to steal the land of others there will be never ever peace. The more Palestinians they deliberately kill the stronger Hamas is becoming in the Palestinian community and the more hate is being sawn. If Israel does not stop their human rights abuses this conflict is going to go on for many more generations.

You are correct. Israel must leave the territories. And indeed they have left the majority of the territories and there is still need for further retreat, most direly in Hebron, and to desist building new settlemnets. On the other hand the Arabs must also reciprocate by signing treaties that recognize Israel and they must also stop educating their young people to hate. Peace is always a two-way street. And I see you are beginning to realize the strategy of Hamas, that they invite civilian casualties in order to gain politically. In Gaza, Hamas is the problem and not Israel. Those who focus their discontent solely upon Israel, all the foolish marchers in London and Paris as well as sympathizers here on ThaiVisa are the ones encouraging the Hamas strategy of sacrificing civilians for political gain. The blood of these civilians is upon their hands as well.

[7by7]

Hamas leaders have said in the past that they are willing to co exist with Israel.

Current status of the (Hamas) Charter

Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center, that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons".[93] Hamas do not use the Charter on their website and prefer to use their election manifesto to put forth their agenda.[94][95] Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.[93]

British diplomat and former British ambassador to the United Nations Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006".[96] Mohammed Nimer of American University comments on the Charter, "It's a tract meant to mobilize support and it should be amended.... It projects anger, not vision."[97] Ahmed Yousef, an adviser to Ismail Haniyeh, has questioned the use of the charter by Israel and its supporters to brand Hamas as a fundamentalist, terrorist, racist, anti-Semitic organization and claims that they have taken parts of the charter out of context for propaganda purposes. He claims that they dwell on the charter and ignore that Hamas has changed its views with time

[Ulysses G.]

Hamas leaders have said in the past that they are willing to co exist with Israel.

They have said all kinds of things, but they have never renounced their charter calling for the destruction on Israel. They are all talk - nothing more - and they contradict themselves constantly.

Wikipedia is lousy source. Here is something they left out, from one of the sources they listed, as it did not fit their spin:

"Its not clear how the Cairo reports of Hamas's new non-violence policy square with the blood-curdling December 14 speech in Gaza City by Hamas-Gaza leader Ismail Haniyeh, vowing never to recognize Israel and calling for an army to liberate Jerusalem. CNN correspondent Kevin Flowers strongly implies that Haniyeh and Meshaal are working at cross-purposes and Haniyeh hasnt accepted Meshaals strategic shift."

Edited August 16, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[CBR250]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Israel stole the land from Palestinians. And after that, if that was not enough, they expanded on the West Bank that not even the UN agreed upon.

How can the Palestines ever be in peace with a state that stole their land?

If you guys do not believe me, incredible that someone does not, go read upon the topic, there are MANY Jews who themselves admit that Israel is doing something VERY wrong, amongst them Finkelstein, Chomsky, IIan Pappe, Miko Peled etc...

I can be as anti-Israel as anybody but the land issue is silly ancient history and is not relevant any more than the US taking land from the Indians or the Mexicans or anyone else for that matter. The British were already squatting on the land that was never theirs so there is no reason why the Israelis can't do the same. There really is no historical standard for such as that and the subject can get really boring very quickly.

The problem is, the land issue isn't ancient history. It is about tomorrow. Because land is still being stolen today - this is not a 1948 event. The Israeli government has approved thousands more developments in land that had been earmarked for the Palestinian state in every major peace process of the past decade. If Israel keeps stealing the land, sure, in another few years there will be none left. Then your argument will be valid. But in the meantime, as the Native Americans did following the British invasion, the Palestinians will continue to fight to keep what little they have left.

[Wat dee]

Israel has to to leave the occupied territories! As long as they continue to steal the land of others there will be never ever peace. The more Palestinians they deliberately kill the stronger Hamas is becoming in the Palestinian community and the more hate is being sawn. If Israel does not stop their human rights abuses this conflict is going to go on for many more generations.

