Who’s at fault, the Worker or the Employer?

[chrisinth]

Throughout the numerous threads of late where a large part of the blame for crackdowns has been directed at the individuals who have been working illegally in Thailand, whether it be teachers or people working in industry, is this actually correct?

 

It has all fallen under immigration issues where in fact this issue should fall under the department of labour.

 

My point of this thread is, who holds the most responsibility here, the individual or the company that is employing them and pays them fully aware that they are breaking the law?

 

Yes, it is clearly understood that the person is breaking the law, but where is the deterrent towards companies who willingly ignore the definitions of employment?

 

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[Mario2008]

Both can be fined.

[ubonjoe]

Both are responsible. But those working are often told they don't need  work permit by a unscrupulous employers.

A employee can be be fined up to 500k baht or spend time in jail and be deported.

The employer up to 100k baht fine per employee.

[glegolo]

Both are responsible. But those working are often told they don't need  work permit by a unscrupulous employers.

A employee can be be fined up to 500k baht or spend time in jail and be deported.

The employer up to 100k baht fine per employee.

Oh great really!!! So the one that supposedly should know the laws of Thailand, the employers, they are geting off the hook with 100K while the

employee´s are getting 500K in fines and maybe jail on top of that...

 

Not easy to be a foreigner here even the laws state that you should be fined more than the locals.... Equality to the law I presume...

 

Glegolo

Edited August 16, 2014 by glegolo

[IMA_FARANG]

 Unfortunately there is no law against a Thai employer offering a job to a foreigner who has no work permit.

Therefore by offering that job, they do nothing illegal.

However, the foreigner who accepts the job does break the law by working for the person who offered them a job with no work permit.

No, that's not "fair", but the person who offers the job often has money to hire, but the person who needs the job may not have the money to refuse the illegally offered job.

In the same way, Prostitution is technically illegal in Thailand.

But does the guy in a bar who offers money to a bargirl  for a "short time" get arrested if he is caught with her in a hotel room.

No.

It is the same thing ...... if you have money there is no "crime".

It's always the poor who go to jail for doing something "wrong".

 

So it goes.

It's always been like that, and not only in Thailand.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2014 by IMA_FARANG

[ubonjoe]

 

Both are responsible. But those working are often told they don't need  work permit by a unscrupulous employers.

A employee can be be fined up to 500k baht or spend time in jail and be deported.

The employer up to 100k baht fine per employee.

Oh great really!!! So the one that supposedly should know the laws of Thailand, the employers, they are geting off the hook with 100K while the

employee´s are getting 500K in fines and maybe jail on top of that...

 

Not easy to be a foreigner here even the laws state that you should be fined more than the locals.... Equality to the law I presume...

 

Glegolo

 

You have to remember that in Thailand like many other countries big companies have a lot of influence on how the laws are written.

The 500k is the max fine for the employee but most get off with a 10k to 20k baht fine and then leave voluntarily.

[chrisinth]

 Unfortunately there is no law against a Thai employer offering a job to a foreigner who has no work permit.

Therefore by offering that job, they do nothing illegal.

However, the foreigner who accepts the job does break the law by working for the person who offered them a job with no work permit.

No, that's not "fair", but the person who offers the job often has money to hire, but the person who needs the job may not have the money to refuse the illegally offered job.

In the same way, Prostitution is technically illegal in Thailand.

But does the guy in a bar who offers money to a bargirl  for a "short time" get arrested if he is caught with her in a hotel room.

No.

It is the same thing ...... if you have money there is no "crime".

It's always the poor who go to jail for doing something "wrong".

 

So it goes.

It's always been like that, and not only in Thailand.

 

 

 

I would disagree with that if my understanding is correct. The work permit is the responsibility of the employer, not the individual as the work permit is issued for that particular company and the role the individual will take in said company..

[eldragon]

A question worth asking here is "Why do some employers neglect to obtain work permits for their employees?" I'm not sure if it's a financial issue or just laziness. Maybe some employers don't want to do the legwork for someone they see as short-term. I've never had an issue (other than time) getting one out of an employer. There was an instance where I was only working part-time and the employer (a private company) asked me to pay for the work permit until I went full-time. That seemed fair. I had another situation where a school didn't want to process my work permit until I passed a probationary period. I offered to pay for the work permit with the understanding I'd get paid back after probation, but they wouldn't go for it. So who knows.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand Edited August 16, 2014 by eldragon

[ubonjoe]

Most companies (businesses) that don't get the work permit done cannot get one because they cannot meet the requirements. Some are just a business without the proper registration done.

