Who’s at fault, the Worker or the Employer?

[beechguy]

 

Both are responsible. But those working are often told they don't need  work permit by a unscrupulous employers.

A employee can be be fined up to 500k baht or spend time in jail and be deported.

The employer up to 100k baht fine per employee.

Oh great really!!! So the one that supposedly should know the laws of Thailand, the employers, they are geting off the hook with 100K while the

employee´s are getting 500K in fines and maybe jail on top of that...

 

Not easy to be a foreigner here even the laws state that you should be fined more than the locals.... Equality to the law I presume...

 

Glegolo

 

 

Pretty simple really, if these people would quit being willing participants in something illegal, they would probably see an improvement in wages and working conditions.

 

No work permit, and proper visa, no work.

[USNret]

All parties involved (employer, employee, govt) have historically collaborated to break the law and/or "look the other way".  Now the game has changed -- in that the rules are being enforced. I don't see the point of the OP in trying to allocate or assess fault.  You alone are responsible for your actions; what those around you do is both outside your control & not your concern.

 

I would expect that anyone lining up to teach English knows they need the right visa & a work permit.  What others around them are willing to do (other teachers and employers) is immaterial).  Do what is right and you have nothing to worry about. Don't play this game of trying to figure out who is more wrong than whom.  It sounds like prostitutes arguing among them who is most chaste. 

[TheKnave]

IMHO the current crackdown by immigration on back to back visa exempt entries is just another knee-jerk reaction.  It is an attempt to correct a problem by eliminating the effect rather than the cause.  If the cause is people who are working illegally and the companies that they are working for, then the BIB should mount an active campaign to fix the problem.  By eliminating back to back visa exempt entries immigration is only shifting more of the problem to back to back entries on other types of visas and working illegally on extensions.  Once immigration wakes up to what is happening there how will they attempt to correct the new problem that they created by not having the appropriate authorities address the problem, people working illegally!  Most likely not and the people who are here legally will suffer due to the abuse by others.

It's patently and painfully obvious that catching and preventing farangs working illegally is nothing more than a pretext. As you so astutely point out, it should be a matter for the Ministry of Labor. Scratch the surface, and what you see is pent-up resentment and, dare I say, jealousy, given righteous venting by all the Immigration officials, as evidenced by their stridency, and their inability to even wait for the official cutoff dates.

For years it was relatively easy to get all these issues sorted the Thai way: a token backhander, and all was smiles. Lately, increasingly, the infectious self-righteousness of the West has begun to create pressure, and the IOs can no longer supplement their salaries as before. So, instead of the smile, it's a mean face, and obfuscation, impromptu language tests, untoward comments to applicants, etc.

It doesn't help that many retirees try to recreate old Blighty, complaining about the way things had been done here for so many years.

Finally, the authorities have begun to take notice of what's being said on forums like this one. It's no wonder they resent us, having read how many people cheat, denigrate, and disrespect the prevalent system in their chosen retirement home. People who were losers at home, coming to Thailand because they thought it was cheap, but without any understanding of the culture, or any intention to learn about it.

I would not be surprised if the current open hostility toward foreigners comes from, or at least is condoned by, the very top.

All those moralists who think they know what's best for Thailand, are just so much fuel on the fire.

I doubt things will get better for expats any time soon.

[Thai at Heart]

IMHO the current crackdown by immigration on back to back visa exempt entries is just another knee-jerk reaction.  It is an attempt to correct a problem by eliminating the effect rather than the cause.  If the cause is people who are working illegally and the companies that they are working for, then the BIB should mount an active campaign to fix the problem.  By eliminating back to back visa exempt entries immigration is only shifting more of the problem to back to back entries on other types of visas and working illegally on extensions.  Once immigration wakes up to what is happening there how will they attempt to correct the new problem that they created by not having the appropriate authorities address the problem, people working illegally!  Most likely not and the people who are here legally will suffer due to the abuse by others.

It's patently and painfully obvious that catching and preventing farangs working illegally is nothing more than a pretext. As you so astutely point out, it should be a matter for the Ministry of Labor. Scratch the surface, and what you see is pent-up resentment and, dare I say, jealousy, given righteous venting by all the Immigration officials, as evidenced by their stridency, and their inability to even wait for the official cutoff dates.