You are correct. Israel must leave the territories. And indeed they have left the majority of the territories and there is still need for further retreat, most direly in Hebron, and to desist building new settlemnets. On the other hand the Arabs must also reciprocate by signing treaties that recognize Israel and they must also stop educating their young people to hate. Peace is always a two-way street. And I see you are beginning to realize the strategy of Hamas, that they invite civilian casualties in order to gain politically. In Gaza, Hamas is the problem and not Israel. Those who focus their discontent solely upon Israel, all the foolish marchers in London and Paris as well as sympathizers here on ThaiVisa are the ones encouraging the Hamas strategy of sacrificing civilians for political gain. The blood of these civilians is upon their hands as well.

"Stop educating their young people to hare" No need for that. Israeli forces doing pretty good job themselves.

Anyone spending two hours watching youtube videos, pretty much gets the idea where the hate comes from!

[poweratradio]

I would like to mention that there is a deliberate confusion in this article aimed at confusing the readers.

HAMAS is not Palestinians. Palestinians are not HAMAS. There cannot and never will be any agreement between HAMAS and Israel.

Americans, Egyptians and any other 'mediators' in this conflict are incidental.

Israel has to agree to die or to exterminate HAMAS. No other way to end violence in Gaza. Sorry.

Somehow I doubt Israelis will agree to die collectively to please HAMAS or 'politically correct' Western opinion.

You are so wrong about Hamas.... Hamas is a political party voted into power by the Palestinians of Gaza much to the chagrin of the governments in the area and the world. You will also notice that these wars seem to erupt both by Hamas and Hezbollah during the fair weather seasons. They both are basically cowards preferring only to fire missiles knowing full well the reply will be devastating but opens the doors for more aid and rebuilding which takes everyone's direction away from new tunnel building and new arms shipments with longer range rockets from the world's nefarious arms dealer. Ridiculous uneducated no-minds at work here and the worlds brightest negotiators have to try and talk reason to the BIG STUPID HAMAS

[7by7]

The Hamas leadership is split on the issue of co existence, and other issues.; but Hamas are not going to go away. If Israel really wants peace, they must talk to them.

I posted earlier

The title of this topic is "What Israel must do now."

As already said, one step would be to give equal rights to it's own non Jewish nationals; then the Palestinians may trust them more.

But the first step, I believe, is for Israel to take the moral high ground and declare that even if Hamas break the current truce, regardless of how many missiles Hamas fire into Israel; they will not respond militarily.

Then the Israeli government should declare that they are ready and willing to sit down face to face with any and all Palestinian representatives, including Hamas, for negotiations without any preconditions.

As Winston Churchill once, reportedly, said "To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war."

Until and unless all parties agree to talks without any preconditions, the slaughter will continue.

Israel can take the first step to such talks by offering them.

There are many precedents in recent history to show that this approach can and has worked to bring peace in troubled lands and terrorist organisations into the mainstream.

If Hamas and other Palestinian representatives refuse such an offer, then they are obviously to be condemned.

No one from the pro Israeli side has suggested any reason why Israel should not make such an offer.

I can think of only one; Israel doesn't want peace with the Palestinians at all; they only want to take over all that remains of Palestinian lands, evict the current occupiers and give the land to more Israeli settlements. (For Jews only; see earlier.)

I sincerely hope that I am wrong in this and that the Israeli government prove me so by offering such negotiations.

Edited August 16, 2014 by 7by7

[CBR250]

Israel has to to leave the occupied territories! As long as they continue to steal the land of others there will be never ever peace. The more Palestinians they deliberately kill the stronger Hamas is becoming in the Palestinian community and the more hate is being sawn. If Israel does not stop their human rights abuses this conflict is going to go on for many more generations.

You are correct. Israel must leave the territories. And indeed they have left the majority of the territories and there is still need for further retreat, most direly in Hebron, and to desist building new settlemnets. On the other hand the Arabs must also reciprocate by signing treaties that recognize Israel and they must also stop educating their young people to hate. Peace is always a two-way street.

Good to see you supporting peace rather than justifying war. Yes, Israel must leave the land it has invaded - and I assume that you also support the return of the land Israel has stolen on the West Bank and in East Jerusalem. Not going back too far, mind. I don't expect the impossible. Probably the maps from the failed Annapolis peace talks could be dragged out again.