An example is a lot of English and tutoring schools that are not even registered with the MOE.

[FritsSikkink]

 

Both are responsible. But those working are often told they don't need  work permit by a unscrupulous employers.

A employee can be be fined up to 500k baht or spend time in jail and be deported.

The employer up to 100k baht fine per employee.

 

 

Not easy to be a foreigner here even the laws state that you should be fined more than the locals.... Equality to the law I presume...

 

Glegolo

 

The foreign employee doesn't get fined more than the Thai employee.

It is about employee vs employer. 

[Chillout101]

Many burmese get their WP through agents that have connections to companies in Thailand. They pay 3-4k Bath a year for the WP but never set a foot inside the company that issued the WP papers for them. It is all just another way to skim money from immigrant workers.

[digitalchromakey]

Many burmese get their WP through agents that have connections to companies in Thailand. They pay 3-4k Bath a year for the WP but never set a foot inside the company that issued the WP papers for them. It is all just another way to skim money from immigrant workers.

The reality is that If Burmese Workers are caught with the wrong (or even old)  company name on their work permits, then they are subject to detention, fine and even possible deportation.

 

Usually, it's the Police who benefit the most as they just use this fact to extort money from the actual employer (often paid on a monthly basis, so business can continue 'as normal').

Edited August 16, 2014 by digitalchromakey

[digitalchromakey]

 

 

Both are responsible. But those working are often told they don't need  work permit by a unscrupulous employers.

A employee can be be fined up to 500k baht or spend time in jail and be deported.

The employer up to 100k baht fine per employee.

Oh great really!!! So the one that supposedly should know the laws of Thailand, the employers, they are geting off the hook with 100K while the

employee´s are getting 500K in fines and maybe jail on top of that...

 

Not easy to be a foreigner here even the laws state that you should be fined more than the locals.... Equality to the law I presume...

 

Glegolo

 

You have to remember that in Thailand like many other countries big companies have a lot of influence on how the laws are written.

The 500k is the max fine for the employee but most get off with a 10k to 20k baht fine and then leave voluntarily.

 

This is the big difference, the maximum fine is much smaller for employers than employees, but it's the employee alone who faces arrest, detention and deportation.

[wayned]

IMHO the current crackdown by immigration on back to back visa exempt entries is just another “knee-jerk” reaction.  It is an attempt to correct a problem by eliminating the effect rather than the cause.  If the cause is people who are working illegally and the companies that they are working for, then the BIB should mount an active campaign to fix the problem.  By eliminating back to back visa exempt entries immigration is only shifting more of the problem to back to back entries on other types of visas and working illegally on extensions.  Once immigration wakes up to what is happening there how will they attempt to correct the new problem that they created by not having the appropriate authorities address the problem, people working illegally!  Most likely not and the people who are here legally will suffer due to the abuse by others.

[glegolo]

 

 

Both are responsible. But those working are often told they don't need  work permit by a unscrupulous employers.

A employee can be be fined up to 500k baht or spend time in jail and be deported.

The employer up to 100k baht fine per employee.

 

 

Not easy to be a foreigner here even the laws state that you should be fined more than the locals.... Equality to the law I presume...

 

Glegolo

 

The foreign employee doesn't get fined more than the Thai employee.

It is about employee vs employer. 

 

Ahaaa, so you mean that a thai employee needs a work permit than, and if he doesn´t

have one, he will gets fined exactly in the same manner as me as a foreigner....Interesting??

 

Glegolo

[Tomtomtom69]

A question worth asking here is "Why do some employers neglect to obtain work permits for their employees?" I'm not sure if it's a financial issue or just laziness. Maybe some employers don't want to do the legwork for someone they see as short-term. I've never had an issue (other than time) getting one out of an employer. There was an instance where I was only working part-time and the employer (a private company) asked me to pay for the work permit until I went full-time. That seemed fair. I had another situation where a school didn't want to process my work permit until I passed a probationary period. I offered to pay for the work permit with the understanding I'd get paid back after probation, but they wouldn't go for it. So who knows.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

I would never accept employment from a company/school etc. that couldn't get me legal (and since working for a couple of different companies here they always made me legal). The whole work permit business doesn't cost them that much financially. Mostly it's just laziness or (perceived) lack of ability to go down the work permit route because HR or the school administrators don't know and couldn't be bothered checking what the requirements are to hire a foreigner. They probably just think it should all be the responsibility of the employee to know and take care of.