For years it was relatively easy to get all these issues sorted the Thai way: a token backhander, and all was smiles. Lately, increasingly, the infectious self-righteousness of the West has begun to create pressure, and the IOs can no longer supplement their salaries as before. So, instead of the smile, it's a mean face, and obfuscation, impromptu language tests, untoward comments to applicants, etc.

It doesn't help that many retirees try to recreate old Blighty, complaining about the way things had been done here for so many years.

Finally, the authorities have begun to take notice of what's being said on forums like this one. It's no wonder they resent us, having read how many people cheat, denigrate, and disrespect the prevalent system in their chosen retirement home. People who were losers at home, coming to Thailand because they thought it was cheap, but without any understanding of the culture, or any intention to learn about it.

I would not be surprised if the current open hostility toward foreigners comes from, or at least is condoned by, the very top.

All those moralists who think they know what's best for Thailand, are just so much fuel on the fire.

I doubt things will get better for expats any time soon.

Thailand is accused of people trafficking, slavery, money laundering and had people with fake passport turn up on MH 370.

And you wonder why they are having to clean up visas and work permits.

The rest of the world has finally told Thailand enough is enough. Clean it up. And so it starts.immigration is basically a complete joke.

In times past you paid you got and so the islands filled up with drug smugglers and russsian Mafia washing money in the billions.

It had to end.

[paz]

 

Thailand is accused of people trafficking, slavery, money laundering and had people with fake passport turn up on MH 370.

And you wonder why they are having to clean up visas and work permits.

The rest of the world has finally told Thailand enough is enough. Clean it up. And so it starts.immigration is basically a complete joke.

In times past you paid you got and so the islands filled up with drug smugglers and russsian Mafia washing money in the billions.

It had to end.

 

It had? Nothing has changed. True criminals don't do visa runs. Regular people still do.

[TheKnave]

 Thailand is accused of people trafficking, slavery, money laundering and had people with fake passport turn up on MH 370.

And you wonder why they are having to clean up visas and work permits.

The rest of the world has finally told Thailand enough is enough. Clean it up. And so it starts.immigration is basically a complete joke.

In times past you paid you got and so the islands filled up with drug smugglers and russsian Mafia washing money in the billions.

It had to end.

 
It had? Nothing has changed. True criminals don't do visa runs. Regular people still do.

Exactly.

[Doc46]

 

Both are responsible. But those working are often told they don't need  work permit by a unscrupulous employers.

A employee can be be fined up to 500k baht or spend time in jail and be deported.

The employer up to 100k baht fine per employee.

Oh great really!!! So the one that supposedly should know the laws of Thailand, the employers, they are geting off the hook with 100K while the

employee´s are getting 500K in fines and maybe jail on top of that...

 

Not easy to be a foreigner here even the laws state that you should be fined more than the locals.... Equality to the law I presume...

 

Glegolo

 

Hey Gigolo,,,Do things right thing, get a WP if they say you don't need that tell them to shove it and go elsewhere.

[jjablonsky]

A big part of the problem lies in the dissemination of information.  Many companies and schools have no idea of the paperwork or how to even go about hiring a foreign worker in the first place.

Just a quick example here: 

I recently did a job for one of the local govt. offices here.  It was teaching their staff and some local province leaders some rudimentary English skills.  It was a short term assignment English language development for their ASEAN preparation.  A teacher's license was not needed as I was not teaching in a school.  But still the correct visa and work permit were required.  It took them more than five months to get it together. 

Granted some of it may be due to the different govt. in place between the time they offered me the job and when the job was to actually start.  The money was part of some type of grant or something put in place by the previous govt.  The local office was not actually paying me. 

They had no idea of how to actually hire me after they came and asked me if I would teach the staff.  They finally went to the school I had worked for and had to ask them how to obtain my permit and what paperwork was needed. 

In my case I had to cancel one permit and obtain another.  As I already had a contract and permit for another school.  Yes they talked to the school about letting me teach for them for a short term.