And the "Arabs" already tried to recognise Israel. it was only in May this year that the new Unity government - including both Fatah and Hamas - announced that it would recognise Israel's right to exist. It's on record everywhere if you care to check. Just to be clear - this is Hamas we are talking about - they supported this initiative for peace. The problem was, while you probably approved of this initiative (I did too), Netnyahu absolutely hated it. Israel demanded that the US and the EU refuse to recognise the Unity government. They told Netanyahu et al to bugger off, of course, since this was a great chance to move towards peace. Perhaps you can explain why he was so determined to NOT have Hamas and Fatah sign up to recognising the existence of Israel? Why from that moment on did he looke for ways to undermine the initiative? I get so frustrated at the double-speak and and dishonesty of Israeli governments. They deliberately undermine any chance for peace, then blame someone else.

As you say, peace is a two way street, although the big kid on the block - Israel - always has the larger responsibility for change. In this case, Israel has clearly started a war when peace was an option. And I don't think Palestine educates its young people to hate. It doesn't need to - Israel is the best teacher for that. If someone came and killed your brothers and sisters, your extended family, destroyed your home, your school, the heath clinic you used, your chance for study and employment, your freedom to move more than 10kms from your birthplace, you might harbour a few negative feelings too. I admire the forbearance of the Palestinians in being prepared to seek peace in the face of such provocation.

Edited August 16, 2014 by CBR250

[Johpa]

You are correct. Israel must leave the territories. And indeed they have left the majority of the territories and there is still need for further retreat, most direly in Hebron, and to desist building new settlemnets. On the other hand the Arabs must also reciprocate by signing treaties that recognize Israel and they must also stop educating their young people to hate. Peace is always a two-way street. And I see you are beginning to realize the strategy of Hamas, that they invite civilian casualties in order to gain politically. In Gaza, Hamas is the problem and not Israel. Those who focus their discontent solely upon Israel, all the foolish marchers in London and Paris as well as sympathizers here on ThaiVisa are the ones encouraging the Hamas strategy of sacrificing civilians for political gain. The blood of these civilians is upon their hands as well.

"Stop educating their young people to hare" No need for that. Israeli forces doing pretty good job themselves.

Anyone spending two hours watching youtube videos, pretty much gets the idea where the hate comes from!

And for those willing to go beyond YouTube for information, they will see that formal education throughout the Arab world instills hatred in those too young, at least to those of us who are fans of Jean Piaget, to have any clue as to what is happening in the broader context. Again, and I emphasize, any hopes for peace is a two-way street. Both sides contain elements in the wrong, Only the simpletons see the problem as solely the Israelis. There needs to be change from both camps.

[Johpa]

Israel has to to leave the occupied territories! As long as they continue to steal the land of others there will be never ever peace. The more Palestinians they deliberately kill the stronger Hamas is becoming in the Palestinian community and the more hate is being sawn. If Israel does not stop their human rights abuses this conflict is going to go on for many more generations.

You are correct. Israel must leave the territories. And indeed they have left the majority of the territories and there is still need for further retreat, most direly in Hebron, and to desist building new settlemnets. On the other hand the Arabs must also reciprocate by signing treaties that recognize Israel and they must also stop educating their young people to hate. Peace is always a two-way street.

Good to see you supporting peace rather than justifying war. Yes, Israel must leave the land it has invaded - and I assume that you also support the return of the land Israel has stolen on the West Bank and in East Jerusalem. Not going back too far, mind. I don't expect the impossible. Probably the maps from the failed Annapolis peace talks could be dragged out again.

And the "Arabs" already tried to recognise Israel. it was only in May this year that the new Unity government - including both Fatah and Hamas - announced that it would recognise Israel's right to exist. It's on record everywhere if you care to check. Just to be clear - this is Hamas we are talking about - they supported this initiative for peace. The problem was, while you probably approved of this initiative (I did too), Netnyahu absolutely hated it. Israel demanded that the US and the EU refuse to recognise the Unity government. They told Netanyahu et al to bugger off, of course, since this was a great chance to move towards peace. Perhaps you can explain why he was so determined to NOT have Hamas and Fatah sign up to recognising the existence of Israel? Why from that moment on did he looke for ways to undermine the initiative? I get so frustrated at the double-speak and and dishonesty of Israeli governments. They deliberately undermine any chance for peace, then blame someone else.