 

I agree that offering to pay for a work permit is a good idea, if necessary. While I don't like the idea of an employer having to force me to bear all expenses in relation to visa and work permit issuance etc. unfortunately this is the way things are going these days. The old 'hire em abroad and give them all the perks of an expat expense package complete with flights to/from home country, villa, car (with driver), expense account, super duper health insurance with evacuation in case of emergency, international schooling for expat children, all visas and work permit issues paid for and likely done with minimal presence of the expat and of course a sky high salary in line with western/Japanese salaries rather than Thai ones are becoming a thing of the past. Companies can't afford that anymore and why should they? Plenty of highly skilled locals, many (I dare say most) with more education (Master's, PhDs etc. rather than just Bachelor's) than many westerners is fast becoming the standard these days. Therefore, expat packages like I've described, in Thailand are just about dead. So the only way to compete with a local who has a Master's degree from Stamford, 8 years of management experience and can work for 70,000 Baht a month is by accepting a decent (but not sky high) salary (probably similar to said local), good local or expat insurance (which may have some coverage limits but is pretty decent overall), and all relocation costs, housing etc. borne by the employee. Basically you'd be working on a package just like the average John Smith back home or Somchai in Thailand - a local package which would be commensurate with the industry and position you are going for.

 

These days even larger companies are refusing to pay for flights/bus tickets, accommodation etc. to neighboring countries for visas. They are only supplying the paperwork and then might pay for a work permit, which only costs a few thousand Baht anyway, pocket change for any company really, but that's about it.

 

But I think I'd much rather have a company willing to hire a foreigner, who asks the employee to bear all visa/travel and work permit costs themselves because otherwise the illegal route or the doors closed to foreigners remain the only other alternatives.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Tomtomtom69

[joepattaya1961]

Most companies (businesses) that don't get the work permit done cannot get one because they cannot meet the requirements. Some are just a business without the proper registration done.

An example is a lot of English and tutoring schools that are not even registered with the MOE.

Another important reason are the documents the employer has to produce: organization-sheet, balance-sheet, number of employees, prove that they have paid income-taxes and social security for ALL of their employees, etc............Thai employers don't like to let others watch in their kitchen. 

[duanebigsby]

IMHO the current crackdown by immigration on back to back visa exempt entries is just another “knee-jerk” reaction.  It is an attempt to correct a problem by eliminating the effect rather than the cause.  If the cause is people who are working illegally and the companies that they are working for, then the BIB should mount an active campaign to fix the problem.  By eliminating back to back visa exempt entries immigration is only shifting more of the problem to back to back entries on other types of visas and working illegally on extensions.  Once immigration wakes up to what is happening there how will they attempt to correct the new problem that they created by not having the appropriate authorities address the problem, people working illegally!  Most likely not and the people who are here legally will suffer due to the abuse by others.

 

I half agree with you. It doesn't address the issue of businesses not providing the paperwork for proper visa.  Many illegal workers used the back to backs to stay here. To eliminate it does weed out some illegals without causing too many others harm.

I think this crackdown is just a step to eliminate corruption, or give the appearance of that.

[SOTIRIOS]

...the foreigner, of course....

[NomadJoe]

Both are responsible. But those working are often told they don't need  work permit by a unscrupulous employers.

A employee can be be fined up to 500k baht or spend time in jail and be deported.

The employer up to 100k baht fine per employee.

 

And how about employers that require a WP to be kept in a safe in the office when the employee works in other locations as well.

[Mario2008]

The work permit belongs to the employee. The requirement is that you must be able to show it when asked for during your work.

[Bangel72]

I'm not really sure the blame question is a positive step forward, I'd much prefer that work permits were more straight forward or that freelance workers could get them without the larger business investment.

 

My own experience is that the onus has always been with the company and I've ensured job contracts include clarity on this but I also have interests in the greyer thai owned business market that will hire foreigners on a daily basis, I use the term hire very loosely because it's often a case of A pays company B a fee to find C people for a job, company B then gives C a percentage of their fee. Whilst everything is declared for tax purposes, contracts are in place I am not actually sure who C is employed by and it's most likely viewed that they are self employed that therefore liable both as employee and company for having work permits.

 

Both the tourist and the arts elements within Thailand are actively encouraging more international films and tv to come to Thailand but are they making it possible for these companies to legally find background actors for a few hours work?

[connda]

Working without a WP can:

Land you in jail;

Get you deported;

Dock you with a substantial fine.

 

The employer is on the hook for a 20K fine - maybe.

 

It's not about 'fault'.  It's about risk.  Virtually all the risk falls on the worker.