Even when all was said and done it was still a cluster f*/k.  Now keep in mind I was teaching late afternoons and evenings to adults at 2 different local govt. offices not a school.

But the contract they gave me was a standard teacher contract.  It had all the standard teacher stuff like arriving at 7:30, Greeting students, staying until 3:45, reside on the school grounds in the school provided house and if one was not available I would be given additional compensation for rent, etc... etc... 

The amount of paperwork for such a short term assignment was ludicrous and unnecessary but I complied anyway, the pay was good and it was an nice 3 months.

 

They wound up with 6 passport photos, 4 complete copies of every page in my passport, 4 copies of the contract, several copies of house book, copies of bank statements, marriage license and more.  And yes of course I had to sign every copy of everything.  I never submitted so much paperwork before, and don’t know what it was all for, didn’t need it all to obtain the visa or work permit.  Who knows what they do with it or where it winds up.

 

[digitalchromakey]

A big part of the problem lies in the dissemination of information.  Many companies and schools have no idea of the paperwork or how to even go about hiring a foreign worker in the first place.

Just a quick example here: 

I recently did a job for one of the local govt. offices here.  It was teaching their staff and some local province leaders some rudimentary English skills.  It was a short term assignment English language development for their ASEAN preparation.  A teacher's license was not needed as I was not teaching in a school.  But still the correct visa and work permit were required.  It took them more than five months to get it together. 

Granted some of it may be due to the different govt. in place between the time they offered me the job and when the job was to actually start.  The money was part of some type of grant or something put in place by the previous govt.  The local office was not actually paying me. 

They had no idea of how to actually hire me after they came and asked me if I would teach the staff.  They finally went to the school I had worked for and had to ask them how to obtain my permit and what paperwork was needed. 

In my case I had to cancel one permit and obtain another.  As I already had a contract and permit for another school.  Yes they talked to the school about letting me teach for them for a short term.

Even when all was said and done it was still a cluster f*/k.  Now keep in mind I was teaching late afternoons and evenings to adults at 2 different local govt. offices not a school.

But the contract they gave me was a standard teacher contract.  It had all the standard teacher stuff like arriving at 7:30, Greeting students, staying until 3:45, reside on the school grounds in the school provided house and if one was not available I would be given additional compensation for rent, etc... etc... 

The amount of paperwork for such a short term assignment was ludicrous and unnecessary but I complied anyway, the pay was good and it was an nice 3 months.

 

They wound up with 6 passport photos, 4 complete copies of every page in my passport, 4 copies of the contract, several copies of house book, copies of bank statements, marriage license and more.  And yes of course I had to sign every copy of everything.  I never submitted so much paperwork before, and don’t know what it was all for, didn’t need it all to obtain the visa or work permit.  Who knows what they do with it or where it winds up.

 

Once at my local Labour Department I saw several staff from the WP section loading mountains of bundled paper/files onto what I recollect was an open truck, I have no idea where the truck was destined, but being open it must have been somewhere local and labour only have one office that I know of in Phuket.

 

So my assumption is that they were probably gong to sell the paper for re-cycling - so I guess the more paperwork they receive, the more money they will get for the 'annual staff party'

Edited August 17, 2014 by digitalchromakey

[Thai at Heart]

 Thailand is accused of people trafficking, slavery, money laundering and had people with fake passport turn up on MH 370.

And you wonder why they are having to clean up visas and work permits.

The rest of the world has finally told Thailand enough is enough. Clean it up. And so it starts.immigration is basically a complete joke.

In times past you paid you got and so the islands filled up with drug smugglers and russsian Mafia washing money in the billions.

It had to end.

 
It had? Nothing has changed. True criminals don't do visa runs. Regular people still do.

So they are overstaying then. People are being trafficked through Thailand every day on bogus passports and stamps every day.

First thing for Thailand to have done was to put the system back in order and get the bloody system up to date with who is in country and who isn't. Grandfather them in with the threat of expulsion.

There are people on here with 11 year overstay. Next I have a feeling they will start reforming the system with visa changes.