As you say, peace is a two way street, although the big kid on the block - Israel - always has the larger responsibility for change. In this case, Israel has clearly started a war when peace was an option. And I don't think Palestine educates its young people to hate. It doesn't need to - Israel is the best teacher for that. If someone came and killed your brothers and sisters, your extended family, destroyed your home, your school, the heath clinic you used, your chance for study and employment, your freedom to move more than 10kms from your birthplace, you might harbour a few negative feelings too. I admire the forbearance of the Palestinians in being prepared to seek peace in the face of such provocation.

I have always supported peace, but support based upon pragmatism and not based upon biblical or historical claims to land. I have always maintained that as the more powerful of the two sides that it behooves Israel to take greater risks to move towards peace. And I have always maintained criticism of Netanyahu from the beginning of this recent conflict. Israel has returned the land taken from Jordan during the 1967 war as well as retreated from Gaza which they took from Egypt also in 1967. So I am not sure what your point is there. The question of Jerusalem is far too complex and there are just some issues that must wait. The final status of Jerusalem will have to await a later generation unless, just being pragmatic again, you would want to even further delay the resolution of far wider regional significance than the issue of a single city.

Hamas has never recognized Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State. It is just ridiculous semantics that you are falling for. Israel can not exist as such to Hamas. Hamas remains an immeditate existential threat to Israel. Israel can no more exist relative to Hamas than can the Christian minorities of Iraq can exist in relation to ISIS. Part of your frustrations with the Israeli government results from your failure to appreciate what Hamas truly represents to Israel. The other parts of your frustrations with the Israeli government I too share.

As to who started this war we may never know. Clearly Netanyahu's overbearing thuggish response to the deaths of the three Israeli teens was a factor. And clearly Hamas's response with the barrage of shelling and broken ceasefires was as much a contrbuting factor to the tragic end results. But to note that both sides had contingency plans for this war is a moot point as factions always have such contingency plans. The contingency plans do not, by themselves, demonstrate a desire to start a war. I too admire both the Palestinians and the Israelis who seek peace given the recent history between the two sides. I just don't see many such people to admire.

[Jingthing]

...

Hamas has never recognized Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State. It is just ridiculous semantics that you are falling for. Israel can not exist as such to Hamas. Hamas remains an immeditate existential threat to Israel. Israel can no more exist relative to Hamas than can the Christian minorities of Iraq can exist in relation to ISIS. Part of your frustrations with the Israeli government results from your failure to appreciate what Hamas truly represents to Israel. The other parts of your frustrations with the Israeli government I too share.

...

Yep, and as bad as Hamas is, it could easily be even WORSE.

Again, the "progressives" view the Israel-Palestinian conflict through pie in the sky western idealistic eyes failing to account for the nature of the Islamic Jihadist forces not only in Palestine, but across the Islamic world.

Just follow the news in the wider Islamic/Middle Eastern world which for better or worse Israel is situated in.

I know many of the Israel demonizers have openly stated their wish that Israel never existed and shouldn't exist now, that the Jews there should just go away now.

Well, even if that hateful anti-Jewish dream came true, things in the Middle East would still be a cauldron of bloody conflict. Don't need any Jews for that.

But many of Hamas’ jihadi fellow travelers in Gaza don’t have the same interests. For most, their sole goal is to fight — not just against Israel, but to spread Islamist rule across the whole world. That’s why, in the thick of the conflict on July 28, outgoing U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency head Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn said ousting Hamas could bring on “something like ISIS,” the radical Islamist group now conquering swaths of Iraq and Syria.

“If Hamas were destroyed and gone, we would probably end up with something much worse,” Flynn said, according to Reuters. “The region would end up with something much worse.”

Read more: http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/204185/better-the-enemy-you-know-gazas-other-terror-gr/#ixzz3AaaTIPu5

Edited August 16, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jay Sata]

Israel is facing big problems with both world opinion and funding from the USA.

Even the Jerusalem Post has got involved with having to justify a half page advert for humanitarian aid to Gaza.

Meanwhile the warmonger Netanyahu has to face facts that the bombs and missile supply route might dry up soon.