[connda]

Both are responsible. But those working are often told they don't need  work permit by a unscrupulous employers.

A employee can be be fined up to 500k baht or spend time in jail and be deported.

The employer up to 100k baht fine per employee.

 

Very disparate deterrents.  Now, if the risks were equalize and the employer was on the hook for a 500K fine and jail time, the practice of hiring foreigner without a WP would stop. 

 

But Thai employers hold enough sway on MPs in parliament that the law will never change.  It's all "wink wink, nod nod" for the employer.  Tea money to look the other way for those charged with enforcement.  It's a nice set up for shake-downs and corruption.  Welcome to the LOS.
 

[biggles45]

From my reading on the situation a lot of the problem is the cost/time required for an employer to get a WP.

If the Government and Immigration really want to stamp out illegal workers, why they dont just change the department of labour laws to make it easier, and cheaper to get one?

Or would that be too logical?

[antsrule]

Both are responsible. But those working are often told they don't need  work permit by a unscrupulous employers.
A employee can be be fined up to 500k baht or spend time in jail and be deported.
The employer up to 100k baht fine per employee.

Right, I had a work permit from my first employer an international school. I left at the end of one year and took a job through an agency with the promise of less onsite hours. My work permit expired after the first semester of the second school. I was told by the agency that my work permit would carry over as long as I was a teacher. Well the hours they told me were class hours not onsite hours and my work permit was not valid. I got the maximum overstay, 20,000 baht plus a young<removed> immigration officer and the agency got off without a problem. New teachers need to be able to depend on agencies especially when there are so many regulations and seemingly ad hoc interpretations. Agencies or direct employ schools must be held responsible for their teachers.

Edited August 17, 2014 by ubonjoe
Removed derogatory word

[GAZZPA]

Actually I think immigration are to blame.

 

The reason why is that the laws have not been enforced for so long that they have allowed a culture to emerge of abuse of the system. That abuse comes from both sides, companies and employees.

 

The real issue now is the consequences of going from lapse to strict enforcement. I have seen discussions where some people believe that there will be a very real shortage of English teachers in Thailand once the law is enforced properly. I would be inclined to agree with that as I am aware of people on tourist visas who are employed by schools but cannot get work permits from them.

 

So, whichever way you look at it Thailand created its own problem.

[eldragon]

Both are responsible. But those working are often told they don't need  work permit by a unscrupulous employers.
A employee can be be fined up to 500k baht or spend time in jail and be deported.
The employer up to 100k baht fine per employee.

 
And how about employers that require a WP to be kept in a safe in the office when the employee works in other locations as well.

I might be mistaken, but I think the WP is "supposed to" stay at your place of employment.

The process is a bit of the problem as well. It's very difficult to switch jobs here without having to leave the country. I'm sure many of the people here on short term assignments or teaching gigs find it easier to get by on a tourist visa and cash payments. What this place could really go for is some kind of freelance visa. That way people can work multiple jobs and pay their taxes independently.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[digitalchromakey]

 

 

Both are responsible. But those working are often told they don't need  work permit by a unscrupulous employers.
A employee can be be fined up to 500k baht or spend time in jail and be deported.
The employer up to 100k baht fine per employee.

 
And how about employers that require a WP to be kept in a safe in the office when the employee works in other locations as well.

I might be mistaken, but I think the WP is "supposed to" stay at your place of employment.

The process is a bit of the problem as well. It's very difficult to switch jobs here without having to leave the country. I'm sure many of the people here on short term assignments or teaching gigs find it easier to get by on a tourist visa and cash payments. What this place could really go for is some kind of freelance visa. That way people can work multiple jobs and pay their taxes independently.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

 

Item 1 on page 31 at the back of the  WP 4. Work Permit States:

 

 

A permit holder must keep the permit with him at the place of work during working hours in order that it may be readily shown to the competent official or the Registrar. any violation thereof shall be liable to a fine not exceeding one thousand baht.

 

Crystal clear, requirement is for the WP to be with the holder at the place of work during working hours.

[richard10365]

Controlling migration is a science. I think the "crack down" has less to do with who was right or wrong and more to do with finding the best imported labor to supplement the labor force at the lowest cost. Since Thailand is listed near the bottom in English proficiency, I don't think Thai officials are worried anymore on the impact western teachers are making. Whether or not it is the fault of the western teacher or not, ASEAN teachers fluent in English are a less costly alternative to the current batch of teachers who are not making a difference in Thailand ability to speak English better than in other countries. Properly positioned imported labor could really benefit Thailand. Ad hoc labor shortage solutions will do the opposite.