This from a UK newspaper ,the Independent, today...
'Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahus office has denied reports of a crisis in US-Israeli relations over the Gaza war, after the state department confirmed a new policy of placing weapons shipments to the Jewish state under closer scrutiny due to concern over the large number of Palestinian civilian Israeli officials, speaking to the liberal Israeli newspaper, Haaretz, confirmed that delivery of a consignment of Hellfire missiles, which are fitted to helicopters, has been blocked by the US since late last month as part of the American decision to impose limits on the transfer of weaponry that could be used in Gaza. The suspension, the first of its kind in more than three decades, was first reported in an article in The Wall Street Journal on Thursday.

The article added that the Obama administration was convinced Israel had not done enough to minimise civilian casualties and that its concerns included the use of artillery rather than more precise weaponry in the densely populated coastal enclave.

Israel says Hamas uses the civilian population as human shields and thus bears sole responsibility for the casualties. It sees US criticism over the Gaza toll as falling short of the unqualified support it believes it deserves in combatting a terrorist enemy.Mr Netanyahus spokesman, Mark Regev, said he had no knowledge of the Hellfire missiles being suspended. We made a request and expect it to be fulfilled. There is no crisis, on the contrary the prime minister used the word terrific a few days ago to describe the support we have received from the US. Obviously our positions arent always identical but we are bound by common strategic interests and common values. We have a unique partnership.

Politicians and analysts are less sanguine and say relations have deteriorated sharply during the Gaza fighting. There is a worrying trend and we cant allow it to continue, said the finance minister and Yesh Atid party head Yair Lapid. Our relations with the US are a strategic asset that must be maintained.

The sense is the Americans are totally disgusted with Netanyahu, says Galia Golan, a political scientist at Interdisciplinary Centre in Herzliya, near Tel Aviv. Its something close to a crisis but it will be patched up because the administration can only go so far due to popular support for Israel and the fact there will be too much pressure from congress. Likely 2016 presidential hopeful Hilary Clinton this week threw her support behind the Netanyahu government, blaming Hamas for the civilian casualties and endorsing continued Israeli security control over the occupied West Bank.

The Obama administrations concern over civilian casualties came to the fore after Israel launched its ground operation in Gaza on 17 July. As Israeli shells hit UN schools in Gaza that were being used as shelters for those who fled their homes, the US sought to distance itself from its allys actions.

On 3 August the US said it was appalled by the disgraceful shelling of a UN school in Rafah that killed 10 people. The army said it targeted three militants on a motorbike outside the school. But tensions over the Palestinian issue, which have persisted since Mr Obama took office, pressing for a freeze the illegal Israeli settlement building in the West Bank. Continued Israeli settlement construction and creeping annexation of the West Bank by Mr Netanyahu was seen by the Americans as one of the reasons for the failure of Mr Kerrys efforts to broker an Israeli-Palestinian agreement. Israeli analysts say that also fuelling the distrust was Mr Netanyahus backing for Mr Obamas rival, Mitt Romney in the last US presidential contest.

Meanwhile, Mr Obama is seen by the Israeli government as being weak and misguided according to Efraim Inbar, director of the Besa Center for Strategic Studies at Bar Ilan University. From attempting to engage Iran, to failing to back up a threat to use force against Syria over use of chemical weapons, to turning a cold shoulder to Egypts Abdel-Fattah al-Sisi to enlisting Turkey and Qatar for the Gaza ceasefire, this administration simply does not understand who are their allies and who are their enemies. Its strategic confusion.

But Mr Inbar believes that President Obama cannot undo close Israeli-US ties. The relationship is anchored in a long history and there is lots of domestic American support for Israel. We will survive Obama.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-rift-the-sense-is-that-americans-are-disgusted-with-netanyahu-9672584.html

Edited August 17, 2014 by Scott

[arjunadawn]

I do not have a rooting interest in this seemingly intractable mess, which I, like many around the world, wish would simply evaporate before more innocents are killed. (Little chance of that...) However, the notion put forward by the OP, that Israel is somehow carefully avoiding all possible collateral damage, seems rather a cruel joke, as the destruction of hospitals, homes, and factories illustrates. I offer this post to point out different views of several aspects of the situation.

UN officials have said that the actions of the Israeli military are effectively war crimes (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/world-disgrace-gaza-un-shelter-school-israel ). Even a UN school was shelled, among at least half a dozen strikes on UN facilities (http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-strike-near-un-school-20140803-story.html ) and 9 UN relief workers have been killed.(http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-mourns-loss-ninth-staff-gaza). Amnesty cites mounting evidence that health workers have been targeted (http://commondreams.org/newswire/2014/08/07/mounting-evidence-deliberate-attacks-gaza-health-workers-israeli-army ).

International scholars, many of whom are Jewish, have denounced the enforced isolation of Gaza (http://truth-out.org/speakout/item/25030-international-scholars-statement-on-gaza ), saying The siege of Gaza alone is a stark violation of international law. Operation Protective Edge, whose impact has fallen almost entirely on the civilian population, is an even more egregious violation.

It is not just scholars. People around the world are wondering why the brutal collective punishment of Gazans is allowed to continue, and even the Israeli regimes main enabler, the US, is now seemingly on the verge of stopping missile shipments.

People with an open mind who are truly interested in peace will have their doubts about the official narrative promoted by the Israeli government and prominent actors in the Western press. The history of the conflict has vile transgressions by both sides. But if one examines the facts, it seems pretty darn doubtful that the Palestinian side was responsible for this latest round of horror. On the contrary.

In the recent series of events, Hamas launched its very first rockets on July 7, in retaliation to overnight airstrikes that killed several Hamas militants, calling it a "grave escalation." Those were the first rockets Hamas claimed responsibility for since the 2012 cease-fire. The events prior to July 7 suggest that Israel acted to provoke a response from Hamas that could serve as a pretext for launching a military operation in Gaza.

If that does not convince you, consider this: In the first three months following the November 2012 cease-fire, not a single rocket came out of the Palestinian territories. Israel, however, carried out numerous unprovoked attacks and incursions, killing innocent civilians and violating the cease-fire.

(http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/25156-five-misconceptions-about-the-israel-palestine-conflict ).

It is also clear that the Israel leadership has a clear interest in destroying the Gazan economy, forcing the region to become dependent on Israeli products. Chicken farms, cookie factories, sewage treatments, an ice cream factoryall were targets. To prevent the development of an entire territory, and instead enforcing a desperate existence on its populace, is no way to seek peace. (http://truth-out.org/progressivepicks/item/23004-the-economic-destruction-of-gaza )

I am not sure what the way forward would be. But I am pretty sure that the increasingly barbaric attacks on civilian populations will lead to increasing trouble for the state. Would it be too much to expect that wiser heads will eventually gain enough influence to save the people of Israel from the out-of-control actions of its leadership? One would hope not, but at this point, one has to wonder. For a challenging look at myths surrounding the conflict, check out this link: http://www.vox.com/cards/israel-palestine-misconceptions/the-conflict-is-too-complex-to-possibly-understand

Yours is a most excellent post. I differ but deeply appreciate you point of view.

[Steely Dan]

The entire OP is little more than a deliberate diversion. Just as Hamas, Boko Haram, ISIS and Al Qaeda are all cut from the same cloth, so to is the,dilemma facing Israel and the Western world. To obsess about Israel and sanctimoniously preach what she should do is both cowardly and delusional.

The pure evil which is political Islam has again escaped from the bottle in the form of the third Jihad. Whist it may seem superficially tempting for Israel to throw her lot in with the so called Arab plan doing so would be to deal with governments whose own tenure is unstable to say the least, as Egypt recently demonstrated. The leverage Hamas has is political not military, Israel could eliminate them quite easily were it not for a coalition of leftists and Islamists pressurizing Western nations to hold Israel back. Eliminating Hamas and bolstering secular rulers, tyrants if need be, in the Middle East is the only way forward until Islam outgrows it's political aspirations.

[dexterm]

The more Palestinians are killed and maimed by Israel's disproportionate responses to Hamas bombings, the more support for Hamas will grow among the victims of that response; the Palestinians.

What is a "proportionate" response to tens of thousand of rockets over decades and what other country would put up with it?

The military option doesn't seem to have worked. Try some of these instead....

Accept Hamas’s 10 year truce. No recognition [for now], but also no rockets.

IDF stops provocative targeted assassinations

Release of Hamas prisoners arbitrarily arrested

Lift blockade of Gaza. Prosperity makes people less inclined to lose what they have gained.

UN peace keeping force

Serious peace talks without preconditions.

Edited August 17, 2014 by dexterm

[dexterm]

The entire OP is little more than a deliberate diversion. Just as Hamas, Boko Haram, ISIS and Al Qaeda are all cut from the same cloth, so to is the,dilemma facing Israel and the Western world. To obsess about Israel and sanctimoniously preach what she should do is both cowardly and delusional.

The pure evil which is political Islam has again escaped from the bottle in the form of the third Jihad. Whist it may seem superficially tempting for Israel to throw her lot in with the so called Arab plan doing so would be to deal with governments whose own tenure is unstable to say the least, as Egypt recently demonstrated. The leverage Hamas has is political not military, Israel could eliminate them quite easily were it not for a coalition of leftists and Islamists pressurizing Western nations to hold Israel back. Eliminating Hamas and bolstering secular rulers, tyrants if need be, in the Middle East is the only way forward until Islam outgrows it's political aspirations.

Israel would be essentially making peace with the Palestinians. Golan (Syria) and Shebaa Farms(Lebanon) could be negotiated at a later stage, just as Sinai has been dealt with separately. The other Arab countries have no beef with Israel other than the Palestinian issue and some of the holy sites. Peace with all [most] Arab countries would be the icing on the cake..exchange of ambassadors and trade... a huge boost to Israel’s and the world economy.

Time is running out for Israel as far as a 2 state solution is concerned. It may soon find itself inheriting 4 million Palestinians in a one state solution.

Just imagine if Israel had reached a peace agreement years ago; by now it would have had Palestinians pacified and prosperous. Saddam (albeit a monster) would have kept a tight lid on Iraq...no ISIS, no Al Qaeda training ground.

All you are offering is more of the same. It doesn't work..67 dead young Israelis would attest to that. Israel still looking over its shoulder, and still no borders 68 years after its founding.

The best sort of peace is a permanent peace within secure recognized borders.

[goatfarmer]

If Israel really cared about the lives of the palestinians they would set up refugee camps and protect the palestinian civilians whilst they do a full ground invasion of gaza and get rid of Hamas. Instead they are intentionally bombing UN refugee camps and schools and intentionally targeting children (as shown by the children who were killed when they were playing football on the beach). No sane person is saying that Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself, but what it doesn't have a right to do is commit war crimes and massacres of innocent civilian populations.

Again, if Israel would have intentionally target children, there would be 10 of thousands of them

dead by now, Israel is not Boko haram, or ISIS, there will not be humanitarian cease fires,

there will be not electricity, water, fuel and hundreds of supply trucks entering Gaza from Israel,,

They obviously don't want to kill all of them, just kill enough of them to terrorize the Palestinian population into submission. Israel is not like boko haram nor is it a rational country which follows the Geneva convention and the UN rules of war. The Hamas attacks are in no way existential to the existence of Israel, they should be better than this and not bombing UN schools and refugee camps which is unacceptable by any stretch of the imagination. And electricity and water has been cut by the way, the desalination plants and the power plants which power most of Gaza have been destroyed and it will take months to repair and use again. Israel is an irrational acting country.

"They obviously don't want to kill all of them, just kill enough of them to terrorize the Palestinian population into submission."

No need for that. Hamas has done it already.

[dexterm]

I would like to mention that there is a deliberate confusion in this article aimed at confusing the readers.

HAMAS is not Palestinians. Palestinians are not HAMAS. There cannot and never will be any agreement between HAMAS and Israel.

Americans, Egyptians and any other 'mediators' in this conflict are incidental.

Israel has to agree to die or to exterminate HAMAS. No other way to end violence in Gaza. Sorry.

Somehow I doubt Israelis will agree to die collectively to please HAMAS or 'politically correct' Western opinion.

You are so wrong about Hamas.... Hamas is a political party voted into power by the Palestinians of Gaza much to the chagrin of the governments in the area and the world. You will also notice that these wars seem to erupt both by Hamas and Hezbollah during the fair weather seasons. They both are basically cowards preferring only to fire missiles knowing full well the reply will be devastating but opens the doors for more aid and rebuilding which takes everyone's direction away from new tunnel building and new arms shipments with longer range rockets from the world's nefarious arms dealer. Ridiculous uneducated no-minds at work here and the worlds brightest negotiators have to try and talk reason to the BIG STUPID HAMAS

"Ridiculous uneducated no-minds at work here"

[Ulysses G.]

The more Palestinians are killed and maimed by Israel's disproportionate responses to Hamas bombings, the more support for Hamas will grow among the victims of that response; the Palestinians.

What is a "proportionate" response to tens of thousand of rockets over decades and what other country would put up with it?

The military option doesn't seem to have worked. Try some of these instead....

Israel is there and thriving after 66 years. The military option has worked well for them.

It is the Palestinians who have not done so well with the violence they initiated in the first place. It is time for the Arabs to learn from their mistakes and finally sign a peace treaty.

[goatfarmer]

I do not have a rooting interest in this seemingly intractable mess, which I, like many around the world, wish would simply evaporate before more innocents are killed. (Little chance of that...) However, the notion put forward by the OP, that Israel is somehow carefully avoiding all possible collateral damage, seems rather a cruel joke, as the destruction of hospitals, homes, and factories illustrates. I offer this post to point out different views of several aspects of the situation.

People with an open mind who are truly interested in peace will have their doubts about the official narrative promoted by the Israeli government and prominent actors in the Western press. The history of the conflict has vile transgressions by both sides. But if one examines the facts, it seems pretty darn doubtful that the Palestinian side was responsible for this latest round of horror. On the contrary.

“In the recent series of events, Hamas launched its very first rockets on July 7, in retaliation to overnight airstrikes that killed several Hamas militants, calling it a "grave escalation." Those were the first rockets Hamas claimed responsibility for since the 2012 cease-fire. The events prior to July 7 suggest that Israel acted to provoke a response from Hamas that could serve as a pretext for launching a military operation in Gaza….

“If that does not convince you, consider this: In the first three months following the November 2012 cease-fire, not a single rocket came out of the Palestinian territories. Israel, however, carried out numerous unprovoked attacks and incursions, killing innocent civilians and violating the cease-fire.”

(http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/25156-five-misconceptions-about-the-israel-palestine-conflict ).

It is also clear that the Israel leadership has a clear interest in destroying the Gazan economy, forcing the region to become dependent on Israeli products. Chicken farms, cookie factories, sewage treatments, an ice cream factory—all were targets. To prevent the development of an entire territory, and instead enforcing a desperate existence on its populace, is no way to seek peace. (http://truth-out.org/progressivepicks/item/23004-the-economic-destruction-of-gaza )

If Israel provoked the response from Hamas, it wouldn't have been the first time they have used such a tactic. For example in the late seventies the Begin government was alleged to have launched unprovoked attacks on the PLO 'to keep the pressure on them' in the words of Ahron Bregman. But in this case, what would be the strategic benefit?

Why would Israel want to destroy the Gazan economy? That would only create a greater burden on Israel to supply aid.

http://mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/humanitarian/pages/israeli-humanitarian-aid-continues-10-jul-2014.aspx

[Ulysses G.]

But Mr Inbar believes that President Obama cannot undo close Israeli-US ties. The relationship is anchored in a long history and there is lots of domestic American support for Israel. We will survive Obama.

He is correct. Americans support Israel over the Palestinians by a huge margin and both political parties are even more adamant. Obama's feckless foreign policy has to be considered, but he is a lame duck and can not ignore his own democratic party.

[dexterm]

I'm not going to respond to the blind pro-Israelis here. I'm not going to support the blind pro-Palestinians here.

The article makes more sense than anything I've read in years. Give Palestine back to the Palestinians by crippling Hammas diplomatically and in reality. Go the route of the Arab Peace initiative, with Abbas.

All it needs is Israel's agreement.

BUT! Will Israel agree?

The strategy the article talks about is wise. Just need Israel to stop it's criminal activities via this route, and Hammas will come to an end.

..that would leave the Israelis without a country.

All negotiations as far as the Palis are concerned, are in mala fide...just playing for time,

Hamas is only interested in destroying Israel.

Diplomacy is just a ploy.

When Israel was serious about peace with Egypt and Jordan, it got it.

Try the same with the Palestinians, but with your entrenched prejudices please don’t volunteer yourself for the Israeli negotiating team.

Shalom